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Re: SITUP TESTING?

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  • larry edwards
    Hi, With so much emphasis on ab training, we often overlook the fact that intensive upper ab training also can be a detriment. Strong musculature in the upper
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 25, 1999
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      Hi,
      With so much emphasis on ab training, we often
      overlook the fact that intensive upper ab training
      also can be a detriment. Strong musculature in the
      upper abs also compromises the diaphragm, therefore
      having a negative effect on respiration.

      Not to mention that many coaches still advocate
      raising the shoulders which, we all know works the
      psoas, adductors and hip flexors, not abs.

      Show me an athlete who has overworked the sit-ups and
      I'll show you an athlete with a poor psis to asis
      ratio, too tight hip flexors, including piriformis,
      adductors, gracilis, etc. Now we have an athlete with
      a forward pull, causing lumbar back strain...an
      accident waiting to happen

      So much for the testing, eh?

      Larry




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    • Garry Allison
      Chris Bailey ... Chris is correct in saying that many physiotherapists/physical therapists advocate strongly the importance of abdominals in performance. But
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 25, 1999
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        Chris Bailey
        >To fuel the debate ... many physiotherapists/physical therapists advocate
        >strongly the importance of abdominals in performance. What tests do they
        >use -
        >and what is the reliability/validity?

        Chris is correct in saying that "many physiotherapists/physical therapists
        advocate strongly the importance of abdominals in performance."
        But the single statement can represent people of completely different focus
        - i.e the strength / motor control dichotomy.

        One of the main issues of abdominal function Physiotherapists are
        interested in is the issue of motor control strategies and the development
        of appropriate (feedforward / anticipatory) lumbo-pelvic stabilisation
        strategies and the utilisation of the deeper abdominals* (transversus
        abdominis / lower fibres of internal oblique).

        This philosophy is not related to how many sit-ups one can do but
        nevertheless is directly related to "the abdominal muscles" - so yes I
        would advocate that they are important.

        As for reliability and validity. - A great question. Very limited research
        has been reported in this area.

        We demonstrated the accuracy and consistency of PTs in the Private Practice
        in Perth Western Australia and their ability to identify correct and
        incorrect stabilisation strategies when attempting to isolate the deep
        abdominals. Similarly many clinical research groups are utilising real time
        ultrasound to detect isolated and patterned muscle function (especially of
        the Transversus abdominis). Of course we can use needle electrodes but this
        is of less clinical application.

        Basically, many professional groups (like PT) are working very hard on
        these issues. Of course these profession are within a diverse market place
        and I do hear statements about the validity and reliability of the tests
        each group uses. These are often designed to challenge the position /
        knowledge base of that profession in what other professions see as their
        turf. Interestingly the moment the research is done - it is open to all
        to read, re-name and sell as appropriate on the continuing education
        market !:-).

        So in summary, I am not clear why physiotherapists are isolated for
        advocating abdominal muscle exercises - I don't think it is a single
        advocacy group within a single profession. Similarly it is incorrect to
        think that "the importance of abdominals" means a single concept.

        These opinions may not reflect other people in my profession but I hope it
        clears up some of the issues.

        Garry Allison. PT.

        *In co-activation with segmental muscles of the spine and the pelvic floor
        and diaphragm. Abdominal function should be related to specific antagonists
        and synergists . i.e point #12 by Dr Mel C Siff.

        GTA.


        ______________________________________________
        GT Allison PhD Perth, Western Australia
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        * If you can stay calm, while all around you is chaos..........
        * then you probably haven't completely understood the seriousness of the
        situation.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      • Marco Antonio Veledíaz Alvarez
        Uff! the explanation may be is too scientific and hard to extrapolate in practice. My modest opinion is: There are many variables to consider: If we talk about
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 25, 1999
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          Uff! the explanation may be is too scientific and hard to extrapolate in
          practice.
          My modest opinion is:
          There are many variables to consider:
          If we talk about muscular endurance, then we must consider the levels of
          Maximum Strength on one side and Endurance on the other side.
          What is the purpose of this test within a training program?
          If we want to test strength levels then we should apply a SET/SERIES of
          diferent tests.
          What type of strenght are we going to evaluate? Maximum Strength? just
          muscular endurance?
          How about the back muscles? They also are stabilising muscles.
          If we check the abdominals why forget the back?
          There are a lot of tests (battery) that could give us more practical
          information.

