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Re: [Speed cubing group] Re: 2003 vs. 1982 WC level of competition

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  • Rune Wesström
    Yes, there were millions and millions of cubists in the early 80´s, but only 19 of them got to the final. And that sometimes under dubious selections. Most of
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 2 11:01 AM
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      Yes, there were millions and millions of cubists in the early 80´s, but only 19 of them got to the final. And that sometimes under dubious selections. Most of the participants had cubed only one or two years. Had they waited only one year with the WC (and the participants with there own cubes!), the results would have been far better.

      R


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: George
      To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 6:46 PM
      Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: 2003 vs. 1982 WC level of competition


      I agree that I think it is certainly "easier" to get fast now than it
      was in the early 80's, thanks to the internet and computer generated
      algorithms. But keep in mind that the cube was much, much more
      popular then and there were a lot more competitions going on. So
      while there was less "information", there were a lot more motivated
      people working on the cube. A number of this year's finalists were
      people that were for the most part doing the same methods they were
      using 20 years ago. From comments I've heard attributed to Jessica
      and David Allen, they were both "faster" 20 years ago, but they've
      made slight improvements to their methods over time so net times are
      still fairly close. So if Jessica is about as fast as she was in '82
      (or maybe a little slower) and she was middle of the pack in '82 and
      she was 2nd this year, what happened? Was it luck, a different
      format, using your own cube, or slower competition?

      - George Strain

      --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Johanson"
      <ejohanson@a...> wrote:
      > it's too hard to compare them. i wasn't there in '82, but cubing
      > must be much different now than back then. there was no internet
      > in '82 and there weren't computers that had found all the optimal
      > algs. nowadays if you want to be fast, all you're really required
      > to do is log on to the net and dial-a-method and its just a matter
      > of practice. of course cubing is more than that to many people,
      but
      > you can be fast by doing only that. in '82, things must gave been
      > much different.
      >
      >
      > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "George"
      > <gastrainga2001@y...> wrote:
      > > I'm curious how people would compare the level of competitors
      that
      > > existed in 1982 vs. the recent competition. I realize that some
      > of
      > > the same people competed, and some of the people, including 3 of
      > the
      > > 8 finalists, were cubing during the initial cube craze. Of
      course
      > we
      > > can't really compare official times since the intial competition
      > had
      > > stiff cubes and a different format. I'd like to hear from
      people,
      > > especially people who were around for the first WC, if they think
      > the
      > > group of cubers at this years competition were faster than in
      1982
      > or
      > > not.
      > >
      > > - George Strain


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    • Hana M. Bizek
      Also, in the 80 there was just the Rubik s cube, what is now called the 3x3x3. Pocket cube, Revenge and the Professor s cube were unavsailable then. So were
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 2 3:10 PM
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        Also, in the 80 there was just the Rubik's cube, what is now called
        the 3x3x3. Pocket cube, Revenge and the Professor's cube were
        unavsailable then. So were the other puzzles, Magnaminx, Pyraminx,
        etc. In the 2003 WC prizes were won in those puzzles. I introduced
        3d cube art. In the 80s I just started to solve the design problem.
        At that time I had no idea that I will be toting 345 cube to
        Toronto. :-))
        Hana a kosatky

