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Re: Cavity filter Answer

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  • Scotty
    ... design in general. How did you know you needed about 1 and .25 tubing? How did you come about the 3 length, ect. I ve seen purchased can filters that
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 3, 2007
      > Up for general discussion, I'm curious how you came up with the
      design in general. How did you know you needed about 1" and .25"
      tubing? How did you come about the 3" length, ect. I've seen purchased
      can filters that have good Q, I'm assuming these little barrels have
      a good Q as well.

      Answer:
      The purpose of this filter is to attenuate the image frequency of
      1034.4 MHz. Therefore, the main criteria was for steep skirts. Steep
      skirts means, narrow bandwidth. Very narrow bandwidth means very high
      Q. Very high Q needs very low internal dissipation loss. Low
      internal loss means a high characteristic impedance. Higher
      characteristic impedance means more insertion loss when matching to 50
      ohms.
      So, a compromise must take place. A good compromise area is a
      characteristic impedance of between 80 and 90 ohms.
      The larger the diameter of the cavity, the higher the Q. Another
      tradeoff occurs. How big is too big? I settled on this size because
      of the "standard" size copper pipes available. 1.03 inch air cavity
      and 1/4 inch stub turns out to be a transmission line with a
      characteristic impedance of 84.97 ohms. Smack in the middle of the 80
      to 90 ohm compromise.
      The stub length is simply the 1/4 electrical wavelength in air
      (about 93%). The 3.1 inches overall length gives a 10% air gap to
      overcome "capacitive end effect" of the stubs vs end plate. The
      overall length could be increased to anything over that. The tuning
      screws controls "capacitive end effect" and thus, center frequency.
      No tuning screws, and absolutely no capacitive end effect, would
      give a filter with a bit more Q. This is what Harold did. He also
      silver plated the thing, adding a bit more Q on top of that.
      The "Perfect" filter would have a bandwidth that was the same as the
      maximum Resolution Bandwidth used in the Spectrum Analyzer, about 100
      KHz. This would necessitate a Q of over 10,000. Ain't gonna happen
      with stuff from Home Depot.
      Cheers, Scotty
    • yahoogroup@jaredharvey.com
      Hello Scotty, S 1.03 inch air cavity and 1/4 inch stub turns out to be a S transmission line with a characteristic impedance of 84.97 ohms. How
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 3, 2007
        Hello Scotty,

        S> 1.03 inch air cavity and 1/4 inch stub turns out to be a
        S> transmission line with a characteristic impedance of 84.97 ohms.

        How does one know it's a transmission line? Can you buy that from
        Tessco or some vendor?

        S> Smack in the middle of the 80 to 90 ohm compromise.

        Ah so the impedance of Mixer 1 must be 80/90 and the input of Mixer 2
        must be 90/80.

        S> The stub length is simply the 1/4 electrical wavelength in air
        S> (about 93%).

        Hmmm why the 93%. I'm willing to simply accept that real world data
        shows that it needs to be that short, but I'm still curious.

        I'm assuming that one cavity would have a smaller Q and the more
        cavities you put in line the higher the insertion losses. So 4
        cavities is another compromise between Q and signal loss.

        What about the .060 and .7 measurements on the RG-141.

        One other thought, could the stub be substituted with a 1/4-20
        threaded rod, that could be adjusted then locked down once it was just
        right? Effectively removing the need for the tuning screw and drilling
        holes in two plates. Hmmm if the cavity can be about any length, does
        it need a top plate? Or could a piece of tape suffice.

        Best regards.

        .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / -.-. .- -. / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
        .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-. -.-.-- / -.-. .-..

        Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT

        e-mail yahoogroup@...
        Web page http://jaredharvey.com
      • Harold E. Johnson
        One other thought, could the stub be substituted with a 1/4-20 threaded rod, that could be adjusted then locked down once it was just right? Effectively
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 3, 2007
          One other thought, could the stub be substituted with a 1/4-20
          threaded rod, that could be adjusted then locked down once it was just
          right? Effectively removing the need for the tuning screw and drilling
          holes in two plates. Hmmm if the cavity can be about any length, does
          it need a top plate? Or could a piece of tape suffice.

