4317Re: Western tradition of reincarnation?
- May 7, 2007Hi everyone, hope you are all well. I took a break 'twas nice. Also
change my sign in name from pathsunflower (thought it a bit long, the
name that is not the path!!)
Nice topic; reincarnation is a subject I have been studying in the
Bible. Appreciated your post Matthew and comments on Luke 16.
Here's my study todate - it's a bit long as I also include Steiner to
go with it;
Reincarnation in the Bible-
St Matthew 17v10-13
10: And his disciples, asked him saying, Why then say the scribes
that Elias must first come?
11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first
come, and restore all things.
12: But I say unto you that Elias is come already, and they knew him
not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall
also the Son of Man suffer of them.
13: Then his disciples understood that he spake unto them of John
And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will
surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly
sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and
ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
To me this is saying Joseph is Moses and Moses is Joseph:
Joseph (Jacob's son) born 1761 BC and died:
Exodus 1:6 : 'And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that
448 years later Moses was born 1313 BC.
Steiner says the period between earthly lives is about 500 years. In
Exodus Moses is carrying Joseph's bones (literally within himself)
out of Egypt.
St John 3:3 `Unless a man be born again he cannot enter into the
kingdom of Heaven' - literal straight forward meaning.
1 Peter 1:23 `As ye sow, so shall ye reap'
Others as well: Matthew 13, Job 14:7, 1 Corinthians 15, Isaiah 55:13
And now we read-
St John 5:19
19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the
Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son
20: For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that
himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye
21: For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even
so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22: For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment
unto the Son:
23: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the
Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which
hath sent him.
24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not
come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that
hear shall live.
26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the
Son to have life in himself;
27: And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because
he is the Son of man.
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that
are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
I think it is from verse 25 which needs understanding in relation to
There are similar passages in the Bible; when Jesus died on the cross
there was a solar eclipse that lasted for three hours and people rose
from the grave and went into the Holy City of Jerusalem.
Does verse 24 give us understanding of the parables spoken on
Reincarnation and Karma
The Human soul as formal unity, as connecting Ego, returns in new
human bodies and is thus enabled to pass through all the stages of
This is the content of the Law of Karma which says: all my talents
and deeds in my present life do not exist separately as a miracle,
but they are connected as effect with the previous forms of existence
of my soul and as cause with future ones.
Christianity as a Mystical Fact
Heraclitus does extend this characterization to man: "Living and dead
are the same and so are waking and sleeping, youth and age. For the
one in changing becomes the other, and the other, changing, again
becomes the one."
Full cognition of the illusory character of the lower personality is
expressed in this sentence. He speaks of this even more
forcibly: "There is life and death in our life, just as in our
death." What does this mean except that life can be valued more
highly than death only when seen from the point of view of the
Death is decay to make room for new life, but the eternal lives in
the new life as in the old. The same eternal appears in transitory
life as in death. When man has grasped this eternal he looks upon
death with the same feelings as he looks upon life. Only if he is
unable to awaken this eternal within himself does life have a special
value for him. The sentence, "Everything is in a state of flux" may
be trotted out a thousand times, but if it is not spoken with a
feeling for this content it is void of meaning. Cognition of eternal
creation is valueless if it does not cancel out our dependence upon
earthly creation. Heraclitus means to repudiate the lust for life
which presses after transitory things with the saying, "How shall we
say of our daily life: `we are,' when we know that from the
standpoint of the eternal: `we are and we are not.'" (Heraclitus,
Fragment No. 81)
"But Hades is the same as Dionysus," states another of the Fragments
of Heraclitus. Dionysus, the god of lust for life, of germination and
growth, to whom the Dionysian festivals were dedicated, is for
Heraclitus the same as Hades, the god of annihilation and destruction.
Only one who sees life within death and death within life, and in
both the eternal which is infinitely above life and death, his gaze
alone can behold in the right light the disadvantages and advantages
of existence. Then the disadvantages find their justification, for
the eternal lives in them also. What they appear to be from the
standpoint of the limited lower life is only illusory: "For men to
get all they wish is not the better thing. It is disease that makes
health a pleasant thing; evil, good; hunger, surfeit; and toil,
rest." "Sea water is the most pure and the most polluted; for fishes
it is drinkable and salutary, but for men it is undrinkable and
If we apply this to the spiritual world we have the thought of
Heraclitus: "Immortals take on mortality, mortals immortality; death
is the eternal life of mortals, earthly life the death of immortals."
God has descended into the world of things. Whoever receives these
things without God receives them seriously as the "Tombs of God." He
should play with them like a child and employ his seriousness to draw
out of them the God who sleeps spellbound within.
Thus we understand Plato's words: "Whoever goes uninitiated and
unsanctified to the other world will lie in the mire, but he who
arrives there initiated and purified will dwell with the gods."
And the heavenly bodies move according to the laws he has
established. From this it follows immediately that the functions of
the human soul are not a force apart from the rest of the cosmos, but
that these functions are the expression of a law-abiding pattern
which is interwoven with the cosmos. The Pythagorean said to himself:
The senses show material phenomena to man. But they do not show the
harmonious patterns which the objects obey. Rather, the spirit of man
must first find these harmonious patterns within himself if he wishes
to behold them outside in the cosmos.
The deeper sense of the cosmos, that which reigns in it as eternal
law-abiding necessity, becomes apparent as a present reality in the
human soul. In the soul the meaning of the cosmos dawns. This meaning
does not lie in what is seen, heard and touched, but in what the soul
brings forth from its deep recesses into the light of day. The
eternal pattern therefore lies hidden in the depths of the soul. Let
us descend into the soul, and we shall find the eternal. God, the
eternal cosmic harmony, is within the human soul. The soul is not
confined to the physical body enclosed by man's skin. For in the soul
are born the patterns according to which the worlds circle in space.
So with this in my understanding of St. John's 5; the dead in the
graves are not dead and the graves are spiritual realms .. outside
the Holy City .. through repeated earth lives, through the 12
patterns of the Zodiac, growing closer to Christ do we enter the Holy
City? This is; the closer we become with Christ in repeated earth
lives the better our spiritual lives are between earthly lives. This
betterment may be an awakening to the full or whole pattern each time
we enter the realms between earthly lives and the whole pattern is
the Holy City.
My thoughts on this hefty subject what do you think?
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