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Re: [sqa_bangladesh] Re: I want to attend professional examination about Testing

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  • selim.mia@bjitgroup.com
    Hi Sajjad, What happened with Tahmid, it is really unfortunate and unethical. I am feeling bad on it. But i am strongly oppose your word propaganda about
    Message 1 of 59 , Sep 27, 2008
      Hi Sajjad,

      What happened with Tahmid, it is really unfortunate and unethical. I am
      feeling bad on it. But i am strongly oppose your word 'propaganda' about

      Best regards,

      > Hey Tahmid,
      > It is unfortunate but not unexpected. This is bound to happen and may
      > get much worse if many of us continue to support trivial
      > certifications as a career enhancer.
      > It is mostly due to the propaganda of the certifiers. Your
      > interviewers knew very well that they will probably not be able to
      > hire certified testers (since fortunately for us it is extremely rare
      > in BD), and so maybe they thought that it is better to prefer
      > candidates who have simply "heard" of it. I doubt anyone would
      > disagree how pathetic that is. I doubt there were real testers in the
      > interview room. Did they even ask you to demonstrate your testing
      > skills?
      > Even then, I am hopeful about the elites of BD software industry. Just
      > as they have shunned most other technology certifications during
      > hiring, so shall they do the same for tester certifications. Most of
      > us are fast learners :)
      > Regards,
      > Sajjadul Hakim
      > http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
      > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:23 AM, Tahmid Munaz <to.munaz@...> wrote:
      >> Hello everyone,
      >> Just to share from my experience - About 2 years back, in an
      >> interview
      >> board of a very well renowned Software company - they asked me if I ever
      >> heard of ISTQB or not? And frankly i replied that - No i never heard of
      >> it.
      >> They wondered and asked - how come i never heard of ISTQB and i don't
      >> know
      >> about ISTQB certification programs ? And why i had no interest for ISTQB
      >> certifications which is a world class certification for any Software
      >> Tester?
      >> They said may be i am not that motivated to stick in QA Career.
      >> Otherwise i
      >> could have shown interest on ISTQB certifications and could have started
      >> studying for that.. and etc etc..
      >> I am glad that i didn't get that job and I believe that's not the
      >> environment for building a QA or a Tester's career. A QA or Tester's
      >> motivation shouldn't be judged by his/her interest for any Certification
      >> program or by earning a Certificate. I am happy and still getting well
      >> paid
      >> for not being certified by this world standard certification. No other
      >> certification ever helped me to earn my years of practicle experience
      >> with
      >> different challanges.
      >> Certifying a Tester or a QA might be very easy by limiting the questions
      >> within a set of boundaries. But do we really expect a QA or Tester to
      >> think
      >> within a spefic boundary? Should we start fight with our client that my
      >> Best
      >> Certified QA or Tester never thought of this scenario while he/she was
      >> testing - so this couldn't be counted as Defect? :)
      >> I do agree with Michael Bolton and Sajjad bhai that certification will
      >> narrow down a QA or Tester's thinking boundaries within a list of
      >> scopes.
      >> And we shouldn't recommend to destroy their career!
      >> I suggest my other QA or Tester friends not to loose your hope if you
      >> ever
      >> face such interviewers, cause there are more better opportunities out
      >> there. Give it time and keep looking. And that will be definitely better
      >> for
      >> your future!
      >> Please don't relate any of the company names with my above example. I
      >> just
      >> shared to make you understand which shouldn't be practiced. Please
      >> correct
      >> me if you find anything wrong or i am missing nanything.
      >> Regards,
      >> Tahmid Munaz
      >> --- In sqa_bangladesh@yahoogroups.com, "Sajjadul Hakim" <sajjadul@...>
      >> wrote:
      >>> Hi Mahbub bhai,
      >>> I understand a few of our comments may sound harsh and uncommon, but I
      >>> assure you we have the best of intensions. My long response below...
      >>> > First of all, I believe - this is not a good idea to compare a
      >>> > professional
      >>> > testing or whatever certification to any of the software process
      >>> > technologies such as CMM or IEEE 1998:2001 etc. The difference of
      >>> impact
      >>> > and
      >>> > effectiveness of both in their respective areas of interest are huge
      >>> > enough
      >>> > to consider them incomparable at all.
      >>> Agreed. They both basically have two different objectives. But we
      >>> still allow discussions on CMM to be pulled into the discussions of
      >>> testing certifications and QA certifications, by the advocates of
      >>> these certifications, since these certifications are one of the main
      >>> attributes (according to them) in CMM companies.
      >>> > Process technologies, such as CMMI itself does the first level
      >>> marketing
      >>> > for
      >>> > your organization to be able to even compete to be considered
      >>> eligible
      >>> > for
      >>> > the development of mostly large scale products in your own business
      >>> area
      >>> > of
      >>> > interest.
      >>> I don't know what is your definition of large scale products, but I
      >>> would suppose large scale product would require huge staffing. Either
      >>> that, or the development may be stretched to years, which is also a
      >>> strategy. Is there any company in BD with 100+ programmers? What is
      >>> the highest number of testers they have? Even if they have anything
      >>> close to 100 (which they don't), how many projects are they handling
      >>> at the same time? These are important questions that brings into
      >>> perspective the context of BD software industry. By the way, I would
      >>> leave out the trainees from the head counts :)
      >>> Another thing that doesn't sound logical to me is that there are so
