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Re: [Star Trek Books] Re: Stop bashing ENT!

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  • April Payne
    Jerry L Seward wrote: I love STAR TREK in all its forms but Spock WAS like that. Remember The Cage where he smiled? He even joked to
    Message 1 of 8 , May 7, 2003
      Jerry L Seward <Jerry457@...> wrote: I love STAR TREK in all its forms but Spock WAS like that. Remember
      "The Cage" where he smiled? He even joked to Janice Rand about basically
      her almost rape in "The Enemy Within." >
      Jerry

      --

      On Mon, 05 May 2003 18:45:16 -0000 "ccgreenman"
      <ccgreenman@...> writes:
      >
      > < I agree with the comment
      > about the Vulcan mind meld - but what about all the emotions T'Pal
      > is
      > always showing? Spock was never like that. - >
      > CoriI have to agree with Jerry, Spock did, upon occassion, display his emotions. With Spock, however, he had a very good excuse, he's half-human, and he was nearly always ashamed of the feelings he did experience ie "The Naked Time" where he expresses to Jim Kirk that the feelings of friendship he holds for the captain causes him shame. He also noted how difficult it must have been for his mother to live in a society where the showing of emotions was considered "in poor taste". Now, I have my own issues with ENT, and the mind-meld thing was way off base IMO, based on all that was previously presented about the technique in TOS. But to suggest Spock never showed his emotions, is in error. Another really good example is ST: VI, where he showed his wrath! It was a powerful scene between Spock and Valeris when he slapped that phaser right out of her hand, one I shall not soon forget. I jumped in my seat. Watch TOS carefully. I have studied this character for quite literally years, being a major fan of his since 1971 and am attempting to write my own novel about him. He is quite complex, and there is a delicate balance between his two halves. He is primarily stoic, the demeanor he prefers, (most comfortable with) yet admits he is in his "own personal hell" at the same time, see "This Side of Paradise". He, too, is a "man of deep feelings", though he keeps them tightly underwraps, or almost, and did feel it when Chekov died, although he kept his emotions about it to himself and under control, see "Spectre of the Gun" where he reminded Kirk the others often forget he is half-human. There is also a rather lovely scene between McCoy and Spock where the iracible doctor confronts the Vulcan about his feelings, (See, "Bread and Circuses"), noting how Spock continues to check the bars of their cell over and over, citing the illogic of it. McCoy accuses Spock of not knowing how to deal with an honest emotion, so therefore he hides! We also see Spock distract himself when his father, Ambassador Sarek, is dreadfully ill with heart disease and will likely die before help can be rendered, "Journey to Babel", in order to remain stoic as his father would wish, strictly guarding his behavior, (keeping to Logic) lest he encur his father's chastisement. "Can you imagine what my father would say . . .?" talking to his mother about his strict reliance on Logic, when the action called for got in the way of his duty, citing if he could give the blood transfusion without losing valuable time, he would submit at, however . . . that too, was a powerful moment in the character development of Spock. We clearly saw his struggle. As far as T'Pol is concerned, what she lacks is personality and it could be someone equated a display of emotion with personality, which is a false notion where Vulcans are concerned. Valeris was full of personality, yet kept to her stoic demeanor, as did T'Pau, seen in "Amok Time". T'Pring, from the same episode got her point across without displaying emotion, yet we saw her personality clearly! And there is always the silver-tongued Sarek who wielded logic as if it were a sword of great power. And he usually won his point, I might add, as his wife, Amanda, cited in "Journey to Babel". I shall stop here as I wax long on the subject, my apologies! April



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    • Sylva Dax
      If Enterprise continues to give us episodes like Cogenitor and Regeneration, they will have hit their stride earlier than their predecessors. I found myself
      Message 2 of 8 , May 7, 2003
        If Enterprise continues to give us episodes like Cogenitor and Regeneration, they will have hit their stride earlier than their predecessors.

        I found myself torn while watching Trip try to right what he perceived as a moral crime. While I could understand his outrage, I also felt he was shortsighted and arrogant in ignoring Phlox's and T'Pol's advice regarding the situation. Not once does he stop to consider what historical context might have given birth to the way the cogenitors are treated in their society.

