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Re: [Star Trek Books] Reap the Whirlwind is out now

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  • Jackie Bundy
    Reap the Whirlwind is still on order for me but I m behind anyways. I particularly want to find out what s happening next in this series though. so when I get
    Message 1 of 23 , May 13, 2007
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      Reap the Whirlwind is still on order for me but I'm
      behind anyways. I particularly want to find out what's
      happening next in this series though. so when I get
      it, I'll likely just dive right in.

      I just got Epiphany and hope to start that tomorrow.

      I suspect much of what will happen in the final volume
      of Vulcans Soul so I want to see if I'm right.

      Jackie

      --- royboogie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      > Mine came in the mail today. Looking forward to it.
    • yahoo42@comcast.net
      ... Using an iPod to read books would be a rather bad idea. The screen is way too small and the formats the books come in are not compatible. If you don t mind
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1 12:28 AM
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        At 04:05 PM 3/2/2007, you wrote:

        >Does anyone know if there is an ereader available for the IPod, I'd
        >hate to have to purchase something else that wouled duplicate all
        >those features. Thanks Bob

        Using an iPod to read books would be a rather bad idea. The screen is
        way too small and the formats the books come in are not compatible.
        If you don't mind reading your books on your computer, laptop, or
        other luggable able to run Windows, I suggest Microsoft Reader(LIT)
        format. if you have a palm with a large enough screen for you then
        get the palm (PDB) version. But in any case, stay away from the Adobe
        (PDF) format. It's going to be the worst one for your reading enjoyment.

        Jon


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      • Jackie Bundy
        I use the Palm aka ereader on my handheld and have never had any reason to be unhappy with it. I tried Microsoft reader and found it a pain to redownload
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 1 9:19 AM
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          I use the Palm aka ereader on my handheld and have
          never had any reason to be unhappy with it.

          I tried Microsoft reader and found it a pain to
          redownload things where as the ereader is a breeze.

          One of my favorite things about eBooks is the ability
          to change the font and size of the font.

          Jackie

          --- yahoo42@... wrote:

          > At 04:05 PM 3/2/2007, you wrote:
          >
          > >Does anyone know if there is an ereader available
          > for the IPod, I'd
          > >hate to have to purchase something else that wouled
          > duplicate all
          > >those features. Thanks Bob
          >
          > Using an iPod to read books would be a rather bad
          > idea. The screen is
          > way too small and the formats the books come in are
          > not compatible.
          > If you don't mind reading your books on your
          > computer, laptop, or
          > other luggable able to run Windows, I suggest
          > Microsoft Reader(LIT)
          > format. if you have a palm with a large enough
          > screen for you then
          > get the palm (PDB) version. But in any case, stay
          > away from the Adobe
          > (PDF) format. It's going to be the worst one for
          > your reading enjoyment.
        • lonereconeagle
          Its funny you should write that, Jackie. Last week i had a long talk with the Border Books employee in charge of the SciFi section. A few things came to light.
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 2 7:46 AM
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            Its funny you should write that, Jackie.

            Last week i had a long talk with the Border Books employee in charge
            of the SciFi section. A few things came to light. First, because of
            the difficulty of having regular scifi book in alphabeticaly order by
            last name followed by series in alphabetical order, Borders has
            decided to move all novel series into the mix. So instead of going to
            the end of the scifi rows and looking for Star Trek, it now will be
            between Stackpole and Tolkein. Second, the reason store are low on
            Trek books and high on Star Wars books is due to previous 12 month
            sales and returns to the publisher. When Borders orders the next Trek
            novel, they look at the sales from each Trek novel from the past 12
            months & their returns to the publisher and then decide how little to
            order. Sometime they arrive on date from the Borders warehouse and
            sometimes they arrive days late. As for Star Wars, Borders says they
            cannot keep new Star Wars books in stock and they always over order
            them and display them at the front door so that they can sell the
            most they can. Third, TPTB at Borders have told their employees that
            within the next decade, there will be no more book stores and they
            all will be out of jobs. The reason? eBooks will take over the market
            and people will only have that choice in book format.