        --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, Rune Wesström
        <rune.wesstrom@h...> wrote:
        > Yes, there were millions and millions of cubists in the early
        80´s, but only 19 of them got to the final. And that sometimes under
        dubious selections. Most of the participants had cubed only one or
        two years. Had they waited only one year with the WC (and the
        participants with there own cubes!), the results would have been far
        better.
        >
        > R
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: George
        > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 6:46 PM
        > Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: 2003 vs. 1982 WC level of
        competition
        >
        >
        > I agree that I think it is certainly "easier" to get fast now
        than it
        > was in the early 80's, thanks to the internet and computer
        generated
        > algorithms. But keep in mind that the cube was much, much more
        > popular then and there were a lot more competitions going on.
        So
        > while there was less "information", there were a lot more
        motivated
        > people working on the cube. A number of this year's finalists
        were
        > people that were for the most part doing the same methods they
        were
        > using 20 years ago. From comments I've heard attributed to
        Jessica
        > and David Allen, they were both "faster" 20 years ago, but
        they've
        > made slight improvements to their methods over time so net times
        are
        > still fairly close. So if Jessica is about as fast as she was
        in '82
        > (or maybe a little slower) and she was middle of the pack in '82
        and
        > she was 2nd this year, what happened? Was it luck, a different
        > format, using your own cube, or slower competition?
        >
        > - George Strain
        >
        > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Johanson"
        > <ejohanson@a...> wrote:
        > > it's too hard to compare them. i wasn't there in '82, but
        cubing
        > > must be much different now than back then. there was no
        internet
        > > in '82 and there weren't computers that had found all the
        optimal
        > > algs. nowadays if you want to be fast, all you're really
        required
        > > to do is log on to the net and dial-a-method and its just a
        matter
        > > of practice. of course cubing is more than that to many
        people,
        > but
        > > you can be fast by doing only that. in '82, things must gave
        been
        > > much different.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "George"
        > > <gastrainga2001@y...> wrote:
        > > > I'm curious how people would compare the level of
        competitors
        > that
        > > > existed in 1982 vs. the recent competition. I realize that
        some
        > > of
        > > > the same people competed, and some of the people, including
        3 of
        > > the
        > > > 8 finalists, were cubing during the initial cube craze. Of
        > course
        > > we
        > > > can't really compare official times since the intial
        competition
        > > had
        > > > stiff cubes and a different format. I'd like to hear from
        > people,
        > > > especially people who were around for the first WC, if they
        think
        > > the
        > > > group of cubers at this years competition were faster than
        in
        > 1982
        > > or
        > > > not.
        > > >
        > > > - George Strain
        >
        >
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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jessica Fridrich
        I think that cubers are much faster today than in June of 1982. It is because of all the sharing done via the Internet and the computer- generated algorithms.
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 2 6:30 PM
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          I think that cubers are much faster today than in June of 1982. It
          is because of all the sharing done via the Internet and the computer-
          generated algorithms. Back in 1982 there was no communication among
          the constestants prior to the championship. As a result, there was
          much bigger diversity in methods and cubing styles.

          Today, people share all kinds of details, improve existing systems,
          help each other to get faster. That was not the case in 1982. Also,
          it is a lot smaller psychological barrier to improve from average 19
          to 17 IF you know that there are 20 other people who did it before
          you. You pretty much know that if you put in sufficient number of
          energy and concentration, you are likely to get there. To get to
          15.4, of course, is another thing - that takes an immense talent and
          a HUGE amount of sweat.

          In 2003 WC there was much more actual cubing than in 1982. The
          conditions were much more fair than in 1982 - in 2003 we could have
          our own cubes and anybody could come and compete. In 1982, the stage
          was far more intimidating than in 2003. It was bigger, you were the
          only one there and the audience was bigger. Also, because the cube
          was at its peak popularity, stakes were kind of higher. So, if you
          were nervous in 2003, you can imagine the pressure in 1982 ... :)

          More below ...

          > A number of this year's finalists were
          > people that were for the most part doing the same methods they were
          > >using 20 years ago. From comments I've heard attributed to
          Jessica
          > >and David Allen, they were both "faster" 20 years ago, but they've
          > >made slight improvements to their methods over time so net times
          are
          > >still fairly close. So if Jessica is about as fast as she was
          in '82
          > >(or maybe a little slower) and she was middle of the pack in '82
          and
          > >she was 2nd this year, what happened? Was it luck, a different
          > >format, using your own cube, or slower competition?

          Well, first of all, I am now MUCH faster than I was in 1982. In 1982
          I was averaging about 23 seconds. In June 1982, I have owned the
          cube for a mere 10 months! I was at my peak in 1983 and I have not
          really changed my method since then. So, the different placement
          then and this year does not mean anything ;)

          It would be very interesting to know how fast the contestants were
          (average) in 1982. Does anyone have this info? I think somebody was
          taking statistics at the championship regarding the methods and our
          performance. I remember that the corners-first method was more
          frequent among contestants in 1982 than the by-layer approach.

          Jessica
        • Rune Wesström
          As to ave. times 1982. Borsos (You) 34.03 Brinkman (BDR) 32.57 Chacon (Per) 31.51 Chilvers (GB) 28.00 Fridrich (Cze)
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 3 1:26 AM
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            As to ave. times 1982.

            Borsos (You) 34.03
            Brinkman (BDR) 32.57
            Chacon (Per) 31.51
            Chilvers (GB) 28.00
            Fridrich (Cze) 31.27
            Galrinho (Por) 42.17
            Jean-Charles (Fra) 28.04
            Labas (Hun) 26.76
            van Laethem (Bel) 32.54
            Petrus (Swe) 31.03
            Schultz (Hol) 27.33
            Romeo (Ita) 34.70
            Sandqvist (Fin) 31.37
            Sebenski (Pol) 40.92
            Tenev (Bul) 48.84
            Thai (USA) 26.03
            Trajber (Aus) 54.69
            Trinh (Can) 33.39
            Ueno (Jap) 26.79

            Interesting: After the competition David Singmaster asked the participants about the quality of the cubes. All answered that they were perfect!


