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Re: [Star Trek Books] Re: Trek Books That Would Make Great Television

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  • Daniel Adams
    Hmmm, good discussion. Anything where there is a full blown crossover is always film gold - the Shatner Novels, the Invasion series, and like has been
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 1 5:14 AM
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      Hmmm, good discussion. Anything where there is a full blown crossover is always film gold - the Shatner Novels, the Invasion series, and like has been previously said, the Avatar Novels.
      Personally, I think that the DS9 could benefited from mini-series or a series of TV movies that took place after the finale. But hey, we have Avatar novels, so its all good. another key problem is that the Actors move on to other projects after series end, so for example, a Voyager TV movie might be difficult because Jeri Ryan is under contract to Boston Public. Or stars want to avoid typecasting and may not reprise their character even on a semi-regular basis (although it didn't bother Michael Dorn, who has 10 years of Trek TV time under his belt).
      Anyway, other novels I'd like to see as TV shows:
      Fallen Heroes (DS9)
      The entire New Frontier series
      The millenium trilogy
      ___
      Dan
      mcfari wrote:I do agree with the whole Books and Television thing. Pretty much
      all of the DS9 relaunch novels fall into that category.
      Millenium would have made a fantastic film! (So would Shatner's 'The
      Return that he co wrote with the Reeves Stevenses. The Borg stuff
      was phenomenal! Sadly, his books essentially fall outside of
      established Trek continuity). I've always thought that the Trek
      Movie scripts never rose to the epics that they could have become.

      Who can forget the books: Vendetta, Q-Squared, Federation (before it
      got ruined by First Contact), The 34th Rule, Section 31: Rogue.
      I'm sure there are others too. I agree with your statement about
      Peter David as well. I'm not into Dean Wesley Smith as much. I think
      that Peter David hits the spirit of the characters far more squarely
      than Dean and he does it with style and humor.

      By the way, I still hate when folks knock Voyager because I thought
      that there were quite a few good episodes in there:
      Counterpoint
      Unity
      Scorpion
      Dark Frontier
      Macrocosm
      Resolutions
      Basics
      Scientific Method
      Timeless I and II
      Year Of Hell Pt II
      Endgame
      There are others too but I can't remember them right now. Kate
      Mulgrew played the role of a female Starfleet Captain to perfection.
      Also, they gave Jeri Ryan some episodes where she shone.

      The reason why DS9 edges out Voyager in my opinion) was due to the
      Dominion War and the 4th Season Klingon vs. Federation storyline.
      These provided a sharper and darker edge to the series that seared
      certain images into my head.

      Enterprise appears fresher (and I like it) because they make the pre-
      TOS stuff look interesting and believable even though newer special
      effects technology and makeup adavancements far surpass what we had
      in the 60's.

      --- In startrekbooks@y..., madewan <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Hi all,
      >
      > Am just wondering what your thoughts are on certain Star Trek
      books
      > actually being good enough to make a crossover as it were into the
      > actual Tv shows on which they are based.
      >
      > Over the years I have actually read quite a number of Star Trek
      books
      > ranging from Tos to TNG. In fact I recently read the Deep Space
      Nine
      > Avaitor series and thought that those books would have made a
      great
      > three part episode of DS9.
      >
      > In fact I would go as far as to say that a lot of the books based
      in
      > or around the Star Trek universe could potentially make better
      > episodes than the ones we are getting. Thus far am pretty happy
      with
      > the way Enterprise is going, but I really though at times that
      > Voyager needed some new original material.
      >
      > My favorate Trek writers are Peter David, Dean Wesley Smith and
      > Michael Jan Friedman. In fact a majority of my Star Trek
      collection
      > of books are by those writers. I think the reason is that they
      > captore what I call the true spirit of Star Trek but also add
      their
      > own elements without it being to invasive on the storie.


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    • Staci Hapdock
      I ve really gotta agree. Some of the last couple seasons episodes especially were incredible. Q2 had a wonderful balance of humor, and meaning, and depth.
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 1 12:21 PM
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        I've really gotta agree. Some of the last couple seasons' episodes especially were incredible. Q2 had a wonderful balance of humor, and meaning, and depth. The Haunting of Deck 12 was a marvelous look at the assumptions we make. The entire Seven Of Nine story arc showed the marvelous evolution of a person, from not caring about any individual at all, to sacrificing her own happiness to minimize the hurt of another. And Memorial was one of the most important and intense hours of TV I've ever watched.
        Spaci

        >>By the way, I still hate when folks knock Voyager because I thought
        that there were quite a few good episodes in there:
        Counterpoint
        Unity
        Scorpion
        Dark Frontier
        Macrocosm
        Resolutions
        Basics
        Scientific Method
        Timeless I and II
        Year Of Hell Pt II
        Endgame




