Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [sparrow_ev] Re: Sporpion lost power

Expand Messages
  • Phil Salkie
    Hi, Tom, I m assuming the big red button s not pressed in? Even if it s not pressed in, press it in, count to 30, and pull it back out. That s been known to
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
      Hi, Tom,

      I'm assuming the big red button's not pressed in? Even if it's not
      pressed in, press it in, count to 30, and pull it back out. That's
      been known to help if the 12V supply system has overheated.

      If that's no help:

      Since there's no lights on the e-meter, that's an indication that
      there's no 12V power. That's generated by a Vicor DC-DC converter,
      which has an in-line fuseholder on the 156V wire feeding it. From
      there, the 12V goes to a fuseblock which distributes power to the rest
      of the bird. (At least, that's how a jellybean is - your mileage may
      vary slightly.)

      What the dealer reported may well have been the in-line fuse blowing,
      or it could have been something like the heater fuse. It's odd that
      the 156V fuse feeding the Vicor would blow, though, since that module
      takes about 3 1/2 amps of 156V (at most) to produce about 30 amps of
      12V, and the bird sure shouldn't be using 30 amps of 12V, unless it's
      rolling down both windows at once. It's possible the fuseholder is
      bad, causing the end of the fuse to overheat and then melt the fuse
      element inside the glass tube. (I'm really reaching here...)

      If you're fairly comfortable around electricity, you could open the
      side panel, locate the Vicor DC-DC converter (I think it's mounted on
      the motor controller these days) and meter the 156V going onto the
      input side of the converter. Do that with somebody else manning the
      big red button, so that if you touch something you shouldn't, they can
      press it back in and keep you from getting too hurt. If there's no
      156V, then it's probably that input fuse. If it's there, and there's
      no 12V on the output terminals, then it's the converter. If there's
      12V, then it's a fuse on the fuse block.

      If you're not comfortable with that, I'd suggest waiting for some
      dealer assist - better safe than sorry...

      Hope that's some help,

      Phil Salkie
    • CorbinSparrow@aol.com
      hit the big red button - wait 2-3 min and reset it. that might work peter carpenter vin 76 and 208
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
        hit the big red button - wait 2-3 min and reset it.
        that might work
        peter carpenter
        vin 76 and 208
      • Davide Andrea
        ... I know it s not, because otehrwise Tom wouldn t have been able to charge: the charger would have complained (2-tone beeps). ... Do the battery compartment
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
          --- In sparrow_ev@y..., Phil Salkie <phil@h...> wrote:
          > I'm assuming the big red button's not pressed in?

          I know it's not, because otehrwise Tom wouldn't have been able to
          charge: the charger would have complained (2-tone beeps).

          > I noticed the fans were making a slightly different noise;

          Do the battery compartment fans go off once the battery is charged?

          In general, the battery compartment fans are powered by the DC-DC
          converter. In that case, your DC-DC converter IS working, and the
          problem is probably in the fuse box.

          If, on the other side, your battery compartment fans are powered
          directly by the charger (which is something I suspect Corbin started
          recently, to keep the fans from running all the time when plugegd in),
          then the 12 V circuit may be dead. First turn Off the BRB (Big Red
          Button) for 15 seconds, and turn it back on, and see if that does it.
          If not, follow Phil Salkie's perfect instructions.

          Tom, please call me at (303) 413-1500 from a portable phone, with a
          meter handy, and we can walk thorugh it together.

          Davide
        • Edward Ang
          ... On my Sparrow, if I used a cheater plug , only the charger fan would turn on. The rest of the fans were off (This is sometimes hard to tell. The Sparrow
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
            > > I noticed the fans were making a slightly
            > different noise;
            >
            > Do the battery compartment fans go off once the
            > battery is charged?
            >

            On my Sparrow, if I used a "cheater plug", only the
            charger fan would turn on. The rest of the fans were
            off (This is sometimes hard to tell. The Sparrow
            would just sound a lot quieter). This is because
            Corbin wires the 110V relay between the Line and the
            Ground. The good thing is this wiring would work on
            both 110V and 220V system (the voltage from either
            Lines to ground is still 110V). The BAD thing is that
            it trips GFI's because there are current flowing to
            the ground.

            I have since changed the "Ground" wire at the "Gas
            Tank" from Ground to Neutral. Now, the Fans run even
            with the "cheater plug". I haven't tested it with the
            GFI yet. But, I suspect it won't trip this time
            because Brad Parker confirmed this in message #3931.