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jessica Fridrich
            To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 3:30 AM
            Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: 2003 vs. 1982 WC level of competition


            I think that cubers are much faster today than in June of 1982. It
            is because of all the sharing done via the Internet and the computer-
            generated algorithms. Back in 1982 there was no communication among
            the constestants prior to the championship. As a result, there was
            much bigger diversity in methods and cubing styles.

            Today, people share all kinds of details, improve existing systems,
            help each other to get faster. That was not the case in 1982. Also,
            it is a lot smaller psychological barrier to improve from average 19
            to 17 IF you know that there are 20 other people who did it before
            you. You pretty much know that if you put in sufficient number of
            energy and concentration, you are likely to get there. To get to
            15.4, of course, is another thing - that takes an immense talent and
            a HUGE amount of sweat.

            In 2003 WC there was much more actual cubing than in 1982. The
            conditions were much more fair than in 1982 - in 2003 we could have
            our own cubes and anybody could come and compete. In 1982, the stage
            was far more intimidating than in 2003. It was bigger, you were the
            only one there and the audience was bigger. Also, because the cube
            was at its peak popularity, stakes were kind of higher. So, if you
            were nervous in 2003, you can imagine the pressure in 1982 ... :)

            More below ...

            > A number of this year's finalists were
            > people that were for the most part doing the same methods they were
            > >using 20 years ago. From comments I've heard attributed to
            Jessica
            > >and David Allen, they were both "faster" 20 years ago, but they've
            > >made slight improvements to their methods over time so net times
            are
            > >still fairly close. So if Jessica is about as fast as she was
            in '82
            > >(or maybe a little slower) and she was middle of the pack in '82
            and
            > >she was 2nd this year, what happened? Was it luck, a different
            > >format, using your own cube, or slower competition?

            Well, first of all, I am now MUCH faster than I was in 1982. In 1982
            I was averaging about 23 seconds. In June 1982, I have owned the
            cube for a mere 10 months! I was at my peak in 1983 and I have not
            really changed my method since then. So, the different placement
            then and this year does not mean anything ;)

            It would be very interesting to know how fast the contestants were
            (average) in 1982. Does anyone have this info? I think somebody was
            taking statistics at the championship regarding the methods and our
            performance. I remember that the corners-first method was more
            frequent among contestants in 1982 than the by-layer approach.

            Jessica




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          • Jessica Fridrich
            Oh, I was not asking about the averages at the competition. Those do not tell much not only because of the stiffer cubes but mostly due to the color scheme.
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 3 5:20 AM
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              Oh, I was not asking about the averages at the competition. Those do
              not tell much not only because of the stiffer cubes but mostly due
              to the color scheme. The only information I have is from the 1982 WC
              brochure (of course, the times from national champs could be ooold
              for some competitors depending on when the champs took place. But
              even this info tells you about the level of the 1982 champs compared
              with 2003):

              Trajber (Austria): Best time 29
              Luc van Laethem (Bel): Best 17, won the Belgium champs with 34
              Svilen Tenev (Bulgaria): Best 40
              Duc Trinh (Can): Won the Canadian champs with 26
              Fridrich (Cze): Won Czech champ with 23.55.
              Jari Sandquist (Fin): Best 19
              Jerome Jean Charles (France): Won French champ with 25.60
              Julian Chilvers (Great Britain): Won GB champs with 25.79
              Guus Razoux Schultz (Hol): Best 18
              Zoltan Labas (Hun): ?
              Giuseppe Romeo (Italy): Won Italian champs with 26
              Ken'ichi Ueno (Jap): Best 22, won Japanese champs with 42.30
              Eduardo Valdivia Chacon (Peru): Best official time 26.80
              Piotr Serbenski (Poland): Best 28.50
              Lars Petrus (Swe): Recorded 24 in Swedish champs
              Minh Thai (USA): On That's Incredible 26.06
              Roland Brinkman (Ger): Won German champs with 19
              Jozsef Borsos (Yu): Winning times in Yugoslavian champs: 43, 38, 28
              Portugal master: no info provided

