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Knife edge placement - r-trem

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  • carlosferrao
    Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two knife edges are different. Oops. Which one goes where and facing which way? Any pics that can help me putting it
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 19, 2013
      Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two knife edges are different. Oops. Which one goes where and facing which way? Any pics that can help me putting it together?
    • carlosferrao
      Sorry folks, after lots of searching found the answer in the group. U shape goes on the right side it seems! ... Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 19, 2013

         Sorry folks, after lots of searching found the answer in the group. U shape goes on the right side it seems!



        ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <carlosferrao@...> wrote:

        Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two knife edges are different. Oops. Which one goes where and facing which way? Any pics that can help me putting it together?
      • andyyak
        The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located. The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren t
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 19, 2013
          The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located.

          The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren't scalloped. Two would work fine but it only needs one, and it's cheaper to make the straight ones.

          Andy


          --- In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <carlosferrao@...> wrote:
          >
          > Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two knife edges are different. Oops. Which one goes where and facing which way? Any pics that can help me putting it together?
          >
        • Matthew Henry
          Ha! And I thought it was some clever engineering about the top strings having to pivot differently to the bottom strings. What a sucker. Thanks Gibson! ;-)
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 19, 2013
            Ha! And I thought it was some clever engineering about the top strings having to pivot differently to the bottom strings. What a sucker. Thanks Gibson! ;-)


            Matt


            On 19 Nov 2013, at 20:35, andyyak <andyyak@...> wrote:

            The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located. 

            The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren't scalloped. Two would work fine but it only needs one, and it's cheaper to make the straight ones.

            Andy

            --- In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <carlosferrao@...> wrote:
            >
            > Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two knife edges are different. Oops. Which one goes where and facing which way? Any pics that can help me putting it together?
            >


          • Bruce Coffman, LEED AP
            Effective cost reduction IS clever engineering! Bruce
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 19, 2013
              Effective cost reduction IS clever engineering!

              Bruce


              On Nov 19, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Matthew Henry <mwh@...> wrote:

               

              Ha! And I thought it was some clever engineering about the top strings having to pivot differently to the bottom strings. What a sucker. Thanks Gibson! ;-)



              Matt


              On 19 Nov 2013, at 20:35, andyyak <andyyak@...> wrote:

              The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located. 

              The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren't scalloped. Two would work fine but it only needs one, and it's cheaper to make the straight ones.

              Andy

              --- In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <carlosferrao@...> wrote:
              >
              > Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two knife edges are different. Oops. Which one goes where and facing which way? Any pics that can help me putting it together?
              >


            • Komang A. Artha
              Hi for all, Did Any body want to sell R-trem bridge ??? Please contact me at goes_art@yahoo.com Thank you Komang Sent from my iPhone
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 19, 2013
                Hi for all,
                Did Any body want to sell R-trem bridge ???
                Please contact me at goes_art@...

                Thank you 
                Komang 

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Nov 19, 2013, at 5:00 PM, "Bruce Coffman, LEED AP" <bruce@...> wrote:

                 

                Effective cost reduction IS clever engineering!

                Bruce


                On Nov 19, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Matthew Henry <mwh@...> wrote:

                 

                Ha! And I thought it was some clever engineering about the top strings having to pivot differently to the bottom strings. What a sucker. Thanks Gibson! ;-)



                Matt


                On 19 Nov 2013, at 20:35, andyyak <andyyak@...> wrote:

                The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located. 

                The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren't scalloped. Two would work fine but it only needs one, and it's cheaper to make the straight ones.

                Andy

                --- In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <carlosferrao@...> wrote:
                >
                > Was cleaning up my r-trem and noticed the two knife edges are different. Oops. Which one goes where and facing which way? Any pics that can help me putting it together?
                >


              • be13em
                Actually two concave knife edges would be more of a problem. In case the distance between the knife edges is not EXACTLY that of the posts (and their most
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 19, 2013

                  Actually two concave knife edges would be more of a problem. In case the distance between the knife edges is not EXACTLY that of the posts (and their most recessed point), two concave ones would result in an undefined position. You would face a constant out-of-tune problem. 


                  Bernd



                  ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <andyyak@...> wrote:

                  The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located.

                  The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren't scalloped. Two would work fine but it only needs one, and it's cheaper to make the straight ones.

                  Andy


                • Matthew Henry
                  Aha! Matt
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 20, 2013
                    Aha!

                    Matt

                    On 19 Nov 2013, at 22:21, <ygroup@...> <ygroup@...> wrote:


                    Actually two concave knife edges would be more of a problem. In case the distance between the knife edges is not EXACTLY that of the posts (and their most recessed point), two concave ones would result in an undefined position. You would face a constant out-of-tune problem. 


                    Bernd



                    ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <andyyak@...> wrote:

                    The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located. 

                    The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren't scalloped. Two would work fine but it only needs one, and it's cheaper to make the straight ones.