            > If, on the other side, your battery compartment fans
            > are powered
            > directly by the charger (which is something I

            On newer Sparrows, I think the fans are still power by
            the 12V DC-DC. However, Corbin has replaced (or put
            it in series) the 110V relay with the built in "finish
            charge" relay on the charger. This can be clearly
            seen on Brian's photo "220 Setup 04.jpg" on FreeDrive.
            The relay connectors are right next to the battery
            connector. This relay opens at the end of charging
            thus turns the fans off. This is mentioned on the
            charger manual.

            Hope this helps.

            Ed Ang


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
            http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
          • tom.morrow@oracle.com
            ... Correct. I did try to push it in and then pull it out, but I only waited a second or so with it pushed in, so I ll definitely try pushing it in for a few
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
              Hey thanks for the advice guys. Some answers to the questions:

              > I'm assuming the big red button's not pressed in?

              Correct. I did try to push it in and then pull it out, but I only
              waited a second or so with it pushed in, so I'll definitely try
              pushing it in for a few minutes and give it another go when I get
              home tonight.

              > Do the battery compartment fans go off once the battery is charged?

              I'm not completely sure... when I woke up this morning after
              plugging the car in last night, the fans were not as loud as I had
              remembered in the past, so perhaps some of the fans shut down and
              others continued running? I'll look into this a bit more when I get
              it running because I'm curious!


              So my plans for when I get home are:

              1. Push the Big Red for a few minutes, pull it out, and try again.
              2. Find the fuse to the DC-DC converter and see if that is still good
              and seated properly.

              3. Poke around in the regular fusebox and see if there are any blown
              fuses.

              Thanks folks!

              -Tom
            • Davide Andrea
              Ah, very instructive, thank you. Davide
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
                Ah, very instructive, thank you.

                Davide

                --- In sparrow_ev@y..., Edward Ang <EdAng@m...> wrote:
                > On my Sparrow, if I used a "cheater plug", only the
                > charger fan would turn on. The rest of the fans were
                > off (This is sometimes hard to tell. The Sparrow
                > would just sound a lot quieter). This is because
                > Corbin wires the 110V relay between the Line and the
                > Ground. The good thing is this wiring would work on
                > both 110V and 220V system (the voltage from either
                > Lines to ground is still 110V). The BAD thing is that
                > it trips GFI's because there are current flowing to
                > the ground.
                >
                > I have since changed the "Ground" wire at the "Gas
                > Tank" from Ground to Neutral. Now, the Fans run even
                > with the "cheater plug". I haven't tested it with the
                > GFI yet. But, I suspect it won't trip this time
                > because Brad Parker confirmed this in message #3931.
                >
                > > If, on the other side, your battery compartment fans
                > > are powered
                > > directly by the charger (which is something I
                >
                > On newer Sparrows, I think the fans are still power by
                > the 12V DC-DC. However, Corbin has replaced (or put
                > it in series) the 110V relay with the built in "finish
                > charge" relay on the charger. This can be clearly
                > seen on Brian's photo "220 Setup 04.jpg" on FreeDrive.
                > The relay connectors are right next to the battery
                > connector. This relay opens at the end of charging
                > thus turns the fans off. This is mentioned on the
                > charger manual.
                >
                > Hope this helps.
                >
                > Ed Ang
                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
                > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
              • Davide Andrea
                ... Exactly 10 seconds is what it takes to reset the Dc-DC converetr after an overvoltage or overtemperature. So, you only nee3d to wait 15 seconds. ... But of
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
                  --- In sparrow_ev@y..., tom.morrow@o... wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey thanks for the advice guys. Some answers to the questions:
                  >
                  > > I'm assuming the big red button's not pressed in?
                  >
                  > Correct. I did try to push it in and then pull it out, but I only
                  > waited a second or so with it pushed in, so I'll definitely try
                  > pushing it in for a few minutes and give it another go when I get
                  > home tonight.

                  Exactly 10 seconds is what it takes to reset the Dc-DC converetr after
                  an overvoltage or overtemperature. So, you only nee3d to wait 15
                  seconds.


                  > when I woke up this morning after
                  > plugging the car in last night, the fans were not as loud as I had
                  > remembered in the past, so perhaps some of the fans shut down and
                  > others continued running?

                  But of course (duh): you are hearing the charger fan, while the
                  battery compartment fans are Off. I missed that clue in your last e-
                  mail. This, and Ed Ang's explanation, tell me that your 12 V is indeed
                  missing.

                  > So my plans for when I get home are:
                  >
                  > 1. Push the Big Red for a few minutes, pull it out, and try again.