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      • Staci Hapdock
        I d love to have seen just about any of Peter David s work on screen.  The chase scene in Q-In-Law would make TV history!!! Spaci  
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 1 12:22 PM
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          <P> I'd love to have seen just about any of Peter
          David's work on screen.  The chase scene in
          Q-In-Law would make TV history!!!
          <P>Spaci
          <P>  <B><I>Daniel Adams
          <dankind33@...></I></B> wrote:
          <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
          5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT><BR>Hmmm,
          good discussion.  Anything where there is a full
          blown crossover is always film gold  - the
          Shatner Novels, the Invasion series, and like has been
          previously said, the Avatar Novels. 
          <BR>Personally, I think that the DS9 could benefited
          from mini-series or a series of TV movies that took
          place after the finale.  But hey, we have Avatar
          novels, so its all good.  another key problem is
          that the Actors move on to other projects after 
          series end, so for example, a Voyager TV movie might
          be difficult because Jeri Ryan is under contract to
          Boston Public.  Or stars want to avoid
          typecasting and may not reprise their character even
          on a semi-regular basis (although it didn't bother
          Michael Dorn, who has 10 years of Trek TV time under
          his belt).  <BR>Anyway, other novels I'd like to
          see as TV shows:<BR>Fallen Heroes (DS9)<BR>The entire
          New Frontier series<BR>The millenium
          trilogy<BR>___<BR>Dan<BR>mcfari wrote:I do agree with
          the whole Books and Television thing. Pretty much
          <BR>all of the DS9 relaunch novels fall into that
          category. <BR>Millenium would have made a fantastic
          film! (So would Shatner's 'The <BR>Return that he co
          wrote with the Reeves Stevenses. The Borg stuff
          <BR>was phenomenal! Sadly, his books essentially fall
          outside of <BR>established Trek continuity). I've
          always thought that the Trek <BR>Movie scripts never
          rose to the epics that they could have
          become.<BR><BR>Who can forget the books: Vendetta,
          Q-Squared, Federation (before it <BR>got ruined by
          First Contact), The 34th Rule, Section 31:
          Rogue.<BR>I'm sure there are others too. I agree with
          your statement about <BR>Peter David as well. I'm not
          into Dean Wesley Smith as much. I think <BR>that Peter
          David hits the spirit of the characters far more
          squarely <BR>than Dean and he does it with style and
          humor.<BR><BR>By the way, I still hate when folks
          knock Voyager because I thought <BR>that there were
          quite a few good episodes in
          there:<BR>           
          Counterpoint<BR>           
          Unity<BR>           
          Scorpion<BR>           
          Dark
          Frontier<BR>           
          Macrocosm<BR>           
          Resolutions<BR>           
          Basics<BR>           
          Scientific
          Method<BR>           
          Timeless I and
          II<BR>           
          Year Of Hell Pt
          II<BR>           
          Endgame<BR>There are others too but I can't remember
          them right now. Kate <BR>Mulgrew played the role of a
          female Starfleet Captain to perfection.<BR>Also, they
          gave Jeri Ryan some episodes where she
          shone.<BR><BR>The reason why DS9 edges out Voyager in
          my opinion) was due to the <BR>Dominion War and the
          4th Season Klingon vs. Federation storyline. <BR>These
          provided a sharper and darker edge to the series that
          seared <BR>certain images into my
          head.<BR><BR>Enterprise appears fresher (and I like
          it) because they make the pre-<BR>TOS stuff look
          interesting and believable even though newer special
          <BR>effects technology and makeup adavancements far
          surpass what we had <BR>in the 60's.<BR><BR>--- In
          startrekbooks@y..., madewan <no_reply@y...>
          wrote:<BR>> Hi all,<BR>> <BR>> Am just
          wondering what your thoughts are on certain Star Trek
          <BR>books <BR>> actually being good enough to make
          a crossover as it were into the <BR>> actual Tv
          shows on which they are based.<BR>> <BR>> Over
          the years I have actually read quite a number of Star
          Trek <BR>books <BR>> ranging from Tos to TNG. In
          fact I recently read the Deep Space <BR>Nine <BR>>
          Avaitor series and thought that those books would have
          made a <BR>great <BR>> three part episode of
          DS9.<BR>> <BR>> In fact I would go as far as to
          say that a lot of the books based <BR>in <BR>> or
          around the Star Trek universe could potentially make
          better <BR>> episodes than the ones we are getting.
          Thus far am pretty happy <BR>with <BR>> the way
          Enterprise is going, but I really though at times that
          <BR>> Voyager needed some new original material.
          <BR>> <BR>> My favorate Trek writers are Peter
          David, Dean Wesley Smith and <BR>> Michael Jan
          Friedman. In fact a majority of my Star Trek
          <BR>collection <BR>> of books are by those writers.
          I think the reason is that they <BR>> captore what
          I call the true spirit of Star Trek but also add
          <BR>their <BR>> own elements without it being to
          invasive on the storie.<BR><BR><BR>Yahoo! Groups
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        • madewan
          ... Shatner s The ... it ... think ... squarely ... pre- ... the ... Sorry about this, but I will have to agree to disagree with you on Voyager. On some
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 1 1:05 PM
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            --- In startrekbooks@y..., mcfari <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > I do agree with the whole Books and Television thing. Pretty much
            > all of the DS9 relaunch novels fall into that category.
            > Millenium would have made a fantastic film! (So would
            Shatner's 'The
            > Return that he co wrote with the Reeves Stevenses. The Borg stuff
            > was phenomenal! Sadly, his books essentially fall outside of
            > established Trek continuity). I've always thought that the Trek
            > Movie scripts never rose to the epics that they could have become.
            >
            > Who can forget the books: Vendetta, Q-Squared, Federation (before
            it
            > got ruined by First Contact), The 34th Rule, Section 31: Rogue.
            > I'm sure there are others too. I agree with your statement about
            > Peter David as well. I'm not into Dean Wesley Smith as much. I
            think
            > that Peter David hits the spirit of the characters far more
            squarely
            > than Dean and he does it with style and humor.
            >
            > By the way, I still hate when folks knock Voyager because I thought
            > that there were quite a few good episodes in there:
            > Counterpoint
            > Unity
            > Scorpion
            > Dark Frontier
            > Macrocosm
            > Resolutions
            > Basics
            > Scientific Method
            > Timeless I and II
            > Year Of Hell Pt II
            > Endgame
            > There are others too but I can't remember them right now. Kate
            > Mulgrew played the role of a female Starfleet Captain to perfection.
            > Also, they gave Jeri Ryan some episodes where she shone.
            >
            > The reason why DS9 edges out Voyager in my opinion) was due to the
            > Dominion War and the 4th Season Klingon vs. Federation storyline.
            > These provided a sharper and darker edge to the series that seared
            > certain images into my head.
            >
            > Enterprise appears fresher (and I like it) because they make the
            pre-
            > TOS stuff look interesting and believable even though newer special
            > effects technology and makeup adavancements far surpass what we had
            > in the 60's.
            >
            > --- In startrekbooks@y..., madewan <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > Hi all,
            > >
            > > Am just wondering what your thoughts are on certain Star Trek
            > books
            > > actually being good enough to make a crossover as it were into
            the
            > > actual Tv shows on which they are based.
            > >
            > > Over the years I have actually read quite a number of Star Trek
            > books
            > > ranging from Tos to TNG. In fact I recently read the Deep Space
            > Nine
            > > Avaitor series and thought that those books would have made a
            > great
            > > three part episode of DS9.
            > >
            > > In fact I would go as far as to say that a lot of the books based
            > in
            > > or around the Star Trek universe could potentially make better
            > > episodes than the ones we are getting. Thus far am pretty happy
            > with
            > > the way Enterprise is going, but I really though at times that
            > > Voyager needed some new original material.
            > >
            > > My favorate Trek writers are Peter David, Dean Wesley Smith and
            > > Michael Jan Friedman. In fact a majority of my Star Trek
            > collection
            > > of books are by those writers. I think the reason is that they
            > > captore what I call the true spirit of Star Trek but also add
            > their
            > > own elements without it being to invasive on the storie.

