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Anyone have a spare DC-DC converter for sale?

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  • garthware
    After four years sitting in the garage, I finally got my Sparrow #78 back on the road. It drove well for about a week, then the power started cutting out at
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 8, 2008
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      After four years sitting in the garage, I finally got my Sparrow #78
      back on the road.

      It drove well for about a week, then the power started cutting out at
      random times. It's happening every few minutes now. When this
      happens, everything dies, no power anywhere. Pushing in the BRB for a
      few seconds restored power.

      This happened to me a few years ago, and I traced it to the DC-DC
      converter. I replaced one of the two modules with a spare provided
      kindly by Davide Andrea. I think the original or replacement module
      is now failing, causing the cut-out.

      If anyone has a spare Vicor DC-DC converter, I'd be interested in
      buying it. Another DC-DC converter with similar specs and size would
      also work. The Vicor currently in the car is VIM51-EQ, which is 150v
      in, 12v out, 400 watts.

      After I put the car back in service, I noticed the DC-DC voltage was
      only at about 12.1 volts, which caused the contactors to clatter
      sometimes when engaging in forward or reverse. I discovered that the
      cause was a broken resistor string, which was supposed to raise the
      voltage 10%, but wasn't doing anything. If anyone is getting
      clattering in their contators that they can't explain or get rid of,
      try checking the output voltage of the DC-DC converter, and if it's
      low, check the continuity of that resistor string. BTW, the resistor
      string is a short loop of wire and probably tape or shrink-wrap
      tubing between the third and fourth metal tab on the low-voltage side
      of the DC-DC converter.
    • Clarence Tan
      Hi, I do not have an extra DC-DC convertor but I want to highlight something you mention about the output from the DC-DC. When I was working on Jim s vehicle
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 10, 2008
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        Hi,

        I do not have an extra DC-DC convertor but I want to highlight
        something you mention about the output from the DC-DC.

        When I was working on Jim's vehicle (128), the output was 12 volt and
        it didnt go beyond 12.3V. When the windows jammed, the most you get a
        drop of about 0.5V. I dont seem to find the resistor ring too.

        The Kilovac contactors will actually work above 10V, the clattering
        should be something else.


        Regards
        Clarence



        On Nov 9, 2008, at 6:09 AM, garthware wrote:

        > After four years sitting in the garage, I finally got my Sparrow #78
        > back on the road.
        >
        > It drove well for about a week, then the power started cutting out at
        > random times. It's happening every few minutes now. When this
        > happens, everything dies, no power anywhere. Pushing in the BRB for a
        > few seconds restored power.
        >
        > This happened to me a few years ago, and I traced it to the DC-DC
        > converter. I replaced one of the two modules with a spare provided
        > kindly by Davide Andrea. I think the original or replacement module
        > is now failing, causing the cut-out.
        >
        > If anyone has a spare Vicor DC-DC converter, I'd be interested in
        > buying it. Another DC-DC converter with similar specs and size would
        > also work. The Vicor currently in the car is VIM51-EQ, which is 150v
        > in, 12v out, 400 watts.
        >
        > After I put the car back in service, I noticed the DC-DC voltage was
        > only at about 12.1 volts, which caused the contactors to clatter
        > sometimes when engaging in forward or reverse. I discovered that the
        > cause was a broken resistor string, which was supposed to raise the
        > voltage 10%, but wasn't doing anything. If anyone is getting
        > clattering in their contators that they can't explain or get rid of,
        > try checking the output voltage of the DC-DC converter, and if it's
        > low, check the continuity of that resistor string. BTW, the resistor
        > string is a short loop of wire and probably tape or shrink-wrap
        > tubing between the third and fourth metal tab on the low-voltage side
        > of the DC-DC converter.
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • garthware
        Ron Anderson of Black Sheep Technology has offered to sell me one of his spares. Thanks a bunch, Ron! Garth vin #78
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 11, 2008
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          Ron Anderson of Black Sheep Technology has offered to sell me one of
          his spares. Thanks a bunch, Ron!