        I just loved the idea that the events of First Contact had repurcussions in Archer's time. In a way, it explains why the Borg in Picard and Janeway's time are so intent on assimilating Earth.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Staci Hapdock
        To: startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:51 AM
        Subject: Re: [Star Trek Books] Re: Stop bashing ENT!


        I, too, quite liked Cogenitor. I thought it was a great episode showing one of the incidents that the Prime Directive would come out of. And I can quite understand where Trip was coming from. In that situation I would have been hard pressed to say nothing.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Dionne
        Okay,I watched Regeneration last night too and I have one lil nitpick...why is the treatment that Dr Phlox cam e up with for the nanoprobes not around when
        Message 3 of 8 , May 8, 2003
          Okay,I watched "Regeneration' last night too and I have one lil nitpick...why is the treatment that Dr Phlox cam e up with for the nanoprobes not around when Dr Crusher was treating Capt Picard in "Best of Both Worlds"?
          Otherwise,I'd rate the episode an eight for canon consiistency.
          Yours,
          Michael
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sylva Dax
          To: startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:43 PM
          Subject: Re: [Star Trek Books] Re: Stop bashing ENT!


          If Enterprise continues to give us episodes like Cogenitor and Regeneration, they will have hit their stride earlier than their predecessors.

          I found myself torn while watching Trip try to right what he perceived as a moral crime. While I could understand his outrage, I also felt he was shortsighted and arrogant in ignoring Phlox's and T'Pol's advice regarding the situation. Not once does he stop to consider what historical context might have given birth to the way the cogenitors are treated in their society.

          I just loved the idea that the events of First Contact had repurcussions in Archer's time. In a way, it explains why the Borg in Picard and Janeway's time are so intent on assimilating Earth.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Staci Hapdock
          To: startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:51 AM
          Subject: Re: [Star Trek Books] Re: Stop bashing ENT!


          I, too, quite liked Cogenitor. I thought it was a great episode showing one of the incidents that the Prime Directive would come out of. And I can quite understand where Trip was coming from. In that situation I would have been hard pressed to say nothing.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        • KP INDENTON
          Michael wrote: why is the treatment that Dr Phlox came up with for the nanoprobes not around when Dr Crusher was treating Capt Picard in Best of Both
          Message 4 of 8 , May 8, 2003
            Michael wrote:
            "why is the treatment that Dr Phlox came up with for the nanoprobes not
            around when Dr Crusher was treating Capt Picard in "Best of Both Worlds"?

            I can think of two reasons. Perhaps human phisiology would not allow for
            such extreme bombardment of the type of radiation used and so was NOT an
            option on Captain Picard. The other would be is that perhaps the nanites had
            evolved or species had been assimilated where that was no longer an
            effective treatment. There may be other reasons that someone else could
            contribute. I hope that most of the biggest critics will shut their mouths
            about how bad Enterprise is after seeing how good it is becoming. Last
            nights episode was great! I give it an 8.5 out of 10. I'm looking forward to
            how this season concludes with the new direction.

            Kevin

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          • youngtrek
            I had a few small questions myself after watching Regeneration . They didn t detract from my enjoyment, but: 1) Why didn t the Borg start their customary
            Message 5 of 8 , May 9, 2003
              I had a few small questions myself after watching "Regeneration".
              They didn't detract from my enjoyment, but:

              1) Why didn't the Borg start their customary speech with "We are the
              Borg"? They skipped that part and went straight to "You will be
              assimilated. Resistance is futile." The outside-the-box answer is
              that we don't want Starfleet of Archer's era to put in their
              logbooks anything about the "Borg" since by Picard's time they don't
              know about the Borg.

              2) They still have all of those pictures and scans of the recovered
              Borg drones (plus additional drones themselves frozen deep within
              the ice) that you have to assume Starfleet stored away somewhere.
              After encountering the Borg in the 24th Century, wouldn't Picard or
              Data or somebody have found the old data in the archives. (Of
              course, with the "temporal cold war" and all, I'm a bit skeptical
              about how much of the "Enterprise" continuity will end up still
              being around by Kirk and Picard's era once the series concludes.)

              3) So all they have to do to make phase pistols work against Borg
              shields is increase the yield? A lot less complicated than
              alternating the frequencies on the TNG-era phasers. (Don't forget,
              we're talking about TNG-era Borg, who have already assimilated all
              of that cutting edge TNG-era tech, not Enterprise-era drones.)