            Sorry about this, but I will have to agree to disagree with you on
            Voyager. On some points, I happen to agree that Mulgrew played the
            role of captain well, but I think that her character would have
            benefited a lot more if there were a few female writers writing for
            her, the realm of Trek writers in the TV show is male dominated. I
            really think that if they had more writers like Jeri Tayler in there
            if only to focus on the female leads that it would benefit Star Trek
            a whole lot more.

            As for the Borg episodes, well the borgs downfall to me started with
            First Contact, but Voyager killed the Borg. To me the borg were more
            of a fearsome race when they assilulated without making an advance
            press statement on the matter. Sure the Borg Queen was pretty good in
            her role, but it would have been a whole lot more dramatic and a lot
            more ftightening if the Borg were less concerned with communication
            and making there plans known and just got on with it.

            Voyager had a chance with Speices whatever the numbers lol, but they
            even blunted their edge. Overall Voyager to me will remain the
            weakest Trek show. I mean what happened to the other characters,
            before Seven of Nine came along other characters such as Torress,
            Paris and Chakotay were developing really nicely. But after Seven
            came into the show a majority of the episodes revolved around Seven,
            The EHM and Janeway. It was almost as if the writers were unsure of
            which path to follow.

            Voyager started off as a TNG Clone of sorts and sort of moved into
            the realm of a triangle of characters which feature mainly of The
            EMH, Janeway and Seven throughout most of the seasons after Seven
            joined the crew.

            I think that the writers could well be back on track now with
            Enterprise, but feel that it all lost a little of it's momentum with
            Voyager. Thankfully though Enterprise has found that momentum again.
          • mcfari
            madewan, I was fine with your first paragraph. Everyone has opinions. However, I have to disagreee quite strongly with your statement about Voyager killing the
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 1 1:30 PM
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              madewan,

              I was fine with your first paragraph. Everyone has opinions.

              However, I have to disagreee quite strongly with your statement
              about Voyager killing the Borg. If anything Voyager took the whole
              concept to another level. It showed that the Borg were far more
              complex than first revealed in TNG. Even in TNG, there was
              exploration of Borg individuality (Take a look at I,Borg and Descent
              1 and 2)

              As for Voyager being a TNG clone, in a sense, all Trek series are
              cloning each other in some way shape and form. "Enterprise" is the
              ultimate clone. Hotheaded captain, Vulcan first officer, Cmdr Tucker
              (Basically McCoy re-incarnated). But that's fine by me because they
              have an angle into it(the whole prequel business). The Trek Universe
              is basically all about exploration of the unknown. DS9 chose to do
              this within the context of Bajor, The Gamma Quadrant, and war with a
              basically fearful group of ShapeShifters called the Dominion.
              Voyager did it from the Delta Quadrant, ST:TNG did it from the good
              old Alpha Quadrant.

              All of the T.V. shows had good and bad shows. People knocked ST:TNG
              for the first 2 seasons. Something similar happened with DS9 as
              well. Certainly, Voyager has had its clunkers: "Tattoo", "The Fight"
              and "Threshold" spring to mind but I don't think it was any worse
              overall than the other series.

              Anyway, ultimately, everyone is going to have their favorites. I
              honestly can't help that but I'll pretty much defend Voyager 9 times
              out of 10.

              P.S. Keith DeCandido loved the Hirogen characters to make one of
              them an important presence in the DS9 contributution to the Gateways
              crossover last year. This was another great alien race introduced by
              Voyager.



              >
              > Sorry about this, but I will have to agree to disagree with you on
              > Voyager. On some points, I happen to agree that Mulgrew played the
              > role of captain well, but I think that her character would have
              > benefited a lot more if there were a few female writers writing
              for
              > her, the realm of Trek writers in the TV show is male dominated. I
              > really think that if they had more writers like Jeri Tayler in
              there
              > if only to focus on the female leads that it would benefit Star
              Trek
              > a whole lot more.
              >
              > As for the Borg episodes, well the borgs downfall to me started
              with
              > First Contact, but Voyager killed the Borg. To me the borg were
              more
              > of a fearsome race when they assilulated without making an advance
              > press statement on the matter. Sure the Borg Queen was pretty good
              in
              > her role, but it would have been a whole lot more dramatic and a
              lot
              > more ftightening if the Borg were less concerned with
              communication
              > and making there plans known and just got on with it.
              >
              > Voyager had a chance with Speices whatever the numbers lol, but
              they
              > even blunted their edge. Overall Voyager to me will remain the
              > weakest Trek show. I mean what happened to the other characters,
              > before Seven of Nine came along other characters such as Torress,
              > Paris and Chakotay were developing really nicely. But after Seven
              > came into the show a majority of the episodes revolved around
              Seven,
              > The EHM and Janeway. It was almost as if the writers were unsure
              of
              > which path to follow.
              >
              > Voyager started off as a TNG Clone of sorts and sort of moved into
              > the realm of a triangle of characters which feature mainly of The
              > EMH, Janeway and Seven throughout most of the seasons after Seven
              > joined the crew.
              >
              > I think that the writers could well be back on track now with
              > Enterprise, but feel that it all lost a little of it's momentum
              with
              > Voyager. Thankfully though Enterprise has found that momentum
              again.
            • mcfari
              Thanks Staci! I ll also like to toss in The Good Shepherd and Obssession . The former was Voyager s Lower Decks story and the latter was a truly sad story
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 1 1:35 PM
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                Thanks Staci!