      >>> few CMM companies internationally, that there has to be non-CMM
      >>> companies working on the major chunk of the world's large scale
      >>> projects. I don't have any stats...do you?
      >>> > Then, strategic marketing gets the opportunity to win the race all
      >>> > along by selling every bit of the strength of your company, primarily
      >>> > the
      >>> > effectiveness of your products or proven capability of your
      >>> organization
      >>> > to
      >>> > produce quality product. Fortunately enough, I had the opportunity to
      >>> be
      >>> > in
      >>> > the Indian software Industry for about a year, and from the spot, I
      >>> > amazingly experienced how STRATEGIC marketing of a software product
      >>> can
      >>> > be!
      >>> You are very fortunate. There are a lot to learn from these. Would you
      >>> credit that to the process or the great marketing people in those
      >>> companies? Do you think those people, placed in another company not
      >>> following CMM, would also shine, and meet their mark?
      >>> > However, I believe, we should not close our eyes to stop seeing the
      >>> true
      >>> > face of reality just because we can hardly dream of being anywhere
      >>> near
      >>> > to
      >>> > that from our current position!!!
      >>> By "we", do you mean you and the companies you have worked for? If you
      >>> meant the whole of the BD software companies, then I would think that
      >>> is trivializing our achievements. I realize many are not aware of the
      >>> success stories, and we from SQABD intend to do something about it. We
      >>> are in the process of discussing how to channel these achievements to
      >>> our readers. We have already taken similar approaches with SQABD Meet
      >>> the Mentors VIDEOS, and SQABD Lightning Talks, but of course for very
      >>> different purposes.
      >>> > That is not fair at all, ai? Successful
      >>> > customization and implementation of a standard process technology in
      >>> > your
      >>> > organization ensures that your company is well capable of delivering
      >>> > quality
      >>> > products, and undoubtedly places you at least half a step ahead of an
      >>> > organization without that.
      >>> No it doesn't. Explanation below...
      >>> > I am confidently putting up this statement only
      >>> > because I have closely observed (experienced would fit better) such
      >>> > scenarios at least a couple of times in my career so far J
      >>> I have a problem with your use of the word "ensure", and it is obvious
      >>> you meant it literally, since you are expressing your confidence. A
      >>> process (even if it is a so-called "standard" process) can never
      >>> ensure quality. Even agile processes cannot do the same.
      >>> In your company, are you able to convince your believes of moving
      >>> towards CMMI? What is stopping them from moving forward? Please
      >>> understand that this is a legitimate question, and is not intended to
      >>> disrespect you in any way? You know me :) But it is important to
      >>> analyze these cases. I shamelessly admit how I was once an advocate of
      >>> CMMI, and how I failed.
      >>> > What I realized being a part of the industry in Bangladesh for the
      >>> last
      >>> > few
      >>> > years is very disappointing in many aspects. With due respect to
      >>> > everyone,
      >>> > what disappoints me the most is - when I see that the definition of a
      >>> > true
      >>> > quality product/delivery is not very clear to most of the IT
      >>> > Leaders/Managers in our industry. And this is one of the major
      >>> reasons
      >>> > of
      >>> > why our growth as an industry is so irrational and scattered in
      >>> > comparison
      >>> > to others around the globe. But in true aspect, this does not consign
      >>> > their
      >>> > effort to be in any position of disgrace. They have had established
      >>> > their
      >>> > efforts as highly influential to whatever growth this industry has
      >>> > achieved
      >>> > so far by extraordinarily fighting against many powerful obstacles in
      >>> > their
      >>> > way. I salute all of them for every bit of their remarkable
      >>> > achievements.
      >>> Thank you for the last few sentences. Just have a little patience my
      >>> friend. This turtle will take time, but it is the tinyness that is our
      >>> advantage. We are so connected that we will get to know each others
      >>> achievements, and even learn from it. As for the definition of
      >>> quality, I hope you will not be so harsh on how everyone interprets
      >>> it. Quality is value to some. If anything, I don't really agree with
      >>> the universal definition of quality expressed in CMMI. I know, coming
      >>> from me, an advocate of great testing practices, that may be shocking,
      >>> but I can clarify if you would want. I have done so before as well.
      >>> > I would not, for sure, discourage in case anyone wants to learn and
      >>> earn
      >>> > a
      >>> > certification in testing or quality assurance. Because, in global
      >>> > employment
      >>> > market, any reputed professional certificate adds in some value to a
      >>> > professionals' compatibility. Many employers around the globe prefer
      >>> to
      >>> > recruit one with a related certification than others; on the contrary
      >>> > many
      >>> > do not bother much about these. My point of agreement is, to get
      >>> myself
      >>> > open
      >>> > for all, there is no harm to get a certification regardless of how
      >>> much
      >>> > that
      >>> > adds in my proficiency.
      >>> I can understand your neutral stance. I specifically have allergies
      >>> with testing and QA certifications, because I looked into them in
      >>> detail. I will never pass their tests! Do you know why? Because I can
      >>> find flaws in most of their questions. They will never pass me if I
      >>> write my thoughts in their essay questions, and I can never make
      >>> myself to tick on a narrowly thought out multiple choice question.
      >>> What I feel like doing is tick a particular answer (sometimes I would
      >>> tick more than one choice) and then write a summary next to it on why
      >>> that is the right answer in a particular context. Find my analysis of
      >>> some of these questions, in both QA and testing topics, here:
