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Re: My Videos from German Open 2007

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  • smgfreak_dk
    Looks like a +2 to me. ... and ... that the ... results in ... happened?
    Message 1 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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      Looks like a +2 to me.

      --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Ron van Bruchem"
      <ron@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Anthony,
      >
      > >the video clearly shows that the solved cube should have received a +2
      > >penalty
      > Are you sure about that? We checked it (as you can see on the video)
      and
      > both judge and me thought it was exactly on the border.
      >
      > Have fun,
      >
      > Ron
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Anthony Hsu" <erwaman@...>
      > To: <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:27 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
      >
      >
      > > Nice videos!
      > >
      > > In Ron van Bruchem's 57.31 4x4x4 solve, the video clearly shows
      that the
      > > solved cube should have received a +2 penalty. However, the
      results in
      > > the WCA Database show that his time was accepted as 57.31. What
      happened?
      > >
      > > -Anthony
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Kai Jiptner
      > > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
      > > Subject: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
      > >
      > >
      > > As promised here are the Videos I recoded this weekend.
      > >
      > > http://iu806.kilu.de/kai/
      > >
      > > Thanks to all of you, it was such a great experience for me.
      > >
      > > Kai
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
    • megafrikkie
      I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned so it is good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on the inner side of that.
      Message 2 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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        I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned so it is
        good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on the inner
        side of that. http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate

        --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, smgfreak_dk
        <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Looks like a +2 to me.
        >
        > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Ron van Bruchem"
        > <ron@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Anthony,
        > >
        > > >the video clearly shows that the solved cube should have received
        a +2
        > > >penalty
        > > Are you sure about that? We checked it (as you can see on the video)
        > and
        > > both judge and me thought it was exactly on the border.
        > >
        > > Have fun,
        > >
        > > Ron
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Anthony Hsu" <erwaman@>
        > > To: <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:27 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
        > >
        > >
        > > > Nice videos!
        > > >
        > > > In Ron van Bruchem's 57.31 4x4x4 solve, the video clearly shows
        > that the
        > > > solved cube should have received a +2 penalty. However, the
        > results in
        > > > the WCA Database show that his time was accepted as 57.31. What
        > happened?
        > > >
        > > > -Anthony
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: Kai Jiptner
        > > > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
        > > > Subject: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > As promised here are the Videos I recoded this weekend.
        > > >
        > > > http://iu806.kilu.de/kai/
        > > >
        > > > Thanks to all of you, it was such a great experience for me.
        > > >
        > > > Kai
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • sgowal
        Even though the top layer is less than 45° away from being solved, it seems that we are in this situation:
        Message 3 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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          Even though the top layer is less than 45° away from being solved, it
          seems that we are in this situation:
          http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/images/notsolved4.jpg
          Thus a +2 penalty.

          Maybe the angle of the camera view is not good enough for us to
          correctly estimate the situation as well. Otherwise, can somebody
          please explain to me how penalty applies to the 4x4?

          Also, I have watched Edouard's 12.73 seconds solve and the inspection
          time seems to be over 15 seconds + 1 second. I don't know if that
          would have changed anything (and I personally don't mind) but since
          we're pointing at possible judges' errors (Sorry for that). Maybe the
          new inspection procedure for 2008 will be better and easier (as
          discussed here http://tinyurl.com/2oz9kj ).

          Sven

          --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "megafrikkie"
          <megafrikkie@...> wrote:
          >
          > I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned so it is
          > good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on the inner
          > side of that.
          http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate
        • smgfreak_dk
          I think YOU need to look at the colors. ... http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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            I think YOU need to look at the colors.