                I'll also like to toss in "The Good Shepherd" and "Obssession". The
                former was Voyager's "Lower Decks" story and the latter was a truly
                sad story involving the duplicate Voyager crew from the demon class
                planet encountered in the 2nd or 3rd season of Voyager.

                Omega Directive is yet another good ep. that springs to mind.

                The introduction of 7-of-9 was in part a ploy to boost ratings for
                the show but the writers did great things with her because her
                character grew. The re-introduction of Worf into DS9 was also a ploy.
                That stuff doesn't matter much. It's what you do with the characters
                that count.

                The one thing I will say is that the Voyager novels were never quite
                that strong but that's due to the writers that got the assignments.
                C'est la vie is all I can say.


                --- In startrekbooks@y..., Staci Hapdock <spaci1701@y...> wrote:
                >
                > I've really gotta agree. Some of the last couple seasons'
                episodes especially were incredible. Q2 had a wonderful balance of
                humor, and meaning, and depth. The Haunting of Deck 12 was a
                marvelous look at the assumptions we make. The entire Seven Of Nine
                story arc showed the marvelous evolution of a person, from not
                caring about any individual at all, to sacrificing her own happiness
                to minimize the hurt of another. And Memorial was one of the most
                important and intense hours of TV I've ever watched.
                > Spaci
                >
                > >>By the way, I still hate when folks knock Voyager because I
                thought
                > that there were quite a few good episodes in there:
                > Counterpoint
                > Unity
                > Scorpion
                > Dark Frontier
                > Macrocosm
                > Resolutions
                > Basics
                > Scientific Method
                > Timeless I and II
                > Year Of Hell Pt II
                > Endgame
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Post your ad for free now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Daniel Adams
                As for the Borg episodes, well the borgs downfall to me started with First Contact, but Voyager killed the Borg. To me the borg were more of a fearsome race
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 1 1:40 PM
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                  As for the Borg episodes, well the borgs downfall to me started with
                  First Contact, but Voyager killed the Borg. To me the borg were more
                  of a fearsome race when they assilulated without making an advance
                  press statement on the matter. Sure the Borg Queen was pretty good in
                  her role, but it would have been a whole lot more dramatic and a lot
                  more ftightening if the Borg were less concerned with communication
                  and making there plans known and just got on with it

                  *****DAN SAYS*****

                  Granted, The borg were pretty much castrated on Voyager,



                  Voyager had a chance with Speices whatever the numbers lol, but they
                  even blunted their edge. Overall Voyager to me will remain the
                  weakest Trek show. I mean what happened to the other characters,
                  before Seven of Nine came along other characters such as Torress,
                  Paris and Chakotay were developing really nicely. But after Seven
                  came into the show a majority of the episodes revolved around Seven,
                  The EHM and Janeway. It was almost as if the writers were unsure of
                  which path to follow.


                  *****DAN SAYS*****

                  I admit, they are the three character which have been pushed to the fore, but only because they are the three most popular. TNG did a similar kind of thing - it seemed as if many of the episodes revolved around either Picard, Worf or Data.

                  But just take the 7th season of Voyager and there are a great deal of episodes which focus on other characters -

                  Drive - the one where Tom and Belanna got married

                  Repression - a Tuvok centred epsiode

                  Nightingale - Garret Wang takes centre stage as Kim

                  Lineage - Torres again

                  Prophecy - Paris and Torres

                  Human Error and Natural Law - yes they are episodes where Seven is the main focus, put especially in the latter episode, Chakotay makes up a great deal of the story too

                  Homestead - Neelix gets his own swang song episode.



                  I think that the writers could well be back on track now with
                  Enterprise, but feel that it all lost a little of it's momentum with
                  Voyager. Thankfully though Enterprise has found that momentum again.

                  Agreed. Voyager wasn't perfect, but it is by no means the terrible tat that its critics made it out to be. Enterpise first season IS superiror to Voyager's first, and all of the modern Trek's improve on the quality of its first season each time, so we must be in for a treat in the future

                  Dan



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                • Allyn Gibson
                  ... Why did the Borg -need- individuality? The premise of Q Who? was that the Borg were a hive mind, a collective consciousness created and maintained
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 1 1:51 PM
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                    mcfari wrote:

                    > However, I have to disagreee quite strongly with your
                    > statement about Voyager killing the Borg. If anything
                    > Voyager took the whole concept to another level. It
                    > showed that the Borg were far more complex than first
                    > revealed in TNG. Even in TNG, there was exploration of
                    > Borg individuality (Take a look at I,Borg and Descent
                    > 1 and 2)

                    Why did the Borg -need- individuality?

                    The premise of "Q Who?" was that the Borg were a hive mind, a
                    collective consciousness created and maintained through technological
                    means. Individual drones didn't matter and had no power. It was
                    through their combined mental and physical efforts that the Borg had
                    power.

                    The Borg mystique, for lack of a better word, centered on their
                    -totality-. Individuality was nothing compared to the weight of
                    trillions of minds linked and functioning as one. Giving the Borg
                    individuality negated that mystique by suggesting that a drone's mind
                    and personality could outweigh trillions of minds.

                    Was not the whole point of Picard's Borg arc that he was alive and
                    awake within Locutus but he was powerless to intervene and prevent the
                    depravities the Borg forced him to propagate and endure? He carried
                    those emotional scars for a -long- time; he killed thousands, he felt
                    their deaths, but couldn't stop himself.

                    If a Borg drone is self-aware to that extent, wouldn't assimilation
                    drive the mind insane? The drone is trapped in a body that doesn't
                    respond to its mental commands but instead follows the lure of a mind
                    elsewhere. And then, to be forced to witness the depravities of the
                    Borg assimilation process without being able to do anything to prevent
                    that, wouldn't that cause a personality to disintegrate?

                    (Needless to say, I've never been convinced that Seven is Annika
                    Hansen. She may -believe- that, she may have Annika's memories, but I
                    think it's far more likely she's a "sleeper" drone, created by the
                    Borg for the purpose of sabotaging the Federation, and "Annika"
                    provides a useful cover that isn't going to be questioned by one ship
                    alone on the fringe.)