      >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sqa_bangladesh/message/1183
      >>> So you see, I fail to understand how people who really understand the
      >>> essence of Quality Assurance and the craft of testing, can ever pass
      >>> the test. That makes me very skeptical when people are encouraging
      >>> others, probably without knowing the internal details of such
      >>> certifications. I don't disrespect them or blame them at all. They
      >>> probably did not know there was an alternative. I blame the certifiers
      >>> for misleading such enthusiastic individuals, and duping them in
      >>> believing that what they are learning universal concepts that are
      >>> applicable everywhere. These certifiers are turning them into mindless
      >>> drones and giving them a false sense of satisfaction. Worst of all,
      >>> they are not teaching them testing or quality assurance! This has
      >>> resulted in great dissatisfaction in the work force and personal job
      >>> satisfaction, when they are not taken seriously or are considered
      >>> disruptive in an organization.
      >>> Recruiters are making this scenario a lot worse! Fortunately this is
      >>> not the scenario in BD (yet). We are blessed, really! But everywhere
      >>> else, and even in India, many recruiters undermine real testers, by
      >>> trying to recruit the easy way, i.e. filter applicants based on
      >>> certifications. Many of you say that there is a demand for it, and we
      >>> should make ourselves marketable. I say that if you want to be
      >>> ordinary, and promote the selfish economic causes of QAI, ISTQB, IIST
      >>> and other testing and QA certifiers, and weaken the edge BD has right
      >>> now in not trivializing testing skills...then I will be waiting with
      >>> fingers on my keyboard. :) I probably will not succeed to convince the
      >>> masses, but what is stopping me from trying. I know there are others
      >>> out there who share my concern.
      >>> Knowing the consequences, if I remain silent or neutral, I will be
      >>> doing injustice to all the bright individuals in our country. I would
      >>> like to see these individuals shine in there career.
      >>> Let me give you an example of how serious I am about this. Back in
      >>> 2005, I participated in an initiation discussion of a new Bangladesh
      >>> Software Testing Board under ISTQB. It was very disappointing, and I
      >>> did not expect much would ever happen, and I was right. In 2007, two
      >>> nice gentlemen from this yet to be initiated board came to talk to me
      >>> about my opinions about this initiative. I am sure I am not the only
      >>> one they spoke to. I expressed my skepticism, and interestingly they
      >>> said they understood many of my concerns. They admitted that they did
      >>> not know much about testing. Finally, a month back, I was called up by
      >>> one of the executive committee members (a good man with good
      >>> intensions), from this yet to be initiated board, to invite me to
      >>> their executive committee. But I declined. I mentioned my
      >>> disappointment in the lack of progress they were making and that their
      >>> mission is not clear to me. He spent the next 30 minutes to convince
      >>> me about their seriousness to move beyond mere certification and to
      >>> encourage me to join them. He even suggested to call up a meeting with
      >>> the other EC members to discuss this further, and clear my doubts. I
      >>> was flattered. I instead told him that I would rather like to be part
      >>> of their planning on how they intend to train testers in BD, and what
      >>> precautions they would take not to undermine the testing craft. I did
      >>> not have to be in the executive committee for that. He finally agreed.
      >>> To be honest, I doubt this approach will ever work out, but atleast it
      >>> is worth a try! They just might listen to my recommendations if I can
      >>> convince them, or maybe not :) You see, there is no way I can pursue
      >>> my thoughts about the dangers of certification if I am involved with
      >>> one myself. I would be known as a hypocrite.
      >>> > I believe, there is no more effective alternative of learning by
      >>> > yourself in
      >>> > cases where you have all required resources in hand. But that does
      >>> not
      >>> > draw
      >>> > a bottom line from my side by stating that you should not try
      >>> yourself
      >>> > out
      >>> > for a certification in your own professional area of interest. With
      >>> such
      >>> > initiatives, you might get to know about something that you were not
      >>> > familiar with at all (can be a technique or a tool or methodology or
      >>> > anything).
      >>> As you have realized, I am specifically talking about testing
      >>> certifications, and also QA certifications because they include
      >>> testing topics. I see more harm in it than good, and so I
      >>> intentionally chose sides. The rest is for the readers to decide for
      >>> themselves. This statement is in no way to stop further discussions on
      >>> this topic. I only hope that you are all encouraged to share your
      >>> opinions about this topic and others in this vibrant community of
      >>> ours.
      >>> Since many of you probably did not go through the slides that I posted
      >>> earlier, here are the source of the slides, i.e. blog posts by James
      >>> Bach and Michael Bolton:
      >>> http://www.developsense.com/2007/12/why-i-am-not-yet-certified-eurostar.html
      >>> http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/110
      >>> Also, here is an alternative to certification, i.e. FREE downloadable
      >>> video lectures from Dr. Cem Kaner, to make you a smart tester and be
      >>> able to find flaws in many of the testing certification questions:
      >>> http://testingeducation.org/BBST/index.html
      >>> You tell me which is better. To naively be able to answer silly and
      >>> flawed questions, or to have the knowledge to know better than the
      >>> questions being asked. :)
      >>> I am listening. :)
      >>> Regards,
      >>> Sajjadul Hakim
      >>> http://rapidtester.blogspot.com/
    • Sajjadul Hakim
      Hi Monirul, ... Unfortunately, neither QAI not ISTQB opens their Body of Knowledge , which is their syllabus. They only list out their table of contents and a
      Message 59 of 59 , Oct 11, 2008
        Hi Monirul,

