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Re: slow reading -- prop 28 and following note

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  • Ethel Jean Saltz
    ... of ... getting ... and ... determined to ... is ... original). ... http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes When I read this I immediately think of the Periodic
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 24, 2001
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      --- In spinoza-ethics@y..., holmes@c... wrote:
      > Dear All,
      >
      > I recommence the slow reading with the difficult prop. 28. I want
      > to comment on the side that I am very interested in the discussion
      of
      > the second and third kinds of knowledge, but I intend to avoid
      getting
      > into it until we get to the appropriate part of the Ethics.
      >
      > --Randall Holmes
      >
      > Thus Spinoza:
      >
      > Proposition 28: An individual thing, or a thing which is finite
      and
      > which has a determinate existence, cannot exist nor be
      determined to
      > action unless it be determined to action by another cause which
      is
      > also finite and which has a determinate existence ... and so ad
      > infinitum. (I omit a further repetition for emphasis in the
      original).
      >
      http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes

      When I read this I immediately think of the Periodic Table of
      Elements and the Forces of Physics. Which came first? And isn't it
      infinite because of this?
    • HSigerson@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/10/2001 3:36:18 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I always took Spinoza to be in line with Aristotle on this point, i.e., the eternality of
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 10, 2001
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        In a message dated 8/10/2001 3:36:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
        nietgal@... writes:


        > --- In spinoza-ethics@y..., holmes@c... wrote:
        > > Dear All,
        > >
        > > I recommence the slow reading with the difficult prop. 28. I want
        > > to comment on the side that I am very interested in the discussion
        > of
        > > the second and third kinds of knowledge, but I intend to avoid
        > getting
        > > into it until we get to the appropriate part of the Ethics.
        > >
        > > --Randall Holmes
        > >
        > > Thus Spinoza:
        > >
        > > Proposition 28: An individual thing, or a thing which is finite
        > and
        > > which has a determinate existence, cannot exist nor be
        > determined to
        > > action unless it be determined to action by another cause which
        > is
        > > also finite and which has a determinate existence ... and so ad
        > > infinitum. (I omit a further repetition for emphasis in the
        > original).
        > >
        > http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes
        >
        > When I read this I immediately think of the Periodic Table of
        > Elements and the Forces of Physics. Which came first? And isn't it
        > infinite because of this?
        >

        I always took Spinoza to be in line with Aristotle on this point, i.e., the
        eternality of the world.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lancelot R. Fletcher
        ... [....] ... Ethel, Sorry to be so late in responding. I don t understand what it is about the statement of IP28 that makes you think of the Periodic Table
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 28, 2001
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Ethel Jean Saltz [mailto:nietgal@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 3:46 PM
          > To: spinoza-ethics@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [spinoza-ethics] Re: slow reading -- prop 28 and following note

          [....]
          > > Thus Spinoza:
          > >
          > > Proposition 28: An individual thing, or a thing which is finite
          > and
          > > which has a determinate existence, cannot exist nor be
          > determined to
          > > action unless it be determined to action by another cause which
          > is
          > > also finite and which has a determinate existence ... and so ad
          > > infinitum. (I omit a further repetition for emphasis in the
          > original).
          > >
          > http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes
          >
          > When I read this I immediately think of the Periodic Table of
          > Elements and the Forces of Physics. Which came first? And isn't it
          > infinite because of this?

          Ethel,

          Sorry to be so late in responding. I don't understand what it is about the
          statement of IP28 that makes you think of the Periodic Table and the Forces
          of Physics. Can you explain the connection that you see?

          Lance Fletcher
          writing from Tbilisi
        • Lancelot R. Fletcher
          ... [....] ... Mr. Sigerson, I just responded to Ethel s previous message (to which yours above is a reply) asking how the question is connected to IP28 in the
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 29, 2001
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: HSigerson@... [mailto:HSigerson@...]
            > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 5:54 AM
            > To: spinoza-ethics@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [spinoza-ethics] Re: slow reading -- prop 28 and following
            > note

            [....]
            > > > Thus Spinoza:
            > > >
            > > > Proposition 28: An individual thing, or a thing which is finite
            > > and
            > > > which has a determinate existence, cannot exist nor be
            > > determined to
            > > > action unless it be determined to action by another cause which
            > > is
            > > > also finite and which has a determinate existence ... and so ad
            > > > infinitum. (I omit a further repetition for emphasis in the
            > > original).
            > > >
            > > http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes
            > >
            > > When I read this I immediately think of the Periodic Table of
            > > Elements and the Forces of Physics. Which came first? And isn't it
            > > infinite because of this?
            > >
            >
            > I always took Spinoza to be in line with Aristotle on this point,
            > i.e., the
            > eternality of the world.

            Mr. Sigerson,

            I just responded to Ethel's previous message (to which yours above is a
            reply) asking how the question is connected to IP28 in the Ethics. I ask
            much the same question of you. I don't understand what you mean by "this
            point". The reference to "the eternality of the world" occurs for me as a
            non sequitur in connection with IP28, so I feel that I must not be following
            your reasoning.

            Lance Fletcher
            writing from Tbilisi
          • Lancelot R. Fletcher
            As some of you may be aware, I long ago created an index of implication for Spinoza s Ethics, to serve as a tool for studying the logical structure of the
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 31, 2001
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              As some of you may be aware, I long ago created an "index of implication"
              for Spinoza's Ethics, to serve as a tool for studying the logical structure
              of the Ethics. A copy of it can be found at:
              http://freelance-academy.org/spinoza/ethindex.txt.