                    Why do the Borg exist at all? Military project gone awry? Some
                    race's experiments out of control? To reach the next stage of
                    humanoid evolution? Why link humanoid minds? Perhaps as a kind of
                    distributed computing network, using wetware instead of hardware. I
                    wonder what Hans Moravec thinks of the Borg. He'd probably think they
                    didn't go far enough.

                    My problem with the Borg is that they were never weird -enough-. The
                    Borg weren't thought out well enough in advance, and once they started
                    putting a human face on the Borg they robbed the Borg of what made
                    them unique--the Borg's -lack- of individuality. Make the Borg
                    individuals, give them dream lives, etc., and you've just turned the
                    Borg from a faceless mass into really testy Klingons with a
                    techno-organic fetish. And really, what's the point of that?

                    Allyn http://www.allyngibson.net/
                    AIM: mknzycalhn ICQ: 4342396

                    Soft-sandaled feet press lightly on the stones
                    That cobble Lankhmar's mazy alleyways;
                    A grayish cloak melts in the river mist
                    That billowing with many a darting twist
                    Fumes round the corner from the nighted bays
                    To chill with sorcery men's blood and bones;
                    Only a bat whose sharp ears caught one sound
                    Knows that the Mouser is on business bound.
                    -- Fritz Leiber, "The Gray Mouser"
                  • mcfari
                    I m sure that the mass of the Borg still behave as they were originally invented to be. However, keep in mind that the Federation (and probably mostly Janeway
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 1 2:32 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I'm sure that the mass of the Borg still behave as they were
                      originally invented to be.

                      However, keep in mind that the Federation (and probably mostly
                      Janeway to be honest) were trying to stay alive. If they could use
                      any advantage against the Borg that they could then why wouldn't
                      they? If that meant using sparks of individuality then go for it.

                      The Borg in my mind was probably an experiment that went awry and
                      started sweeping up other races in its near unstoppable quest for
                      assimilation.

                      I don't see why we can't have that side of the Borg along with the
                      tiny factions that we've seen break away.

                      I think that the writers chose to put a different spin on the Borg
                      so that they would make a more interesting enemy. Otherwise, they'd
                      become really, really, really boring...like those dead red shirt
                      Security Officers they used to trundle out on different episodes of
                      TOS.


                      --- In startrekbooks@y..., Allyn Gibson <allyngibson@c...> wrote:
                      > mcfari wrote:
                      >
                      > > However, I have to disagreee quite strongly with your
                      > > statement about Voyager killing the Borg. If anything
                      > > Voyager took the whole concept to another level. It
                      > > showed that the Borg were far more complex than first
                      > > revealed in TNG. Even in TNG, there was exploration of
                      > > Borg individuality (Take a look at I,Borg and Descent
                      > > 1 and 2)
                      >
                      > Why did the Borg -need- individuality?
                      >
                      > The premise of "Q Who?" was that the Borg were a hive mind, a
                      > collective consciousness created and maintained through
                      technological
                      > means. Individual drones didn't matter and had no power. It was
                      > through their combined mental and physical efforts that the Borg
                      had
                      > power.
                      >
                      > The Borg mystique, for lack of a better word, centered on their
                      > -totality-. Individuality was nothing compared to the weight of
                      > trillions of minds linked and functioning as one. Giving the Borg
                      > individuality negated that mystique by suggesting that a drone's
                      mind
                      > and personality could outweigh trillions of minds.
                      >
                      > Was not the whole point of Picard's Borg arc that he was alive and
                      > awake within Locutus but he was powerless to intervene and prevent
                      the
                      > depravities the Borg forced him to propagate and endure? He
                      carried
                      > those emotional scars for a -long- time; he killed thousands, he
                      felt
                      > their deaths, but couldn't stop himself.
                      >
                      > If a Borg drone is self-aware to that extent, wouldn't assimilation
                      > drive the mind insane? The drone is trapped in a body that doesn't
                      > respond to its mental commands but instead follows the lure of a
                      mind
                      > elsewhere. And then, to be forced to witness the depravities of
                      the
                      > Borg assimilation process without being able to do anything to
                      prevent
                      > that, wouldn't that cause a personality to disintegrate?
                      >
                      > (Needless to say, I've never been convinced that Seven is Annika
                      > Hansen. She may -believe- that, she may have Annika's memories,
                      but I
                      > think it's far more likely she's a "sleeper" drone, created by the
                      > Borg for the purpose of sabotaging the Federation, and "Annika"
                      > provides a useful cover that isn't going to be questioned by one
                      ship
                      > alone on the fringe.)
                      >
                      > Why do the Borg exist at all? Military project gone awry? Some
                      > race's experiments out of control? To reach the next stage of
                      > humanoid evolution? Why link humanoid minds? Perhaps as a kind of
                      > distributed computing network, using wetware instead of hardware.
                      I
                      > wonder what Hans Moravec thinks of the Borg. He'd probably think
                      they
                      > didn't go far enough.
                      >
                      > My problem with the Borg is that they were never weird -enough-.
                      The
                      > Borg weren't thought out well enough in advance, and once they
                      started
                      > putting a human face on the Borg they robbed the Borg of what made
                      > them unique--the Borg's -lack- of individuality. Make the Borg
                      > individuals, give them dream lives, etc., and you've just turned
                      the
                      > Borg from a faceless mass into really testy Klingons with a
                      > techno-organic fetish. And really, what's the point of that?
                      >
                      > Allyn
                      http://www.allyngibson.net/
                      > AIM: mknzycalhn ICQ:
                      4342396
                      >
                      > Soft-sandaled feet press lightly on the stones
                      > That cobble Lankhmar's mazy alleyways;
                      > A grayish cloak melts in the river mist
                      > That billowing with many a darting twist
                      > Fumes round the corner from the nighted bays
                      > To chill with sorcery men's blood and bones;
                      > Only a bat whose sharp ears caught one sound
                      > Knows that the Mouser is on business bound.
                      > -- Fritz Leiber, "The Gray Mouser"
                    • madewan
                      Thanks for your input Dan, I just wanted to post that last message of mine on the matter, mainly because I wanted you all to see that in spite of my feelings
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 1 3:00 PM
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                        Thanks for your input Dan,

                        I just wanted to post that last message of mine on the matter, mainly
                        because I wanted you all to see that in spite of my feelings on
                        Voyager, I do have justification for my problems with the show.