              4) The biggest thing to me was this: Early in the episode, the
              researcher commented (after looking at the scans) that the two
              recovered Borg drones "were separate species". Then, near the end
              of the episode, Archer scanned the assimilated researchers (now
              drones themselves) and stated that "they're no longer human".

              Well, one, what species did they become technically (if not human)
              and why had the earlier (defrosted TNG-era) Borg apparently retained
              at least a portion of their original species traits?

              And, of course, the biggest apparent contradiction with this is that
              we've seen in other series (TNG with Picard/Locutus, "Voyager" with
              Seven of Nine) that assimilated humans *are* still human (at least
              physically) and can be "deassimilated".

              I guess the explanation could be that in the earlier instance (with
              the researchers and the defrosted drones) the genetic scans revealed
              their dormant alien DNA. Later, when Archer scanned the former
              researchers/now drones, his tricorder (not as sophistated as the
              researcher's base equipment or future tricorders) interpreted the
              much altered bio readings as "no longer human."

              David Young
            • Ian McFarlane
              Really, the only issue I had with $B!H(BRegeneration$B!I(B was your point 2). And even that I suspect will be dealt with later. The Enterprise series is
              Message 6 of 8 , May 10, 2003
                Really, the only issue I had with “Regeneration” was your point 2).
                And even that I suspect will be dealt with later.



                The Enterprise series is the perfect showcase for the beginnings of
                “Section 31”. Why couldn’t this event have triggered the formation of
                this organization? It could then have worked hard to classify a lot of
                this first encounter for various nefarious reasons. Remember in the
                episode where after they dealt with the Borg, Archers says “Get me
                Admiral Forrest”? Who the heck knows what they talked about?



                It would have been nice to have hinted at a kind of high level cover-up
                and if the writers have any sense, they’ll definitely re-visit this
                aspect. Maybe there could be some additional repercussions to the
                encounter that can be dealt with in a separate episode that can properly
                explain why 200 years later the likes of Picard and his buddies are
                completely clueless.



                -----Original Message-----
                From: youngtrek [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 10:51 AM
                To: startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Star Trek Books] Re: Stop bashing ENT!




                I had a few small questions myself after watching "Regeneration".
                They didn't detract from my enjoyment, but:

                1) Why didn't the Borg start their customary speech with "We are the
                Borg"? They skipped that part and went straight to "You will be
                assimilated. Resistance is futile." The outside-the-box answer is
                that we don't want Starfleet of Archer's era to put in their
                logbooks anything about the "Borg" since by Picard's time they don't
                know about the Borg.

                2) They still have all of those pictures and scans of the recovered
                Borg drones (plus additional drones themselves frozen deep within
                the ice) that you have to assume Starfleet stored away somewhere.
                After encountering the Borg in the 24th Century, wouldn't Picard or
                Data or somebody have found the old data in the archives. (Of
                course, with the "temporal cold war" and all, I'm a bit skeptical
                about how much of the "Enterprise" continuity will end up still
                being around by Kirk and Picard's era once the series concludes.)

                3) So all they have to do to make phase pistols work against Borg
                shields is increase the yield? A lot less complicated than
                alternating the frequencies on the TNG-era phasers. (Don't forget,
                we're talking about TNG-era Borg, who have already assimilated all
                of that cutting edge TNG-era tech, not Enterprise-era drones.)

                4) The biggest thing to me was this: Early in the episode, the
                researcher commented (after looking at the scans) that the two
                recovered Borg drones "were separate species". Then, near the end
                of the episode, Archer scanned the assimilated researchers (now
                drones themselves) and stated that "they're no longer human".

                Well, one, what species did they become technically (if not human)
                and why had the earlier (defrosted TNG-era) Borg apparently retained
                at least a portion of their original species traits?

                And, of course, the biggest apparent contradiction with this is that
                we've seen in other series (TNG with Picard/Locutus, "Voyager" with
                Seven of Nine) that assimilated humans *are* still human (at least
                physically) and can be "deassimilated".

                I guess the explanation could be that in the earlier instance (with
                the researchers and the defrosted drones) the genetic scans revealed
                their dormant alien DNA. Later, when Archer scanned the former
                researchers/now drones, his tricorder (not as sophistated as the
                researcher's base equipment or future tricorders) interpreted the
                much altered bio readings as "no longer human."

                David Young







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