            How does this tie-in with your quote? My dad is in his mid 60s. He
            likes reading, but cant find large print books that he wants to buy
            (BTW, large print is either 11 reg, 13 reg, or 16 BOLD font). When
            was the last time you saw a MMPB, large print of Louis L'Amour?
            Never. That publishing group only prints HB, large print books. My
            dad cannot afford the prices of HB books. And there are have been no
            releases of eBooks by that author.

            Summing it up, according to the Borders PTB MMPB and HB books are on
            their way out and eNovels/eBooks will be the future.

            Next time, digital eMovies and eTV shows. How George Lucas believes
            that DVDs (regular, HD, and Blu-Ray) are on their way out and how
            digital downloads of movies and TV series is the wave of the future.


            ==Russell Nash==


            --- In startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com, Jackie Bundy wrote:

            One of my favorite things about eBooks is the ability to change the
            font and size of the font.

            Jackie
          • Allyn Gibson
            ... I don t think I ve laughed so hard in my life. :) Books are -not- going away. Books have endured for thousands of years. As long as there are people,
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 2 8:09 AM
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              On Saturday, June 2, 2007, Russell wrote:

              > Third, TPTB at Borders have told their employees that
              > within the next decade, there will be no more book stores
              > and they all will be out of jobs. The reason? eBooks will
              > take over the market and people will only have that choice
              > in book format.

              I don't think I've laughed so hard in my life. :)

              Books are -not- going away. Books have endured for thousands of
              years. As long as there are people, there will be books.

              I can't imagine reading a children's book as an eBook, for instance.
              There are a lot of books--art books, computer books, what have
              you--that simply won't -work- as eBooks.

              eBooks are not going to take over the market unless there's a
              sea-change in the way publishers treat eBooks and in the technology to
              deliver them and read them. Right now the pricing structure on eBooks
              is the greatest obstacle to their uptake for those who have the
              technology.

              We're certainly going to see changes in the book industry over the
              next decade, just as we've seen changes in the past decade as
              publishers have transitioned from the mass-market format to the trade
              format for more and more releases. In the next decade we'll
              see more done in the print-on-demand format, a change that may not be
              useful to the brick-and-mortar stores.

              But eBooks are not going to make bookstores go away. Because there
              will -always- be books to sell.

              And -no- company is going to tell its employees that their company
              will be out of business in ten years.

              Allyn http://www.allyngibson.net/

              "There are parts of the wood," said Doctor Pooh, "where the leaves
              have turned a burning orange... rivers made of sticks, into which
              people drop water... people made of scales, and burrows made of
              stone... Somewhere there's bother. Somewhere there's a spot of
              nuisance... and somewhere else, the hunny's getting cold!"
              -- Doctor Pooh
            • April Payne
              ... that DVDs (regular, HD, and Blu-Ray) are on their way out and how digital downloads of movies and TV series is the wave of the future.
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 2 9:23 AM
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                >>>>Next time, digital eMovies and eTV shows. How George Lucas believes
                that DVDs (regular, HD, and Blu-Ray) are on their way out and how
                digital downloads of movies and TV series is the wave of the future.<<<<


                But I don't watch movies on my computer! I like sitting comfortably in my livingroom/home theater with the surround sound and the widescreen HDTV. Growl, growl, grumble, grumble.






                ~april


                "I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once!"




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              • Allyn Gibson
                ... I should ve scrolled down further. :) There are three problems with this. First, the net infrastructure -isn t- there yet. The pipelines, as they exist
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 2 4:44 PM
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                  On Saturday, June 2, 2007, Russell wrote:

                  > Next time, digital eMovies and eTV shows. How George Lucas
                  > believes that DVDs (regular, HD, and Blu-Ray) are on their
                  > way out and how digital downloads of movies and TV series
                  > is the wave of the future.

                  I should've scrolled down further. :)

                  There are three problems with this.

                  First, the 'net infrastructure -isn't- there yet. The pipelines, as
                  they exist now, aren't made to handle the traffic that would entail.

                  Second, DVDs really -won't- be going away, because there are going to
                  be people who simply -won't- be able to take advantage of digital
                  downloads, either because of location or because of ludditism. Which
                  puts the studios at cross-purposes with the retail outlets. Studios
                  are cutting out the middleman, basically, and it'll be interesting to
                  see if, say, Wal-Mart takes on Hollywood in the halls of Congress if
                  the studios threaten their business by undercutting the prices they
                  can offer and receive a better margin (because there's nothing to
                  manufacture and there's no retailer wanting their own cut of the pie).

