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17323Re: SSNET: Christ - love & obey

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  • Roger Metzger
    Jun 5, 2014
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      I haven't attended enough Greek Orthodox services to know whether it is customarily but that is the only venue where I have observed antiphonal readings done by persons on opposite ends of the platform. I've mentioned it to elders in three Seventh-day Adventist congregations but haven't yet seen it tried in sabbath services.  Maybe it is because so few Seventh-day Adventists study what Ellen White called the culture of the voice anymore. It wouldn't have the same effect if electricly amplified.

      Roger Metzger
      On Jun 4, 2014 9:24 PM, "Joshua Pennerman" <josh643@...> wrote:
      Tony wrote:  Also, if you just set prose translation in poetic line format, you
      haven't really achieved poetry; you just have funny-looking prose.
      Hebrew poetry, while more translatable than many other languages'
      poetry, is still _not_ going to be easy to translate into something
      that sounds like poetic English.

      This seems to me like a gross misunderstanding of both Hebrew and English poetry.  More than half of the OT is actually poetry, easily distinguished from the prose sections.  It is the poetic sections which should be set in poetic form, not the prose.  "Sound" is a good determinator -- IF one has an ear for poetic expression.

      As for English -- Superficially, Emily Dickinson doesn't "sound" like Robinson Jeffers, and neither of them "sounds" like Shakespeare.  Poetry takes many forms and is characterized by much more than surface effects.  Underneath the various forms, there remains a characteristic "sound" to all good English poetry.  Take recordings of Robert Frost and Dylan Thomas reading their own poems, compare that with coffee house readings by some of the Beat Poets of the 1960s, and toss in a rendering of a Shakespeare play by a good Shakespearean actor -- a certain "sound" rings through them all, entirely apart from their surface forms.

      Hebrew poetry has a very specific form, very different from Hebrew prose, consistent over a thousand years -- from the Song of Exodus 15 to the last of the minor prophets,* which translates very nicely into one common form of English poetry -- the couplet.  The  basic Hebrew poem consists of couplets -- each consisting of a statement in the first line and a response in the second.  The response line may be either a contrast to or an affirmation and expansion of the statement made in the first.  Rhyme and meter are unimportant.  The statement - response form makes for a very good liturgical device -- the cantor sings the first line, the congregation the second.

      Thus, when Hebrew poetry is translated into English, if the form of the couplets is maintained, it makes a very nice English poem.  The statement-response characteristic presents a compact intensity which is much more expressive than more expanded forms.  

      Josh

      *Carried over into the NT Greek, for example in Mary's song, the "Magnificat" Luke 1:46-56:

      My soul doth magnify the Lord, (statement)
         And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (response)

      For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: (statement)
         for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. (response)






      Facts are stubborn things.  John Adams
      
      
      What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of
      little consequence. The only consequence is what we do."
      -- John Ruskin,
      On 6/4/2014 4:47 AM, Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:
      On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 06:36:27AM -0700, Joshua Pennerman wrote:
      > This is an important expression of the continuity between the OT
      > and NT, that the Greek writings are merely an extension, an exposition,
      > of the Hebrew, not a whole new religion, as many Christians think. 

      They're not a whole new thing, but they are a new thing.  It's the same
      God, and the same Saviour, in both Testaments -- but there are things
      in the OT which were not understood except in hindsight, were not
      anticipated until the reality arrived, and we could say "Oh, so _that_
      was what God meant all along!"

      > In newer translations the quotations from the Hebrew scriptures are
      > generally presented in a different type face or format.  I think
      > that is good in that it calls attention to the OT context. 

      I'll tend to agree, but we should note that sometimes the NT quotes
      are from the Septuagint (occasionally different from the Hebrew text
      in wording), and sometimes the NT authors quote loosely, and
      sometimes the quote uses OT wording and phrasing but goes in very
      different directions with it than one might expect from the OT
      context.  It's not as simple as _just_ quoting the OT.  So one has
      to be careful when understanding such references.

      > Readers of the KJV are limited to constant reference to the marginal
      > notes in order to find the Hebrew sources.  The KJV being a much
      > superior translation to many later efforts,

      While this is true, I think there are many later efforts which are
      much superior to the KJV also :)

      > I think it would be helpful to reset the text in a more modern
      > format, with the poetic sections in poetic lines and the quotations
      > from the Hebrew in bold face type.

      See above on quotations.

      Also, if you just set prose translation in poetic line format, you
      haven't really achieved poetry; you just have funny-looking prose.
      Hebrew poetry, while more translatable than many other languages'
      poetry, is still _not_ going to be easy to translate into something
      that sounds like poetic English.


      Tony Z

      --
      Love is a garden that needs regular watering, and weeding,
      but produces all sorts of unexpected delights and surprises.


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