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Re: [Speed cubing group] blind WR and bad judge

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  • d_funny007
    ... cube down before donning the blindfold. Yet, I have seen many times that people just put the blindfold on and go for it. Which way is right? Good
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 1, 2007
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      --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, Frank Morris
      <ephem825@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is partially on topic, but I have heard that you must set the
      cube down before donning the blindfold. Yet, I have seen many times
      that people just put the blindfold on and go for it. Which way is
      right?


      Good question. I have always placed my blindfold on my forehead before
      memorization and then slipped it down to my eyes just before starting.
      No body has pointed out anything wrong in what I do. So I would hope
      that it is okay. I can't think of a reason why it would not be okay.

      Anyone with a definitive answer?


      -Doug
    • Dan
      Hey Lazy Ass :) I checked the regs, and this particular rule doesn t seem to be in. But there is a regulation... # B4b) The competitor may manipulate the
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 1, 2007
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        Hey Lazy Ass :)

        I checked the regs, and this particular rule doesn't seem to be in.
        But there is a regulation...

        # B4b) The competitor may manipulate the puzzle only after the judge
        has verified that the competitor has properly donned the blindfold.
        The judge must not delay the competitor by more than 1 second.

        Seems a bit of a funny rule to me, I bet not many judges know it...

        Dan :)

        --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, Frank Morris
        <ephem825@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is partially on topic, but I have heard that you must set the
        cube down before donning the blindfold. Yet, I have seen many times
        that people just put the blindfold on and go for it. Which way is right?
        >
        > I guess I could stop being a lazy ass and look in the regs, but I
        don't wanna.
        >
        > Frank
        >
        > Tyson Mao <tyson.mao@...> wrote:
        > Stefan,
        >
        > Can you think of a way to help protect against cheating? Do we need to
        > switch to the blacked-out swim goggles?
        >
        > -Tyson
        >
        > On Mar 1, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Stefan Pochmann wrote:
        >
        > > Just in case you haven't seen it, Oliver posted a video of Matyas's
        > > WR here:
        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB38wG2XkI
        > >
        > > What's the judge doing 48 seconds into the solve? Sticking his hand
        > > between Matyas and the cube? That should be forbidden. It doesn't
        > > prove anything and only creates a chance that the two persons
        > > accidentally touch each other which could distract the cuber a lot.
        > > Bad! This judge behaviour is not even in the regulations. Where did
        > > he get that stupid idea from?
        > >
        > > Stefan
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask
        your question on Yahoo! Answers.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Koen Heltzel
        As far as I know this is common practice, at least in competitions I attended the last year. I did the same thing with a paper at the Belgian Open... I
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 1, 2007
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          As far as I know this is common practice, at least in competitions I
          attended the last year. I did the same thing with a paper at the
          Belgian Open... I absolutely trusted the people I was judging (and any
          participant at that competition for what it's worth), but I think it's
          comparable to an illusionist who uses a steel ring to prove to the
          audience something is floating in the air .. if you catch my drift.

          Personally I don't feel comfortable doing this as a judge , because
          A) To the competitors or audience it might be interpreted as the judge
          not trusting the competitor (which could be a good thing as well, but
          most of the time the competitor in question is in fact someone with a
          good reputation).
          B) I don't know if blindsolvers notice and get distracted with this
          routine... I try to do it very carefully... but am not sure

          But because of the first point (A) I just made, I think this routine
          should be done to all competitors in blindfold events, or none of them.

          I checked what the official regulations are, but they say nothing
          about the judge checking the blindfold while the competitor is already
          in the solving phase.