        Find my comments below:

        > We know every certification has a syllabus and the syllabus covers some
        > predefined topics. Before going for a particular certification, sometimes we
        > can get the syllabus and topics of that certification.

        Unfortunately, neither QAI not ISTQB opens their "Body of Knowledge",
        which is their syllabus. They only list out their table of contents
        and a few lines of description. That is pretty pathetic. You need to
        understand that certification is a business. They did not setup this
        business for giving out their syllabus for free :)

        On the other hand, BBST course syllabus is online, and in fact the
        whole course is FREE. That makes it easy for you to judge its
        effectiveness and its intentions.

        > If the syllabus is
        > back dated then we should not go for it. We can search for some other
        > renowned institutions whose syllabuses are more updated.

        All popular certification syllabus are back dated and do not even
        apply to the agile approaches of software development that is so
        prevalent nowadays, especially in BD. It even gives a very shallow
        explanation on Exploratory Testing. The most up-to-date syllabus on
        software testing is the BBST course, that is FREE and have video
        lectures that demonstrate testing skills:

        > certification does not ensure about your quality, skill or your merit. But
        > it gives a synopsis about you.

        It gives a synopsis about you? No it does not. It only tells everyone
        else that you are able to answer their multiple choice or essay
        questions, the way THEY wanted you to answer them. How can that ever
        be an outline of you, who probably has a lot more knowledge and
        testing skills.

        > Who needs certification?
        > 1. You are a fresher. You are going door to door for a job. Wherever
        > you go, they ask for a certification. Sometimes it is mentioned in job
        > circular "Certified ….. will get preference". You failed to satisfy the
        > employer by your ability, skill, talent or aptitude. Then you need a
        > certification.

        Which country are you talking about? I haven't heard that in BD. The
        only morons I heard of were rejecting candidates based on if the
        candidates ever heard of ISTQB certifications:

        Now for those in other countries who actually ask for freshers who are
        certified. They probably don't know how to interview. They probably
        don't have skilled testers who can conduct the interviews. They
        probably don't have skilled testers who can build your testing skills.
        They probably don't know about the enormous demerits of
        certifications. Would freshers who really have the ambition to be
        great at testing, want to join these companies that prefer certified
        people over smarter people.