                    Andy




                  • be13em
                    Aha! like in oh yes, sure, I understand , or more like no idea what you re talking about, but it sounds impressive anyway ? ;-) Bernd ... Aha! Matt
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 20, 2013

                       "Aha!" like in "oh yes, sure, I understand", or more like "no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds impressive anyway"?


                      ;-)


                      Bernd

                      ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <mwh@...> wrote:

                      Aha!

                      Matt


                    • Matthew Henry
                      As in, I thought there must be some clever thinking behind it. Sent from Samsung Mobile ygroup@meissner-dokuteam.de wrote:   Aha! like in oh yes, sure, I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 20, 2013
                        As in, "I thought there must be some clever thinking behind it."


                        Sent from Samsung Mobile


                        ygroup@... wrote:


                         

                         "Aha!" like in "oh yes, sure, I understand", or more like "no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds impressive anyway"?


                        ;-)


                        Bernd

                        ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <mwh@...> wrote:

                        Aha!

                        Matt


                      • andyyak
                        Not sure that s actually the case. If the width was off it would cause the scallops to not ride directly in the middle but the trem would still work. I
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 20, 2013
                          Not sure that's actually the case. If the width was off it would cause the scallops to not ride directly in the middle but the trem would still work. I remember this specifically as I came across a bag of scalloped knife edges down in Nashville when I went through the old parts years ago. Asked Ned if someone needed to replace theirs and only had two scalloped ones could they use those. He didn't think there'd be any problem with that, and that two new scallop knife edges would be better than old worn ones.

                          Andy


                          --- In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <ygroup@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Actually two concave knife edges would be more of a problem. In case the distance between the knife edges is not EXACTLY that of the posts (and their most recessed point), two concave ones would result in an undefined position. You would face a constant out-of-tune problem.
                          >
                          >
                          > Bernd
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <andyyak@> wrote:
                          >
                          > The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located.
                          >
                          > The scallop keeps the trem centered on the posts. Once asked Ned about why both weren't scalloped. Two would work fine but it only needs one, and it's cheaper to make the straight ones.
                          >
                          > Andy
                          >
                        • be13em
                          Not sure could be some kind of consensus ;-) However, I d think in such a case it would either lock in one or the other knife edge s center. Which
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 20, 2013

                             "Not sure" could be some kind of consensus ;-)


                            However, I'd think in such a case it would either lock in one or the other knife edge's center. Which automatically means it's off center on the other end, and this again means the trem top moves slightly back along the curve of the knife edge. And moving back means out of tune. And if it changes the locked side after using the trem (which may happen), it's out of tune again.


                            Of course these are only tiny distances. But TT owners know that tiny distances may have an impact.


                            Bernd



                            ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <andyyak@...> wrote:

                            Not sure that's actually the case. If the width was off it would cause the scallops to not ride directly in the middle but the trem would still work. ...
                          • andyyak
                            In essence two scalloped sides would act like one big scallop. I say not sure because I don t have a GR to try it but trust Ned s guidance on this. Andy
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 21, 2013
                              In essence two scalloped sides would act like one big scallop. I say "not sure" because I don't have a GR to try it but trust Ned's guidance on this.

                              Andy

                              --- In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <ygroup@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "Not sure" could be some kind of consensus ;-)
                              >
                              >
                              > However, I'd think in such a case it would either lock in one or the other knife edge's center. Which automatically means it's off center on the other end, and this again means the trem top moves slightly back along the curve of the knife edge. And moving back means out of tune. And if it changes the locked side after using the trem (which may happen), it's out of tune again.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Of course these are only tiny distances. But TT owners know that tiny distances may have an impact.
                              >
                              >
                              > Bernd
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---In steinberger_world@yahoogroups.com, <andyyak@> wrote:
                              >
                              > Not sure that's actually the case. If the width was off it would cause the scallops to not ride directly in the middle but the trem would still work. ...
                              >
                            • svomikey1
                              Hi guys. Help! I was looking through the threads. I disassembled my new-to-me 2000 Spirit w/ R trem. the posts appear bent but more importantly, the knife
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 1, 2017
                              Hi guys. Help! I was looking through the threads. I disassembled my new-to-me 2000 Spirit w/ R trem. the posts appear bent but more importantly, the knife edges appear as if one is really warn. Do I understand they are actually different? I purchased new posts but would like new edges too. Is there a supplier for these out there? Attached is a pic of my edges. Do these look serviceable? note the straight edge has a small divot in there. Should these be? Thanks for any help guys! Mikey
                            • be13em
                              Hi Mikey, yes, they are different by design. The concave one keeps the trem in place horizontally. And no, there is no supplier for the knife edges, but yours
                              Message 15 of 24 , Jun 1, 2017
                                Hi Mikey,

                                yes, they are different by design. The concave one keeps the trem in place horizontally. And no, there is no supplier for the knife edges, but yours don't look so bad. They should work without problems.

