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Re: [sptranslators] Re: TERM a black man ing al esp

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  • Mar Rodríguez
    Hola: Me ... Yo normalmente utilizo un hombre de raza negra , porque me parece lo más aséptico. Por experiencia bastante directa, lo del hombre de color
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
      Hola:

      Me
      > parece que "un negro" suena despectivo, por lo menos aquí en
      > Argentina, y para nada PC, un hombre de color o de raza negra sería
      > lo más apropiado.

      Yo normalmente utilizo "un hombre de raza negra", porque me parece lo más aséptico.

      Por experiencia bastante directa, lo del "hombre de color" siempre provoca preguntas
      (¿De qué color? ¿Los demás son incoloros?) y no suele funcionar bien...

      Suerte y saludos,

      Mar
    • Joan Shnier
      De acuerdo, a mí tampoco me gusta la opción de colorido. Gracias, Joan Mar Rodríguez wrote: Hola: Yo normalmente utilizo un hombre de
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
        De acuerdo, a m� tampoco me gusta la opci�n de colorido.

        Gracias,

        Joan

        Mar Rodr�guez <agua@...> wrote:
        Hola:


        Yo normalmente utilizo "un hombre de raza negra", porque me parece lo m�s as�ptico.

        Por experiencia bastante directa, lo del "hombre de color" siempre provoca preguntas
        (�De qu� color? �Los dem�s son incoloros?) y no suele funcionar bien...

        Suerte y saludos,

        Mar




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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary Maloof
        Hi Joan, If you re talking about a black man in the United States, you may use afroamericano, a literal translation of the PC term African American. This
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
          Hi Joan,

          If you're talking about a black man in the United States, you may use
          "afroamericano," a literal translation of the PC term "African American."

          This is the standard descriptor used by Hispanic journalists in the United
          States when talking about blacks. I know this because I work with a major
          Hispanic newspaper.

          Thank you,
          Mary
          Moderadora, SpTranslators


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joan Shnier
          Great piece of information, Mary, thanks. My market is Canadian and I have not heard the term Afrocanadian here, nor seen afrocanadiense, but I will now have
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
            Great piece of information, Mary, thanks. My market is Canadian and I have not heard the term Afrocanadian here, nor seen afrocanadiense, but I will now have my atenas up and start looking! Thanks.

            Joan

            Mary Maloof <mmaloof@...> wrote:
            Hi Joan,

            If you're talking about a black man in the United States, you may use
            "afroamericano," a literal translation of the PC term "African American."

            This is the standard descriptor used by Hispanic journalists in the United
            States when talking about blacks. I know this because I work with a major
            Hispanic newspaper.

            Thank you,
            Mary
            Moderadora, SpTranslators


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • RMM
            Dear Mary, With all due respect, I find the language spoken by Latin Americans in the United States highly unsuitable to be followed as model. Take the
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
              Dear Mary,

              With all due respect, I find the "language" spoken by Latin Americans in the


              United States highly unsuitable to be followed as model.
              Take the pitiful "truco" for truck, for instance, or the sorry acceptance of


              "American" ("americano") to refer to US citizens - as if the American
              continent were restricted only to the US - and "Hispanic" ("hispano") to
              refer to themselves - as if the millions of Latin Americans of Portuguese
              background did not count.
              Living in Patagonia, I know lots of Argentines without a single drop of
              Spanish blood in them. Why should they then be referred to as "Hispanics"?

              Furthermore, as someone on this list rightly pointed out, the US has always
              been immersed in a racial controversy that, fortunately, has not spread
              beyond its borders. The solutions attempted by the US give evidence of
              ignorance and incapability to deal with the issue. In the US (nation where I


              was brought up and which I hold deeply in my heart, maintaining strong ties
              with it), a citizen of Italian roots is referred to as "Italian-American",
              and one of Irish roots as "Irish-American". Only very
              rarely does one hear "European-American". Is Africa a nation? Why then
              African American" or "Afro American"?

              I love the US, but still feel no one should pick its gross errors and set
              them as standard.

