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Re: [Star Trek Books] Reaching down to pick up a brick...to throw it or to further the wall

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  • menes@gothboy.com
    I m sorry, I thought I responded to this earlier; must have accidentally closed the window instead. ... My name is Jason. And you re right, to a degree. I
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 31, 2005
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      I'm sorry, I thought I responded to this earlier; must have accidentally
      closed the window instead.

      > Menes
      > I don't agree. Five year olds don't come up with that kind of stuff
      > without outside influence. One has to learn that behavior, you don't
      > pick it up out of thin air. My youngest likes girls, and isn't afraid
      > to say so, but since he was little he has watched Bond movies. He is
      > five.

      My name is Jason. And you're right, to a degree. I did learn from outside
      influences how to love; I watched television; I watched my family & my
      friends. The first person I had a crush on was Casey Hanes; he rode my
      school bus and I hadn't been told by anyone that liking another guy was a
      possibility, but it happened anyways. I wasn't told that liking another boy
      was wrong either. When I was told, my feelings didn't change, and no one
      was ever able to convince me that those feelings were wrong, and believe
      me - they surely tried. How could me liking someone, and eventually loving
      them be wrong? And not even James Bond could convince me otherwise, as I
      was watching Bond films around the same age that your son does now (You Only
      Live Twice was the first one I ever saw); I thought the bond girls were
      cool; that Bond was an ass to just walk away from so many of them; and I
      thought the gay villains in From Russia With Love, and Diamonds Are Forever
      were scary.

      >
      > I have friend she likes animal sex and its consensual, so why should
      > it be illegal? Is that not discrimination, based on the fact she
      > enjoys to have sex with a golden retriever?

      Main Entry: con┬Ěsent
      Function: noun
      1 a : compliance in or approval of what is done or proposed by another;
      specifically : the voluntary agreement or acquiescence by a person of age or
      with requisite mental capacity who is not under duress or coercion and
      usually who has knowledge or understanding -see also AGE OF CONSENT,
      INFORMED CONSENT, RAPE, STATUTORY RAPE

      An animal can not give it's consent; and that makes it wrong. It's not
      equal. It's not even close. A dog cannot understand the responsibilities &
      consequences of sexual relations with a human. They can't make an informed
      decision. And if a human misinterprets what a dog wants, the dog can't
      voice
      it's reluctance, or it's objections to the sexual act.

      >The other term, which I
      > may have misspelled, is a clinical term, I believe, for adults who
      > like to have sex teenagers. Where do we stop this? Where is the line
      > drawn in the sand.

      Again, people who have not reached maturity, who aren't "of age", are not
      on equal terms with an adult; even if a teenager has reached physical
      maturity, mentally & emotionally they are most likely not prepared to make
      an informed decision about sex with an adult. The adult has all the power
      in such a situation; they have the experience and the development, and
      should know better than to have sex with a teenager; possibly stunting their
      partner's proper development. Once a person has fully developed from an
      adolescent to an adult they are better equipped to engage in such activity.

      I remember watching Oprah once (I can't believe I'm admitting this); and
      this was probably a decade ago, and this man was talking about a how his
      step-daughter seduced him. Oprah looked at this man and said something to
      the effect that this man was an adult and he had other options - she said
      she didn't care if his step-daughter ran naked through the house and pleaded
      for his sexual attention; there was no excuse for his behavior; a standing
      ovation followed. Sex with teenagers seems to be about adults taking
      advantage of immature young people who are crying out for attention - often
      times sexual attention - but it doesn't make it right.

      For me, I think that in order for love to work, and for sex to be
      acceptable - it has to have balance; it has to have equality, no matter what
      games are played behind closed doors. Without that equality sex can too
      easily make people into victims; turning something that can potentially be a
      fantastically positive experience into a tragedy.

      >In Asia and Africa and in old times older men
      > married younger women (25 male to early teens for girls). Do we repeal
      > the polygamy laws? Why shouldn't a man or woman (to be fair) have more
      > than one mate? How about a Star Trek officer she comes on board with
      > her two husbands? I am just trying to be devils adovacate...

      I know lots of people that have more than one partner, and I'm not talking
      about casual affairs or one night stands. I know 3somes that are committed
      to each other, that apparently live quite happily together, and I couldn't
      be happier for them. It's not for me; I'm more a one on one kind of guy,
      but everyone has to follow their own heart. And if at the end of the day
      those laws were repealed, that wouldn't bother me one bit. Those rules or
      the absence of them don't hurt me or my friends - and we certainly don't
      hurt those that passed the laws to begin with.

      And if a Star Trek officer came aboard a starship with her two husbands -
      it wouldn't bother me either. I might even be a bit jealous of her if the
      two guys were described as looking and sounding like Ewan McGregor & Lenny
      Kravitz. Sorry. I was daydreaming. lol The things that pop up in fiction
      seldom if ever bother me; at least not those kinds of things.

