2. I haven't read the book, but I believe I recently heard the beginning of a lecture by Smolin which intrigued me. There might be something to this. Einstein did NOT believe that time is an illusion; certainly that's no part of his actual theory.

1. The progress of science implies that Spinoza's metaphysics cannot be taken seriously except in a poetic sense. That is true of all the metaphysical systems of Spinoza's era, i.e. the early modern period, in response to the scientific revolution and part of the rebellion against feudal authority.  Given the constraints of metaphysical reasoning and European Christian ideology, Spinoza is revolutionary and his system is certainly analyzable in an illuminating way, but you can't square it with physical science and the implications of physical science.

 

Hi everyone,

I would like to tap again into your collective and individual wisdom regarding two issues:

1- Since we now know that matter and energy are one and the same how does the Attribute of thinking, beingparallel  to the Attribute ofmatter , get its energy? Materiality has/isenergy but  what of thought? If its energy comes from the Substance, thenenergy/matter is present in thought-thought needs energy to act- which according to Spinoza the two cannot explain each other. I am not sure that my argument/question has legs but I would like to get some understanding.

2-A separate issue, I recently read the book Time Reborn by the theoretical physicist Lee Smolin. Great book, difficult subject matter. He seems to bring forth postulates that contradict some of the tenets that hold Spinoza's ideas together. Smolin implies that Time is real and a principal player and not an illusion, as Einstein believed. The universe is bound by/in time. That the laws of nature could evolve. That there is room for novelty (and not as Spinoza believed: radical determinism.) And many more issues.... Has anyone read Lee Osmolin and has any thoughts about his work?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Regards,

Luis

Donovan Rundle says:

"Scientific thought is progressive, in other words,
Homo Sapiens will continue to change and refine scientific knowledge.
But metaphysical knowledge does not show the same progress,
Otherwise, why would Einstein affirm an idea of God which was already
hundreds of years old, and perhaps even identical in essence to the Vedantic wisdom
of ancient India, or perhaps Plotinus."

"Spinoza was chiefly aimed at attaining eternal joy, and was a much better
metaphysician than a scientist."

............................

Now, first of all we can't compare Plotinus with Spinoza, according to me.

Plotinus was a founder of Neoplatonism. His philosophy is "mystic".

Yes Plotinus was a modist...
The "ONE" is his first principle.
And the other 2 principles:
The "Intellect", and the "Soul".

Yes Spinoza was a modist.
"DEUS sive NATURA" is his unique substance.
But no way for other substances.
There is no any other substance in Spinoza system.

The "ONE" is "transcendental" in Plotuinus System.
But "DEUS sive NATURA" is "Immanent" (never transcendental) in Spinoza System.
"Transcendent" is very different from "Immanent" you know.

There is an "emanation" in Plotinus system. Everything is emanationed from "ONE"
But there is a "derivation" in Spinoza system. Everything is derived from "DEUS sive NATURA".
"Emanation" is very different from "Derivation".

There is a "creator" and this creator has a "free will", and "it creates everything with his own free will"
in Plotinus system.

There is no "any creator who has created everything with a free will" in Spinoza System.
Everything is "Natura Naturata" and everything is derives from "Natura Naturans"

There is a hierarchy in Plotinus system among the things which emanationed from "ONE",
in regard to distance to "ONE" and thus "feeling pain" becausa of this distance to "ONE".
But There is no any hierarchy in Spinoza system.

There is an "AIM" in Plotinus system.
The unique way of final happiness or final satisfaction for things which emanationed from "ONE"
is "going back" or "return back" to the "ONE".

But there is no any "aim" or any "goal" in Spinoza system on the contrary of Plotinus sytem.
According to Spinoza there is only and unique way of happines is "Attaining Eternal Joy".
"Attaining eternal Joy" is just truly understanding "DEUS sive Natura" with third kind of knowledge.

Plotinus is finalist.
Spinoza is never finalist. Spnoza says "Here and Now"

All the newplatonist thoughts preaches dominantly "postponing or suspending to another life"
But Spinoza preaches "never postponing or never suspending to another life"

You can't find any "transcendental" or any "ethereally" or any "supreme" thing in Spinoza sytem.
Spinoza preaches just an ethical life which can be applied to daily and practical life.

So Einstein maybe would want to establihs paralels between Spinoza and Plotinus
in terms of just their beliefs about "INFINIT AND ETERNAL UNIVERSE".

Have a very good days.