          Garth
          vin #78

          --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, "garthware" <garth@...> wrote:
          >
          > If anyone has a spare Vicor DC-DC converter, I'd be interested in
          > buying it. Another DC-DC converter with similar specs and size would
          > also work. The Vicor currently in the car is VIM51-EQ, which is 150v
          > in, 12v out, 400 watts.
        • garthware
          ... and ... a ... clattering ... My experience has been different, but then every Sparrow is a little different, so maybe that s not so surprising. On my car,
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 11, 2008
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            --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, Clarence Tan <clarence@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I do not have an extra DC-DC convertor but I want to highlight
            > something you mention about the output from the DC-DC.
            >
            > When I was working on Jim's vehicle (128), the output was 12 volt
            and
            > it didnt go beyond 12.3V. When the windows jammed, the most you get
            a
            > drop of about 0.5V. I dont seem to find the resistor ring too.
            >
            > The Kilovac contactors will actually work above 10V, the
            clattering
            > should be something else.
            >
            >
            > Regards
            > Clarence


            My experience has been different, but then every Sparrow is a little
            different, so maybe that's not so surprising. On my car, whenever the
            voltage is too low, I get clattering. Could be it's a combination of
            factors, like maybe my contacts on the contactor are somewhat pitted,
            so it takes a higher voltage to keep them closed.

            Garth
            vin #78
          • Clarence Tan
            Hello, The contactors can take 200V and over 1 million cycles of use. But if the voltage drops to where the contactors cannot hold somewhere 9.5V then it
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 11, 2008
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              Hello,

              The contactors can take 200V and over 1 million cycles of use. But if
              the voltage drops to where the contactors cannot hold somewhere 9.5V
              then it should start chattering. I agree in this case its a
              combination of things happening together or one after another.

              Regards
              Clarence




              On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:29 AM, garthware wrote:

              > --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, Clarence Tan <clarence@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > I do not have an extra DC-DC convertor but I want to highlight
              > > something you mention about the output from the DC-DC.
              > >
              > > When I was working on Jim's vehicle (128), the output was 12 volt
              > and
              > > it didnt go beyond 12.3V. When the windows jammed, the most you get
              > a
              > > drop of about 0.5V. I dont seem to find the resistor ring too.
              > >
              > > The Kilovac contactors will actually work above 10V, the
              > clattering
              > > should be something else.
              > >
              > >
              > > Regards
              > > Clarence
              >
              > My experience has been different, but then every Sparrow is a little
              > different, so maybe that's not so surprising. On my car, whenever the
              > voltage is too low, I get clattering. Could be it's a combination of
              > factors, like maybe my contacts on the contactor are somewhat pitted,
              > so it takes a higher voltage to keep them closed.
              >
              > Garth
              > vin #78
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Richard Clester
              FYI... I have seen two instances where the DC/DC Converter was the cause of the chattering contactors.  In both cases, we had to get new Converters.  In
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 11, 2008
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                FYI...
                I have seen two instances where the DC/DC Converter was the cause of the chattering contactors.  In both cases, we had to get new Converters.  In fact, in four years of working on them... it's the only reason we've ever had for chattering contactors.
                Rick

                --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Clarence Tan <clarence@...> wrote:

                From: Clarence Tan <clarence@...>
                Subject: Re: [sparrow_ev] Re: Anyone have a spare DC-DC converter for sale?
                To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 12:44 PM






                Hello,

                The contactors can take 200V and over 1 million cycles of use. But if
                the voltage drops to where the contactors cannot hold somewhere 9.5V
                then it should start chattering. I agree in this case its a
                combination of things happening together or one after another.

