4589RE: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
- Nov 13, 2007*******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
"The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
through spiritual science."
The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development.
But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?Duward,
You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
turning toward spiritual science?
The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
should experience what is required.
If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
cultural development as much either, what do you think?
--- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
> ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
many types of blood, for instance.
> Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
that races as we have known them will become of less and less
importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
> So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
need for endogamy is long over.
> For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
> As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
> To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
> The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
(Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
Thanks in advance,Chris.
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