                  Third, a move toward digital downloads would be welcomed by the
                  studios (just as the record labels like iTunes) because of Digital
                  Rights Management. It's another step toward the model where the
                  consumer doesn't buy the product but buys a -license- to use the
                  product. It's a question of control, and I'm not sure that consumers
                  today are ready for a model where the companies who provide the
                  content would have the level of control they'd want over the content.
                  Copyright versus privacy, basically.

                  As with books, I don't see physical media disappearing for films and
                  television shows. :)

                  Allyn http://www.allyngibson.net/

                  In all the history of mankind, there will be only one generation
                  that will be first to explore the Solar System, one generation for
                  which, in childhood, the planets are distant and indistinct discs
                  moving through the night sky, and for which, in old age, the
                  planets are places, diverse new worlds in the course of
                  exploration.
                  -- Carl Sagan, The Cosmic Connection
                • sweetonbones
                  ... Trek ... to ... ______________________ This is why Amazon is so successful. I ve gotten several Trek books at Borers but if I can t find what I want I shop
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 3 11:14 AM
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                    --- In startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com, "lonereconeagle"
                    <lonereconeagle@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Second, the reason store are low on
                    > Trek books and high on Star Wars books is due to previous 12 month
                    > sales and returns to the publisher. When Borders orders the next
                    Trek
                    > novel, they look at the sales from each Trek novel from the past 12
                    > months & their returns to the publisher and then decide how little
                    to
                    > order. Sometime they arrive on date from the Borders warehouse and
                    > sometimes they arrive days late. As for Star Wars, Borders says they
                    > cannot keep new Star Wars books in stock and they always over order
                    > them and display them at the front door so that they can sell the
                    > most they can.

                    ______________________

                    This is why Amazon is so successful. I've gotten several Trek books at
                    Borers but if I can't find what I want I shop Amazon. I just purchased
                    to Shatner books from Powells the other day also. Ebooks will never
                    replace hard copy.
                  • Jackie Bundy
                    ... Funny, I work for Borders and our store doesn t work like that. For example the new Vanguard novel is prominent on the new paperback display along with
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 3 11:38 AM
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                      --- lonereconeagle <lonereconeagle@...> wrote:

                      > Its funny you should write that, Jackie.
                      >
                      > Last week i had a long talk with the Border Books
                      > employee in charge
                      > of the SciFi section. A few things came to light.
                      > First, because of
                      > the difficulty of having regular scifi book in
                      > alphabeticaly order by
                      > last name followed by series in alphabetical order,
                      > Borders has
                      > decided to move all novel series into the mix. So
                      > instead of going to
                      > the end of the scifi rows and looking for Star Trek,
                      > it now will be
                      > between Stackpole and Tolkein. Second, the reason
                      > store are low on
                      > Trek books and high on Star Wars books is due to
                      > previous 12 month
                      > sales and returns to the publisher. When Borders
                      > orders the next Trek
                      > novel, they look at the sales from each Trek novel
                      > from the past 12
                      > months & their returns to the publisher and then
                      > decide how little to
                      > order. Sometime they arrive on date from the Borders
                      > warehouse and
                      > sometimes they arrive days late. As for Star Wars,
                      > Borders says they
                      > cannot keep new Star Wars books in stock and they
                      > always over order
                      > them and display them at the front door so that they
                      > can sell the
                      > most they can. Third, TPTB at Borders have told
                      > their employees that
                      > within the next decade, there will be no more book
                      > stores and they
                      > all will be out of jobs. The reason? eBooks will
                      > take over the market
                      > and people will only have that choice in book
                      > format.

                      Funny, I work for Borders and our store doesn't work
                      like that. For example the new Vanguard novel is
                      prominent on the new paperback display along with
                      other SciFi titles.

                      >
                      > How does this tie-in with your quote? My dad is in
                      > his mid 60s. He
                      > likes reading, but cant find large print books that
                      > he wants to buy
                      > (BTW, large print is either 11 reg, 13 reg, or 16
                      > BOLD font). When
                      > was the last time you saw a MMPB, large print of
                      > Louis L'Amour?
                      > Never. That publishing group only prints HB, large
                      > print books. My
                      > dad cannot afford the prices of HB books. And there
                      > are have been no
                      > releases of eBooks by that author.