              BTW, I consider the "hombre de raza negra" alternative as the most PC,
              risk-free option, although the few blacks in Argentina I know accept the
              term "negro" when someone speaks about them in the same spirit as I accept
              the term "blanco" when someone speaks about me.

              roddie

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Margaret Schroeder
              ... I have not heard the term Afrocanadian here, nor seen afrocanadiense, but I will now have my atenas up and start looking! Thanks. Even if you find it, I
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
                --- In sptranslators@yahoogroups.com, Joan Shnier <joanshnier@y...> wrote:
                > Great piece of information, Mary, thanks. My market is Canadian and
                I have not heard the term Afrocanadian here, nor seen afrocanadiense,
                but I will now have my atenas up and start looking! Thanks.

                Even if you find it, I would not trust it. I don't believe that
                Afrocanadian would have the same connotation as Afroamerican, because
                the history of Black immigration to Canada has a different history
                than to the U.S. For example, many more Black Canadians
                (proportionately) than Black Americans are direct or first-generation
                immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean rather than descendants of
                Africans brought to America long ago as slaves.

                As for your term, I still think "persona/hombre de raza negra" (as
                ratified by some other posters) is the best option.

                HTH
                Margaret S.
              • Steven Marzuola
                ... I m laughing, because many Spanish-speakers in Texas (and northern Mexico) would that you misspelled troca . ... But Roddie, that s not limited to US
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
                  --- In sptranslators@yahoogroups.com, "RMM" <ochaye@b...> wrote:
                  > Dear Mary,
                  >
                  > With all due respect, I find the "language" spoken by Latin
                  > Americans in the United States highly unsuitable to be followed
                  > as model. Take the pitiful "truco" for truck, for instance, or

                  I'm laughing, because many Spanish-speakers in Texas (and northern
                  Mexico) would that you misspelled "troca".

                  > the sorry acceptance of "American" ("americano") to refer to US
                  > citizens - as if the American continent were restricted only to
                  > the US

                  But Roddie, that's not limited to US Hispanics. Americans call
                  themselves "Americans"; Canadians call us "Americans", as do many
                  Latin Americans, Europeans, Asians, and Africans. I grew up in
                  Venezuela and I was the "americano", in public. When I was 18, a
                  Venezuelan friend and I spent a couple of weeks in Italy with some
                  Italian, German, and Austrian students. I was "il americano". My
                  wife's relatives in Trinidad say she's married to an "American". US
                  Nobel-Prize winning physicist Richard Feynman lived in Brazil and
                  played the drums in a samba school at Carnaval. Many of his fellow
                  band members from poor slums knew him simply as "o americano".

                  I agree it's imperfect, but it's just a result of the name of the
                  country: United States of America. Blame the Founding Fathers. In
                  almost every case it's simply a shorter way to refer to people from
                  the USA. Most of the speakers don't intend any disrespect to the rest
                  of North and South America.

                  > - and "Hispanic" ("hispano") to refer to themselves - as if the
                  > millions of Latin Americans of Portuguese background did not
                  > count.

                  That's controversial. Some Hispanics call themselves don't like
                  "Hispanic" and call themselves "Latinos". There's an organization
                  called "LULAC" = League of United Latin American Citizens", maybe
                  that's a better term.

                  While I was in high school (central Texas) the use of the terms
                  "chicano" was growing; however, a Mexican-American classmate said that
                  her family was very offended by "chicano".

                  As with "americano", (a) it's not just Hispanics who call themselves
                  "Hispanics", it's politicians, the Census Bureau, school boards,
                  various other government and non-government organizations. And (b)
                  it's usually intended as shorthand.

                  By the way, depending on the context, I sometimes call myself an
                  "Anglo". "White" or European-Americans are still the largest ethnic
                  group in Houston, but no longer the majority.

                  > Living in Patagonia, I know lots of Argentines without a single
                  > drop of Spanish blood in them. Why should they then be referred
                  > to as "Hispanics"?

                  Despite the efforts of school administrators and the like, they don't
                  have to. They can call themselves what they want if they insist. The
                  term arose because of the millions of Spanish speakers who do, or at
                  least have "Hispanic" last names. And like every simplified way of
                  doing something, it doesn't cover every situation.

                  "A scientific theory should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.
                  -- Albert Einstein

                  If I understand it correctly, Argentina has a (small) native American
                  population, then there were immigrants mostly from Spain and a
                  significant number from the British isles. Then large numbers came
                  during the late 19th and early 20th century from Italy and Germany.
                  There's some variety. But it doesn't begin to approach the racial mix
                  of the USA: much more Africans, more Asians (Chinese, Koreans), and
                  during the last couple of decades, eastern Europeans, south Asians
                  (Indians, Pakistanis), and significant numbers of Muslims. There's at
                  least one Muslim family in my neighborhood and a number of Japanese.