          - Koen


          --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, d_funny007
          <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't think that that is a bad idea. It does prove a lot, and has
          > minimal risk of distraction. Plus, I think that a cuber should be
          > able to cope with such distractions. An accidental bump, flicker in
          > lighting, or sudden loud noises from the audience should not be much
          > of a problem for an experienced cuber.
          >
          > I think it's a good idea, and shows that the judge was being
          > proactive in detecting forms of cheating.
          >
          >
          > -Doug
          >
          >
          > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Pochmann"
          > <pochmann@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Just in case you haven't seen it, Oliver posted a video of
          > Matyas's
          > > WR here:
          > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB38wG2XkI
          > >
          > > What's the judge doing 48 seconds into the solve? Sticking his
          > hand
          > > between Matyas and the cube? That should be forbidden. It doesn't
          > > prove anything and only creates a chance that the two persons
          > > accidentally touch each other which could distract the cuber a
          > lot.
          > > Bad! This judge behaviour is not even in the regulations. Where
          > did
          > > he get that stupid idea from?
          > >
          > > Stefan
          > >
          >
        • Rory Margraf
          So what does a competitor do if they have no intention of cheating, but somewhere in the solve, they realize that there is a space that they don t want? If
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 1, 2007
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            So what does a competitor do if they have no intention of cheating, but somewhere in the solve, they realize that there is a space that they don't want? If they stop and tell the judge, this good for them morally and the other competitors competitively as the competition results aren't skewed, but it also means that the solve has to be nullified for that competitor so now the situation becomes a bit more complex.

            Rory

            goodxy2002 <goodxy2002@...> wrote: hand waving is a necessary. the judge just has to be careful to not
            interfere






            ---------------------------------
            We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
            (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Johannes Laire
            ... If I wanted to cheat and was looking under the blindfold, doing this wouldn t help the judge to notice it. I would just do some T-permutations etc. while
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 1, 2007
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              --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, d_funny007
              <no_reply@...> wrote:
              > I don't think that that is a bad idea. It does prove a lot, and has
              > minimal risk of distraction.

              If I wanted to cheat and was looking under the blindfold, doing this
              wouldn't help the judge to notice it. I would just do some
              T-permutations etc. while the hand/paper was there and continue
              solving after I could see the cube again. But I don't think anyone is
              going to seriously do that.

              --
              Johannes Laire

              > -Doug
            • Joël van Noort
              Hi Koen, Did you also do it when you were judging me..? I am almost certain Ron also did it with me, while I didn t feel anything. I do remember that Mathyas
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 2, 2007
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                Hi Koen,

                Did you also do it when you were judging me..?

                I am almost certain Ron also did it with me, while I didn't feel
                anything.

                I do remember that Mathyas noticed it in this case. I could see him
                being annoyed by it, an he was definately distracted, but NOT like
                any response one would have when he was able to see the cube and his
                sight was blocked (just te be clear about that). The judge probably
                touched him in one way or another.

                - Joël.

                --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Koen Heltzel"
                <allyourbase@...> wrote:
                >
                > As far as I know this is common practice, at least in competitions I
                > attended the last year. I did the same thing with a paper at the
                > Belgian Open... I absolutely trusted the people I was judging (and
                any
                > participant at that competition for what it's worth), but I think
                it's
                > comparable to an illusionist who uses a steel ring to prove to the
                > audience something is floating in the air .. if you catch my drift.
                >
                > Personally I don't feel comfortable doing this as a judge , because
                > A) To the competitors or audience it might be interpreted as the
                judge
                > not trusting the competitor (which could be a good thing as well,
                but
                > most of the time the competitor in question is in fact someone with
                a
                > good reputation).
                > B) I don't know if blindsolvers notice and get distracted with this
                > routine... I try to do it very carefully... but am not sure
                >
                > But because of the first point (A) I just made, I think this routine
                > should be done to all competitors in blindfold events, or none of
                them.
                >
                > I checked what the official regulations are, but they say nothing
                > about the judge checking the blindfold while the competitor is
                already
                > in the solving phase.
                >
                > - Koen
                >
                >
                > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, d_funny007
                > <no_reply@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I don't think that that is a bad idea. It does prove a lot, and
                has
                > > minimal risk of distraction. Plus, I think that a cuber should be
                > > able to cope with such distractions. An accidental bump, flicker
                in
                > > lighting, or sudden loud noises from the audience should not be
                much
                > > of a problem for an experienced cuber.
                > >
                > > I think it's a good idea, and shows that the judge was being
                > > proactive in detecting forms of cheating.
                > >
                > >
                > > -Doug
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Pochmann"
                > > <pochmann@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Just in case you haven't seen it, Oliver posted a video of
                > > Matyas's
                > > > WR here:
                > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB38wG2XkI
                > > >
                > > > What's the judge doing 48 seconds into the solve? Sticking his
                > > hand
                > > > between Matyas and the cube? That should be forbidden. It
                doesn't
                > > > prove anything and only creates a chance that the two persons
                > > > accidentally touch each other which could distract the cuber a
                > > lot.
                > > > Bad! This judge behaviour is not even in the regulations. Where
                > > did
                > > > he get that stupid idea from?
                > > >
                > > > Stefan
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Koen Heltzel
                Yes, I did this during all attempts I judged. - Koen
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 2, 2007
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                  Yes, I did this during all attempts I judged.