                  If that does it, I may have a very quick fix to avoid the problem in
                  the future. Also, if that does it, I bet you anything that your dealer
                  "fixed" Scorpion when he/she turned off the BRB, and the fuse was OK
                  all along.

                  I'll expect your call in 3 hours. Please call even if the BRG cycling
                  does fix it.

                  Davide
                • tom.morrow@oracle.com
                  Hey, it worked! I pushed the red button in for a few minutes and then when I pulled it out, the E-meter began lighting up. I turned the key on and the whole
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
                    Hey, it worked!

                    I pushed the red button in for a few minutes and then when I pulled it
                    out, the E-meter began lighting up. I turned the key on and the whole
                    car died (all lights out). I pressed the red button in again and took
                    the keys out, waited a few minutes, and then I got it going when I
                    turned the key. But it was really weak; I think the DC-DC converter
                    wasn't putting out enough juice because the light was dim and when I
                    would roll down windows the headlight would dim tremendously and I
                    would hear relays clicking in the back. I pressed the accelerator
                    and I got just a very faint jolt forward but it wouldn't move. I went
                    through a few more cycles of turning it off and then on, and pretty
                    soon the headlight and accessories seemed strong, but it still
                    wouldn't move. By playing around some more, I discovered that if the
                    Forward/Reverse switch is in Forward or Reverse when the car is
                    started, then the car won't move at all. By starting the car with the
                    Forward/Reverse switch in Neutral, everything worked, and I went for a
                    drive!

                    Thanks to everyone who suggested fiddling with the Big Red button and
                    other things!

                    So the moral of the story is when the car won't start:
                    - Push the Big Red in for 15 seconds to several minutes.
                    - Make sure the direction switch is in neutral when starting.
                    - Turn the ignition off and then on, making sure to hold it on the
                    "full start" position for a second or so while the relays click into
                    place.

                    -Tom

                    #149: Sporpion
                  • Davide Andrea
                    ... Did you check for any UFOs overhead? There s still something really screwed up in Sporpion. You shouldn t need to have the car in neutral before starting.
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
                      > I think the DC-DC converter
                      > wasn't putting out enough juice because the light was dim

                      Did you check for any UFOs overhead?

                      There's still something really screwed up in Sporpion. You shouldn't
                      need to have the car in neutral before starting. And the dimming
                      lights bother me .

                      I truly doubt that the Dc-Dc converted is not putting out enough
                      voltage. If the load pulls too much current, the DC-DC converter shuts
                      down long before the voltage drops. Instead, I think that there's some
                      bad contact (for example, the fuse holders), and you're losing voltage
                      across it. That's bad enough, but what's worse is that, wherever that
                      voltage is going, it is getting very hot! So, you need to find it, or
                      it will find you, stranded.

                      What still confuses me is what is making the DC-DC converter shut
                      down. It is protected against:
                      *) Over temperature: 95 °C. Shuts down completely. To restore, remove
                      input power, let cool and, reapply input power.
                      *) Output overcurrent: 33 A nominal. Self restarting after load
                      returns to normal.
                      *) Output overvoltage: 15 V nominal. Shuts down completely. To
                      restore, remove input power and reapply it.

                      Because it's not self restarting, and because I doubt it's
                      overheating, that leaves overvoltage. The only thing that could cause
                      overvoltage, other than the DC-DC converter itself, is an intermittent
                      contact in series with a high inductance (such as the contactors'
                      coils, except that they have flyback diodes on them).

                      So, I don't understand it.

                      Any ideas, other Sparrownauts?

                      Davide

                      --- In sparrow_ev@y..., tom.morrow@o... wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey, it worked!
                      >
                      > I pushed the red button in for a few minutes and then when I pulled it
                      > out, the E-meter began lighting up. I turned the key on and the whole
                      > car died (all lights out). I pressed the red button in again and took
                      > the keys out, waited a few minutes, and then I got it going when I
                      > turned the key. But it was really weak; I think the DC-DC converter
                      > wasn't putting out enough juice because the light was dim and when I
                      > would roll down windows the headlight would dim tremendously and I
                      > would hear relays clicking in the back. I pressed the accelerator
                      > and I got just a very faint jolt forward but it wouldn't move. I went
                      > through a few more cycles of turning it off and then on, and pretty
                      > soon the headlight and accessories seemed strong, but it still
                      > wouldn't move. By playing around some more, I discovered that if the
                      > Forward/Reverse switch is in Forward or Reverse when the car is
                      > started, then the car won't move at all. By starting the car with the
                      > Forward/Reverse switch in Neutral, everything worked, and I went for a
                      > drive!
                      >
                      > Thanks to everyone who suggested fiddling with the Big Red button and
                      > other things!
                      >
                      > So the moral of the story is when the car won't start:
                      > - Push the Big Red in for 15 seconds to several minutes.
                      > - Make sure the direction switch is in neutral when starting.
                      > - Turn the ignition off and then on, making sure to hold it on the
                      > "full start" position for a second or so while the relays click into
                      > place.
                      >
                      > -Tom
                      >
                      > #149: Sporpion
                    • Alan Batie
                      ... The dimming lights is a problem, but the car in neutral is a feature of the Kilovac controllers. I suppose it *is* is a little safer and it is a good
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 2, 2001
                        On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 03:59:07AM -0000, Davide Andrea wrote:
                        > There's still something really screwed up in Sporpion. You shouldn't
                        > need to have the car in neutral before starting. And the dimming
                        > lights bother me .