                        I did not want to pass my self off as one of the typical I hate
                        Voyager critics that you run into everyday.

                        And you are right all the shows had a weakness in effect. To many DS9
                        started out as initially pretty stagnent because they were not going
                        boldly enough for Trek fans.

                        With TNG well TNG had pretty much the hardest job because it needed
                        the help of Treks existing fan base in order for it to succeed. And
                        one of the problems with the early TNG episodes was that in a way it
                        mimmiced what had already been done on TOS I.E the episode 'The Naked
                        Now' which was a copy of sorts of 'The Naked Time'. In fact you could
                        call the Enterprise Episode 'Strange New Worlds' a sort of homage to
                        those two episodes, the only difference being that it was set on a
                        planet and the crew started to see things that were not there as
                        apposed to being intoxicated.
                      • April Payne
                        What s wrong with having your three strongest characters up front in a tv show? Kirk, Spock and McCoy were the front runners in Star Trek, with all the other
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 2 7:25 AM
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                          What's wrong with having your three strongest characters up front in a tv show? Kirk, Spock and McCoy were the front runners in Star Trek, with all the other characters as supporting cast. Every now and again a storyline would highlight one of these supporting characters, but usually the top triune played the major roles. Not all shows lend themselves to an ensemble cast, where everyone is considered a lead. Friends pulls this off well, but even in shows like ER, you have a lead character(s), Dr.'s Green, Carter and Weaver. The rest are supporting cast. By the way, supporting characters are essential, lest anyone think I'm demeaning them in any way. If it weren't so, why bother to give an oscar for the Best Supporting Actor or Actress? Just a thought.
                          So, if TNG and Voy eventually moved to this format, is was most likely because in a time-honored tradition, there is usually a couple of lead characters in any media and then the rest are supporting cast. Personally, I think this formula works the best, otherwise it tends to get soap-operish in style, imho.
                          April
                          April
                          Daniel Adams wrote:





                          As for the Borg episodes, well the borgs downfall to me started with
                          First Contact, but Voyager killed the Borg. To me the borg were more
                          of a fearsome race when they assilulated without making an advance
                          press statement on the matter. Sure the Borg Queen was pretty good in
                          her role, but it would have been a whole lot more dramatic and a lot
                          more ftightening if the Borg were less concerned with communication
                          and making there plans known and just got on with it

                          *****DAN SAYS*****

                          Granted, The borg were pretty much castrated on Voyager,



                          Voyager had a chance with Speices whatever the numbers lol, but they
                          even blunted their edge. Overall Voyager to me will remain the
                          weakest Trek show. I mean what happened to the other characters,
                          before Seven of Nine came along other characters such as Torress,
                          Paris and Chakotay were developing really nicely. But after Seven
                          came into the show a majority of the episodes revolved around Seven,
                          The EHM and Janeway. It was almost as if the writers were unsure of
                          which path to follow.


                          *****DAN SAYS*****

                          I admit, they are the three character which have been pushed to the fore, but only because they are the three most popular. TNG did a similar kind of thing - it seemed as if many of the episodes revolved around either Picard, Worf or Data.

                          But just take the 7th season of Voyager and there are a great deal of episodes which focus on other characters -

                          Drive - the one where Tom and Belanna got married

                          Repression - a Tuvok centred epsiode

                          Nightingale - Garret Wang takes centre stage as Kim

                          Lineage - Torres again

                          Prophecy - Paris and Torres

                          Human Error and Natural Law - yes they are episodes where Seven is the main focus, put especially in the latter episode, Chakotay makes up a great deal of the story too

                          Homestead - Neelix gets his own swang song episode.



                          I think that the writers could well be back on track now with
                          Enterprise, but feel that it all lost a little of it's momentum with
                          Voyager. Thankfully though Enterprise has found that momentum again.

                          Agreed. Voyager wasn't perfect, but it is by no means the terrible tat that its critics made it out to be. Enterpise first season IS superiror to Voyager's first, and all of the modern Trek's improve on the quality of its first season each time, so we must be in for a treat in the future