                  - Koen


                  --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, Joël van Noort
                  <joel_vn@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Koen,
                  >
                  > Did you also do it when you were judging me..?
                  >
                  > I am almost certain Ron also did it with me, while I didn't feel
                  > anything.
                  >
                  > I do remember that Mathyas noticed it in this case. I could see him
                  > being annoyed by it, an he was definately distracted, but NOT like
                  > any response one would have when he was able to see the cube and his
                  > sight was blocked (just te be clear about that). The judge probably
                  > touched him in one way or another.
                  >
                  > - Joël.
                  >
                  > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Koen Heltzel"
                  > <allyourbase@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > As far as I know this is common practice, at least in competitions I
                  > > attended the last year. I did the same thing with a paper at the
                  > > Belgian Open... I absolutely trusted the people I was judging (and
                  > any
                  > > participant at that competition for what it's worth), but I think
                  > it's
                  > > comparable to an illusionist who uses a steel ring to prove to the
                  > > audience something is floating in the air .. if you catch my drift.
                  > >
                  > > Personally I don't feel comfortable doing this as a judge , because
                  > > A) To the competitors or audience it might be interpreted as the
                  > judge
                  > > not trusting the competitor (which could be a good thing as well,
                  > but
                  > > most of the time the competitor in question is in fact someone with
                  > a
                  > > good reputation).
                  > > B) I don't know if blindsolvers notice and get distracted with this
                  > > routine... I try to do it very carefully... but am not sure
                  > >
                  > > But because of the first point (A) I just made, I think this routine
                  > > should be done to all competitors in blindfold events, or none of
                  > them.
                  > >
                  > > I checked what the official regulations are, but they say nothing
                  > > about the judge checking the blindfold while the competitor is
                  > already
                  > > in the solving phase.
                  > >
                  > > - Koen
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, d_funny007
                  > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't think that that is a bad idea. It does prove a lot, and
                  > has
                  > > > minimal risk of distraction. Plus, I think that a cuber should be
                  > > > able to cope with such distractions. An accidental bump, flicker
                  > in
                  > > > lighting, or sudden loud noises from the audience should not be
                  > much
                  > > > of a problem for an experienced cuber.
                  > > >
                  > > > I think it's a good idea, and shows that the judge was being
                  > > > proactive in detecting forms of cheating.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > -Doug
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Pochmann"
                  > > > <pochmann@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Just in case you haven't seen it, Oliver posted a video of
                  > > > Matyas's
                  > > > > WR here:
                  > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB38wG2XkI
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What's the judge doing 48 seconds into the solve? Sticking his
                  > > > hand
                  > > > > between Matyas and the cube? That should be forbidden. It
                  > doesn't
                  > > > > prove anything and only creates a chance that the two persons
                  > > > > accidentally touch each other which could distract the cuber a
                  > > > lot.
                  > > > > Bad! This judge behaviour is not even in the regulations. Where
                  > > > did
                  > > > > he get that stupid idea from?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Stefan
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Stefan Pochmann
                  ... need to ... Well, yes I still like the idea of those goggles I suggested recently. Those weren t swimming goggles, though, but protective glasses for
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 2, 2007
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                    --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, Tyson Mao
                    <tyson.mao@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Stefan,
                    >
                    > Can you think of a way to help protect against cheating? Do we
                    need to
                    > switch to the blacked-out swim goggles?
                    >
                    > -Tyson

                    Well, yes I still like the idea of those goggles I suggested
                    recently. Those weren't swimming goggles, though, but protective
                    glasses for welding. The key idea is that the judge can check
                    *before* the whole attempt, and thus with no need to rush, that the
                    glasses sit tight on the skin, and that the front part can be closed
                    by the competitor quickly and safely, somewhat snapping into place so
                    that there's really no way to see through.

                    I believe all the blindfolds I have used in competitions so far
                    would've allowed me to see the cube, had I wanted to.