      > As Menes thought that there should be more gay characters and they
      > shouuld ram the social agenda down the throats of people, is wrong.

      Again, why is it that when there are gay characters it's an agenda, but
      when there are hetero characters...it's...what exactly is it? The truth is
      that the so-called gay agenda, is nothing more than gay people speaking up
      for themselves, and others becoming aware that gay people actually exist and
      realizing that gays/lesbians aren't going to run back into the closet
      because some people aren't comfortable with their existence.

      >
      > Maybe the real reason Dinos went away was chain smoking and gay sex...
      >

      Um...not sure what that ones about.

      Bald Jason
      http://www.gothboy.com
    • don hallenbeck
      Re: Bookstore closed for 2 wks., I can feel your withdrawl symptoms way up here in Maine, Ben. Don H. Ben wrote: Or shall pick up
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 1 6:29 AM
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        Re: Bookstore closed for 2 wks., I can feel your withdrawl symptoms way up here in Maine, Ben.
        Don H.

        Ben <benjaminhwilbur@...> wrote:

        Or shall pick up sledge hammer.

        I will be reading Pandoras Box next, its not infront of me.. Its in
        the other room, Spock saavik (I think)and a Romulan bird of prey are
        on the cover.

        Menes
        I don't agree. Five year olds don't come up with that kind of stuff
        without outside influence. One has to learn that behavior, you don't
        pick it up out of thin air. My youngest likes girls, and isn't afraid
        to say so, but since he was little he has watched Bond movies. He is
        five.

        I have friend she likes animal sex and its consensual, so why should
        it be illegal? Is that not discrimination, based on the fact she
        enjoys to have sex with a golden retriever? The other term, which I
        may have misspelled, is a clinical term, I believe, for adults who
        like to have sex teenagers. Where do we stop this? Where is the line
        drawn in the sand. In Asia and Africa and in old times older men
        married younger women (25 male to early teens for girls). Do we repeal
        the polygamy laws? Why shouldn't a man or woman (to be fair) have more
        than one mate? How about a Star Trek officer she comes on board with
        her two husbands? I am just trying to be devils adovacate...
        _____________________

        My favorite book store will be closed for 2 weeks they are moving.
        Drats..






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      • David Young
        I just want to state two things for the record here: 1) I also find this entering of sex with animals and sex with children and/or teenagers to be unnecessary,
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 1 10:40 AM
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          I just want to state two things for the record here:

          1) I also find this entering of sex with animals and sex with
          children and/or teenagers to be unnecessary, unhelpful to the
          discussion, and insulting to homosexuals. I know that the person
          who brought them up wasn't intending it to be, but I still persoally
          feel that I should distance myself from that particular part of this
          larger discussion.

          And 2) (Not to sound patronizing in any way, seriously, but) Jason,
          I have to say that I think your comments below are very well stated
          and appreciate the maturity of your responses. I think that it
          shows that one doesn't have to go the "bigot" and "intolerant"
          direction to express their views on this subject. Anyway, for what
          it's worth, this kind of response is much more likely to make me
          consider things. Thanks.


          ***********
          David Young
          Cleveland, GA
          * Currently Reading:
          * Just Read: Starman: A Wicked Inclination... (Robinson, Harris, Von
          Grawbadger, et al.)
          (What else? Check out my homepage,
          http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8939/index.html) :)