              Jessica

              > As to ave. times 1982.
              >
              > Borsos (You) 34.03
              > Brinkman (BDR) 32.57
              > Chacon (Per) 31.51
              > Chilvers (GB) 28.00
              > Fridrich (Cze) 31.27
              > Galrinho (Por) 42.17
              > Jean-Charles (Fra) 28.04
              > Labas (Hun) 26.76
              > van Laethem (Bel) 32.54
              > Petrus (Swe) 31.03
              > Schultz (Hol) 27.33
              > Romeo (Ita) 34.70
              > Sandqvist (Fin) 31.37
              > Sebenski (Pol) 40.92
              > Tenev (Bul) 48.84
              > Thai (USA) 26.03
              > Trajber (Aus) 54.69
              > Trinh (Can) 33.39
              > Ueno (Jap) 26.79
              >
              > Interesting: After the competition David Singmaster asked the
              participants about the quality of the cubes. All answered that they
              were perfect!
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Jessica Fridrich
              > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 3:30 AM
              > Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: 2003 vs. 1982 WC level of
              competition
              >
              >
              > I think that cubers are much faster today than in June of 1982.
              It
              > is because of all the sharing done via the Internet and the
              computer-
              > generated algorithms. Back in 1982 there was no communication
              among
              > the constestants prior to the championship. As a result, there
              was
              > much bigger diversity in methods and cubing styles.
              >
              > Today, people share all kinds of details, improve existing
              systems,
              > help each other to get faster. That was not the case in 1982.
              Also,
              > it is a lot smaller psychological barrier to improve from
              average 19
              > to 17 IF you know that there are 20 other people who did it
              before
              > you. You pretty much know that if you put in sufficient number
              of
              > energy and concentration, you are likely to get there. To get to
              > 15.4, of course, is another thing - that takes an immense talent
              and
              > a HUGE amount of sweat.
              >
              > In 2003 WC there was much more actual cubing than in 1982. The
              > conditions were much more fair than in 1982 - in 2003 we could
              have
              > our own cubes and anybody could come and compete. In 1982, the
              stage
              > was far more intimidating than in 2003. It was bigger, you were
              the
              > only one there and the audience was bigger. Also, because the
              cube
              > was at its peak popularity, stakes were kind of higher. So, if
              you
              > were nervous in 2003, you can imagine the pressure in 1982 ... :)
              >
              > More below ...
              >
              > > A number of this year's finalists were
              > > people that were for the most part doing the same methods they
              were
              > > >using 20 years ago. From comments I've heard attributed to
              > Jessica
              > > >and David Allen, they were both "faster" 20 years ago, but
              they've
              > > >made slight improvements to their methods over time so net
              times
              > are
              > > >still fairly close. So if Jessica is about as fast as she
              was
              > in '82
              > > >(or maybe a little slower) and she was middle of the pack
              in '82
              > and
              > > >she was 2nd this year, what happened? Was it luck, a
              different
              > > >format, using your own cube, or slower competition?
              >
              > Well, first of all, I am now MUCH faster than I was in 1982. In
              1982
              > I was averaging about 23 seconds. In June 1982, I have owned the
              > cube for a mere 10 months! I was at my peak in 1983 and I have
              not
              > really changed my method since then. So, the different placement
              > then and this year does not mean anything ;)
              >
              > It would be very interesting to know how fast the contestants
              were
              > (average) in 1982. Does anyone have this info? I think somebody
              was
              > taking statistics at the championship regarding the methods and
              our
              > performance. I remember that the corners-first method was more
              > frequent among contestants in 1982 than the by-layer approach.
              >
              > Jessica
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              >
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              Service.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lars Petrus
              ... Singmaster did that, and his old Cubic Circulars are online. The 1982 WC is described on pages 4-7 of this
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 3 11:42 AM
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                At 1:30 +0000 9/3/03, Jessica Fridrich wrote:
                >
                >I think somebody was
                >taking statistics at the championship regarding the methods and our
                >performance. I remember that the corners-first method was more
                >frequent among contestants in 1982 than the by-layer approach.

                Singmaster did that, and his old Cubic Circulars are online. The 1982
                WC is described on pages 4-7 of this
                http://www.geocities.com/jaapsch/puzzles/cubic3.htm, with the method
                descriptions at the end. He got mine right, but I'm not sure about
                the rest.

                He also says that the contestants described the cubes as 'pretty
                good', but that may have been more polite than factual, perhaps on
                the side of the contestants as well as Singmaster.

                >Lars Petrus (Swe): Recorded 24 in Swedish champs

                Yes, it did say that, didn't it? It's not true at all, I won it in
                40.43 seconds. I may have mentioned that I did 24 seconds on average
                to someone, and they passed that on. Or someone just made it up.

                --
                "Reality is what refuses to go away when you stop believing in it"
                --- Philip K Dick

                Lars Petrus, San Francisco - lars@... http://lar5.com
              • _jaap
                ... Let me just correct that link for you (the comma messed it up): http://www.geocities.com/jaapsch/puzzles/cubic3.htm#p4 Jaap
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 3 11:55 AM
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                  --- Lars Petrus wrote:
                  > Singmaster did that, and his old Cubic Circulars are online.
                  > The 1982 WC is described on pages 4-7 of this
                  > http://www.geocities.com/jaapsch/puzzles/cubic3.htm, with the
                  > method descriptions at the end.

                  Let me just correct that link for you (the comma messed it up):
                  http://www.geocities.com/jaapsch/puzzles/cubic3.htm#p4

                  Jaap
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