          Best regards.
          Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT

          I'll leave the rest to Scotty, but I threaded my 1/4 inch brass rod with a
          1/4-36 die. It still tunes pretty fast. Would be possible I'm sure to do it
          with 1/4-20 threads, but I wouldn't want to be the one to have to tune it
          up.

          W4ZCB
        • Harold E. Johnson
          Harold, I come across your name all over the place. I would take one of those cavities. 73...........wb8nbv.........Ned Your address OK in QRZ? W4ZCB
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 3, 2007
            Harold,

            I come across your name all over the place.

            I would take one of those cavities.

            73...........wb8nbv.........Ned

            Your address OK in QRZ?

            W4ZCB
          • Scotty
            Hi All Jared asks good questions. Here are the answers. ... be a transmission line with a characteristic impedance of 84.97 ohms. How does one know it s
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 3, 2007
              Hi All
              Jared asks good questions. Here are the answers.

              > S> 1.03 inch air cavity and 1/4 inch stub turns out to
              be a transmission line with a characteristic impedance of 84.97 ohms.
              How does one know it's a transmission line? Can you buy that
              from Tessco or some vendor?
              No. The closest thing you could buy is 90 ohm Heliax and even it is
              too lossy. Those little supports that hold the center conductor just
              kill the Q. They act like a dielectric. We want absolutey no
              dielectric in the cavity. Dielectric, no matter how good, still
              absorbs energy.


              > S> Smack in the middle of the 80 to 90 ohm compromise.
              Ah, so the impedance of Mixer 1 must be 80/90 and the input of Mixer 2
              must be 90/80?
              No, the characteristic impedance of each coaxial cavity is 85 ohms.
              The input/output coupling loops are impedance transformations to 50
              ohms. Which leads into your question of:

              > What about the .060 and .7 measurements on the RG-141?
              The theoretical numbers are difficult to explain, but those values
              were finally derived by emperical measurements. I started with .060
              because of the physical dimensions of RG-141. If I had used .080 as
              the spacing away from the wall, the entrance hole would be about .53
              inches instead of .7 inches.

              > S> The stub length is simply the 1/4 electrical wavelength in
              air (about 93%).
              Hmmm why the 93%. I'm willing to simply accept that real world
              data shows that it needs to be that short, but I'm still curious.
              If the cavity and stubs were made from perfect (zero ohms) material,
              and the dielectric were a vacuum instead of air, the velocity factor
              would be 100%. And yes, "they" have made cavities from
              superconducting materials that have Q's in the millions. IE, Lawrence
              Livermore and a few other spooky places.


              > I'm assuming that one cavity would have a smaller Q and the
              more cavities you put in line the higher the insertion losses.
              So 4 cavities is another compromise between Q and signal loss.
              Correct!


              > One other thought, could the stub be substituted with a
              1/4-20 threaded rod, that could be adjusted then locked down once it
              was just right? Effectively removing the need for the tuning screw and
              drilling holes in two plates. Hmmm if the cavity can be about any
              length, does it need a top plate? Or could a piece of tape suffice.
              I would not use a stub that was fully threaded from top to bottom.
              Thread a solid bar or tube for as many threads that is necessary for
              tuning. The reason is not real obvious. Threading a bar will
              electrically, lengthen it. The threads create a longer electrical
              path, a bit like an accordian. It will also change the characteristic
              impedance. The threaded area has peaks and valleys, changing the
              distance to the cavity wall as you move down the axis of the stub. The
              characteristic impedance at a thread peak is 85 ohms, then higher in
              the thread valley. I haven't used a fully threaded bar, and it may
              work just fine. I don't know.
              A top plate is necessary, but, only to prevent external signals from
              entering the cavity and passing thru to the Mixer 2. The top plate
              should be good and solid, to prevent warping over temperature and
              vibration. Remember, the top plate will add a teenie weenie amount of
              "end capacitance" to the stubs. Although minor, physical changes here
              could "dork up" the tuning and phase characteristics of the filter.
              Not much of a problem for MSA but detrimental for VNA.