          --- In startrekbooks@yahoogroups.com, <menes@g...> wrote:
          > I'm sorry, I thought I responded to this ealier; must have
          accidentally
          > closed the window instead.
          >
          > > Menes
          > > I don't agree. Five year olds don't come up with that kind of
          stuff
          > > without outside influence. One has to learn that behavior, you
          don't
          > > pick it up out of thin air. My youngest likes girls, and isn't
          afraid
          > > to say so, but since he was little he has watched Bond movies.
          He is
          > > five.
          >
          > My name is Jason. And you're right, to a degree. I did learn
          from outside
          > influences how to love; I watched television; I watched my family
          & my
          > friends. The first person I had a crush on was Casey Hanes; he
          rode my
          > school bus and I hadn't been told by anyone that liking another
          guy was a
          > possability, but it happened anyways. I wasn't told that liking
          another boy
          > was wrong either. When I was told, my feelings didn't change, and
          no one
          > was ever able to convince me that those feelings were wrong, and
          believe
          > me - they surely tried. How could me liking someone, and
          eventually loving
          > them be wrong? And not even James Bond could convince me
          otherwise, as I
          > was watching Bond films around the same age that your son does now
          (You Only
          > Live Twice was the first one I ever saw); I thought the bond girls
          were
          > cool; that Bond was an ass to just walk away from so many of them;
          and I
          > thought the gay villains in From Russia With Love, and Diamonds
          Are Forever
          > were scary.
          >
          > >
          > > I have friend she likes animal sex and its consensual, so why
          should
          > > it be illegal? Is that not discrimination, based on the fact she
          > > enjoys to have sex with a golden retriever?
          >
          > Main Entry: con┬Ěsent
          > Function: noun
          > 1 a : compliance in or approval of what is done or proposed by
          another;
          > specifically : the voluntary agreement or acquiescence by a person
          of age or
          > with requisite mental capacity who is not under duress or coercion
          and
          > usually who has knowledge or understanding -see also AGE OF
          CONSENT,
          > INFORMED CONSENT, RAPE, STATUTORY RAPE
          >
          > An animal can not give it's consent; and that makes it wrong.
          It's not
          > equal. It's not even close. A dog cannot understand the
          responsabilities &
          > consequences of sexual relations with a human. They can't make an
          informed
          > decison. And if a human misinterprets what a dog wants, the dog
          can't voice
          > it's reluctance, or it's objections to the sexual act.
          >
          > >The other term, which I
          > > may have misspelled, is a clinical term, I believe, for adults
          who
          > > like to have sex teenagers. Where do we stop this? Where is the
          line
          > > drawn in the sand.
          >
          > Again, people who have not reached maturity, who aren't "of age",
          are not
          > on equel terms with an adult; even if a teenager has reached
          physical
          > maturity, mentallly & emotionally they are most likely not
          prepared to make
          > an informed decision about sex with an adult. The adult has all
          the power
          > in such a situation; they have the experience and the development,
          and
          > should know better than to have sex with a teenager; possibly
          stunting their
          > partner's proper development. Once a person has fully developed
          from an
          > adolescent to an adult they are better equipped to engage in such
          activity.
          >
          > I remember watching Oprah once (I can't believe I'm admitting
          this); and
          > this was probably a decade ago, and this man was talking about a
          how his
          > step-daughter seduced him. Oprah looked at this man and said
          something to
          > the effect that this man was an adult and he had other options -
          she said
          > she didn't care if his step-daughter ran naked through the house
          and pleaded
          > for his sexual attention; there was no excuse for his behavior; a
          standing
          > ovation followed. Sex with teenagers seems to be about adults
          taking
          > advantage of imature young people who are crying out for
          attention - often
          > times sexual attention - but it doesn't make it right.
          >
          > For me, I think that in order for love to work, and for sex to be
          > acceptable - it has to have balance; it has to have equality, no
          matter what
          > games are played behind closed doors. Without that equality sex
          can too
          > easily make people into victims; turning something that can
          potentially be a
          > fantastically positive experience into a tragedy.
          >
          > >In Asia and Africa and in old times older men
          > > married younger women (25 male to early teens for girls). Do we
          repeal
          > > the polygamy laws? Why shouldn't a man or woman (to be fair)
          have more
          > > than one mate? How about a Star Trek officer she comes on board
          with
          > > her two husbands? I am just trying to be devils adovacate...
          >
          > I know lots of people that have more than one partner, and I'm
          not talking
          > about casual affairs or one night stands. I know 3somes that are
          commited
          > to each other, that apparently live quite happily together, and I
          couldn't
          > be happier for them. It's not for me; I'm more a one on one kind
          of guy,
          > but everyone has to follow their own heart. And if at the end of
          the day
          > those laws were repealed, that wouldn't bother me one bit. Those
          rules or
          > the absence of them don't hurt me or my friends - and we certainly
          don't
          > hurt those that passed the laws to begin with.
          >
          > And if a Star Trek officer came aboard a starship with her two
          husbands -
          > it wouldn't bother me either. I might even be a bit jealous of
          her if the
          > two guys were described as looking and sounding like Ewan McGregor
          & Lenny
          > Kravitz. Sorry. I was daydreaming. lol The things that pop up
          in fiction
          > seldom if ever bother me; at least not those kinds of things.
          >
          > > As Menes thought that there should be more gay characters and
          they
          > > shouuld ram the social agenda down the throats of people, is
          wrong.
          >
          > Again, why is it that when there are gay characters it's an
          agenda, but
          > when there are hetero characters...it's...what exactly is it? The
          truth is
          > that the so-called gay agenda, is nothing more than gay people
          speaking up
          > for themselves, and others becoming aware that gay people actually
          exist and
          > realizing that gays/lesbians aren't going to run back into the
          closet
          > because some people aren't comfortable with their existance.
          >
          > >
          > > Maybe the real reason Dinos went away was chain smoking and gay
          sex...
          > >
          >
          > Um...not sure what that ones about.
          >
          > Bald Jason
          > http://www.gothboy.com
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