                          Dan



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                        • don hallenbeck
                          ... there:             ...
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 2 8:38 AM
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                            --- Staci Hapdock <spaci1701@...> wrote:
                            > <P> I'd love to have seen just about any of Peter
                            > David's work on screen.  The chase scene in
                            > Q-In-Law would make TV history!!!
                            > <P>Spaci
                            > <P>  <B><I>Daniel Adams
                            > <dankind33@...></I></B> wrote:
                            > <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
                            > 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT><BR>Hmmm,
                            > good discussion.  Anything where there is a
                            > full
                            > blown crossover is always film gold  - the
                            > Shatner Novels, the Invasion series, and like has
                            > been
                            > previously said, the Avatar Novels. 
                            > <BR>Personally, I think that the DS9 could benefited
                            > from mini-series or a series of TV movies that took
                            > place after the finale.  But hey, we have
                            > Avatar
                            > novels, so its all good.  another key problem
                            > is
                            > that the Actors move on to other projects
                            > after 
                            > series end, so for example, a Voyager TV movie might
                            > be difficult because Jeri Ryan is under contract to
                            > Boston Public.  Or stars want to avoid
                            > typecasting and may not reprise their character even
                            > on a semi-regular basis (although it didn't bother
                            > Michael Dorn, who has 10 years of Trek TV time under
                            > his belt).  <BR>Anyway, other novels I'd like
                            > to
                            > see as TV shows:<BR>Fallen Heroes (DS9)<BR>The
                            > entire
                            > New Frontier series<BR>The millenium
                            > trilogy<BR>___<BR>Dan<BR>mcfari wrote:I do agree
                            > with
                            > the whole Books and Television thing. Pretty much
                            > <BR>all of the DS9 relaunch novels fall into that
                            > category. <BR>Millenium would have made a fantastic
                            > film! (So would Shatner's 'The <BR>Return that he co
                            > wrote with the Reeves Stevenses. The Borg stuff
                            > <BR>was phenomenal! Sadly, his books essentially
                            > fall
                            > outside of <BR>established Trek continuity). I've
                            > always thought that the Trek <BR>Movie scripts never
                            > rose to the epics that they could have
                            > become.<BR><BR>Who can forget the books: Vendetta,
                            > Q-Squared, Federation (before it <BR>got ruined by
                            > First Contact), The 34th Rule, Section 31:
                            > Rogue.<BR>I'm sure there are others too. I agree
                            > with
                            > your statement about <BR>Peter David as well. I'm
                            > not
                            > into Dean Wesley Smith as much. I think <BR>that
                            > Peter
                            > David hits the spirit of the characters far more
                            > squarely <BR>than Dean and he does it with style and
                            > humor.<BR><BR>By the way, I still hate when folks
                            > knock Voyager because I thought <BR>that there were
                            > quite a few good episodes in
                            >
                            there:<BR>           
                            >
                            Counterpoint<BR>           
                            >
                            Unity<BR>           
                            >
                            Scorpion<BR>           
                            > Dark
                            >
                            Frontier<BR>           
                            >
                            Macrocosm<BR>           
                            >
                            Resolutions<BR>           
                            >
                            Basics<BR>           
                            > Scientific
                            >
                            Method<BR>           
                            > Timeless I and
                            >
                            II<BR>           
                            > Year Of Hell Pt
                            >
                            II<BR>           
                            > Endgame<BR>There are others too but I can't remember
                            > them right now. Kate <BR>Mulgrew played the role of
                            > a
                            > female Starfleet Captain to perfection.<BR>Also,
                            > they
                            > gave Jeri Ryan some episodes where she
                            > shone.<BR><BR>The reason why DS9 edges out Voyager
                            > in
                            > my opinion) was due to the <BR>Dominion War and the
                            > 4th Season Klingon vs. Federation storyline.
                            > <BR>These
                            > provided a sharper and darker edge to the series
                            > that
                            > seared <BR>certain images into my
                            > head.<BR><BR>Enterprise appears fresher (and I like
                            > it) because they make the pre-<BR>TOS stuff look
                            > interesting and believable even though newer special
                            > <BR>effects technology and makeup adavancements far
                            > surpass what we had <BR>in the 60's.<BR><BR>--- In
                            > startrekbooks@y..., madewan <no_reply@y...>
                            > wrote:<BR>> Hi all,<BR>> <BR>> Am just
                            > wondering what your thoughts are on certain Star
                            > Trek
                            > <BR>books <BR>> actually being good enough to
                            > make
                            > a crossover as it were into the <BR>> actual Tv
                            > shows on which they are based.<BR>> <BR>> Over
                            > the years I have actually read quite a number of
                            > Star
                            > Trek <BR>books <BR>> ranging from Tos to TNG. In
                            > fact I recently read the Deep Space <BR>Nine
                            > <BR>>
                            > Avaitor series and thought that those books would
                            > have
                            > made a <BR>great <BR>> three part episode of
                            > DS9.<BR>> <BR>> In fact I would go as far as
                            > to
                            > say that a lot of the books based <BR>in <BR>> or
                            > around the Star Trek universe could potentially make
                            > better <BR>> episodes than the ones we are
                            > getting.
                            > Thus far am pretty happy <BR>with <BR>> the way
                            > Enterprise is going, but I really though at times
                            > that
                            > <BR>> Voyager needed some new original material.
                            > <BR>> <BR>> My favorate Trek writers are Peter
                            > David, Dean Wesley Smith and <BR>> Michael Jan
                            > Friedman. In fact a majority of my Star Trek
                            > <BR>collection <BR>> of books are by those
                            > writers.
                            > I think the reason is that they <BR>> captore
                            > what
                            > I call the true spirit of Star Trek but also add
                            > <BR>their <BR>> own elements without it being to
                            > invasive on the storie.<BR><BR><BR>Yahoo! Groups
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                            === message truncated ===
                            =======================================================Hey,
                            Spaci, something got lost in the Universal translater
                            here. most your post was gibberish. I would like to an
                            episode dealing with the beginings of the Borg,i.e.,
                            were they a military experiment got sour or what. Hope
                            you all had a safe & sane holiday. Don H. The Flash

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                          • spaci1701
                            Hopefully, that s a bit better. It occasionally doesn t seem to like some of us who post in from email. Staci Hapdock wrote: I d love to have
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 2 10:22 AM
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                              Hopefully, that's a bit better. It occasionally doesn't seem to like
                              some of us who post in from email.

                              Staci Hapdock <spaci1701@y...> wrote:
                              I'd love to have seen just about any of Peter David's work on screen.
                              The chase scene in Q-In-Law would make TV history!!!
                              Spaci
                            • madewan
                              ... like ... screen. ... Yes that chase scene was funny as hell. I think that Davids one and only venture into the Deep Space Nine novels would make a great
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 2 11:14 AM
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                                --- In startrekbooks@y..., "spaci1701" <spaci1701@y...> wrote:
                                > Hopefully, that's a bit better. It occasionally doesn't seem to
                                like
                                > some of us who post in from email.
                                >
                                > Staci Hapdock <spaci1701@y...> wrote:
                                > I'd love to have seen just about any of Peter David's work on
                                screen.
                                > The chase scene in Q-In-Law would make TV history!!!
                                > Spaci

                                Yes that chase scene was funny as hell. I think that Davids one and
                                only venture into the Deep Space Nine novels would make a great
                                episode. The one with the red changeling.

                                Also there was a TNG book that he Wrote called 'First Strike' I think
                                it was called, that was the first TNG book I ever read and at the
                                time I had no idea who Peter David was, but I remember being totally
                                sucked into the storie.
                              • mcfari
                                First Strike was excellent. I think it involved a race known as the Kreel who were one of the most hated foes of the Kilngon s. Another good early David TNG
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 2 12:32 PM
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                                  First Strike was excellent.

                                  I think it involved a race known as the Kreel who were one of the
                                  most hated foes of the Kilngon's.

                                  Another good early David TNG book: A Rock and a Hard place with that
                                  weird replacement first officer named Stone. ;->

                                  Reminded me a lot of David's later Mackenzie Calhoun character
                                  actually.