                      Your Dad might want to approach the public library for
                      help. There are several publishers who reprint titles
                      in large print for libraries. Even if your closest
                      library doesn't carry the titles he's looking for they
                      should be able to order them for him.

                      Jackie
                    • yahoo42@comcast.net
                      ... Why would you have to redownload if you went with Microsoft Reader? I have a Sony Reader and I can purchase books either in the Sony s native BBeB (LRF)
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 3 12:46 PM
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                        At 12:19 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote:

                        >I use the Palm aka ereader on my handheld and have
                        >never had any reason to be unhappy with it.
                        >
                        >I tried Microsoft reader and found it a pain to
                        >redownload things where as the ereader is a breeze.
                        >
                        >One of my favorite things about eBooks is the ability
                        >to change the font and size of the font.
                        >
                        >Jackie

                        Why would you have to redownload if you went with Microsoft Reader?

                        I have a Sony Reader and I can purchase books either in the Sony's
                        native BBeB (LRF) format or LIT format and convert. There are some
                        very good tools available for getting content into LRF format. I've
                        been reading the S.C.E series that I've purchased in LIT format. I
                        have yet to purchase the CoE series yet. Might wait and see if Simon
                        & Schuster do another ebook sale by the time I've gotten that far
                        yet. I just finished the equivalent of the paper book
                        [i]Aftermath[/i]. And I have to read the [i]Mere Anarchy[/i] series.
                        I have the first 3 books in LIT format. I just loaded the first one
                        on my Reader. But all in all, I do like being able to take ebooks and
                        go portable. There are a LOT of very good ebooks I can convert for my
                        Reader without much hassle. With the Sony Reader, you can change the
                        font size.


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                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                      • Jackie Bundy
                        I once had my computer die with lots of eBook files on it. Microsoft was a pain when I wanted to redownload them. You can return to a site you ve bought
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 3 7:03 PM
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                          I once had my computer die with lots of eBook files on
                          it. Microsoft was a pain when I wanted to redownload
                          them.

                          You can return to a site you've bought eBooks from and
                          download them again for free if you've lost your
                          files. I lost the first 24 SCE books plus a lot of
                          other titles.

                          With Palm redownloading is a breeze.

                          Jackie

                          --- yahoo42@... wrote:

                          > At 12:19 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >I use the Palm aka ereader on my handheld and have
                          > >never had any reason to be unhappy with it.
                          > >
                          > >I tried Microsoft reader and found it a pain to
                          > >redownload things where as the ereader is a breeze.
                          > >
                          > >One of my favorite things about eBooks is the
                          > ability
                          > >to change the font and size of the font.
                          > >
                          > >Jackie
                          >
                          > Why would you have to redownload if you went with
                          > Microsoft Reader?
                        • James Sorensen
                          I have to chime in with another perspective. I have a library in my basement with over 6000 books. I take great joy and pride in my books and they are my
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 4 3:22 PM
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                            I have to chime in with another perspective. I have a library in my basement with over 6000 books. I take great joy and pride in my books and they are my greatest material possessions. Yes, I have every book of Star Trek fiction that has been published ( except for the Young Adult books- I'm working on them ) and they take center stage. My point is that ebooks do not look so good on a shelf. And although ebook readership is growing, it is doing so very slowly. Publishers Weekly as reported more ebook companies going out of business than those starting up. I do agree that this format will continue to grow, but there will always be people like me that want to see their books on a shelf rather than looking for their books in the last place they tossed the lastest e-reader they purchased. Too many want to feel the wieght of the books in their hands and the expectation of turning the next page. Besides as long as there is a buck to be made someone will publish them and
                            someone else will sell them even if we have to go to Amazon to buy them.

                            Jim
                            April Payne <april_anastasia@...> wrote:
                            >>>>Next time, digital eMovies and eTV shows. How George Lucas believes
                            that DVDs (regular, HD, and Blu-Ray) are on their way out and how
                            digital downloads of movies and TV series is the wave of the future.<<<<


                            But I don't watch movies on my computer! I like sitting comfortably in my livingroom/home theater with the surround sound and the widescreen HDTV. Growl, growl, grumble, grumble.