                  (I'm not bragging or complaining. Just pointing out that the racial
                  and ethnic mix is different than in Argentina. Terms that make sense
                  here will seem pointless there and vice versa.)

                  > Furthermore, as someone on this list rightly pointed out, the US
                  > has always been immersed in a racial controversy that,
                  > fortunately, has not spread beyond its borders.

                  The US still has racism. But it is not alone. There is racism in many
                  countries. In Venezuela in the 1960's and 1970's, I was asked, "why
                  do you Americans treat black people so poorly?" I didn't know what to
                  tell them, I had not lived in the USA since I was two years old.

                  But later, Venezuelans have acknowledged more subtle forms of racism,
                  such as, in beauty pageants and television commercials. Acquaintances
                  who have traveled and lived in Brazil say the same thing. They're
                  proud to say they're "not racist" but there are prejudices and
                  barriers against the darker-skinned.

                  > The solutions attempted by the US give evidence of ignorance and
                  > incapability to deal with the issue.

                  I disagree. Yes, there are many, many imperfections, but more often
                  than not, I see people and organizations in the USA bending over
                  backwards to try not to offend people of other races and
                  nationalities. This has been a discussion topic at informal meetings
                  of the local translator association. Most of the members are
                  foreign-born, and are immediately identifiable as "foreigners" to
                  Americans because of their accents.

                  > In the US (nation where I was brought up and which I hold deeply
                  > in my heart, maintaining strong ties with it), a citizen of
                  > Italian roots is referred to as "Italian-American", and one of
                  > Irish roots as "Irish-American". Only very rarely does one hear
                  > "European-American". Is Africa a nation? Why then African
                  > American" or "Afro American"?

                  Funny you should mention that. My father's parents were both born in
                  Italy but he has have never called himself an "Italian-American". In
                  fact, a couple of years ago I realized that more than anything else,
                  my children are "Western European-American". Their combined ancestry
                  includes English, Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, French, and
                  Corsican, and possibly others.

                  My impression is that the people who use those hyphenated terms are
                  the ones that live in communities where they had to stick together,
                  such as New York City, or anywhere they still live together in large
                  numbers.

                  And I would suggest that "African-Americans" feel the same way,
                  because of constant reminders of racism. Also, unlike those with
                  ancestors from Europe, many African-Americans don't know what country
                  their ancestors came from.

                  Different people react differently to this. Malcolm X took that name
                  to symolize the loss of his national origin. On the other hand,
                  actress/comedienne Whoopi Goldberg says that she doesn't consider
                  herself an African-American; instead, she's a black American.

                  > I love the US, but still feel no one should pick its gross errors
                  > and set them as standard.

                  I tend to agree, there are aspects of US "culture" that should never
                  be exported. But I see in the USA a nation that is (mostly) trying to
                  acknowledge that it is multi-ethnic, even when it's not always
                  successfull.

                  Some other countries sweep their racism under the rug. In another
                  group, a Frenchman decried the gathering of statistics on race on
                  American school districts, police reports, and other public documents.
                  Such policies would not be permitted in France, he said. But I
                  remember during the 1998 World Cup finals, some of the French players
                  of Algerian descent took advantage of the publicity, to talk about the
                  pervasive racism that they experienced while growing up in France. My
                  mother had a friend from Venezuela whose daughter lived in Paris for a
                  couple of years. Some of her neighbors were as racist as any American
                  redneck. Some Italians were very offended when a black woman born in
                  the Dominican Republic won the title of "Miss Italy" in 1997. "She's
                  not a real Italian," they said.

                  The US institutions that I am familiar with gather these statistics
                  for several reasons. But it's not just to comply with the laws. In
                  some cases it'so that they can say, accurately, that they do not
                  discriminate. It's an old saying in management, "what doesn't get
                  measured, doesn't get done."

                  > BTW, I consider the "hombre de raza negra" alternative as the
                  > most PC, risk-free option, although the few blacks in Argentina
                  > I know accept the term "negro" when someone speaks about them
                  > in the same spirit as I accept the term "blanco" when someone
                  > speaks about me.