                Regards
                Clarence

                On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:29 AM, garthware wrote:

                > --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogro ups.com, Clarence Tan <clarence@.. .> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi,
                > >
                > > I do not have an extra DC-DC convertor but I want to highlight
                > > something you mention about the output from the DC-DC.
                > >
                > > When I was working on Jim's vehicle (128), the output was 12 volt
                > and
                > > it didnt go beyond 12.3V. When the windows jammed, the most you get
                > a
                > > drop of about 0.5V. I dont seem to find the resistor ring too.
                > >
                > > The Kilovac contactors will actually work above 10V, the
                > clattering
                > > should be something else.
                > >
                > >
                > > Regards
                > > Clarence
                >
                > My experience has been different, but then every Sparrow is a little
                > different, so maybe that's not so surprising. On my car, whenever the
                > voltage is too low, I get clattering. Could be it's a combination of
                > factors, like maybe my contacts on the contactor are somewhat pitted,
                > so it takes a higher voltage to keep them closed.
                >
                > Garth
                > vin #78
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Clarence Tan
                Dear Rick, Do you suggest we change the one on Jim s if we were to change to a new controller ?? Clarence ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 11, 2008
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                  Dear Rick,

                  Do you suggest we change the one on Jim's if we were to change to a
                  new controller ??

                  Clarence



                  On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:16 AM, Richard Clester wrote:

                  > FYI...
                  > I have seen two instances where the DC/DC Converter was the cause of
                  > the chattering contactors. In both cases, we had to get new
                  > Converters. In fact, in four years of working on them... it's the
                  > only reason we've ever had for chattering contactors.
                  > Rick
                  >
                  > --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Clarence Tan <clarence@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Clarence Tan <clarence@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [sparrow_ev] Re: Anyone have a spare DC-DC converter
                  > for sale?
                  > To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 12:44 PM
                  >
                  > Hello,
                  >
                  > The contactors can take 200V and over 1 million cycles of use. But if
                  > the voltage drops to where the contactors cannot hold somewhere 9.5V
                  > then it should start chattering. I agree in this case its a
                  > combination of things happening together or one after another.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > Clarence
                  >
                  > On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:29 AM, garthware wrote:
                  >
                  > > --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogro ups.com, Clarence Tan <clarence@.. .>
                  > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi,
                  > > >
                  > > > I do not have an extra DC-DC convertor but I want to highlight
                  > > > something you mention about the output from the DC-DC.
                  > > >
                  > > > When I was working on Jim's vehicle (128), the output was 12 volt
                  > > and
                  > > > it didnt go beyond 12.3V. When the windows jammed, the most you
                  > get
                  > > a
                  > > > drop of about 0.5V. I dont seem to find the resistor ring too.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Kilovac contactors will actually work above 10V, the
                  > > clattering
                  > > > should be something else.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Regards
                  > > > Clarence
                  > >
                  > > My experience has been different, but then every Sparrow is a little
                  > > different, so maybe that's not so surprising. On my car, whenever
                  > the
                  > > voltage is too low, I get clattering. Could be it's a combination of
                  > > factors, like maybe my contacts on the contactor are somewhat
                  > pitted,
                  > > so it takes a higher voltage to keep them closed.
                  > >
                  > > Garth
                  > > vin #78
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Richard Clester
                  The only reason to change one is if the voltage is not sufficient enough to keep everything where it needs to be.  We ve actually had a Zilla NmG run with
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 12, 2008
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                    The only reason to change one is if the voltage is not sufficient enough to keep everything where it needs to be.  We've actually had a Zilla NmG run with just an Astrodyne 350 watt dc/dc convertor with no trouble.... as long as you don't roll both windows down simultaneously while running the radio, windshield wipers and heater all at once!!!  You'll just need to be a little conservative on the accessories... and things should be fine.
                    Rick

                    --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Clarence Tan <clarence@...> wrote:

                    From: Clarence Tan <clarence@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sparrow_ev] Re: Anyone have a spare DC-DC converter for sale?
                    To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 9:37 PM






                    Dear Rick,

                    Do you suggest we change the one on Jim's if we were to change to a
                    new controller ??