            --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "megafrikkie"
            <megafrikkie@...> wrote:
            >
            > I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned so it is
            > good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on the inner
            > side of that.
            http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate
            >
            > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, smgfreak_dk
            > <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Looks like a +2 to me.
            > >
            > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Ron van Bruchem"
            > > <ron@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Anthony,
            > > >
            > > > >the video clearly shows that the solved cube should have received
            > a +2
            > > > >penalty
            > > > Are you sure about that? We checked it (as you can see on the video)
            > > and
            > > > both judge and me thought it was exactly on the border.
            > > >
            > > > Have fun,
            > > >
            > > > Ron
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "Anthony Hsu" <erwaman@>
            > > > To: <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:27 AM
            > > > Subject: Re: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Nice videos!
            > > > >
            > > > > In Ron van Bruchem's 57.31 4x4x4 solve, the video clearly shows
            > > that the
            > > > > solved cube should have received a +2 penalty. However, the
            > > results in
            > > > > the WCA Database show that his time was accepted as 57.31. What
            > > happened?
            > > > >
            > > > > -Anthony
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > From: Kai Jiptner
            > > > > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
            > > > > Subject: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > As promised here are the Videos I recoded this weekend.
            > > > >
            > > > > http://iu806.kilu.de/kai/
            > > > >
            > > > > Thanks to all of you, it was such a great experience for me.
            > > > >
            > > > > Kai
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Gilles van den Peereboom
            The rule for 4x4 is the same as for 5x5 and 3x3 : look at the lines. If the corner is too far away so that the line passes the other (clear isn t it ?), it is
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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              The rule for 4x4 is the same as for 5x5 and 3x3 : look at the lines.
              If the corner is too far away so that the line passes the other (clear isn't
              it ?), it is a +2. :D

              Gilles


              2007/5/4, smgfreak_dk <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>:
              >
              > I think YOU need to look at the colors.
              >
              > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "megafrikkie"
              > <megafrikkie@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned so it is
              > > good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on the inner
              > > side of that.
              > http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate
              > >
              > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > smgfreak_dk
              > > <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Looks like a +2 to me.
              > > >
              > > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "Ron van Bruchem"
              > > > <ron@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Anthony,
              > > > >
              > > > > >the video clearly shows that the solved cube should have received
              > > a +2
              > > > > >penalty
              > > > > Are you sure about that? We checked it (as you can see on the video)
              > > > and
              > > > > both judge and me thought it was exactly on the border.
              > > > >
              > > > > Have fun,
              > > > >
              > > > > Ron
              > > > >
              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > From: "Anthony Hsu" <erwaman@>
              > > > > To: <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>
              > >
              > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:27 AM
              > > > > Subject: Re: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > > Nice videos!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > In Ron van Bruchem's 57.31 4x4x4 solve, the video clearly shows
              > > > that the
              > > > > > solved cube should have received a +2 penalty. However, the
              > > > results in
              > > > > > the WCA Database show that his time was accepted as 57.31. What
              > > > happened?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > -Anthony
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > > From: Kai Jiptner
              > > > > > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
              > > > > > Subject: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > As promised here are the Videos I recoded this weekend.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > http://iu806.kilu.de/kai/
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks to all of you, it was such a great experience for me.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Kai
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lars Vandenbergh
              I think this is quite interesting. You can see Ron and Rama looking from the side of the cube, but we (or the camera) are looking at it from the back. I m
              Message 6 of 13 , May 4, 2007
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                I think this is quite interesting. You can see Ron and Rama looking from the side of the
                cube, but we (or the camera) are looking at it from the back. I'm pretty sure Ron would
                have called a +2 on himself if it was over the edge. But if I watch the video it looks almost
                dead certain it was misaligned too far, although it's hard to tell because we don't see the
                borders.

                Since the pieces of the Rubik's 4x4x4 are a bit loose compared to other puzzles, it could
                be possible that the corner is too far one side but not on another side. On my 4x4x4 I was
                able to set up a position like this.

                Should the rules be adjusted for this case?