              Cheers, Scotty
            • yahoogroup@jaredharvey.com
              Hello Scotty, JH One other thought, could the stub be substituted with a JH 1/4-20 threaded rod, that could be adjusted then locked JH down once it was
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 4, 2007
                Hello Scotty,

                JH> One other thought, could the stub be substituted with a
                JH> 1/4-20 threaded rod, that could be adjusted then locked
                JH> down once it was just right? Effectively removing the
                JH> need for the tuning screw and drilling holes in two
                JH> plates.

                S> I would not use a stub that was fully threaded from top
                S> to bottom.

                Hmmm, perhaps a bolt similar to this one at McMastercarr MC#
                91247A026 It's 3.5 long with 3/4" to 1" thread 1/4-28.

                If you soldered this washer MC# 90313A107 just under the
                bolt head, then threaded through the the bottom brass plate,
                you could thread until tuned, then lock it down with a nut
                on the outside of the brass plate. This would only require
                one plate, not two. Doesn't exactly account for the
                structural concerns of warping, but might work out OK. In
                terms of tuning, is the 1/4-28 better or would 1/4-20 give
                good enough resolution. I'd bet the washer and 1/4-20
                version of the bolt could be found at your local hardware
                store.

                Best regards.

                .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / -.-. .- -. / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
                .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-. -.-.-- / -.-. .-..

                Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT

                e-mail yahoogroup@...
                Web page http://jaredharvey.com
              • NJ
                Yup. How can I pay you for handling & postage? WB8NBV
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 4, 2007
                  Yup. How can I pay you for handling & postage?
                  WB8NBV

                  --- In spectrumanalyzer@yahoogroups.com, "Harold E. Johnson"
                  <W4ZCB@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Harold,
                  >
                  > I come across your name all over the place.
                  >
                  > I would take one of those cavities.
                  >
                  > 73...........wb8nbv.........Ned
                  >
                  > Your address OK in QRZ?
                  >
                  > W4ZCB
                  >
                • Harold E. Johnson
                  Ned, Bruce, your cavities on the way tomorrow. Gopi, go ahead and start building, I need to order something from Mousser. Their little boxes are just the right
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 4, 2007
                    Ned, Bruce, your cavities on the way tomorrow. Gopi, go ahead and start building, I need to order something from Mousser. Their little boxes are just the right size. Shouldn't be more than a couple weeks, but will ship soon as I have a nice box.
                     
                    W4ZCB
                  • Scotty
                    Hi Jared, I can t quite visualize what you are suggesting. You sure don t want the bolt head inside the cavity. It would have to be cut off. Even then,
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 4, 2007
                      Hi Jared,
                      I can't quite visualize what you are suggesting. You sure don't want
                      the bolt head inside the cavity. It would have to be cut off. Even
                      then, Zinc-Plated Steel would suck, electrically. It would have to be
                      silver plated, quite thick at that, due to deep skin effect.
                      Scotty

                      --- In spectrumanalyzer@yahoogroups.com, yahoogroup@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Scotty,
                      >
                      > JH> One other thought, could the stub be substituted with a
                      > JH> 1/4-20 threaded rod, that could be adjusted then locked
                      > JH> down once it was just right? Effectively removing the
                      > JH> need for the tuning screw and drilling holes in two
                      > JH> plates.
                      >
                      > S> I would not use a stub that was fully threaded from top
                      > S> to bottom.
                      >
                      > Hmmm, perhaps a bolt similar to this one at McMastercarr MC#
                      > 91247A026 It's 3.5 long with 3/4" to 1" thread 1/4-28.
                      >
                      > If you soldered this washer MC# 90313A107 just under the
                      > bolt head, then threaded through the the bottom brass plate,
                      > you could thread until tuned, then lock it down with a nut
                      > on the outside of the brass plate. This would only require
                      > one plate, not two. Doesn't exactly account for the
                      > structural concerns of warping, but might work out OK. In
                      > terms of tuning, is the 1/4-28 better or would 1/4-20 give
                      > good enough resolution. I'd bet the washer and 1/4-20
                      > version of the bolt could be found at your local hardware
                      > store.
                      >
                      > Best regards.
                      >
                      > .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / -.-. .- -. / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
                      > .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-. -.-.-- / -.-. .-..
                      >
                      > Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT
                      >
                      > e-mail yahoogroup@...
                      > Web page http://jaredharvey.com
                      >
                    • yahoogroup@jaredharvey.com
                      Hello Scotty, S I can t quite visualize what you are suggesting. You S sure don t want the bolt head inside the cavity. I was picturing a brass bar across
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 6, 2007
                        Hello Scotty,