                  Probably a good summary.

                  By the way, if anybody wants to continue this thread, it's probably a
                  good idea to take it to Sptranslators_chat.

                  Steven
                • Joan Shnier
                  I tend to agree with you. Thanks for your help. Joan ... I have not heard the term Afrocanadian here, nor seen afrocanadiense, but I will now have my atenas
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 1, 2005
                    I tend to agree with you. Thanks for your help.

                    Joan


                    Margaret Schroeder <marjurr@...> wrote:

                    --- In sptranslators@yahoogroups.com, Joan Shnier <joanshnier@y...> wrote:
                    > Great piece of information, Mary, thanks. My market is Canadian and
                    I have not heard the term Afrocanadian here, nor seen afrocanadiense,
                    but I will now have my atenas up and start looking! Thanks.

                    Even if you find it, I would not trust it. I don't believe that
                    Afrocanadian would have the same connotation as Afroamerican, because
                    the history of Black immigration to Canada has a different history
                    than to the U.S. For example, many more Black Canadians
                    (proportionately) than Black Americans are direct or first-generation
                    immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean rather than descendants of
                    Africans brought to America long ago as slaves.

                    As for your term, I still think "persona/hombre de raza negra" (as
                    ratified by some other posters) is the best option.

                    HTH
                    Margaret S.





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                  • Terry
                    Hello Roddie, ===8 With all due respect, I find the language spoken by R Latin Americans in the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                      Hello Roddie,

                      ===8<=== Tuesday, February 1, 2005 at 11:01:06 AM, you wrote:

                      R> With all due respect, I find the "language" spoken by
                      R> Latin Americans in the United States highly unsuitable to
                      R> be followed as model. Take the pitiful "truco" for
                      R> truck, for instance,

                      If you're referring to the Tex-Mex variant of Spanish, it's
                      "troca" and not "truco". I believe it may be the same in
                      Cal-Mex and NewMex-Mex. ;-)

                      An equivalent American English dialect might be Black
                      English, also known as Ebonics.

                      All of the above are examples of non-standard language,
                      spoken by certain segments of the population. However, not
                      all Latinos or Hispanics in the US use such variants, just
                      as not all Blacks use Ebonics, and just as not all Spanish
                      speakers in Latin America use "polecía" for "policía."

                      And I would venture to say that the Spanish spoken (and
                      written) by the members of the Academia Norteamericana de la
                      Lengua Española, based out of New York, is a far cry from
                      the non-standard Spanish mentioned in your generalization:
                      "En 1980, en el Congreso de la Asociación celebrado en Lima,
                      la Academia Norteamericana fue aceptada en el seno de la
                      Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española, con los
                      mismos derechos y obligaciones que las otras veintiuna.
                      [...] El objetivo principal de la Academia Norteamericana es
                      la unidad y defensa del español en los Estados Unidos (país
                      que cuenta ya con más de 35 millones de hispanohablantes)".

                      For more info on the Academia Norteamericana de la
                      Lengua Española, see this page:
                      http://www.georgetown.edu/academia/historia.html


                      R> or the sorry acceptance of "American" ("americano") to
                      R> refer to US citizens - as if the American continent were
                      R> restricted only to the US - and "Hispanic" ("hispano") to
                      R> refer to themselves - as if the millions of Latin
                      R> Americans of Portuguese background did not count.

                      From the "Excelso DRAE," 22nd. Ed., 2001:

                      americano, na.
                      1. adj. Natural de América. U. t. c. s.
                      2. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a esta parte del mundo.
                      3. adj. indiano (que vuelve rico de América).
                      4. adj. estadounidense. Apl. a pers., u. t. c. s.
                      5. f. Chaqueta de tela, con solapas y botones, que llega
                      por debajo de la cadera.