                Kind regards,
                Lars

                --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Gilles van den Peereboom"
                <gillesvdp@...> wrote:
                >
                > The rule for 4x4 is the same as for 5x5 and 3x3 : look at the lines.
                > If the corner is too far away so that the line passes the other (clear isn't
                > it ?), it is a +2. :D
                >
                > Gilles
                >
                >
                > 2007/5/4, smgfreak_dk <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>:
                > >
                > > I think YOU need to look at the colors.
                > >
                > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > "megafrikkie"
                > > <megafrikkie@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned so it is
                > > > good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on the inner
                > > > side of that.
                > > http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate
                > > >
                > > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > smgfreak_dk
                > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Looks like a +2 to me.
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > "Ron van Bruchem"
                > > > > <ron@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hi Anthony,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >the video clearly shows that the solved cube should have received
                > > > a +2
                > > > > > >penalty
                > > > > > Are you sure about that? We checked it (as you can see on the video)
                > > > > and
                > > > > > both judge and me thought it was exactly on the border.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Have fun,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Ron
                > > > > >
                > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > > From: "Anthony Hsu" <erwaman@>
                > > > > > To: <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                40yahoogroups.com>
                > > >
                > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:27 AM
                > > > > > Subject: Re: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > > Nice videos!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > In Ron van Bruchem's 57.31 4x4x4 solve, the video clearly shows
                > > > > that the
                > > > > > > solved cube should have received a +2 penalty. However, the
                > > > > results in
                > > > > > > the WCA Database show that his time was accepted as 57.31. What
                > > > > happened?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > -Anthony
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > > > From: Kai Jiptner
                > > > > > > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
                > > > > > > Subject: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German Open 2007
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > As promised here are the Videos I recoded this weekend.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > http://iu806.kilu.de/kai/
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Thanks to all of you, it was such a great experience for me.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Kai
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Ron
                Hi guys, I must say I still find it hard to judge from these images. The video camera does not have a straight angle with the cube (you see parts of the right
                Message 7 of 13 , May 5, 2007
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                  Hi guys,

                  I must say I still find it hard to judge from these images. The video
                  camera does not have a straight angle with the cube (you see parts of
                  the right side of the cube).
                  On the front side it looks like the corner has indeed passed the
                  border of the next piece. Even by a clear margin.
                  On the right side though it looks like it is still slightly clean.

                  Although the time difference is not big (average would have been 0.03
                  worse) I do feel bad about this case. :-(
                  At the time it was my true opinion that the corner did not pass the
                  line. I am very strict, also to myself.

                  We may need an RFC for the next version of the WCA regulations for
                  such cases. I already heard someone say that a half (quarter) turn
                  would be easier to judge.

                  Have fun,

                  Ron

                  --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Lars Vandenbergh"
                  <lars.vandenbergh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think this is quite interesting. You can see Ron and Rama looking
                  from the side of the
                  > cube, but we (or the camera) are looking at it from the back. I'm
                  pretty sure Ron would
                  > have called a +2 on himself if it was over the edge. But if I watch
                  the video it looks almost
                  > dead certain it was misaligned too far, although it's hard to tell
                  because we don't see the
                  > borders.
                  >
                  > Since the pieces of the Rubik's 4x4x4 are a bit loose compared to
                  other puzzles, it could
                  > be possible that the corner is too far one side but not on another
                  side. On my 4x4x4 I was
                  > able to set up a position like this.
                  >
                  > Should the rules be adjusted for this case?
                  >
                  > Kind regards,
                  > Lars
                  >
                  > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Gilles van den
                  Peereboom"
                  > <gillesvdp@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The rule for 4x4 is the same as for 5x5 and 3x3 : look at the
                  lines.
                  > > If the corner is too far away so that the line passes the other
                  (clear isn't
                  > > it ?), it is a +2. :D
                  > >
                  > > Gilles
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 2007/5/4, smgfreak_dk <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>:
                  > > >
                  > > > I think YOU need to look at the colors.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In
                  speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > "megafrikkie"
                  > > > <megafrikkie@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned so
                  it is
                  > > > > good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on
                  the inner
                  > > > > side of that.
                  > > > http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In
                  speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > smgfreak_dk
                  > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Looks like a +2 to me.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In
                  speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > "Ron van Bruchem"
                  > > > > > <ron@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Hi Anthony,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >the video clearly shows that the solved cube should have
                  received
                  > > > > a +2
                  > > > > > > >penalty
                  > > > > > > Are you sure about that? We checked it (as you can see on
                  the video)
                  > > > > > and
                  > > > > > > both judge and me thought it was exactly on the border.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Have fun,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Ron
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > > From: "Anthony Hsu" <erwaman@>
                  > > > > > > To:
                  <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:27 AM
                  > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German
                  Open 2007
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Nice videos!
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > In Ron van Bruchem's 57.31 4x4x4 solve, the video
                  clearly shows
                  > > > > > that the
                  > > > > > > > solved cube should have received a +2 penalty. However,
                  the
                  > > > > > results in
                  > > > > > > > the WCA Database show that his time was accepted as
                  57.31. What
                  > > > > > happened?
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > -Anthony
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > > > From: Kai Jiptner
                  > > > > > > > To:
                  speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
                  > > > > > > > Subject: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German
                  Open 2007
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > As promised here are the Videos I recoded this weekend.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > http://iu806.kilu.de/kai/
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Thanks to all of you, it was such a great experience
                  for me.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Kai
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • Ron
                  Hi again guys, OK, I took my competition 4x4, I positioned it at the angle of the camera and tried to reconstruct exactly the same misalignment as the one on
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi again guys,