                            ~april


                            "I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once!"

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                          • Matthew Goff
                            ... market ... [M_I_GOFF] Not bloody likely. Any poor smuck receiving social security as their only income can afford to buy an occassional book, but
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 4 8:26 PM
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                              --- In startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com, "lonereconeagle"
                              <lonereconeagle@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > within the next decade, there will be no more book stores and they
                              > all will be out of jobs. The reason? eBooks will take over the
                              market
                              > and people will only have that choice in book format.

                              [M_I_GOFF]
                              Not bloody likely. Any poor smuck receiving social security as their
                              only income can afford to buy an occassional book, but surprisingly
                              less than 50 pecent of americans actually own a computer. I know
                              this comes as a shock that anyone could be so primitive as to not
                              have internet access but that is a fact.
                              Those who do not have internet access will always continue to buy
                              books.


                              > Next time, digital eMovies and eTV shows. How George Lucas believes
                              > that DVDs (regular, HD, and Blu-Ray) are on their way out and how
                              > digital downloads of movies and TV series is the wave of the future.


                              it is possible that digital downloads will show an increase but they
                              will never completely replace DVD's.

                              First, as April says, even one person watching alone might choose the
                              comfort of watching from the sofa with the surround sound
                              entertainment system over sitting in a stiff chair leaning over a
                              computer keyboards.

                              second, imagine gathering your family of five or more, or even a
                              large group of friends together for movie night. Are five people
                              going to crowd together leaning over one another huddling together
                              hanging off each other to watch a movie on a small computer screen.
                              Wouldn't it be a lot easier all sitting around a TV to watch a movie
                              on DVd.
                            • Steve Roby
                              ... The reason stores have a lot of Star Wars books is because they sell a lot of Star Wars books. Star Wars books sell a lot more copies than Star Trek books.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 5 6:15 AM
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                                On 6/2/07, lonereconeagle <lonereconeagle@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Second, the reason store are low on
                                > Trek books and high on Star Wars books is due to previous 12 month
                                > sales and returns to the publisher.

                                The reason stores have a lot of Star Wars books is because they sell a lot
                                of Star Wars books. Star Wars books sell a lot more copies than Star Trek
                                books. Locus, the news magazine of the science fiction book world, has a
                                number of monthly bestseller lists from various sources (big chains,
                                specialty SF stores, etc). On average, IIRC, about 80% of the best-selling
                                media tie-in books are Star Wars books.

                                > Third, TPTB at Borders have told their employees that
                                > within the next decade, there will be no more book stores and they
                                > all will be out of jobs. The reason? eBooks will take over the market
                                > and people will only have that choice in book format.

                                I have books printed before my parents were born, when my grandparents were
                                young (a few Tom Swift books from 1910-1920, for example). They still work.
                                Books are not dependent on a particular platform, program, or OS. Ebooks as
                                they exist today not only won't replace print books, they can't. They simply
                                cannot do what print books can, and the things that ebooks can do that print
                                books can't don't make up for it.

                                Show me an ebook reader that doesn't need any more power source than ambient
                                light, that doesn't cost anything, that you can share with someone else,
                                that can't break, that you can safely forget at a cafe or on the bus, that
                                doesn't need Internet access, that can be handled without any training or
                                learning curve by a four-year-old or an eighty-year-old, that you can drop
                                in a box and pick up again decades later and read without difficulty, and
                                then you might start getting close to eliminating print books.

                                Steve


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • don hallenbeck
                                1 problem with suggesting Large Print, Jackie, They have large print here @ my Public Library & most of tyhe titles they get are Westerns, romances & Mystrys.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 5 7:21 AM
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                                  1 problem with suggesting Large Print, Jackie, They have large print here @ my Public Library & most of tyhe titles they get are Westerns, romances & Mystrys. Every once in awhile a non fic Lg. Print will show up. There is almost no Sci Fi Large Print available ( Niche Mkt for somebody. Hint, Hint). I guess the older generation only reads the afore mentioned genres & not Sci Fi. I even asked the librarian & she said that amt of Lg. Print Sci Fi would almost fit on the head of a pin.
                                  Audio books would be the better answer as a lot of S.T. Titles are advertised to be out on audio( tape,CD).
                                  L L & P
                                  Don H.