                    Clarence

                    On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:16 AM, Richard Clester wrote:

                    > FYI...
                    > I have seen two instances where the DC/DC Converter was the cause of
                    > the chattering contactors. In both cases, we had to get new
                    > Converters. In fact, in four years of working on them... it's the
                    > only reason we've ever had for chattering contactors.
                    > Rick
                    >
                    > --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Clarence Tan <clarence@amainobj. com> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Clarence Tan <clarence@amainobj. com>
                    > Subject: Re: [sparrow_ev] Re: Anyone have a spare DC-DC converter
                    > for sale?
                    > To: sparrow_ev@yahoogro ups.com
                    > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 12:44 PM
                    >
                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > The contactors can take 200V and over 1 million cycles of use. But if
                    > the voltage drops to where the contactors cannot hold somewhere 9.5V
                    > then it should start chattering. I agree in this case its a
                    > combination of things happening together or one after another.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > Clarence
                    >
                    > On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:29 AM, garthware wrote:
                    >
                    > > --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogro ups.com, Clarence Tan <clarence@.. .>
                    > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi,
                    > > >
                    > > > I do not have an extra DC-DC convertor but I want to highlight
                    > > > something you mention about the output from the DC-DC.
                    > > >
                    > > > When I was working on Jim's vehicle (128), the output was 12 volt
                    > > and
                    > > > it didnt go beyond 12.3V. When the windows jammed, the most you
                    > get
                    > > a
                    > > > drop of about 0.5V. I dont seem to find the resistor ring too.
                    > > >
                    > > > The Kilovac contactors will actually work above 10V, the
                    > > clattering
                    > > > should be something else.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Regards
                    > > > Clarence
                    > >
                    > > My experience has been different, but then every Sparrow is a little
                    > > different, so maybe that's not so surprising. On my car, whenever
                    > the
                    > > voltage is too low, I get clattering. Could be it's a combination of
                    > > factors, like maybe my contacts on the contactor are somewhat
                    > pitted,
                    > > so it takes a higher voltage to keep them closed.
                    > >
                    > > Garth
                    > > vin #78
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jakeoshins
                    Your perspective makes me chuckle a little bit, Rick. The reason that a Sparrow works well for me is that it is legally a motorcycle and able to deal with the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 12, 2008
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                      Your perspective makes me chuckle a little bit, Rick.

                      The reason that a Sparrow works well for me is that it is legally
                      a motorcycle and able to deal with the weather in Seattle. So,
                      for more than six months of the year, you can bet that I'm driving
                      along with the heater, the windshield wiper and the radio on.
                      Those are required for commuting. I need to roll windows up and
                      down, too.

                      The only thing I really don't need is both windows simultaneously.
                      But since my knees hit the window buttons pretty frequently, even
                      that is a little worrisome.

                      With all that said, I've long known that the DC-DC in my Sparrow
                      is essentially undersized for the job. I suspect that the most
                      cost-effective solution is a smaller DC-DC and a small battery for
                      the 12V subsystem.

                      - Jake Oshins
                      #220


                      --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, Richard Clester
                      <ndullgent1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The only reason to change one is if the voltage is not
                      sufficient enough to keep everything where it needs to be.  We've
                      actually had a Zilla NmG run with just an Astrodyne 350 watt dc/dc
                      convertor with no trouble.... as long as you don't roll both
                      windows down simultaneously while running the radio, windshield
                      wipers and heater all at once!!!  You'll just need to be a little
                      conservative on the accessories... and things should be fine.
                      > Rick
                      >
                    • Richard Clester
                      Now that I look at what I wrote... I m chuckling... The NmG is not just using the Vicor.  We are now using two dc/dc converters and a small back-up battery. 
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 13, 2008
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                        Now that I look at what I wrote... I'm chuckling...
                        The NmG is not just using the Vicor.  We are now using two dc/dc converters and a small back-up battery.  (7.2Ahr 12 volt that is charged by the Astrodyne Converter)
                         
                        We were concerned with putting a vehicle out in the public that didn't have the ability to light up emergency flashers if the DC/DC Converter failed. Most all Sparrows are in that predicament... not too safe...especially at night.
                         