                    Cheers!
                    Stefan
                  • Arnaud van Galen
                    Yes, I remember the judge checking Mathyas during his second solve. I also think he was touched, because his reaction was that of someone that was in full
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 2, 2007
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                      Yes, I remember the judge checking Mathyas during his second solve. I also think he was touched, because his reaction was that of someone that was in full focus and then suddenly disturbed.

                      I really like Stefans idea of the welding glasses.
                      They wouldn't allow people to cheat,
                      Disturbing checks would not be necessary (they could be done in advance),
                      People with glasses wouldn't lose time,
                      They wouldn't put as much strain on the eyes/head is swimming goggles,
                      It could even look "tough" ;-}

                      Now how would we acquire a dozen or more of these without spending any/too much money?

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Joël van Noort
                      To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 10:11 AM
                      Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: blind WR and bad judge


                      Hi Koen,

                      Did you also do it when you were judging me..?

                      I am almost certain Ron also did it with me, while I didn't feel
                      anything.

                      I do remember that Mathyas noticed it in this case. I could see him
                      being annoyed by it, an he was definately distracted, but NOT like
                      any response one would have when he was able to see the cube and his
                      sight was blocked (just te be clear about that). The judge probably
                      touched him in one way or another.

                      - Joël.

                      --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Koen Heltzel"
                      <allyourbase@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > As far as I know this is common practice, at least in competitions I
                      > attended the last year. I did the same thing with a paper at the
                      > Belgian Open... I absolutely trusted the people I was judging (and
                      any
                      > participant at that competition for what it's worth), but I think
                      it's
                      > comparable to an illusionist who uses a steel ring to prove to the
                      > audience something is floating in the air .. if you catch my drift.
                      >
                      > Personally I don't feel comfortable doing this as a judge , because
                      > A) To the competitors or audience it might be interpreted as the
                      judge
                      > not trusting the competitor (which could be a good thing as well,
                      but
                      > most of the time the competitor in question is in fact someone with
                      a
                      > good reputation).
                      > B) I don't know if blindsolvers notice and get distracted with this
                      > routine... I try to do it very carefully... but am not sure
                      >
                      > But because of the first point (A) I just made, I think this routine
                      > should be done to all competitors in blindfold events, or none of
                      them.
                      >
                      > I checked what the official regulations are, but they say nothing
                      > about the judge checking the blindfold while the competitor is
                      already
                      > in the solving phase.
                      >
                      > - Koen
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, d_funny007
                      > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I don't think that that is a bad idea. It does prove a lot, and
                      has
                      > > minimal risk of distraction. Plus, I think that a cuber should be
                      > > able to cope with such distractions. An accidental bump, flicker
                      in
                      > > lighting, or sudden loud noises from the audience should not be
                      much
                      > > of a problem for an experienced cuber.
                      > >
                      > > I think it's a good idea, and shows that the judge was being
                      > > proactive in detecting forms of cheating.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -Doug
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Pochmann"
                      > > <pochmann@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Just in case you haven't seen it, Oliver posted a video of
                      > > Matyas's
                      > > > WR here:
                      > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB38wG2XkI
                      > > >
                      > > > What's the judge doing 48 seconds into the solve? Sticking his
                      > > hand
                      > > > between Matyas and the cube? That should be forbidden. It
                      doesn't
                      > > > prove anything and only creates a chance that the two persons
                      > > > accidentally touch each other which could distract the cuber a
                      > > lot.
                      > > > Bad! This judge behaviour is not even in the regulations. Where
                      > > did
                      > > > he get that stupid idea from?
                      > > >
                      > > > Stefan
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Gilles van den Peereboom
                      Well, just use a bit of the income of championships to invest in goggles. Just as mush as a bit of income is now invested in stopwatches and so on ! Gilles ...
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 2, 2007
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                        Well, just use a bit of the income of championships to invest in goggles.
                        Just as mush as a bit of income is now invested in stopwatches and so on !