                      Before you ask, the DRAE does not define "América" or any
                      "Norte," "Central," or "Sur/Sud" version of it. ;-)

                      hispano, na. (Del lat. Hispanus).
                      1. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a Hispania.
                      2. adj. español. Apl. a pers., u. t. c. s.
                      3. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a las naciones de
                      Hispanoamérica.
                      4. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a la población de origen
                      hispanoamericano que vive en los Estados Unidos de América.
                      5. m. y f. Persona de ese origen que vive en los Estados
                      Unidos de América.

                      hispano-. (De hispano).
                      1. elem. compos. Significa 'español'. Hispanófilo,
                      hispanoamericano.

                      hispanoamericano, na.
                      1. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a españoles y americanos.
                      2. adj. Compuesto de elementos propios de uno y otro pueblo.
                      3. adj. Se dice de los países de América en que se habla el
                      español.
                      4. adj. Se dice de los individuos de habla española nacidos
                      o naturalizados en esos países. U. t. c. s.

                      latinoamericano, na.
                      1. adj. Se dice del conjunto de los países de América
                      colonizados por naciones latinas, es decir, España,
                      Portugal o Francia.


                      R> Living in Patagonia, I know lots of Argentines without a
                      R> single drop of Spanish blood in them. Why should they
                      R> then be referred to as "Hispanics"?

                      Because they speak Spanish. See "hispano" #3 and
                      "hispanoamericano" #3 and #4.


                      R> a citizen of Italian roots is referred to as
                      R> "Italian-American", and one of Irish roots as
                      R> "Irish-American". Only very rarely does one hear
                      R> "European-American". Is Africa a nation? Why then African
                      R> American" or "Afro American"?

                      I imagine it has to do with the fact that the national
                      origin of slaves imported into the United States probably
                      was not tracked.


                      R> I love the US, but still feel no one should pick its
                      R> gross errors and set them as standard.

                      Personally, whenever I have to translate the name of an
                      entity that incorporates "American" or "of America," I tend
                      to use "Estadounidense" or "de Estados Unidos" -- unless the
                      organization has an official translation of its name, in
                      which case I use that.

                      --

                      Terry

                      .
                    • RMM
                      Dear Terry, I found Steven s and your message highly illustrating. I never paid much attention to the dialect used by the Latin American population in the US,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                        Dear Terry,

                        I found Steven's and your message highly illustrating. I never paid much
                        attention to the dialect used by the Latin American population in the US,
                        hence my mistake in spelling "truco" instead of "troca".
                        As you rightly say, it's a non-standard language, and as such should not be
                        set as standard unless dealing with the specific segment of the population
                        that uses it.

                        Many times, for the sake of brevity in the idea we wish to convey, we all
                        tend to use minor generalizations that are harmless if they do not go
                        against the accuracy of the point we wish to make.

                        I do own a copy of DRAE, although an earlier edition than the 2001 one you
                        mention. Mine does not include a US citizen under "americano". Can we
                        perhaps be dealing with a solecism here?

                        With respect to the term "Hispanic", let me give you an example of how
                        ridiculous the term is. In the US, the term not only applies to country of
                        origin but also to race. I have friends who were born in Buenos Aires -
                        which technically makes them "Hispanic" -, yet they are of English descent,
                        of very white complexion. What would they be then, Caucasian Hispanics? If
                        so, a US citizen of South African descent (Boer) would be a Caucasian
                        African American?
                        Lots of people I know have trouble identifying their race in the US. They
                        are given a form and are at a loss as to how to fill the race box.

                        As I said in my original "generalization-filled" message, these terms are
                        the result of sheer ignorance and incapability. Are we to perpetuate this?

                        All the best!

                        roddie
                      • Terry
                        Hello Roddie, ===8 I found Steven s and your message highly illustrating. R [snip] I sent my
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                          Hello Roddie,

                          ===8<=== Wednesday, February 2, 2005 at 6:36:10 AM, you wrote:

                          R> I found Steven's and your message highly illustrating.
                          R> [snip]

                          I sent my answer to the other list, since we've moved far
                          off-topic:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sptranslators_chat/message/156

                          --

                          Terry

                          .
                        • Hector D. Calabia
                          ... The newest DRAE definition (even the ones still unpublished on paper) at: http://buscon.rae.es/diccionario/drae.htm americano 4. adj.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                            RMM, 13:36 02/02/2005:
                            >I do own a copy of DRAE, although an earlier edition than the 2001 one you
                            >mention. Mine does not include a US citizen under "americano". Can we
                            >perhaps be dealing with a solecism here?