          Marco Veledíaz
          Mexico City
        • Stephen M. Perle, D.C.
          Many of Dr. Siff s concerns are quite valid, as the literature does not support many activities that are part of the orthodoxy of trunk stabilization. I
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 25, 1999
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            Many of Dr. Siff's concerns are quite valid, as the literature does not
            support many activities that are part of the orthodoxy of trunk
            stabilization. I believe an on-line short literature review on trunk
            stabilization might answer many of these questions but leave open
            further discussion as there are still great gaps in what the literature
            provides compelling evidence for. Please see:

            http://www.chiroweb.com/columnist/liebenson/


            --

            _____________________________________________________________________
            Stephen M. Perle, D.C. "A man who knows that
            Assistant Professor of Clinical Sciences he is a fool is not
            University of Bridgeport College of Chiropractic a great fool."
            Bridgeport, CT 06601 Chuang Tzu
            E-mail: perle@...
            http://www.bridgeport.edu/chiro/
            _____________________________________________________________________
          • Denilson Costa
            ... From: larry edwards Subject: Re: SITUP TESTING? ... Please, do you have a reference for that ? ... Exercises like deadlifts and
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 26, 1999
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: larry edwards <namaste157@...>
              Subject: Re: SITUP TESTING?


              > Hi,
              > With so much emphasis on ab training, we often
              > overlook the fact that intensive upper ab training
              > also can be a detriment.


              >Strong musculature in the
              > upper abs also compromises the diaphragm, therefore
              > having a negative effect on respiration.

              Please, do you have a reference for that ?


              > Not to mention that many coaches still advocate
              > raising the shoulders which, we all know works the
              > psoas, adductors and hip flexors, not abs.

              Exercises like deadlifts and stiff legged deadlifts are regarded as lower
              back exercises by many people in the fitness world, even tough while done
              with the traditional rigid trunk style, lower back and spinal erectors are
              just contracted isometrically, while dynamic contratction occurs in the hip
              extensors. This is very close to what happens during a sit up.

              Could we say that just because of that, exercises like deadlifts, cleans,
              high pulls arent doing anything to make the lower back far funtionally
              stronger as well as building very thick muscles there ? Its just a matter of
              looking to the lower back of weightlifters and powerlifters to see how they
              benefit that area.

              It seens most people believe that just dynamic contractions can benefit the
              muscles, while the isometric work is not considered. A friend of mine has
              been on Russia, and he followed some EMG tests of elite athletes who were
              performing very heavy squats. Interestingly the readings were higher at the
              trunk muscles which were helding the bar statically across the shoulders
              than at the legs, performing the "dynamic" work, a fact that was confirmed
              during the subsequent weeks as evidenced by an increase in upper body muscle
              mass !



              >
              > Show me an athlete who has overworked the sit-ups and
              > I'll show you an athlete with a poor psis to asis
              > ratio, too tight hip flexors, including piriformis,
              > adductors, gracilis, etc. Now we have an athlete with
              > a forward pull, causing lumbar back strain...an
              > accident waiting to happen


              I agree with you here Larry, I have observed such correlation with soccer
              players and martial artists, but how can we say that. such condition wasnt
              present perviously ?

              If the sit ups caused the problem, how did it occur ?

              Is it a matter of :

              Strenghtening illiopsoas by itself has the potential to shorten the muscle
              ? )

              Strenghtening illiopsoas during held BENT LEG situps in a partial range has
              the potential to shorten the muscle ( ? )

              or is it a matter of :

              Performing sit ups with bad form until fatigue, so that after ab muscles are
              exausted, the trunk will be lifted off floor entirely by psoas action
              pulling lower back into hyper lordodic curve ?

              commnents welcome,

              Denilson Costa,
              Brasil
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