                        S> I can't quite visualize what you are suggesting. You
                        S> sure don't want the bolt head inside the cavity.

                        I was picturing a brass bar across the bottom of the
                        four copper tubes. This bar would have 4, 1/4-20 tapped
                        holes in it, one for each tube. The tubes would be open
                        at the other end. Then you could make a bolt with a 1"
                        diameter top by soldering a washer to the bolt head.
                        This bolt would go in the open end of the each tube,
                        and thread into the brass plate. The washer should
                        close the far end of the tube preventing other RF from
                        getting in. You could adjust the resonance by turning
                        the bolt changing the cavity length. The washer would
                        determine the end of the cavity, so the bolt head would
                        be on the out side of the cavity.

                        S> Even then, Zinc-Plated Steel would suck,
                        S> electrically. It would have to be silver plated,
                        S> quite thick at that, due to deep skin effect.

                        Deep skin effect you say, I found this one 1/4-20 3"
                        long shoulder bolt threads are 3/4" to 1" MC# 92941A554
                        I was hoping for something around 3.5 long, but I think
                        3" would be long enough.

                        I was also curious how important it is for a good
                        electrical connection from the center stub to the brass
                        plat in the bottom. The bolt idea may not make that
                        connection the way a soldered in tube does. I'm not
                        sure if this would be an issue or not.

                        Any how just thinking.

                        Best regards.

                        .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
                        .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-.

                        Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT

                        e-mail yahoogroup@...
                        Web page http://jaredharvey.com
                      • Harold E. Johnson
                        I was also curious how important it is for a good electrical connection from the center stub to the brass plat in the bottom. The bolt idea may not make that
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 6, 2007
                          I was also curious how important it is for a good
                          electrical connection from the center stub to the brass
                          plat in the bottom. The bolt idea may not make that
                          connection the way a soldered in tube does. I'm not
                          sure if this would be an issue or not.

                          Any how just thinking.Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT

                          Unbelievably important. That's THE high curent place and good contact IS
                          mandatory. (As is the joint between the bottom of the tube and the base.)
                          The only way the method works is with a jam nut to force good contact and
                          you have to keep it tight enough even while tuning to make tuning difficult.
                          When you get real close to being on the money you jam it even tighter and
                          pick up another dB and use the screw again to get another quarter.

                          A silver soldered joint is even better but not adjustable, not at all
                          certain that the removal of the bolt head capacity at the Voltage end yields
                          enough improvement to overcome the increased resistance over a silver
                          soldered joint at the cold end. Probably pretty close to a wash but I have
                          made a few silver plated ones that way and obtained Q above 1000. (3 dB
                          bandwidths under 1 MHz at 1013 MHz) Another reason to use a fine thread.

                          W4ZCB
                        • Sam Wetterlin
                          Jared A couple of thoughts on the bolt idea: 1. For the threaded connection use electrician s anti-seize compound. I believe it is full of tiny pieces of metal
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 6, 2007
                            Jared

                            A couple of thoughts on the bolt idea:

                            1. For the threaded connection use electrician's anti-seize compound.
                            I believe it is full of tiny pieces of metal which make great contact
                            when compressed between two conductors. It is certainly intended for
                            extremely low resistance.