                                  --- In startrekbooks@y..., madewan <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In startrekbooks@y..., "spaci1701" <spaci1701@y...> wrote:
                                  > > Hopefully, that's a bit better. It occasionally doesn't seem to
                                  > like
                                  > > some of us who post in from email.
                                  > >
                                  > > Staci Hapdock <spaci1701@y...> wrote:
                                  > > I'd love to have seen just about any of Peter David's work on
                                  > screen.
                                  > > The chase scene in Q-In-Law would make TV history!!!
                                  > > Spaci
                                  >
                                  > Yes that chase scene was funny as hell. I think that Davids one
                                  and
                                  > only venture into the Deep Space Nine novels would make a great
                                  > episode. The one with the red changeling.
                                  >
                                  > Also there was a TNG book that he Wrote called 'First Strike' I
                                  think
                                  > it was called, that was the first TNG book I ever read and at the
                                  > time I had no idea who Peter David was, but I remember being
                                  totally
                                  > sucked into the storie.
                                • albeshiloh
                                  ... Gateways ... by ... Thanks so much! I had a great time writing the Hirogen/Jem Hadar fight in DEMONS... Keith R.A. DeCandido keith@decandido.net
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 2 7:23 PM
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                                    > P.S. Keith DeCandido loved the Hirogen characters to make one of
                                    > them an important presence in the DS9 contributution to the
                                    Gateways
                                    > crossover last year. This was another great alien race introduced
                                    by
                                    > Voyager.

                                    Thanks so much! I had a great time writing the Hirogen/Jem'Hadar
                                    fight in DEMONS... <grin>


                                    Keith R.A. DeCandido
                                    keith@...
                                    www.decandido.net
                                  • ELIZABETH ROWE
                                    I would ve loved to seen Prime Directive made into a movie. The novel s in the vein of the original series. Sadly that can never be. And Dark Mirror as well.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 4 8:21 AM
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                                      I would've loved to seen Prime Directive made into a movie. The novel's in the vein of the original series. Sadly that can never be. And Dark Mirror as well. An evil Troi would've given Marina Sirtis something different to play around with.

                                      Juliet


                                      Daniel Adams wrote:
                                      Hmmm, good discussion. Anything where there is a full blown crossover is always film gold - the Shatner Novels, the Invasion series, and like has been previously said, the Avatar Novels.
                                      Personally, I think that the DS9 could benefited from mini-series or a series of TV movies that took place after the finale. But hey, we have Avatar novels, so its all good. another key problem is that the Actors move on to other projects after series end, so for example, a Voyager TV movie might be difficult because Jeri Ryan is under contract to Boston Public. Or stars want to avoid typecasting and may not reprise their character even on a semi-regular basis (although it didn't bother Michael Dorn, who has 10 years of Trek TV time under his belt).
                                      Anyway, other novels I'd like to see as TV shows:
                                      Fallen Heroes (DS9)
                                      The entire New Frontier series
                                      The millenium trilogy
                                      ___
                                      Dan
                                      mcfari wrote:I do agree with the whole Books and Television thing. Pretty much
                                      all of the DS9 relaunch novels fall into that category.
                                      Millenium would have made a fantastic film! (So would Shatner's 'The
                                      Return that he co wrote with the Reeves Stevenses. The Borg stuff
                                      was phenomenal! Sadly, his books essentially fall outside of
                                      established Trek continuity). I've always thought that the Trek
                                      Movie scripts never rose to the epics that they could have become.

                                      Who can forget the books: Vendetta, Q-Squared, Federation (before it
                                      got ruined by First Contact), The 34th Rule, Section 31: Rogue.
                                      I'm sure there are others too. I agree with your statement about
                                      Peter David as well. I'm not into Dean Wesley Smith as much. I think
                                      that Peter David hits the spirit of the characters far more squarely
                                      than Dean and he does it with style and humor.

                                      By the way, I still hate when folks knock Voyager because I thought
                                      that there were quite a few good episodes in there:
                                      Counterpoint
                                      Unity
                                      Scorpion
                                      Dark Frontier
                                      Macrocosm
                                      Resolutions
                                      Basics
                                      Scientific Method
                                      Timeless I and II
                                      Year Of Hell Pt II
                                      Endgame
                                      There are others too but I can't remember them right now. Kate
                                      Mulgrew played the role of a female Starfleet Captain to perfection.
                                      Also, they gave Jeri Ryan some episodes where she shone.

                                      The reason why DS9 edges out Voyager in my opinion) was due to the
                                      Dominion War and the 4th Season Klingon vs. Federation storyline.
                                      These provided a sharper and darker edge to the series that seared
                                      certain images into my head.

                                      Enterprise appears fresher (and I like it) because they make the pre-
                                      TOS stuff look interesting and believable even though newer special
                                      effects technology and makeup adavancements far surpass what we had
                                      in the 60's.

                                      --- In startrekbooks@y..., madewan <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      > Hi all,
                                      >
                                      > Am just wondering what your thoughts are on certain Star Trek
                                      books
                                      > actually being good enough to make a crossover as it were into the
                                      > actual Tv shows on which they are based.
                                      >
                                      > Over the years I have actually read quite a number of Star Trek
                                      books
                                      > ranging from Tos to TNG. In fact I recently read the Deep Space
                                      Nine
                                      > Avaitor series and thought that those books would have made a
                                      great
                                      > three part episode of DS9.
                                      >
                                      > In fact I would go as far as to say that a lot of the books based
                                      in
                                      > or around the Star Trek universe could potentially make better
                                      > episodes than the ones we are getting. Thus far am pretty happy
                                      with
                                      > the way Enterprise is going, but I really though at times that
                                      > Voyager needed some new original material.
                                      >
                                      > My favorate Trek writers are Peter David, Dean Wesley Smith and
                                      > Michael Jan Friedman. In fact a majority of my Star Trek
                                      collection
                                      > of books are by those writers. I think the reason is that they
                                      > captore what I call the true spirit of Star Trek but also add
                                      their
                                      > own elements without it being to invasive on the storie.


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