                        That challenge, coupled with the 12Volt requirements of the Zilla Controller, forced us to not allow the possibility of a voltage sag if in the bizarre event that someone would simultaneously roll down both windows while everything was running.  The vehicle would just "Shut down" giving an error code in the Hairball of the Zilla and then folks would be stuck in the middle of traffic... if this happened while sitting at a light. (It happened to me...embarassing!)...  We have now solved that...  but when the Vicor begins to sag... we're seeing the chattering contactors and an occaisional cut-out on the controller.
                         
                        I believe there have been others that just walked away from the converter and found a way to install and charge a 14th stand alone battery.  Not a bad idea... less costly than a Vicor...
                        Rick

                        --- On Wed, 11/12/08, jakeoshins <jake@...> wrote:

                        From: jakeoshins <jake@...>
                        Subject: [sparrow_ev] Re: Anyone have a spare DC-DC converter for sale?
                        To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:54 PM






                        Your perspective makes me chuckle a little bit, Rick.

                        The reason that a Sparrow works well for me is that it is legally
                        a motorcycle and able to deal with the weather in Seattle. So,
                        for more than six months of the year, you can bet that I'm driving
                        along with the heater, the windshield wiper and the radio on.
                        Those are required for commuting. I need to roll windows up and
                        down, too.

                        The only thing I really don't need is both windows simultaneously.
                        But since my knees hit the window buttons pretty frequently, even
                        that is a little worrisome.

                        With all that said, I've long known that the DC-DC in my Sparrow
                        is essentially undersized for the job. I suspect that the most
                        cost-effective solution is a smaller DC-DC and a small battery for
                        the 12V subsystem.

                        - Jake Oshins
                        #220

                        --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogro ups.com, Richard Clester
                        <ndullgent1@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The only reason to change one is if the voltage is not
                        sufficient enough to keep everything where it needs to be.  We've
                        actually had a Zilla NmG run with just an Astrodyne 350 watt dc/dc
                        convertor with no trouble.... as long as you don't roll both
                        windows down simultaneously while running the radio, windshield
                        wipers and heater all at once!!!  You'll just need to be a little
                        conservative on the accessories. .. and things should be fine.
                        > Rick
                        >















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jakeoshins
                        Actually, I believe that a 14th 12V lead-acid battery alone isn t sufficient. Such a battery will sag below 12.5V pretty frequently especially if you re stuck
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 13, 2008
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                          Actually, I believe that a 14th 12V lead-acid battery alone isn't
                          sufficient. Such a battery will sag below 12.5V pretty frequently
                          especially if you're stuck in traffic for a while. It's much better
                          to use a DC-DC to make sure that voltage stays above 13.5V, for
                          bright lights, good contactor action, etc. Then, for emergency
                          backup and for when you need sudden large draws of current (as when
                          you roll down both windows with the windshield wiper on) the battery
                          can supply it.

                          In practice, this usually works out well, as you can charge the
                          accessory battery with the DC-DC converter. Of course, doing this
                          requires some care. The usual successful approach is to use a DC-DC
                          that can be trimmed up or down a little in voltage. Then, when the
                          car is running, you trim the voltage up to 14.5V or so. This makes
                          the lights brighter and it gives the accessory battery a good
                          charge. When the car is parked, you trim the voltage down to 13.2V
                          or so. This keeps the accessory battery topped up without causing it
                          to gas and die.

                          What doesn't work out so well is carrying around a separate battery
                          charger for the accessory battery and only plugging it in when you're
                          parked.

