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2010Re: [St.H.Fam.Hist.] Re: Young Family

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  • Harold Hayward
    May 2, 2014
      Thanks, Richard.
      A grim story! Congratulations on your "breakthrough".
      The goldfields connection is of interest to me (and others) since it appears that my ggf Thomas Bagley came to Australia around the same time and became a gold miner in the same area ( Castlemaine, Hepburn). We have a comprehensive genealogy for  Bagley ( see earlier posts attached to yours)  but never discovered how he came to Australia. Bagley ( born 1829) died in a mine disaster in Gippsland in 1883. His death certificate showed that he arrived in Australia in 1852 . Will see if I can obtain a passenger list for the Australasian Packet 
      Harold Hayward

      Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:02 PM
      Subject: [St.H.Fam.Hist.] Re: Young Family


      Hi All,

      I am updating this post as I think I have had a breakthrough. In 1855 three St Helenans were working the gold fields of Bendigo (Sandhurst) in Victoria Australia;

      Hugh Darke Northam born 04 Jul 1825 to Thomas Northam St Helena Artillery and Catherine McCarrol
      India Office record N/6/3 f. 15

      James Lawrence reference unknown but a choice of 
      James Jacob Lawrence born 8 Jul 1823 to William & Sarah  Ref N/6/2 f.226 OR 
      James Samuel Lawrence born 13 Jul 1831 to William & Sarah Ref N/6/3 f.149

      My great grandfather (I believe to be there) 
      John Francis Young born 1835 approx to Joseph Young & Sarah Francis

      In the gold fields the diggers lived  in tents on the field next to their lease. Some people worked as teams and that partner was referred to as their mate. Modern Australian usage refers to a mate as a friend. In this case Northam and Lawrence appeared to work the same claim so they were claim mates. Lawrence & Young shared a tent but not a claim so they were mates as in friends. Northam and Lawrence were supposed to have arrived in Melbourne together though the records show otherwise. Northam boarded at Capetown.

      What transpired is that in late September 1855 Hugh Northam and James Lawrence had a falling out which resulted in Northam shooting Lawrence in the throat with a muzzle loaded pistol.as he lay in his camp stretcher. John Young was in his stretcher in the same tent. The ball went through James's trachea and oesophagus and lodged in his dorsal vertebrae. He did not die but it was impossible for him to receive food or water as it would leak out of the wound. I am unsure of the time that transpired but it appears that it was at least a week before Lawrence, in terrible pain, succumbed to internal and lung infections.

      Hugh Northam avoided the death penalty because the incompetence of the doctor treating Lawrence was deemed to have contributed to his death. Northam was sentence to 7 years hard labour on the charge of manslaughter. What happened to him after that is unclear but one newspaper report said that at the time of the shooting he had already invested in UK canals and railways.

      Is anybody chasing down James Lawrence or Hugh Darke Northam? I have some interesting articles about the inquest and trial.

      Interestingly Northam reportedly converted 3lbs of gold just days before the shooting. When arrested trying to cash the cheque in Melbourne the authorities seized the money.  At today's price it would be the equivalent of USD$2,000,000


      Richard Vickery

      ---In st-helena-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, <heh002@...> wrote :

      Thanks, Clive.
      To make it worse my grandfather Thomas Gabriel Alexander Bagley had older brothers Edward and George Carol. I only have summary information with me but "my" Edward was born on 17/7/1864 and "my" George was born on 11/3/1866.  My grandfather Thomas Gabriel Alexander Bagley was born on 22/12/1870 at Daylesford in Victoria. He had younger sisters Mary Ann Amelia ( which picks up a St. Helenan grandmother's name, I think) born on 22/10/1870 and another other younger sister Matilda Amanda ( which I also suspect reprises the name of a St. Helena forebear) was born on 31/5/1859. Frederick Doveton,  the baby of the family, was born on 15/1/1882.
      Seems to me that this "mob" was related to your "mob" ( if you'll excuse an Aussie expression). Alternatively the gene pool, or the name pool,  was limited.  Have written a draft of a chapter in a book about my "mob" -  some interesting characters. Finding out how Thomas Gabriel Bagley go off the island would fill  a gap in the story.
      Am about to leave for Tasmania. Only have summary notes with me - have a bit more information in the "archives" (i.e. the garage - where else) but it will be some weeks before I can get to it.
      Harold Hayward
      PS It's a shocking thought, but I think my paternal great grandfather may have come to Australia via South Africa - but that's another mystery.

      Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 11:01 PM
      Subject: RE: [St.H.Fam.Hist.] RE: Young Family


      Hi Harold

      Too much information indeed. But sometimes not enough.

      To my knowledge, two Bagleys married Alexanders on the Island. My 4th Great Grandfather, George Alexander, married Margaret Bagley in 1751 and Edward Bagley married Elizabeth Alexander in 1732. This is most likely where the Alexander in TGA’s name came from.

      I need more info on these Bagleys. I have birth and death dates for Margaret and birth Date for Edward, but nothing else. How were they related, who were their parents? And so on. Can you help?

      We also have Dovetons in our tree. I find I am a fourth cousin 3 x removed to Dr Louis Leaky, the archaeologist, with Sarah Doveton and John Bazett a common ancestors.