                            The newest DRAE definition (even the ones still unpublished on paper) at:
                            http://buscon.rae.es/diccionario/drae.htm
                            americano 4. adj.
                            <http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?TIPO_HTML=2&LEMA=estadounidense&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No>estadounidense.
                            Apl. a pers., u. t. c. s.

                            >With respect to the term "Hispanic", let me give you an example of how
                            >ridiculous the term is. In the US, the term not only applies to country of
                            >origin but also to race. I have friends who were born in Buenos Aires -
                            >which technically makes them "Hispanic" -, yet they are of English descent,
                            >of very white complexion.

                            Most people born in Argentina are entirely Caucasian, yet they are
                            Hispanic, according to the US Census definition. So are (or should be) the
                            Spaniards themselves... if they (we) are not Hispanic -- although entirely
                            white -- who can be?

                            In fact, the US Census warns that "Hispanic" is not a race definition any
                            more, and that it can cover any race. To qualify for being Hispanic you
                            have to be of Spanish descent, or having been born (and educated) in a
                            Spanish-speaking country. Ricky Martin is Hispanic, for instance. However,
                            aside from the census, the usual perception in the US is that Hispanic is a
                            race, usually a mixture of European and indigenous people of the Americas
                            -- but not "native Americans," in PC parlance! The mixture can be very
                            diluted: many "Hispanics" hardly have a drop of European blood.

                            Latinos are more or less the same. The term does not recognize that a
                            sizeable portion of Europeans are of Latin origin: France, Spain, Andorra,
                            -- and, of course, Italy (Latin = from the Latio = a region of Italy, near
                            Rome) -- are Latin countries.

                            Hector D. Calabia
                            Translations into Spanish from English, Italian and Portuguese
                            http://www.proz.com/translator/6200
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                          • Gerard Michael Burns
                            ... From: RMM ... I think we tread dangerous ground if we pretend to correct the errors of lesser mortals. Our political opinions
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "RMM" <ochaye@...>

                              > Dear Terry,
                              > I found Steven's and your message highly illustrating. I never paid much
                              > attention to the dialect used by the Latin American population in the US,
                              > hence my mistake in spelling "truco" instead of "troca".
                              > As you rightly say, it's a non-standard language, and as such should not
                              > be
                              > set as standard unless dealing with the specific segment of the population
                              > that uses it.
                              >
                              > Many times, for the sake of brevity in the idea we wish to convey, we all
                              > tend to use minor generalizations that are harmless if they do not go
                              > against the accuracy of the point we wish to make.
                              >
                              > I do own a copy of DRAE, although an earlier edition than the 2001 one you
                              > mention. Mine does not include a US citizen under "americano". Can we
                              > perhaps be dealing with a solecism here?
                              >
                              > With respect to the term "Hispanic", let me give you an example of how
                              > ridiculous the term is. In the US, the term not only applies to country of
                              > origin but also to race. I have friends who were born in Buenos Aires -
                              > which technically makes them "Hispanic" -, yet they are of English
                              > descent,
                              > of very white complexion. What would they be then, Caucasian Hispanics? If
                              > so, a US citizen of South African descent (Boer) would be a Caucasian
                              > African American?
                              > Lots of people I know have trouble identifying their race in the US. They
                              > are given a form and are at a loss as to how to fill the race box.
                              >
                              > As I said in my original "generalization-filled" message, these terms are
                              > the result of sheer ignorance and incapability. Are we to perpetuate this?
                              >
                              > All the best!
                              >
                              > roddie

                              I think we tread dangerous ground if we pretend to correct the errors of
                              lesser mortals. Our political opinions are as subject to being wrong as
                              those who you or I might decide to describe (seeing ourselves as perfectly
                              objective, and above all, correct) as 'ignorant and incapable'.

                              I think that as translators we must conform to the usages that will be best
                              understood the way the original in the source language was. That should take
                              into account who the audience is, so if I do work for the OAS I would expect
                              to see or use "estadounidense", but when I talk to ordinary people not
                              involved in politics,I find they always use 'americano', when indeed they
                              don't use 'gringo' (usually not knowing that some sensitive souls might be
                              offended by the term).

                              Michael Burns
                            • RMM
                              Dear Hector, I found your message to be very interesting. You are certainly right in that many Hispanics have no European blood in them whatsoever. However,
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                                Dear Hector,

                                I found your message to be very interesting. You are certainly right in that
                                many "Hispanics" have no European blood in them whatsoever.