                          - Jake Oshins
                          #220

                          P.S. Rick, I know that you know all of this. I'm mostly writing for
                          the crowd.



                          --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, Richard Clester <ndullgent1@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Now that I look at what I wrote... I'm chuckling...
                          > The NmG is not just using the Vicor.  We are now using two dc/dc
                          converters and a small back-up battery.  (7.2Ahr 12 volt that is
                          charged by the Astrodyne Converter)
                          >  
                          > We were concerned with putting a vehicle out in the public that
                          didn't have the ability to light up emergency flashers if the DC/DC
                          Converter failed. Most all Sparrows are in that predicament... not
                          too safe...especially at night.
                          >  
                          > That challenge, coupled with the 12Volt requirements of the Zilla
                          Controller, forced us to not allow the possibility of a voltage sag
                          if in the bizarre event that someone would simultaneously roll down
                          both windows while everything was running.  The vehicle would
                          just "Shut down" giving an error code in the Hairball of the Zilla
                          and then folks would be stuck in the middle of traffic... if this
                          happened while sitting at a light. (It happened to
                          me...embarassing!)...  We have now solved that...  but when the Vicor
                          begins to sag... we're seeing the chattering contactors and an
                          occaisional cut-out on the controller.
                          >  
                          > I believe there have been others that just walked away from the
                          converter and found a way to install and charge a 14th stand alone
                          battery.  Not a bad idea... less costly than a Vicor...
                          > Rick
                          >
                          > --- On Wed, 11/12/08, jakeoshins <jake@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: jakeoshins <jake@...>
                          > Subject: [sparrow_ev] Re: Anyone have a spare DC-DC converter for
                          sale?
                          > To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:54 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your perspective makes me chuckle a little bit, Rick.
                          >
                          > The reason that a Sparrow works well for me is that it is legally
                          > a motorcycle and able to deal with the weather in Seattle. So,
                          > for more than six months of the year, you can bet that I'm driving
                          > along with the heater, the windshield wiper and the radio on.
                          > Those are required for commuting. I need to roll windows up and
                          > down, too.
                          >
                          > The only thing I really don't need is both windows simultaneously.
                          > But since my knees hit the window buttons pretty frequently, even
                          > that is a little worrisome.
                          >
                          > With all that said, I've long known that the DC-DC in my Sparrow
                          > is essentially undersized for the job. I suspect that the most
                          > cost-effective solution is a smaller DC-DC and a small battery for
                          > the 12V subsystem.
                          >
                          > - Jake Oshins
                          > #220
                          >
                          > --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogro ups.com, Richard Clester
                          > <ndullgent1@ ...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The only reason to change one is if the voltage is not
                          > sufficient enough to keep everything where it needs to be.  We've
                          > actually had a Zilla NmG run with just an Astrodyne 350 watt dc/dc
                          > convertor with no trouble.... as long as you don't roll both
                          > windows down simultaneously while running the radio, windshield
                          > wipers and heater all at once!!!  You'll just need to be a little
                          > conservative on the accessories. .. and things should be fine.
                          > > Rick
                          > >
                        • Ruben F. Arevalo
                          Please help me diagnosis this problem. My sparrows window haven t been a problem for the last 7 years. Today, I pull into work and both windows will not roll
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 13, 2008
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                            Please help me diagnosis this problem.

                            My sparrows window haven't been a problem for the last 7 years. Today, I
                            pull into work and both windows will not roll up. A quick look at
                            things tells me that the fuses for each window are not blown. All other
                            12V accessories work properly such as lights, radio, fan, instruments,
                            windshield wiper, etc. Yet, the both windows sit there completely dead
                            and nothing happens when I press each electric window switch. I powered
                            down with the BRB on my pizza butt (#162 with Curtis controller,
                            de-fanged) and powered up again. Windows are still dead. Everything else
                            works fine.