        Testing interviews are tough, and there are no shortcuts to selecting
        the best candidate. Here is how I conduct the interviews (read
        previous posts in this thread to find out more about testing

        Do you know that in the programming teams, the intelligent and
        successful people I know do not want to hire certified candidates? If
        a resume has a certified label, they sometimes are really tempted to
        leave it out. They had a lot of bad experiences with certified
        candidates (which is pretty obvious). Someone was telling me a few
        days back that programming certifications in BD is an all time low,
        and people only consider that for H1B :) I am glad the project
        managers and senior programmers of BD are smarter, and created this
        trend of discouraging certifications. I have confidence that the test
        managers and senior testers will do the same, eventually.

        Most of the senior testers and test managers (and managers) I know are
        encouraging testing certifications without analyzing certifications in
        detail, without being certified themselves, or have interviewed very
        very few or no certified testers. They probably think that
        certification is the answer to the testing problems of BD. Hope they
        get enlightened like the rest of the software development professions
        in BD.

        I am very proud of the BD software professionals. They just refuse to be fooled.

        > 2. You are experienced. But you are looking for a better job. And you
        > are observing that companies are giving values more to them who have
        > certifications as a plus point. Then you need certification to get a better
        > job.

        Again...Which country are you talking about? I haven't heard that in
        BD. The only morons I heard of were rejecting candidates based on if
        the candidates ever heard ISTQB certifications:

        Here are some questions I ask experienced testers who are not
        certified. Would you really want to work for a company whose HR will
        give you attention for your certification, and will not consider you
        (or consider you over a certified candidate) even if you just show
        your experience as a tester? Do you really think they would value your
        testing skills once you are hired? Because to them, you would probably
        be just a commodity (i.e. just another certificate holder).

        One certified tester and advocate of certification, told me his ethics
        would not support this kind of consideration.

        I understand that sometimes a very well paying company (not in BD) may
        be preferring certified candidates. But would you just want to join a
        company just for the money, whose ideals you do not believe in. That
        would not be your only opportunity, because there are countless other
        companies who do not prefer certified candidates. You will probably
        have more job satisfaction their, because they will be respecting your
        skills and not your certification.

        > 3. You are not a self learner. You do not study if someone doesn't
        > tell you read but you want to learn something. That means you need always a
        > guide to teach you. Then you can go for education-based certification not
        > exam based.

        This is a silly thing to say. He is a self learner, and yet he does
        not study if someone doesn't tell him to read, and yet he wants to
        learn. In reality, he is not a self learner, and so don't give him the
        credit. Please read:

        > 4. Your company wants to see you certified because they are thinking
        > they will get more work/money by showing this to client. Then you must do
        > certification if you do not want to lose the job.

        Since when did clients or company management know better about
        software development than the practitioners. You start buying into all
        the demands of ignorant clients and management and you will get into
        trouble. It is our job to make the clients and management understand
        that their demands are baseless. If they do not understand, then we
        should look elsewhere, unless we are just in it for the money. The
        client wants a solutions to their problems, and if you can convince
        them that there are better ways to do it, then the intelligent among
        them will agree. Similarly for management.

        Consider this case for the programming teams. The successful and
        intelligent project managers I know, will not agree to a client or
        management who demands that all their programmers need to be
        certified. They are experienced enough to know better and will try to
        convince the clients otherwise, or stay away from that client or

        > 5. There are some people always who love to collect certificates. If
        > you fall in that category then you can take another certification no matter
        > what's the subject is.

        What a SILLY hobby. I personally would stay away from them.

        > Who does not need certification?

        When reading this part of your post, it made me realize that you are
        intelligent and probably made up all the points above for being
        certified just for the sake of it :)

        > 4. Certification can add some values to our career. This is one of
        > the reasons for which some of us try for it. But if you are in such a
        > situation that you are already honorable, valuable and famous in your field
        > then you do not need it.

        No one needs certificaiton, and I mentioned exactly why in my previous posts :)

        > 5. Who certified them who started certification first? Where the
        > starter did not need certification why are you interested?

        Testing certification is a very profitable business, that is
        flourishing because of the ignorance of people who promote them. The
        certifiers would not want people to get smarter because that would
        hurt their revenue. I for one do not want to make these business men
        rich by feeding on naive individuals. Thanks.

        Sajjadul Hakim
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