Oguz
from istanbul






--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 4/18/15, Donovan Rundle donovanrundle@... [spinoza] <spinoza@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [spinoza] Questions
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 18, 2015, 7:03 PM


 










On Apr 18, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Luis
Gutierrez luiguti_88@...
[spinoza] <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Hi
everyone,I would
like to tap again into your collective and individual wisdom
regarding two issues:1- Since
we now know that matter and energy are one and the same how
does the Attribute of thinking, being 
parallel  to the Attribute of  matter
, get its energy? Materiality has/is  energy
but  what of thought? If its energy comes from the
Substance, then 
energy/matter is
present in thought-thought needs energy to act- which
according to Spinoza the two cannot explain each other. I am
not sure that my argument/question has legs but I would like
to get some
understanding.
Scientific thought is
progressive, in other words, Homo Sapiens will continue to
change and refine scientific knowledge.  But metaphysical
knowledge does not show the same progress,  Otherwise, why
would Einstein affirm an idea of God which was already
hundreds of years old, and perhaps even identical in essence
to the Vedantic wisdom of ancient India, or perhaps
Plotinus.  
In Prop 7 Book 2,
Spinoza says that the attributes are one and the same only
perceived as different by the intellect.  That might be
something to wonder about.  Accordingly, mind would not
“get” its “energy” from anywhere.  The attributes,
as I understand them are like Substance to the extant that
existence of of their essence, as they depend directly on
God.  Our own immortal nature becomes clear when we realize
that we too may become directly dependent upon God with
respect to our inmost essence.

2-A
separate issue, I recently read the book Time Reborn by the
theoretical physicist Lee Smolin. Great book, difficult
subject matter. He seems to bring forth postulates that
contradict some of the tenets that hold Spinoza's ideas
together. Smolin implies that Time is real and a principal
player and not an illusion, as Einstein believed. The
universe is bound by/in time. That the laws of nature could
evolve. That there is room for novelty (and not as Spinoza
believed: radical determinism.) And many more issues.... Has
anyone read Lee Osmolin and has any thoughts about his
work?
Haven’t read
this, but did read Sean Carroll’s “From Eternity to
Here.” Also interesting. Spinoza was chiefly aimed at
attaining eternal joy, and was a much better metaphysician
than a scientist.  Until I an able to now and then retire
into God-consciousness as Spinoza claimed to do, I will be
looking mostly for material that helps in my effort to
understand him.  Those works I shall call
“Good.”
Best, d.
Thanks in
advance for your feedback.Regards,Luis












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#yiv1054380136

Well, perhaps not Plotinus, but I think I disagree.

Hi.

-------- Original message --------
From: "blake@... [spinoza]" <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/02/2015 7:34 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spinoza] Re: Questions

 

-------- Original message --------
From: "stuarts55 stuarts55@... [spinoza]" <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/06/2015 8:54 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [spinoza] Re: Questions

 

-------- Original message --------
From: "Blake McBride blake@... [spinoza]" <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/10/2015 6:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [spinoza] Re: Questions

 

Blake says:

“Spinoza is difficult, but once understood, it is clear that the problem was not its complexity.  
The problem was our own prejudices.”

I agree with Blake.
…………….

As far as I understand, there are big differences between Blake’s and Donovan’s thougts.
Like the other spinozists’ thoughts.

Everyone has an own Spinoza as you know.

Why we are not beign simpler and more transparent, more open?

Step by step;

Universe is ruling, in “Macro Level”, determenist phisic laws. (Classical Phisic laws, Newton-Einstein))
Universe is ruling in “Micro Level”, indetermenistic phisic laws. (Quantum Mechanics)

So question is: “how we take our decisions, is there any ‘free will’ in this deterministic world?”

Spinoza says “even God (Deus sive Natura) can’t take his own decisions, just it does because
of it’s spontaneity, it’s inherently, it only derives everything from itself” and “there is no free will in
this deterministic world”

Some Quantum Mechanic commentatorssay “YES, ‘free will’ is possible”, just like teist people say.

My answer is “No, there is no free will in this determinist world”

…………

Blake says “Random events that seem to occur at the sub-atomic level (but magically don't appear at the macro
level).  Random events do not give us free will.”

I agree with Blake.

…………..

Donovan says:

“’Our brain’ is another instance of attempting to isolate or divide one aspect of reality from the rest. 
I don’t get science when it does this without acknowledging the repercussions. These show up in quantum mechanics.”