                    OK, I took my competition 4x4, I positioned it at the angle of the
                    camera and tried to reconstruct exactly the same misalignment as the
                    one on the video.
                    There are at least 3 places where you could look for misalignment,
                    and only 1 is the correct one:
                    1) left side of UFR corner <==> left side of ufr center (correct)
                    2) right side of UFR corner <==> right side of ufr center (incorrect)
                    3) right side of UFl edge <==> right side of uFL edge (incorrect)

                    From the reconstructed misalignment on my cube the results were:
                    1) two mm past the border (with the loose corner I could bring it
                    down to one mm)
                    2) still on good side of the border
                    3) exactly on the border

                    So it looks like the judge's call (and mine of course) was incorrect.
                    It should have been a penalty.

                    Given the fact that I thought it was exactly on the border, I think I
                    must have mistakingly looked at border 3.
                    My mistake, sorry.

                    FYI, I also think the 5x5 world record single had a misalignment that
                    should have had a penalty.

                    We will not change the results, but I think we do need actions to
                    make sure this does not happen anymore. The best is to have very easy
                    regulations. The second best is to better train the judges.

                    Have fun,

                    Ron

                    --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ron@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi guys,
                    >
                    > I must say I still find it hard to judge from these images. The
                    video
                    > camera does not have a straight angle with the cube (you see parts
                    of
                    > the right side of the cube).
                    > On the front side it looks like the corner has indeed passed the
                    > border of the next piece. Even by a clear margin.
                    > On the right side though it looks like it is still slightly clean.
                    >
                    > Although the time difference is not big (average would have been
                    0.03
                    > worse) I do feel bad about this case. :-(
                    > At the time it was my true opinion that the corner did not pass the
                    > line. I am very strict, also to myself.
                    >
                    > We may need an RFC for the next version of the WCA regulations for
                    > such cases. I already heard someone say that a half (quarter) turn
                    > would be easier to judge.
                    >
                    > Have fun,
                    >
                    > Ron
                    >
                    > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Lars Vandenbergh"
                    > <lars.vandenbergh@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I think this is quite interesting. You can see Ron and Rama
                    looking
                    > from the side of the
                    > > cube, but we (or the camera) are looking at it from the back. I'm
                    > pretty sure Ron would
                    > > have called a +2 on himself if it was over the edge. But if I
                    watch
                    > the video it looks almost
                    > > dead certain it was misaligned too far, although it's hard to
                    tell
                    > because we don't see the
                    > > borders.
                    > >
                    > > Since the pieces of the Rubik's 4x4x4 are a bit loose compared to
                    > other puzzles, it could
                    > > be possible that the corner is too far one side but not on
                    another
                    > side. On my 4x4x4 I was
                    > > able to set up a position like this.
                    > >
                    > > Should the rules be adjusted for this case?
                    > >
                    > > Kind regards,
                    > > Lars
                    > >
                    > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Gilles van den
                    > Peereboom"
                    > > <gillesvdp@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > The rule for 4x4 is the same as for 5x5 and 3x3 : look at the
                    > lines.
                    > > > If the corner is too far away so that the line passes the other
                    > (clear isn't
                    > > > it ?), it is a +2. :D
                    > > >
                    > > > Gilles
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 2007/5/4, smgfreak_dk <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think YOU need to look at the colors.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In
                    > speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > > "megafrikkie"
                    > > > > <megafrikkie@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I think it is not, the 2 lines of the borders are alligned
                    so
                    > it is