                        The dimming lights is a problem, but the car in neutral is a "feature"
                        of the Kilovac controllers. I suppose it *is* is a little safer and
                        it is a good habit to be putting it in neutral when parked.

                        --
                        Alan Batie ______ www.rdrop.com/users/alan Me
                        alan@... \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
                        PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
                        27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ www.anti-spam.net NO SPAM!
                      • tom.morrow@oracle.com
                        Well, Sporpion is definitely usable now, but things aren t completely smooth sailing. When I started it up this morning, after plugging it in last night, I
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 3, 2001
                          Well, Sporpion is definitely usable now, but things aren't completely
                          smooth sailing. When I started it up this morning, after plugging it
                          in last night, I had the same problem as before where pressing the
                          accelerator just barely rocked it a little without moving it (and yes
                          the parking brake was off). I turned it off and on a few times and
                          then it worked, but after I had driven about 10 feet it wouldn't
                          accelerate again. I turned it off and on again, and from then on it
                          has worked fine. I drove 6 miles to work and then took it to lunch 4
                          miles each way with no problems. It seems like the problems I have
                          been having have always been in the morning after resting from a full
                          charge. I wonder if something needs to warm up inside it.

                          David's hypothesis of the DC-DC fuse not being seated not quite right
                          and causing resistance sounds like a plausible explanation; perhaps
                          once some heat in the controller compartment builds up it shifts into
                          a full-contact position. I'll have to check that.

                          As usual ideas and suggestions are welcome.

                          Driving it today was really fun!

                          -Tom
                        • Environmental Motors Sales Team
                          Check for loose wires. Sounds like a bad connection some place. Possibly the one of the shunt in the controller compartment. Bolts sometimes vibrate loose.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 4, 2001
                            Check for loose wires. Sounds like a bad connection some place. Possibly
                            the one of the shunt in the controller compartment. Bolts sometimes vibrate
                            loose. Corbin does not use lock washers.
                            Lawrence

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <tom.morrow@...>
                            To: <sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 3:25 PM
                            Subject: [sparrow_ev] Re: Sporpion lost power


                            >
                            > Well, Sporpion is definitely usable now, but things aren't completely
                            > smooth sailing. When I started it up this morning, after plugging it
                            > in last night, I had the same problem as before where pressing the
                            > accelerator just barely rocked it a little without moving it (and yes
                            > the parking brake was off). I turned it off and on a few times and
                            > then it worked, but after I had driven about 10 feet it wouldn't
                            > accelerate again. I turned it off and on again, and from then on it
                            > has worked fine. I drove 6 miles to work and then took it to lunch 4
                            > miles each way with no problems. It seems like the problems I have
                            > been having have always been in the morning after resting from a full
                            > charge. I wonder if something needs to warm up inside it.
                            >
                            > David's hypothesis of the DC-DC fuse not being seated not quite right
                            > and causing resistance sounds like a plausible explanation; perhaps
                            > once some heat in the controller compartment builds up it shifts into
                            > a full-contact position. I'll have to check that.
                            >
                            > As usual ideas and suggestions are welcome.
                            >
                            > Driving it today was really fun!
                            >
                            > -Tom
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > sparrow_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Keith Bierman
                            ... Nor locktite ... is there any reason why fiberglass wouldn t like either (or both) of those technologies?
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 4, 2001
                              Environmental Motors Sales Team wrote:

                              > Check for loose wires. Sounds like a bad connection some place.
                              > Possibly
                              > the one of the shunt in the controller compartment. Bolts
                              > sometimes vibrate
                              > loose. Corbin does not use lock washers.
                              > Lawrence

                              Nor locktite ... is there any reason why fiberglass wouldn't like
                              either (or both) of those technologies?
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.