                        Gilles

                        2007/3/2, Arnaud van Galen <avgalen@...>:
                        >
                        > Yes, I remember the judge checking Mathyas during his second solve. I
                        > also think he was touched, because his reaction was that of someone that was
                        > in full focus and then suddenly disturbed.
                        >
                        > I really like Stefans idea of the welding glasses.
                        > They wouldn't allow people to cheat,
                        > Disturbing checks would not be necessary (they could be done in advance),
                        > People with glasses wouldn't lose time,
                        > They wouldn't put as much strain on the eyes/head is swimming goggles,
                        > It could even look "tough" ;-}
                        >
                        > Now how would we acquire a dozen or more of these without spending any/too
                        > much money?
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Joël van Noort
                        > To: speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 10:11 AM
                        > Subject: [Speed cubing group] Re: blind WR and bad judge
                        >
                        > Hi Koen,
                        >
                        > Did you also do it when you were judging me..?
                        >
                        > I am almost certain Ron also did it with me, while I didn't feel
                        > anything.
                        >
                        > I do remember that Mathyas noticed it in this case. I could see him
                        > being annoyed by it, an he was definately distracted, but NOT like
                        > any response one would have when he was able to see the cube and his
                        > sight was blocked (just te be clear about that). The judge probably
                        > touched him in one way or another.
                        >
                        > - Joël.
                        >
                        > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > "Koen Heltzel"
                        > <allyourbase@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > As far as I know this is common practice, at least in competitions I
                        > > attended the last year. I did the same thing with a paper at the
                        > > Belgian Open... I absolutely trusted the people I was judging (and
                        > any
                        > > participant at that competition for what it's worth), but I think
                        > it's
                        > > comparable to an illusionist who uses a steel ring to prove to the
                        > > audience something is floating in the air .. if you catch my drift.
                        > >
                        > > Personally I don't feel comfortable doing this as a judge , because
                        > > A) To the competitors or audience it might be interpreted as the
                        > judge
                        > > not trusting the competitor (which could be a good thing as well,
                        > but
                        > > most of the time the competitor in question is in fact someone with
                        > a
                        > > good reputation).
                        > > B) I don't know if blindsolvers notice and get distracted with this
                        > > routine... I try to do it very carefully... but am not sure
                        > >
                        > > But because of the first point (A) I just made, I think this routine
                        > > should be done to all competitors in blindfold events, or none of
                        > them.
                        > >
                        > > I checked what the official regulations are, but they say nothing
                        > > about the judge checking the blindfold while the competitor is
                        > already
                        > > in the solving phase.
                        > >
                        > > - Koen
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > d_funny007
                        > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't think that that is a bad idea. It does prove a lot, and
                        > has
                        > > > minimal risk of distraction. Plus, I think that a cuber should be
                        > > > able to cope with such distractions. An accidental bump, flicker
                        > in
                        > > > lighting, or sudden loud noises from the audience should not be
                        > much
                        > > > of a problem for an experienced cuber.
                        > > >
                        > > > I think it's a good idea, and shows that the judge was being
                        > > > proactive in detecting forms of cheating.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > -Doug
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com<speedsolvingrubikscube%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > "Stefan Pochmann"
                        > > > <pochmann@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Just in case you haven't seen it, Oliver posted a video of
                        > > > Matyas's
                        > > > > WR here:
                        > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB38wG2XkI
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What's the judge doing 48 seconds into the solve? Sticking his
                        > > > hand
                        > > > > between Matyas and the cube? That should be forbidden. It
                        > doesn't
                        > > > > prove anything and only creates a chance that the two persons
                        > > > > accidentally touch each other which could distract the cuber a
                        > > > lot.
                        > > > > Bad! This judge behaviour is not even in the regulations. Where
                        > > > did
                        > > > > he get that stupid idea from?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Stefan
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • thewetdog
                        ... goggles. ... so on ! ... And Stackmat timers and Tournament Displays. Speaking of which, has everyone seen the new style of the second generation? It has
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 2, 2007
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                          --- In speedsolvingrubikscube@yahoogroups.com, "Gilles van den
                          Peereboom" <gillesvdp@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Well, just use a bit of the income of championships to invest in
                          goggles.
                          > Just as mush as a bit of income is now invested in stopwatches and
                          so on !
                          >
                          > Gilles



                          And Stackmat timers and Tournament Displays. Speaking of which, has
                          everyone seen the new style of the second generation? It has the date
                          and time displayed even when in off mode. You can also save 3 times
                          under the various Speedstack cycles.

                          -Dave
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