And Donovan adds that “Trying to place Spinoza’s philosophy into the mold of postPositivist Philosophy of Science
may be interesting,especially to intellectuals, but it tells us mostly about the thinking not so much of the former
great metaphysician and philosopher, and more about those trying to get ahead of tomorrow’s failed theories”.

As far as I understand, Donovan implies “Spinoza’s methaphisics do not walk with positive science or
with another phrase, these kind of efforts is useless”

I can’t agree with Donovan, although I have my reservations about science. Science shouldn’t be idiolized
(like some postmodern approaches do) but even so we should follow it, we never can’t close our eyes to science.

A known scientist, Brian Green says;

“When we look at the laws of phisics  and we triy to find free will we don’t see it. 
Best we can do with Quantum Mechanics to predict the probability that you and an electron would be doing one thing or
another, but the laws have no opening for free will  to take over and guide how things evolve. 
So as far as we can tell based on our understanding today, free will is a very useful feature to buy into but probably a loser.”
………….

Donovan says: 

“Spinoza maintains that we may act freely under certain conditions. “Action” for Spinoza describes 
our behavior/thought when we, in harmony with that which falls under the purview of our nature alone, 
behave or think, without influence by any external cause.”

I again can’t agree with Donovan

“without influence by any external cause”. Yes but we always behave or think with influence
by external and internal causes. In determinist world this is normal. But Spinoza in this determinist
world still opens a door to free man as we know “being aware of this casuality and so being free
of them by the second and third way of knowledge”.

……….

Blake says:

“Spinoza was far, far ahead of his time. This is why it has been so hard for the world to understand him.  
Philosophers like Descartes, Leibniz, Rousseau, and especially Kierkegaard, although they did make some important 
contributions or raise some important questions, are mostly religious apologists. Spinoza was one of the few that
was truly able to transcend religion. As humanity gains understanding, Spinoza makes more sense.  
We sometimes have to imply modern terminology in order to understand what Spinoza understood so long ago.”

I strongly agree with Blake.

……

Blake says:

“It is utterly clear and uncontroversial that there is only one substance.”

Yesssssssssss. 

And this is GOD, this is “DEUS sive NATURA”, this is “UNIVERSE”.

It is Eternal and infinite.

That’s all.

There is no any other creator out of it.

…

Why we always need a “creator”and “created”.

Why we can’t accept easily Spinoza’s “Natura Naturans” and “Natura Naturata”.

Why we can’t accept easily Spinoza’s “Natura Naturata derives from Natura Naturans”.
Why we are tending or why we prefer to say that “ Natura Naturata created by Natura Naturans”

…

Blake says;

“Don't try to make Spinoza's ideas mystical.  They're not.”

I strongly agree with Blake.

Yes, Spinoza’s ideas not just mystical, but not ethereal, not celestial.
He is prince of all philosopher like Deleuze said, and I like him very much.

Donovan had said that i remember because of i had noted it :

“For me, Spinoza is among the greatest human beings to have walked the Earth.”

I strongly agree with Donovan.

……

and I never can’t understand “why we always need ‘a beginning and end’ 

Religious Thought hugs Big Bang Theory because of it includes a beginning and an end.

But nowadays there many different theories say that maybe there was not one but many Big Bans.
Maybe Big Bang was just a phrase,just a transition from previous universe.
Maybe multiverses, maybe parallel universes.

I mean we don’t need a beginning.

Teists say that yes Big Bang is the beginning and it was started by God.
When you ask “So where is God?” They reply “God is eternal and infinite, he plans, he punishes, he rewards, he decides”.
An anthropomorphic God.

So why we can’t called this eternal and infinite God, “Deus sive Natura”? But no anthropomorphic, no planner, no rewarder,  no retributive, no decision maker, no destinator. Not transcendent but immanent.

….

Finally Blake says to Donovan

“I wrote a paper describing how you can have freedom in an utterly deterministic universe. If you like, I can upload that too.”

May I also read this paper please Blake?

…….

Sorry for my poor English

Sincerely


Oguz

From Istanbul




--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/11/15, Blake McBride blake@... [spinoza] <spinoza@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [spinoza] Questions
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015, 5:58 AM


 









Dear Donovan,
Hi.  We've been at this
(Spinoza) some time now.