                                  Jackie Bundy <msferengi@...> wrote:

                                  --- lonereconeagle <lonereconeagle@...> wrote:

                                  > Its funny you should write that, Jackie.
                                  >
                                  > Last week i had a long talk with the Border Books
                                  > employee in charge
                                  > of the SciFi section. A few things came to light.
                                  > First, because of
                                  > the difficulty of having regular scifi book in
                                  > alphabeticaly order by
                                  > last name followed by series in alphabetical order,
                                  > Borders has
                                  > decided to move all novel series into the mix. So
                                  > instead of going to
                                  > the end of the scifi rows and looking for Star Trek,
                                  > it now will be
                                  > between Stackpole and Tolkein. Second, the reason
                                  > store are low on
                                  > Trek books and high on Star Wars books is due to
                                  > previous 12 month
                                  > sales and returns to the publisher. When Borders
                                  > orders the next Trek
                                  > novel, they look at the sales from each Trek novel
                                  > from the past 12
                                  > months & their returns to the publisher and then
                                  > decide how little to
                                  > order. Sometime they arrive on date from the Borders
                                  > warehouse and
                                  > sometimes they arrive days late. As for Star Wars,
                                  > Borders says they
                                  > cannot keep new Star Wars books in stock and they
                                  > always over order
                                  > them and display them at the front door so that they
                                  > can sell the
                                  > most they can. Third, TPTB at Borders have told
                                  > their employees that
                                  > within the next decade, there will be no more book
                                  > stores and they
                                  > all will be out of jobs. The reason? eBooks will
                                  > take over the market
                                  > and people will only have that choice in book
                                  > format.

                                  Funny, I work for Borders and our store doesn't work
                                  like that. For example the new Vanguard novel is
                                  prominent on the new paperback display along with
                                  other SciFi titles.

                                  >
                                  > How does this tie-in with your quote? My dad is in
                                  > his mid 60s. He
                                  > likes reading, but cant find large print books that
                                  > he wants to buy
                                  > (BTW, large print is either 11 reg, 13 reg, or 16
                                  > BOLD font). When
                                  > was the last time you saw a MMPB, large print of
                                  > Louis L'Amour?
                                  > Never. That publishing group only prints HB, large
                                  > print books. My
                                  > dad cannot afford the prices of HB books. And there
                                  > are have been no
                                  > releases of eBooks by that author.

                                  Your Dad might want to approach the public library for
                                  help. There are several publishers who reprint titles
                                  in large print for libraries. Even if your closest
                                  library doesn't carry the titles he's looking for they
                                  should be able to order them for him.

                                  Jackie






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                                • Dee
                                  also you read something and turn back a few pages to check something out because you can t remember it. I will never give up my books. I have one bedroom
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 5 1:54 PM
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                                    also you read something and turn back a few pages to check something out because you can't remember it. I will never give up my books. I have one bedroom that is nothing but book shelves and I love to see all the colorful covers and the fact that i do have certain series or that i am missing parts just by looking at that section of the shelf. Dee

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                                  • Dee
                                    I bought an ecook book on bread machine bread and it is a pain. I either have to write the receipe down, print it out or run back and forth between the
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 5 1:58 PM
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                                      I bought an ecook book on bread machine bread and it is a pain. I either have to write the receipe down, print it out or run back and forth between the computer and the kitchen to make the bread. I have carpal tunnel both hands so I am not going to write it down and don't have the money to buy a new printer so i can't print it out and if i decide i don't like the recipe i have wasted paper and ink. I prefer to have the cookbook in my hand by the counter so i can make additions or corrections to the recipe. Dee

                                      YAHOO/AIM/AOL dragonscub1a ICQ 380495169
                                      WINDOWS LIVE/MSN drgnscub1@...
                                      http://cubbys-den.covenspace.com/ (vixis with a little v)
                                      http://www.myspace.com/vampires_klingons_oh_my (Vixis)

                                      Captain, USS Dragon's Cub NCC-81003, "Qapla" Class, SFI Region 4

                                      "And if it hurt none, then let it be.......or turn your head so you don't have to watch........"
                                      Argue not with dragons, for thou art crunchy and go well with brie
                                      "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus" or ketchup depending on the mood.

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