                                However, the US Census still fails to correct the situation, as quoted below
                                from your message,:

                                "In fact, the US Census warns that "Hispanic" is not a race definition any
                                more, and that it can cover any race. To qualify for being Hispanic you have
                                to be of Spanish descent, or having been born (and educated) in a
                                Spanish-speaking country."

                                Take for instance my friend Fredrick Reddel Hyland, of 100% English descent
                                but born and educated in Argentina. If the Census were to be followed, he
                                would still be considered Hispanic. So, he would be "Hispanic" as to origin,
                                but "Caucasian" as to race? A Caucasian Hispanic? I'm sure more than one son
                                of Uncle Sam would find it funny.

                                Finally, this fear of calling black black and white white tells you
                                something, does it not? What we are trying to do here is hide a big
                                problem under euphemisms such as African American.

                                Sorry, Steven, for keeping this thread here. I replied to Terry on the chat
                                line but fail to see my reply now.

                                roddie
                              • RMM
                                Dear Michael, My opinion in this thread is certainly not politically oriented. I resort to logic here. And as translators, when talking to ordinary people, we
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                                  Dear Michael,

                                  My opinion in this thread is certainly not politically oriented. I resort to
                                  logic here.

                                  And as translators, when talking to ordinary people, we should try to teach
                                  with our example. For instance, I love it when I see "et cetera" spelled as
                                  a 2-word phrase. It makes people wonder whether a mistake was made, and
                                  finally learn that that is the correct way to spell it, plus they get to
                                  know the original meaning in Latin.
                                  I never hear an Argentine physician speak of "jaqueca" to refer to "headache

                                  , when that is the word the masses use in Argentina. These professionals
                                  stick to the right term (what I object from physicians is their use of the
                                  term "doctor" to refer to themselves, when they are certainly no doctors).

                                  My tools are words. I will use them, but that does not prevent me from
                                  seeing the imperfections in many of them. Perhaps by pointing them out one
                                  day they may be corrected.

                                  Ah, and although a few days late, Happy Burns' Night!

                                  roddie
                                • Terry
                                  Hello Roddie, ===8 Sorry, Steven, for keeping this thread here. I replied to R Terry on the chat
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                                    Hello Roddie,

                                    ===8<=== Wednesday, February 2, 2005 at 1:31:00 PM, you wrote:

                                    R> Sorry, Steven, for keeping this thread here. I replied to
                                    R> Terry on the chat line but fail to see my reply now.

                                    You have to be a member of sptranslators_chat to post to the
                                    list, but anyone can read the posted messages. Just send a
                                    blank email to: sptranslators_chat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                    This discussion really needs to move to the other list,
                                    folks. [nudge, nudge]

                                    --

                                    Terry Co-Moderator

                                    .
                                  • Martina Romano Pistarini
                                    Sorry, want to check if I got the right meaning. Do you mean that most argentinians use the word jaqueca to refer to headache? Because being an Argentinian I
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 2, 2005
                                      Sorry, want to check if I got the right meaning. Do you mean that most argentinians use the word "jaqueca" to refer to headache?

                                      Because being an Argentinian I have never used that word (though it is probably the correct way to say it) I always say "dolor de cabeza", and most the people I konow too. Perhaps it has to do with upper class usage of words?

                                      Martina :-)

                                      ---- Original Message -----
                                      From: RMM
                                      To: sptranslators@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:40 PM
                                      Subject: Re: Re[2]: [sptranslators] TERM a black man ing al esp


                                      I never hear an Argentine physician speak of "jaqueca" to refer to "headache

                                      , when that is the word the masses use in Argentina.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Patrick Moore
                                      ... And here in Georgia USA also! I think it s a pretty fair bet that lots of these Spanglish words that were formerly only heard in the southwestern states
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 3, 2005
                                        >
                                        > If you're referring to the Tex-Mex variant of Spanish, it's
                                        > "troca" and not "truco". I believe it may be the same in
                                        > Cal-Mex and NewMex-Mex. ;-)


                                        And here in Georgia USA also! I think it's a pretty fair bet that lots of
                                        these Spanglish words that were formerly only heard in the southwestern
                                        states are now probably heard throughout the US.
                                      • Patrick Moore
                                        ... Actually, it is certain African Americans who have (or who originially did so...) popularized the use of said terminology here in the US. I doubt those
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 3, 2005
                                          > Finally, this fear of calling black black and white white tells you
                                          > something, does it not? What we are trying to do here is hide a big
                                          > problem under euphemisms such as African American.