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at
2:18 PM, Donovan Rundle donovanrundle@...
[spinoza] <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:















 










On Jun 2, 2015, at 7:34 AM, blake@...
[spinoza] <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:
Hi.
1.  The two
attributes extension/matter and thinking are not
"parallel".  They are one and the same thing
looked at from two different perspectives (2P7).  We, in
modern times, think of thought as patterns in our
brain.
When you say “thought as
patterns” you seem to treat thought as a generalization of
patterns, and indeed you say as much. But Thought is a Real
Entity conceived through attending to the true order of
Nature, and cannot be rendered through a reduction of brain
scans which are useful, but are like number and
measurement-mere aids to the
imagination.
Thought is just as real as
extension, for it is one and the same thing.  It is just as
difficult to describe a shapeless / pattern-less physical
thing as it is to describe an idea without a physical form
(some kind of medium) for they are one and the same thing. 
Neither has primacy.  I can assure you that if you
duplicate a physical brain down to every physical level, you
will have inadvertently also, and simultaneously, duplicated
all of the thoughts within that brain.  The specific
physical things you did to construct that brain could just
as easily been looked at as a sequence of patterns in your
brain, in you hands, etc..
I assure you, if you understand my
explanation, and look through the Ethics, you will find that
it all makes sense.

 
 Spinoza's use of
the idea "attribute of thought" is a
generalization of that
idea.
The attribute Thought is not a
generalization of anything.  It’s a Real
Being.
Yes, psychology, morals, ethics,
learning, emotions are real. 
[99] (1) As regards the order of our
perceptions, and the manner in which they should be
arranged and united, it is necessary that, as soon as is
possible and rational, we should inquire whether there be
any being (and, if so, what being), that is the cause
of all things, so that its essence, represented
in thought, may
be the cause of all our
ideas, and then our mind will to the utmost possible extent
reflect nature. (2) For it will possess, subjectively,
nature's essence, order, and union. (3) Thus we can
see that it is before all things necessary for us to
deduce
all our ideas from physical things -
that is, from real entities, proceeding, as far as may be,
according to the series of causes, from one real entity to
another real entity, never passing to universals and
abstractions, either for the purpose of deducing some real
entity from them, or deducing them from some real entity.
(4) Either of these processes interrupts the true
progress of the
understanding.
Language, although it is largely the
only way we have to relate ideas, is actually a pretty poor
medium.  Spinoza, in many places, uses the same word within
a different context and with a different meaning.  For
example, Spinoza uses the word "thought" in many
places that if taken together, are clearly contradictory. 
There are many who have used that fact to, rather than
understand Spinoza, show where they thought he was
contradicting himself.  The bottom line is that if your
goal is to disprove Spinoza, you can merely compare
different statements and show the contradiction. 
Alternatively, you can work your understanding until you
arrive at an understanding that renders his ideas sound - if
they are.  See 2P36Dem.
So, you have two choices.  You can
look for errors and you will find them.  Or, if it is the
case that there is something important and accurate there,
you may come to an understanding.
My use of the term "generalized
patterns" was done in an effort to provide an
understanding of the attributes using the limited resources
I have - language.  It was not used in the same way
referred to by Spinoza in your above quote.

 

 When Spinoza refers to
the "attribute of thought" think patterns - like
molecular patterns.  In this sense, it is easy to see that
our brain can be completely (100%) described in physical
terms - under the attribute of extension.  At the same
time, that same object, can be understood as a set of
psychological patterns - under the attribute of
thought.
What does one do with Spinoza’s
dictum that extension is indivisible? “Molecular
patterns” as such require the division of
extension/thought. “Our brain” is another instance of
attempting to isolate or divide one aspect of reality from
the rest. I don’t get science when it does this without
acknowledging the repercussions.  These show up in quantum
mechanics. As soon as we lose sight of p99 in TEI, we have
dropped the
ball.
Modes of thought and modes of
extension are equally indivisible.  The best way to think
about them is as waves in an ocean.  The waves are
completely a part of the ocean, and interestingly utterly
not static.  There is actually no thing that is a wave in
the ocean.  It is merely a construct in our mind that we
place a word to so that we communicate this to others.  The
individuality of modes is a convenient construct in our mind
and nothing more.
It
is utterly clear and uncontroversial that there is only one
substance.
Let me give
an example that the idea of an individual mode is just a
construction in your head.  You have a car.  That car you
think of as an individual thing right?  What about the
steering wheel?  Isn't that an individual thing?  It
surely would be thought of that way if you have to replace
it.  This shows how the idea of an individual thing has no
truth in it.  It is merely a convenient construct we use to
communicate and run our lives.
 