                            2. Skin effect--Skin depth is far shallower for magnetic materials
                            like iron than for non magnetic materials like copper. Combined with
                            iron's higher resistance, this is what makes a steel bolt useless
                            without silver plating. You have to count on the silver plating for
                            nearly 100% of the conduction.

                            3. Open end cavity-- A major advantage of closing the cavity end is
                            that its performance will not be affected by nearby conductors-like
                            fingers or the side wall of your overall enclosure.

                            I'm confused by the washer plan. It sounds like it would electrically
                            be part of the center resonator, in which case it does not really form
                            the end of the cavity, so the bolt head itself would also still be
                            part of the resonator.

                            Here's an alternate idea which I once played with but which also
                            requires silver plating so I gave up on it: Use 1/4" diameter aluminum
                            spacers, available at McMaster-Carr in various lengths up to 3" or so,
                            with threaded holes in one or both ends. The threaded holes are for
                            short threaded aluminum rods (which I think they call studs). You can
                            connect long and short ones with the studs to get just about any
                            length you want. You use a stud at the grounded end to secure the
                            thing to the cavity base with a external locking nut (so no threading
                            of the base is required). You use a stud at the open end of the
                            resonator to extend the end point a variable amount for tuning. While
                            the extension stud would have a slightly smaller diameter than the
                            spacer it screws into, I don't think this will have a significant
                            effect for a short length. The adjustable stud is also at the open
                            end of the resonator, which is the high voltage/low current end, so
                            stud resistance is not much of an issue.

                            In fact, the extension stud could be replaced by a short brass screw
                            with fine threads. You then use a spacer with no hole at the open end,
                            drill a small hole and thread it yourself--threading a small hole in
                            aluminum should not be difficult (and unlike threading in the base, it
                            does not have to be perfectly straight). Again, I don't think the fact
                            that the tuning screw has a different diameter makes much difference
                            for a short length.

                            Sam Wetterlin


                            --- In spectrumanalyzer@yahoogroups.com, yahoogroup@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Scotty,
                            >
                            > S> I can't quite visualize what you are suggesting. You
                            > S> sure don't want the bolt head inside the cavity.
                            >
                            > I was picturing a brass bar across the bottom of the
                            > four copper tubes. This bar would have 4, 1/4-20 tapped
                            > holes in it, one for each tube. The tubes would be open
                            > at the other end. Then you could make a bolt with a 1"
                            > diameter top by soldering a washer to the bolt head.
                            > This bolt would go in the open end of the each tube,
                            > and thread into the brass plate. The washer should
                            > close the far end of the tube preventing other RF from
                            > getting in. You could adjust the resonance by turning
                            > the bolt changing the cavity length. The washer would
                            > determine the end of the cavity, so the bolt head would
                            > be on the out side of the cavity.
                            >
                            > S> Even then, Zinc-Plated Steel would suck,
                            > S> electrically. It would have to be silver plated,
                            > S> quite thick at that, due to deep skin effect.
                            >
                            > Deep skin effect you say, I found this one 1/4-20 3"
                            > long shoulder bolt threads are 3/4" to 1" MC# 92941A554
                            > I was hoping for something around 3.5 long, but I think
                            > 3" would be long enough.
                            >
                            > I was also curious how important it is for a good
                            > electrical connection from the center stub to the brass
                            > plat in the bottom. The bolt idea may not make that
                            > connection the way a soldered in tube does. I'm not
                            > sure if this would be an issue or not.
                            >
                            > Any how just thinking.
                            >
                            > Best regards.
                            >
                            > .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
                            > .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-.
                            >
                            > Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT
                            >
                            > e-mail yahoogroup@...
                            > Web page http://jaredharvey.com
                            >
                          • yahoogroup@jaredharvey.com
                            Hello Sam, SW I m confused by the washer plan. It sounds like SW it would electrically be part of the center SW resonator, in which case it does
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 7, 2007
                              Hello Sam,

                              SW> I'm confused by the washer plan. It sounds like
                              SW> it would electrically be part of the center
                              SW> resonator, in which case it does not really form
                              SW> the end of the cavity, so the bolt head itself
                              SW> would also still be part of the resonator.