                                Bernd
                              • svomikey1
                                Thank you sir! PS, fan of your www page BTW. Well done!
                                Message 16 of 24 , Jun 1, 2017
                                  Thank you sir! PS, fan of your www page BTW. Well done!
                                • Mitch Regnier
                                  Yes, I agree, Bernd is awesome! My knife edges look more worn and work just fine. Nothing to worry about.
                                  Message 17 of 24 , Jun 2, 2017
                                    Yes, I agree, Bernd is awesome!  My knife edges look more worn and work just fine.  Nothing to worry about.
                                  • andyyak
                                    I recall a discussion with Ned on these when I came across a bag of only scalloped posts. One is necessary to keep the trem centered and sliding off the posts.
                                    Message 18 of 24 , Jun 4, 2017
                                      I recall a discussion with Ned on these when I came across a bag of only scalloped posts. One is necessary to keep the trem centered and sliding off the posts. The only reason they didn't do both of them is that it was more expensive to make the scalloped ones. He said you could use scalloped on both knife edges and it would be fine.

                                      Andy
                                    • be13em
                                      I still disagree on that. With all the manufacturing tolerances given, if the minima of the curves of both knife edges aren t 100% exactly where the middle
                                      Message 19 of 24 , Jun 5, 2017
                                        I still disagree on that.

                                        With all the manufacturing tolerances given, if the minima of the curves of both knife edges aren't 100% exactly where the middle positions of the posts are, you'll get an undefined trem top position with a negative impact on precise tuning. However, I know you disagree with my disagreement ;-)

                                        Bernd
                                      • andyyak
                                        If the tolerances are off with the single scalloped knife edge the pivot can shift anyways. Andy
                                        Message 20 of 24 , Jun 5, 2017
                                          If the tolerances are off with the single scalloped knife edge the pivot can shift anyways.

                                          Andy
                                        • be13em
                                          Andy, I just made a drawing to show what my concerns are. (1) shows a standard configuration with one straight and one curved knife edge. An unprecise curved
                                          Message 21 of 24 , Jun 6, 2017
                                            Andy,

                                            I just made a drawing to show what my concerns are. (1) shows a standard configuration with one straight and one curved knife edge. An unprecise curved knife edge may offset the trem horizontally, but it will still be sitting straight. The same is true for (2) with two curved knife edges. As long as both curves sit exactly where the posts are, the trem is still straight. (3) shows two curved knife edges with a non-matching distance of the curves or posts. Depending on the different string pull on both sides and the forces applied by using the trem arm, the trem may come to rest in an angled position, which will lead to issues regarding the tuning stability.

                                            I don't know how much of a "real world problem" this might be, but for me it explains why the combination of straight + curved edge makes sense.

                                            http://www.headless-europe.eu/Files/Images/Knife_edges_curved_vs_straight.png

                                             


                                            Bernd
                                          • svomikey1
                                            So Andy noted: The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located. . This makes sense and I agree with it. So I went and looked at my GT yesterday.
                                            Message 22 of 24 , Jun 6, 2017
                                              So Andy noted: "The scalloped one should go on side where the arm is located.".

                                              This makes sense and I agree with it. So I went and looked at my GT yesterday. Nope. I'm a lefty. The scallop is not on the side  with the arm. That would require more work on the Asian assembly line and it didn't happen. When i add Bernd's new studs, I'll swap them from side to side.

                                              Unrelated, I could use a 2nd Lefty term arm. Anybody have a source for these?
                                            • andyyak
                                              When I was writing before I was thinking more about side to side play, not what I d term skew . I would imagine that the tension on the strings would incline
                                              Message 23 of 24 , Jun 6, 2017
                                                When I was writing before I was thinking more about side to side play, not what I'd term "skew".

                                                I would imagine that the tension on the strings would incline the scallops to "split the difference" as it were and not have one be in the center of the scallop and the other farther up. Tension wants to find balance and I don't know that the pivot would skew to that great of a degree.

                                                Andy
                                              • be13em
                                                I understand. However, tension wants to find balance would result in a correctly centered balance if tension was equal on both sides. According to available
                                                Message 24 of 24 , Jun 7, 2017
                                                  I understand. However, "tension wants to find balance" would result in a correctly centered balance if tension was equal on both sides. According to available string tension charts the tension is higher on the bass side, e.g. on the D'Addario EXL 110 set: 55.4 lbs on the 3 lower strings vs. 48.2 lbs on the 3 higher strings. Also relevant, which the dreaded "return-to-zero" problem on TT and ST shows: also very low friction still has an impact on balanced systems, and sometimes balance is off-center. Even when you're pretty close to perfection with burnished roller saddles and new bearings.

                                                  Anyway, it isn't very important, and the effect in the real world probably very small. It's just an explanation why I'd prefer the straight + curved edge version, which is the standard anyway :-)

                                                  Bernd
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