2.  There are all sorts of
theory's from all sorts of people.  No telling.  The
only possible exception to Spinoza's theory of radical
determinism is random events that seem to occur at the
sub-atomic level (but magically don't appear at the
macro level).  Random events do not give us free
will.
Trying to place Spinoza’s
philosophy into the mold of post Positivist Philosophy of
Science may be interesting, especially to intellectuals, but
it tells us mostly about the thinking not so much of the
former great metaphysician and philosopher, and more about
those trying to get ahead of tomorrow’s failed theories.
 “The only possible exception” sounds self-important to
me, but perhaps I am simply ignorant of the finality…Are
there other attributes making an appearance that we don’t
understand? How can there possibly be separate things? Do
unknown attributes have a
role? 
As stated by Spinoza, each attribute
is understood through itself alone.  There must be infinite
attributes because placing any smaller number would be
placing a limit on G-d.  Our faculties are such that we
only conceive of the two; thought and
extension.
Spinoza was
far, far ahead of his time.  This is why it has been so
hard for the world to understand him.  Philosophers like
Descartes, Leibniz, Rousseau, and especially Kierkegaard,
although they did make some important contributions or raise
some important questions, are mostly religious apologists. 
Spinoza was one of the few that was truly able to transcend
religion.  As humanity gains understanding, Spinoza makes
more sense.  We sometimes have to imply modern terminology
in order to understand what Spinoza understood so long
ago.
 
Spinoza maintains that we may act
freely under certain conditions. “Action” for Spinoza
describes our behavior/thought when we, in harmony with that
which falls under the purview of our nature alone, behave or
think, without influence by any external cause.  This flies
in the face of the notion of dependent origination,
doesn’t it? So, unlike Spinoza, I am interested in the
meaning of words as well as the nature of things, perhaps
because I am not the bona fide metaphysician I feel Spinoza
to
be.
For Spinoza, on the day he died it
was bound to happen that you should write what you did here,
and that I would reply as I am now.  No thing can be
different than it is.  I wrote a paper describing how you
can have freedom in an utterly deterministic universe.  If
you like, I can upload that too.
 
Spinoza strove to make metaphysics
logical.  If one takes his axioms and definitions as given,
self-evident, then he may not be so far off the mark. And
the effort to bring metaphysics into sensible language is
something some readers say he achieved.  Others say it can
never be done and that talk of metaphysics is poetry at
best.
Again, language is a poor medium,
but all we have.  Most phrases may be interpreted or
understood in many contradictory ways.  The way to
understand Spinoza's Ethics is to form an understanding
of each proposition and then continually alter that
interpretation until it renders the whole of the Ethics as
one complete, uncontradictory idea.  When that happens, you
know you've got the intended
interpretation.
 
Perhaps there will be another rev.
of homo ———— which will speak the language of
metaphysics logically and
sensibly.
Spinoza is difficult, but once
understood, it is clear that the problem was not its
complexity.  The problem was our own
prejudices.
Blake
McBride
 

Blake McBride




























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-------- Original message --------
From: "Blake McBride blake@... [spinoza]" <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/10/2015 6:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [spinoza] Re: Questions

 

-------- Original message --------
From: "stuarts55 stuarts55@... [spinoza]" <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/11/2015 8:48 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [spinoza] Re: Questions

 

I have downloaded it Stuarts
I can send it. Via attachment.

And thank you very much and regards Blake.
I haven't read it yet just i have taken a glance.
But I guess your article will be very nourishing for me

Oguz
Istanbul



--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/11/15, stuarts55 stuarts55@... [spinoza] <spinoza@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [spinoza] Re: Questions
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015, 7:13 PM


 











the title of your article, Blake, certainly seems
to the point. however, when I get to the page I can't
figure out how to get to your article. Oh, woe is
me!