              When I begin to consider the meaning of a proposition in the Ethics, I find
              it useful to consult this index, which shows both the dependency of the
              proposition (those propositions cited in the proof) and the implication of
              that proposition (all the subsequent passages which cite this particular
              proposition. The table of implication is of particular interest, I think,
              because by studying how Spinoza used a particular term we can often increase
              our understanding of what he actually meant by that term -- which is
              sometimes different from the conventional understanding of the term.

              I have quoted the index node for IP28 below. If you are reading it with a
              proportionally spaced font it may look a bit odd, but the columns should
              line up correctly if you use a monospaced font such as Courier.

              One of the first things you will notice if you compare this node with others
              in the index is that it is an exceptionally rich and balanced nexus. By
              "rich" I mean that IP28 cites, and is cited in, a large number of other
              terms. By "balanced" I mean that the number of terms which the proof of
              IP28 cites is equal to the number in which it is cited. What this fact might
              signify is not obvious, but it might be taken to suggest that this
              particular proposition is one of crucial importance in the development of
              the Ethics.

              A second observation is that IP28 is cited in four out of the five parts of
              the Ethics -- only a half-dozen or fewer of the propositions in the Ethics
              are cited so widely in the Ethics (none are cited in all five parts). This
              suggests that IP28 may be one of the important logical "sinews" binding the
              structure of the Ethics into a whole.

              Lance Fletcher
              writing from Tbilisi

              ------------------------- --------------------- ----------------------
              ----

              |4. ID3 |===>|69. IP28 |===>|76. IP32
              |

              | | --------------------- |
              |

              |6. ID5 | |116. IIP9
              |

              | | |
              |

              |11. IA1 | |135. IIP13L3
              |

              | | |
              |

              |59. IP21 | |180. IIP30
              |

              | | |
              |

              |60. IP22 | |181. IIP31
              |

              | | |
              |

              |63. IP24C | |210. IIP48
              |

              | | |
              |

              |66. IP25C | |432. IVP29
              |

              | | |
              |

              |67. IP26 | |565. VP6
              |

              ------------------------- ----------------------
              ----
            • Joseph B. Yesselman
              Dear Lancelot,
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 31, 2001
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                Dear Lancelot,

                <
                < I long ago created an "index of implication" for Spinoza's Ethics,
                < to serve as a tool for studying the logical structure of the Ethics.
                <

                I have linked (in small print) your "index of implication (logical index)"
                to my "Ethics."

                Thank you for your kind permission.

                Regards,

                Joseph

                ==========================================================

                "Lancelot R. Fletcher" wrote:

                > As some of you may be aware, I long ago created an "index of implication"
                > for Spinoza's Ethics, to serve as a tool for studying the logical structure
                > of the Ethics. A copy of it can be found at:
                > http://freelance-academy.org/spinoza/ethindex.txt.
                >
                > When I begin to consider the meaning of a proposition in the Ethics, I find
                > it useful to consult this index, which shows both the dependency of the
                > proposition (those propositions cited in the proof) and the implication of
                > that proposition (all the subsequent passages which cite this particular
                > proposition. The table of implication is of particular interest, I think,
                > because by studying how Spinoza used a particular term we can often increase
                > our understanding of what he actually meant by that term -- which is
                > sometimes different from the conventional understanding of the term.
                >
                > I have quoted the index node for IP28 below. If you are reading it with a
                > proportionally spaced font it may look a bit odd, but the columns should
                > line up correctly if you use a monospaced font such as Courier.
                >
                > One of the first things you will notice if you compare this node with others
                > in the index is that it is an exceptionally rich and balanced nexus. By
                > "rich" I mean that IP28 cites, and is cited in, a large number of other
                > terms. By "balanced" I mean that the number of terms which the proof of
                > IP28 cites is equal to the number in which it is cited. What this fact might
                > signify is not obvious, but it might be taken to suggest that this
                > particular proposition is one of crucial importance in the development of
                > the Ethics.
                >
                > A second observation is that IP28 is cited in four out of the five parts of
                > the Ethics -- only a half-dozen or fewer of the propositions in the Ethics
                > are cited so widely in the Ethics (none are cited in all five parts). This
                > suggests that IP28 may be one of the important logical "sinews" binding the
                > structure of the Ethics into a whole.
                >
                > Lance Fletcher
                > writing from Tbilisi
                >
                > ------------------------- --------------------- ----------------------
                > ----
                >
                > |4. ID3 |===>|69. IP28 |===>|76. IP32
                > |
                >
                > | | --------------------- |
                > |
                >
                > |6. ID5 | |116. IIP9
                > |
                >
                > | | |
                > |
                >
                > |11. IA1 | |135. IIP13L3
                > |
                >
                > | | |
                > |
                >
                > |59. IP21 | |180. IIP30
                > |
                >
                > | | |
                > |
                >
                > |60. IP22 | |181. IIP31
                > |
                >
                > | | |
                > |
                >
                > |63. IP24C | |210. IIP48
                > |
                >
                > | | |
                > |
                >
                > |66. IP25C | |432. IVP29
                > |
                >
                > | | |
                > |
                >
                > |67. IP26 | |565. VP6
                > |
                >
                > ------------------------- ----------------------
                > ----
                >


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