                              Sounds like I'm still not coming across quite right.
                              I've made a quick sketch. I've attempted to attach it
                              to this message. Lets see if yahoo will allow it.

                              Best regards.

                              .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
                              .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-.

                              Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT

                              e-mail yahoogroup@...
                              Web page http://jaredharvey.com
                            • yahoogroup@jaredharvey.com
                              Hello Sam, SW 1. For the threaded connection use SW electrician s anti-seize compound. Do you mean something like these from McMaster? MC# 9050T2
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 7, 2007
                                Hello Sam,

                                SW> 1. For the threaded connection use
                                SW> electrician's anti-seize compound.

                                Do you mean something like these from McMaster?

                                MC# 9050T2 Electrical Contact Grease $24/8oz

                                MC# 1219K57 Electrically and Thermally Conductive
                                Grease $83/.5oz

                                The 8oz can come as standard, copper, aluminum, or
                                graphite at almost no cost variation.

                                To me it's sounding like I should plan on building
                                Scotty's filter. Once it's working, I can try to
                                modify it to make it slightly easier to build.

                                I didn't follow the aluminum washer idea. Perhaps
                                a quick sketch attached to an e-mail would help
                                explain your design thought.

                                Best regards.

                                .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
                                .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-.

                                Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT

                                e-mail yahoogroup@...
                                Web page http://jaredharvey.com
                              • Sam Wetterlin
                                Jared I think the compounds you found would work. I was thinking of the Home Depot stuff that is probably cheaper. Your sketch did not come through, as far as
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 7, 2007
                                  Jared

                                  I think the compounds you found would work. I was thinking of the
                                  Home Depot stuff that is probably cheaper.

                                  Your sketch did not come through, as far as I can tell.

                                  My aluminum stud/spacer idea was just a way of creating an adjustable
                                  length resonator, in order to have the tuning part of the resonator,
                                  as well as having a way to secure the resonator to the base without
                                  soldering. You can achieve the same tuning effect by using an open
                                  copper tube, soldering a nut on the end, and putting a short screw in
                                  the nut. You probably need an extra jam nut as well, to make the
                                  tuning stable.

                                  All this is of interest only if you want to experiment. If you just
                                  want to build a cavity filter and be done with it, Scotty's is a good
                                  way to go. If you wanted to make a minor modification, the first thing
                                  I would do is secure the grounded coupling loops to a tiny notch in
                                  the bottom of the tubes, per my document on cylindrical filters. This
                                  avoids the need to extend them through the bottom plate, thus avoiding
                                  the need for some relatively precise drilling and alignment.

                                  Sam W.


                                  --- In spectrumanalyzer@yahoogroups.com, yahoogroup@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Sam,
                                  >
                                  > SW> 1. For the threaded connection use
                                  > SW> electrician's anti-seize compound.
                                  >
                                  > Do you mean something like these from McMaster?
                                  >
                                  > MC# 9050T2 Electrical Contact Grease $24/8oz
                                  >
                                  > MC# 1219K57 Electrically and Thermally Conductive
                                  > Grease $83/.5oz
                                  >
                                  > The 8oz can come as standard, copper, aluminum, or
                                  > graphite at almost no cost variation.
                                  >
                                  > To me it's sounding like I should plan on building
                                  > Scotty's filter. Once it's working, I can try to
                                  > modify it to make it slightly easier to build.
                                  >
                                  > I didn't follow the aluminum washer idea. Perhaps
                                  > a quick sketch attached to an e-mail would help
                                  > explain your design thought.
                                  >
                                  > Best regards.
                                  >
                                  > .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ...
                                  > .-.. . - ... / .... .- ...- . / .- / -... . . .-.
                                  >
                                  > Jared Harvey Operator KB1GTT
                                  >
                                  > e-mail yahoogroup@...
                                  > Web page http://jaredharvey.com
                                  >
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