Sent from my Verizon
Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "stuarts55 stuarts55@...
[spinoza]" <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/11/2015 8:48 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [spinoza] Re: Questions
















 








good morning, Blake. I would like to begin with 3
premises of mine: first, although I did not bring up the
question of mysticism, just in case it becomes an issue, I
will use the term in a spinozistic context with the
following definition: 'involving or having the nature of
an individual's direct subjective communion with God or
ultimate reality.' (Webster online). surely, the
intellectual love of God fits that definition. surely, the
whole point of the ethics is to achieve such a condition of
one's consciousness. Is it not?secondly, however we may
describe Spinoza's relationship to Descartes, he
certainly followed Descartes in making sure that the
language that describes extension is absolutely exclusive
relative to the language that describes thought and, of
course, vice versa. and, further, to avoid the consequent
problem of how to account for the interaction between
thought and extension, Spinoza identifies the two, thereby,
letting himself off that rather large hook
. thirdly, the theory of substance/attributes is anything
but straightforward.
to turn to your replies: in the
first place, it should be noted that the current state of
physics has no room for the color red. Bertrand Russell,
accurately I think, noted that the color red or the
experience of same, from the point of view of physics, is
kind of an unaccounted for dangler at the end of a
"physical" causal chain.  I would add here, for
what it may be worth, that whereas I can easily distinguish
between a brain, for example, and my experience of that
brain, I cannot imagine how to distinguish between the color
red and my experience of red.
I am fairly sure that I do not
understand your reply concerning perspectives since I do not
understand why you put the word 'red' in scare
quotes each time you used it. nor do I understand why you
refer to the red ink ON the paper. I was only asking about
the color red OF the paper. (or &nbs
p;about the color OF the ink, for that
matter.)
for now, I
will simply point out that my question concerning
perspectives was not intended to elicit a review of
Spinoza's theory, per se, of attributes.for now, I can
only roughly indicate the nature of my question by referring
you to p7Sch that you referred me to. Spinoza
says,
"for
example, a circle existing in nature and the idea of the
existing circle, which is also in God, are one in the same
thing, which is explained through different
attributes."
that
may be so, but it does seem certain that my idea of that
particular existing circle is not the same as that circle. a
perspective seems to me to imply at least two things: one,
consciousness or awareness of something. two, that awareness
(of) must be understood as the point of view of an
individual. now, I was wondering from exactly what
perspective is one able to view the two perspectives and in
su
ch a way that it is a self validating perspective. I can
certainly come up with an alternative story that will
account for the "facts" as well as Spinoza's
story.
one reference
to your earlier text. you said that when thinking of the
attribute of thought one should think patterns. but, when I
think of the attribute of thought, I think of two
possibilities. The first, when thinking about it objectively
as an attribute of reality, for example, I think of
concepts. when I think of the attribute of thought in terms
of people thinking, I think of awareness and understanding
and perspective. Patterns, of course, are involved in some
way in both respects. and, of course, without the objective
reality of concepts, the conscious thinking of reality by
means of concepts could not get off the
ground.






Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE
smartphone





-------- Original message --------
From: "Blake McBride blake@...
[spinoza]" <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 06/10/2015 6:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: spinoza@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [spinoza] Re: Questions


 






Hi stuarts55,
The phrase "one and the same
thing" cannot be plainer than it is.  Don't try to
read anymore into it.  Don't try to make Spinoza's
ideas mystical.  They're not.
Spinoza's ideas are actually
pretty straight forward.  The biggest problem we have in
understanding them are our own prejudices and
misconceptions.
2P7Sch
spells out the whole thing.  He describes it well. 
Don't try to read anything else into it.
In terms of understanding "from
two different perspectives", I refer you back to my
example about the brain vs. our thoughts.
I wrote a paper a few years ago
providing a detailed explanation of the attributes.  If
someone will tell me how to upload it, I will.
"Red" on a paper is a
physical entity (extension - the red ink on the paper). 
That "Red" also
exists under the attribute of thought in two
ways:
1.  with
respect to G-d.  This is that "Red" seen under
the attribute of thought.  It's patterns and shape on
another pattern (the paper).  The relationship between
these are always and necessarily 100% accurate - because it
is one and the same thing!
2.  an idea with respect to the
viewer or man.  The pattern of that "Red" causes
a sequence of patterns in the pattern that we call ideas in
your head which, under the attribute of extension, we call
your brain.  That pattern is subject to
error.
I wouldn't
refer to Spinoza's ideas as an advancement of the
Cartesian model.  Spinoza didn't advance the Cartesian
model.  He backed up and went in a different
direction.
Hope this
helps!
Blake
McBride


On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 10:54 PM, stuarts55
stuarts55@...
[spinoza] <spinoza@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:















 











Hi blake.
I
am very interested to understand what is being referred to
by the phrase. 'the same thing.' I would also like
to understand what is meant by the phrase, 'from two
different perspectives.' Further, I am not clear as to
who or what is aware of and, therefore able to talk about
these two perspectives. Another thing I wonder (and wonder
is the
poin









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