                                          Actually, it is certain African Americans who have (or who originially did
                                          so...) popularized the use of said terminology here in the US. I doubt those
                                          people would have accepted your assertion; that is, their intent was not to
                                          "hide" the problem of racism. To a certain extent the rest of us (most of
                                          us) feel somewhat obliged to comply with this request (to call them what
                                          they want to be called), as it seems a reasonable one. Of course, you are
                                          correct in as much as this terminology may tell us something fundamental
                                          about the sociology of race in the US.

                                          No doubt not all blacks prefer this terminology, and I've heard that it is
                                          not unusual for black visitors and immigrants who are actually from Africa
                                          to take issue with it (and very rightly so, in my opinion.)

                                          To be sure, "African American" is by no means the ONLY "politically correct"
                                          term for black people in US English. "Blacks" is also used very often in
                                          respectable newspapers, scholarly articles and similarly high-register
                                          writing, with no negative connotations whatsoever, and it's perfectly
                                          acceptable. You USED to see and hear often "people of color" (in my opinion
                                          the worst option of these three), but not so much anymore.

                                          take care
                                          Patrick
                                        • Gerard Michael Burns
                                          ... From: Patrick Moore ... I remember the debate first-hand, and the rationale was that adopting African-American would match the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 4, 2005
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Patrick Moore" <pkmoore@...>

                                            >> Finally, this fear of calling black black and white white tells you
                                            >> something, does it not? What we are trying to do here is hide a big
                                            >> problem under euphemisms such as African American.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Actually, it is certain African Americans who have (or who originially did
                                            > so...) popularized the use of said terminology here in the US. I doubt
                                            > those
                                            > people would have accepted your assertion; that is, their intent was not
                                            > to
                                            > "hide" the problem of racism. To a certain extent the rest of us (most of
                                            > us) feel somewhat obliged to comply with this request (to call them what
                                            > they want to be called), as it seems a reasonable one. Of course, you are
                                            > correct in as much as this terminology may tell us something fundamental
                                            > about the sociology of race in the US.
                                            >
                                            > No doubt not all blacks prefer this terminology, and I've heard that it is
                                            > not unusual for black visitors and immigrants who are actually from Africa
                                            > to take issue with it (and very rightly so, in my opinion.)
                                            >
                                            > To be sure, "African American" is by no means the ONLY "politically
                                            > correct"
                                            > term for black people in US English. "Blacks" is also used very often in
                                            > respectable newspapers, scholarly articles and similarly high-register
                                            > writing, with no negative connotations whatsoever, and it's perfectly
                                            > acceptable. You USED to see and hear often "people of color" (in my
                                            > opinion
                                            > the worst option of these three), but not so much anymore.
                                            >
                                            > take care
                                            > Patrick

                                            I remember the debate first-hand, and the rationale was that adopting
                                            "African-American" would match the other usage of "hyphenated Americans", to
                                            wit; Irish-American, Italian-American, etc.

                                            There had been an earlier attempt to popularize this type of formulation,
                                            "Afro-American", but it failed because it tied into to many stupid
                                            references to the "Afro" hairstyle that became popular at about the same
                                            time.

                                            Michael Burns
                                          • Terry
                                            Hola All: This thread is very interesting and all, but it s become more of a lengthy chat-discussion than anything else, and, as far as I know, nobody needs
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Feb 4, 2005
                                              Hola All:

                                              This thread is very interesting and all, but it's become
                                              more of a lengthy chat-discussion than anything else, and,
                                              as far as I know, nobody needs the info to meet a tight
                                              deadline...

                                              So please, pretty please with sugar on it, take it to the
                                              other list, and let's keep this list more "lean and mean"
                                              for those who are in need of quick help with terms that are
                                              giving them fits as they try to meet their tight deadlines.

                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sptranslators_chat/

                                              All can read the archives.

                                              To post you have to register: simply send an email to
                                              sptranslators_chat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                              --

                                              Terry / Co-Moderator, still in a mellow mood, although
                                              that's getting a bit iffy...

                                              .
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