                    > > > > > good, remember not to look at the top of the corner but on
                    > the inner
                    > > > > > side of that.
                    > > > > http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#solvedstate
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In
                    > speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > > smgfreak_dk
                    > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Looks like a +2 to me.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In
                    > speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > > "Ron van Bruchem"
                    > > > > > > <ron@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Hi Anthony,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >the video clearly shows that the solved cube should
                    have
                    > received
                    > > > > > a +2
                    > > > > > > > >penalty
                    > > > > > > > Are you sure about that? We checked it (as you can see
                    on
                    > the video)
                    > > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > both judge and me thought it was exactly on the border.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Have fun,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Ron
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > > > From: "Anthony Hsu" <erwaman@>
                    > > > > > > > To:
                    > <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:27 AM
                    > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German
                    > Open 2007
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Nice videos!
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > In Ron van Bruchem's 57.31 4x4x4 solve, the video
                    > clearly shows
                    > > > > > > that the
                    > > > > > > > > solved cube should have received a +2 penalty.
                    However,
                    > the
                    > > > > > > results in
                    > > > > > > > > the WCA Database show that his time was accepted as
                    > 57.31. What
                    > > > > > > happened?
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > -Anthony
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > > > > From: Kai Jiptner
                    > > > > > > > > To:
                    > speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
                    > > > > > > > > Subject: [Speed cubing group] My Videos from German
                    > Open 2007
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > As promised here are the Videos I recoded this
                    weekend.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > http://iu806.kilu.de/kai/
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Thanks to all of you, it was such a great experience
                    > for me.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Kai
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Joël van Noort
                    ... that ... Hi Ron, Yes, I totally agree with you. The funny thing was, I was witnessing it, and assumed it was going to be a penalty... The judge had doubts,
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 6, 2007
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                      > FYI, I also think the 5x5 world record single had a misalignment
                      that
                      > should have had a penalty.
                      >


                      Hi Ron,

                      Yes, I totally agree with you. The funny thing was, I was witnessing
                      it, and assumed it was going to be a penalty... The judge had doubts,
                      asked the main judge, who gave his opinion about it without even
                      comming close to the cube. It all went by in a flash, and nobody in
                      the audience got the time to even come close to the cube and judge for
                      themselves; the judge quickly picked up the cube, and the incident was
                      over. This last remark about the audience not being able to see for
                      themselves might seem irrelevant to some, but I think it's quite
                      important, especially when it's about a world record.

                      - Joël.
                    • Ron van Bruchem
                      Hi Frédérick, ... I was trying to point out that with good judges things can still go wrong or be debatable. I give you my apologies for bringing this
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 6, 2007
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                        Hi Frédérick,


                        > I guess I deserve your apologies.
                        > (Ron, feel free to do the same)
                        I was trying to point out that with good judges things can still go wrong or
                        be debatable.
                        I give you my apologies for bringing this discussion up.

                        Still in this case I think there should have been a penalty.
                        Not with the outer layer, there I think it is exactly on the border, but
                        with the middle layer where I think it is past the border.

                        Anyway, we will not change the results.

