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4317Re: Western tradition of reincarnation?

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  • carynlouise
    May 7, 2007
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      Hi everyone, hope you are all well. I took a break 'twas nice. Also
      change my sign in name from pathsunflower (thought it a bit long, the
      name that is not the path!!)

      Nice topic; reincarnation is a subject I have been studying in the
      Bible. Appreciated your post Matthew and comments on Luke 16.

      Here's my study todate - it's a bit long as I also include Steiner to
      go with it;

      Reincarnation in the Bible-

      St Matthew 17v10-13
      10: And his disciples, asked him saying, Why then say the scribes
      that Elias must first come?
      11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first
      come, and restore all things.
      12: But I say unto you that Elias is come already, and they knew him
      not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall
      also the Son of Man suffer of them.
      13: Then his disciples understood that he spake unto them of John
      the Baptist.

      Genesis 50:25
      And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will
      surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

      Exodus 13:19
      And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly
      sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and
      ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

      To me this is saying Joseph is Moses and Moses is Joseph:

      Joseph (Jacob's son) born 1761 BC and died:
      Exodus 1:6 : 'And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that
      generation'.

      448 years later Moses was born 1313 BC.

      Steiner says the period between earthly lives is about 500 years. In
      Exodus Moses is carrying Joseph's bones (literally within himself)
      out of Egypt.

      St John 3:3 `Unless a man be born again he cannot enter into the
      kingdom of Heaven' - literal straight forward meaning.

      1 Peter 1:23 `As ye sow, so shall ye reap'

      Others as well: Matthew 13, Job 14:7, 1 Corinthians 15, Isaiah 55:13

      And now we read-

      St John 5:19
      19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
      unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the
      Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son
      likewise.
      20: For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that
      himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye
      may marvel.
      21: For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even
      so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
      22: For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment
      unto the Son:
      23: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the
      Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which
      hath sent him.
      24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
      believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not
      come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
      25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
      when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that
      hear shall live.
      26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the
      Son to have life in himself;
      27: And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because
      he is the Son of man.
      28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that
      are in the graves shall hear his voice,
      29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
      resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
      resurrection of damnation.

      I think it is from verse 25 which needs understanding in relation to
      reincarnation –

      There are similar passages in the Bible; when Jesus died on the cross
      there was a solar eclipse that lasted for three hours and people rose
      from the grave and went into the Holy City of Jerusalem.

      Does verse 24 give us understanding of the parables spoken on
      reincarnation?

      Rudolf Steiner

      Reincarnation and Karma
      The Human soul as formal unity, as connecting Ego, returns in new
      human bodies and is thus enabled to pass through all the stages of
      human evolution.

      This is the content of the Law of Karma which says: all my talents
      and deeds in my present life do not exist separately as a miracle,
      but they are connected as effect with the previous forms of existence
      of my soul and as cause with future ones.

      Christianity as a Mystical Fact
      Heraclitus does extend this characterization to man: "Living and dead
      are the same and so are waking and sleeping, youth and age. For the
      one in changing becomes the other, and the other, changing, again
      becomes the one."

      Full cognition of the illusory character of the lower personality is
      expressed in this sentence. He speaks of this even more
      forcibly: "There is life and death in our life, just as in our
      death." What does this mean except that life can be valued more
      highly than death only when seen from the point of view of the
      transitory.

      Death is decay to make room for new life, but the eternal lives in
      the new life as in the old. The same eternal appears in transitory
      life as in death. When man has grasped this eternal he looks upon
      death with the same feelings as he looks upon life. Only if he is
      unable to awaken this eternal within himself does life have a special
      value for him. The sentence, "Everything is in a state of flux" may
      be trotted out a thousand times, but if it is not spoken with a
      feeling for this content it is void of meaning. Cognition of eternal
      creation is valueless if it does not cancel out our dependence upon
      earthly creation. Heraclitus means to repudiate the lust for life
      which presses after transitory things with the saying, "How shall we
      say of our daily life: `we are,' when we know that from the
      standpoint of the eternal: `we are and we are not.'" (Heraclitus,
      Fragment No. 81)

      "But Hades is the same as Dionysus," states another of the Fragments
      of Heraclitus. Dionysus, the god of lust for life, of germination and
      growth, to whom the Dionysian festivals were dedicated, is for
      Heraclitus the same as Hades, the god of annihilation and destruction.

      Only one who sees life within death and death within life, and in
      both the eternal which is infinitely above life and death, his gaze
      alone can behold in the right light the disadvantages and advantages
      of existence. Then the disadvantages find their justification, for
      the eternal lives in them also. What they appear to be from the
      standpoint of the limited lower life is only illusory: "For men to
      get all they wish is not the better thing. It is disease that makes
      health a pleasant thing; evil, good; hunger, surfeit; and toil,
      rest." "Sea water is the most pure and the most polluted; for fishes
      it is drinkable and salutary, but for men it is undrinkable and
      deleterious."

      If we apply this to the spiritual world we have the thought of
      Heraclitus: "Immortals take on mortality, mortals immortality; death
      is the eternal life of mortals, earthly life the death of immortals."

      God has descended into the world of things. Whoever receives these
      things without God receives them seriously as the "Tombs of God." He
      should play with them like a child and employ his seriousness to draw
      out of them the God who sleeps spellbound within.

      Thus we understand Plato's words: "Whoever goes uninitiated and
      unsanctified to the other world will lie in the mire, but he who
      arrives there initiated and purified will dwell with the gods."

      And the heavenly bodies move according to the laws he has
      established. From this it follows immediately that the functions of
      the human soul are not a force apart from the rest of the cosmos, but
      that these functions are the expression of a law-abiding pattern
      which is interwoven with the cosmos. The Pythagorean said to himself:
      The senses show material phenomena to man. But they do not show the
      harmonious patterns which the objects obey. Rather, the spirit of man
      must first find these harmonious patterns within himself if he wishes
      to behold them outside in the cosmos.

      The deeper sense of the cosmos, that which reigns in it as eternal
      law-abiding necessity, becomes apparent as a present reality in the
      human soul. In the soul the meaning of the cosmos dawns. This meaning
      does not lie in what is seen, heard and touched, but in what the soul
      brings forth from its deep recesses into the light of day. The
      eternal pattern therefore lies hidden in the depths of the soul. Let
      us descend into the soul, and we shall find the eternal. God, the
      eternal cosmic harmony, is within the human soul. The soul is not
      confined to the physical body enclosed by man's skin. For in the soul
      are born the patterns according to which the worlds circle in space.
      ~~

      So with this in my understanding of St. John's 5; the dead in the
      graves are not dead and the graves are spiritual realms .. outside
      the Holy City .. through repeated earth lives, through the 12
      patterns of the Zodiac, growing closer to Christ do we enter the Holy
      City? This is; the closer we become with Christ in repeated earth
      lives the better our spiritual lives are between earthly lives. This
      betterment may be an awakening to the full or whole pattern each time
      we enter the realms between earthly lives and the whole pattern is
      the Holy City.

      My thoughts on this hefty subject – what do you think?

      My regards
      Caryn
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