      Clive Alexander

      South Africa

      From: st-helena-genealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:st-helena-genealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harold Hayward
      Sent: 01 November 2013 11:16 PM
      To: st-helena-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [St.H.Fam.Hist.] RE: Young Family


      Thanks, Richard.

      I don't have my full Bagley file handy, but my notes indicate that Thomas Gabriel Bagley was married in 1862 ( to Elizabeth Boff) at Castlemaine, not far from Bendigo,Vic.  These are goldfields sites, of course. 

      Thomas Gabriel Bagley was not Irish but English, a descendant of an early (original?) settler Orlando Bagley who arrived on the Island in the 17th century. Thomas Bagley's eldest son was called William Orlando, reprising the Orlando name. His youngest son, Frederick Doveton, possibly reprised the name of Sir William Doveton. Sir William Doveton had a brother called Frederick . And also there was another relative, Gabriel Doveton, which is maybe where the "Gabriel" in Thomas Bagley's name came from. And to make matters worse, he named his middle son Thomas Gabriel Alexander Bagley . TGA Bagley was my grandfather. It would be a guess, but I imagine that the St.Helena Dovetons were patrons of this branch of the Bagley family ( several Bagley families living on the isalnd). 

      The Doveton name is connected with the Eureka Stockade at Ballarat in 1854. Ballarat was of course another gold mining town. Captain Francis Doveton was a goldfields commissioner with the responsibility of putting down the Eureka rebellion. Being a miner and lving in that partof Vicotria it would be surprising that Thomas Gabriel Bagley did not know of Francis Doveton.

      At one stage I found a ( possibly unreliable) genealogy on the web that traced Orlando Bagley's descent back to the Plantagenet royal family of  Norman England. And certainly there were Bagleys, or Baguleys (variant) or De Baguleys (pseudo Norman French)) living in Manchester where a Baguley Hall still exists.

      Too much information !!!

      Harold Hayward

      Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 10:24 PM

      Subject: Re: [St.H.Fam.Hist.] RE: Young Family


      Thanks for this Irene,

      We have long pondered John Francis Young's method of entry into Australia and your suggestions are probably the most plausible I have heard. I'll pursue it as far as I can

      Hi Harold,

      Nice to hear from you. Bagely is Irish right? Have made that branch connection yet?

      I hadn't considered the US, I am a little wary of the timing but I did consider NSW as the first point of entry into the mining industry. My GGF ended up in Jackass Flats, White Hills, Sandhurst (Bendigo).... seriously.. working as a Pyrites burner and miraculously in spite of sniffing toxic fumes at work lasted to 65. Unfortunately his teenage bride didn't live very long so he was a widower with a tribe of kids. He was described in Bendigo papers as a Malay and we think he was the son or grandson of a freed slave. As far as we can calculate the mix may have been Asian, possibly Madagascan, probably English or local and possibly West African. Fascinating stuff but frustrating given that records prior to 1835 are a little scarce and somewhat sketchy.

      I'll try the US thanks to your suggestionand see where I get.

      On 1 November 2013 20:31, Irene Dillon <larzus@...> wrote:


      Hi Richard,

      Passenger lists were very haphazard in those days.  I have family who came from Tristan Da Cunha and the only way I found it was that two children were placed in an orphanage in Hobart, which listed their birthplace and ship of arrival in Tasmania.  The ship was an American whaler not a regular passenger ship.

      Also, sailors and seamen (unskilled sea labourers) were not recorded.  There were a few seamen who died in wharf accidents in Hobart through the mid 1850s and even the ship's captain didn't know their name.  One was recorded, I remember, as 'Sharkey' and another was 'Jemmy'. 

      There was also a lot of seaport hopping by merchants between Australia, St Helena, New Zealand and Cape Town, also Nevis, Bermuda, Trinidad .... all with no records since they had their own ships.

      There was talk at one point (circa 1795 I think) of making Tristan Da Cunha a convict settlement but England decided against it. 

      There were convicts from the Islands in Tas but I think they committed their crimes in Australia.  It is more likely your ancestor signed on to a ship as crew in order to achieve a free passage to Australia.  

      However, I don't really know NSW convicts so well, nor WA. 


      On 1/11/2013 10:46 AM, richard.a.vickery@... wrote:


      Does anybody know if St Helena has police records available? Apart from being a stop over point, was St Helena a party to convict transportation to the colonies of Tasmania, New South Wales and Queensland?

      My ancestor John Francis Young b 1835 seems to have vanished from St Helena as a young person and popped up as a man in his late thirties in the Australian Goldfields of Victoria. We have exhausted all standard avenues like passenger lists etc. I have even looked at convict registers. He may have been a stowaway or a steerage passenger?

      Any clues as to where I should now look?


      ---In st-helena-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, <ecstorey@...> wrote:

      The East India Register & Directory for 1829 (Inadia Office & Burma office list) as found on Google Books for 1829, page 361 lists James Youd and John Youd.

      It also lists 3 youngs: Stephen, a farmer; Amoret, a carpenter; and Geo, a carpenter.  It is possible one of these is related to the Youngs.  Also the YON is close to the Youd.  I have found many instances of spelling changes in old records. 

      There are other years listed in Google.  I have a copy of this page, 361 and can scan & share it if there is a problem getting to see it directly.

      Ed of Falcon

      Error! Filename not specified.

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