                        Have fun,

                        Ron


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Frédérick BADIE" <f_badie@...>
                        To: <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:21 PM
                        Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: My Videos from German Open 2007


                        Hi Joel,

                        you were here to judge, on my left:
                        http://frederickbadie.free.fr/im1.bmp

                        not exactly here :
                        http://frederickbadie.free.fr/im3.bmp

                        this angle on the video is better to judge, but not perfect (on the
                        left of cube axis too).
                        The judge shows the line with his pencil and asked the main judge to
                        confirm his own opinion.
                        No problem for this case :

                        http://frederickbadie.free.fr/im2.bmp

                        I guess I deserve your apologies.
                        (Ron, feel free to do the same)

                        Have fun,
                        Frédérick.

                        --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, Joël van Noort
                        <joel_vn@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > FYI, I also think the 5x5 world record single had a misalignment
                        > that
                        > > should have had a penalty.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Ron,
                        >
                        > Yes, I totally agree with you. The funny thing was, I was witnessing
                        > it, and assumed it was going to be a penalty... The judge had doubts,
                        > asked the main judge, who gave his opinion about it without even
                        > comming close to the cube. It all went by in a flash, and nobody in
                        > the audience got the time to even come close to the cube and judge for
                        > themselves; the judge quickly picked up the cube, and the incident was
                        > over. This last remark about the audience not being able to see for
                        > themselves might seem irrelevant to some, but I think it's quite
                        > important, especially when it's about a world record.
                        >
                        > - Joël.
                        >
                      • Tyson Mao
                        We cannot change the results. We have said all along that video evidence will not be accepted. In the United States, maybe 50 years ago, an umpire made a bad
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 6, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          We cannot change the results. We have said all along that video
                          evidence will not be accepted. In the United States, maybe 50 years
                          ago, an umpire made a bad call in the world series. Someone had a
                          picture of the person touching first base with the ball still in the
                          air, and the umpire called him out, so they blew up the picture and it
                          ended up on the front page.

                          We will still continue to rely on humans to make these calls. I really
                          do think it'll make things easier.

                          -Tyson

                          On May 6, 2007, at 7:10 AM, Ron van Bruchem wrote:

                          > Hi Frédérick,
                          >
                          > > I guess I deserve your apologies.
                          > > (Ron, feel free to do the same)
                          > I was trying to point out that with good judges things can still go
                          > wrong or
                          > be debatable.
                          > I give you my apologies for bringing this discussion up.
                          >
                          > Still in this case I think there should have been a penalty.
                          > Not with the outer layer, there I think it is exactly on the border,
                          > but
                          > with the middle layer where I think it is past the border.
                          >
                          > Anyway, we will not change the results.
                          >
                          > Have fun,
                          >
                          > Ron
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Frédérick BADIE" <f_badie@...>
                          > To: <speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:21 PM
                          > Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: My Videos from German Open 2007
                          >
                          > Hi Joel,
                          >
                          > you were here to judge, on my left:
                          > http://frederickbadie.free.fr/im1.bmp
                          >
                          > not exactly here :
                          > http://frederickbadie.free.fr/im3.bmp
                          >
                          > this angle on the video is better to judge, but not perfect (on the
                          > left of cube axis too).
                          > The judge shows the line with his pencil and asked the main judge to
                          > confirm his own opinion.
                          > No problem for this case :
                          >
                          > http://frederickbadie.free.fr/im2.bmp
                          >
                          > I guess I deserve your apologies.
                          > (Ron, feel free to do the same)
                          >
                          > Have fun,
                          > Frédérick.
                          >
                          > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, Joël van Noort
                          > <joel_vn@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > FYI, I also think the 5x5 world record single had a misalignment
                          > > that
                          > > > should have had a penalty.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Ron,
                          > >
                          > > Yes, I totally agree with you. The funny thing was, I was witnessing
                          > > it, and assumed it was going to be a penalty... The judge had
                          > doubts,
                          > > asked the main judge, who gave his opinion about it without even
                          > > comming close to the cube. It all went by in a flash, and nobody in
                          > > the audience got the time to even come close to the cube and judge
                          > for
                          > > themselves; the judge quickly picked up the cube, and the incident
                          > was
                          > > over. This last remark about the audience not being able to see for
                          > > themselves might seem irrelevant to some, but I think it's quite
                          > > important, especially when it's about a world record.
                          > >
                          > > - Joël.
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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