                            What commonality is there between both windows that would cause them to
                            fail?
                            Do they share a wiring harness or microchip somewhere?
                            Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?

                            Ruben F. Arevalo
                            rfarevaloATucdavis.edu
                          • Davide Andrea
                            ... Is it Vista or XP? ... Please see: http://enviromotors.com/wiki/index.php/Sparrow/Schematics for schematics. D de
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 13, 2008
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                              > Suddenly Windows won't roll-up

                              Is it Vista or XP?

                              > Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?

                              Please see:
                              http://enviromotors.com/wiki/index.php/Sparrow/Schematics
                              for schematics.

                              D'de

                              Ruben F. Arevalo wrote:
                              > Please help me diagnosis this problem.
                              >
                              > My sparrows window haven't been a problem for the last 7 years. Today, I
                              > pull into work and both windows will not roll up. A quick look at
                              > things tells me that the fuses for each window are not blown. All other
                              > 12V accessories work properly such as lights, radio, fan, instruments,
                              > windshield wiper, etc. Yet, the both windows sit there completely dead
                              > and nothing happens when I press each electric window switch. I powered
                              > down with the BRB on my pizza butt (#162 with Curtis controller,
                              > de-fanged) and powered up again. Windows are still dead. Everything else
                              > works fine.
                              >
                              > What commonality is there between both windows that would cause them to
                              > fail?
                              > Do they share a wiring harness or microchip somewhere?
                              > Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?
                              >
                              > Ruben F. Arevalo
                              > rfarevaloATucdavis.edu
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              >
                              > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                              > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1785 - Release Date: 11/13/2008 9:12 AM
                              >
                            • wayne
                              I,m having this problem, any suggestions????
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                I,m having this problem, any suggestions????

                                --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Ruben F. Arevalo" <rfarevalo@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Please help me diagnosis this problem.
                                >
                                > My sparrows window haven't been a problem for the last 7 years. Today, I
                                > pull into work and both windows will not roll up. A quick look at
                                > things tells me that the fuses for each window are not blown. All other
                                > 12V accessories work properly such as lights, radio, fan, instruments,
                                > windshield wiper, etc. Yet, the both windows sit there completely dead
                                > and nothing happens when I press each electric window switch. I powered
                                > down with the BRB on my pizza butt (#162 with Curtis controller,
                                > de-fanged) and powered up again. Windows are still dead. Everything else
                                > works fine.
                                >
                                > What commonality is there between both windows that would cause them to
                                > fail?
                                > Do they share a wiring harness or microchip somewhere?
                                > Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?
                                >
                                > Ruben F. Arevalo
                                > rfarevaloATucdavis.edu
                                >
                              • davide
                                ... There isn t anything in common with the 2 windows, that would not also affect other devices. For example, if the windshield wiper works, then the VI 12 V
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                  > Today, ... both windows will not roll up. A quick look at
                                  > > things tells me that the fuses for each window are not blown.
                                  > > What commonality is there between both windows that would cause them to
                                  > > fail?
                                  > > Do they share a wiring harness or microchip somewhere?

                                  There isn't anything in common with the 2 windows, that would not also
                                  affect other devices. For example, if the windshield wiper works, then
                                  the VI 12 V line is OK. The two window motors use separate fuses from
                                  that VI line, and use ground returns at very different locations. So,
                                  using logic, I cannot point you to any particular, single cause. For
                                  however unlikely, it must have been a coincidence that both windows
                                  stopped working at the same time.
                                  My first suspicion would be the really crappy fuse holder. Try playing
                                  with the blades of the fuseholder for the window fuses, to make sure
                                  they make contact.
                                  Otherwise, I am with James: it could be the switches.

                                  > Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?

                                  On the door, look for the 2 wires near the hinge, in a black corrugated
                                  split loom. There are spade connectors there (quick connect). Disconnect
                                  them.
                                  With the ignition on, see if you see 12 V there. If so, the problem
                                  could be inside the door (but it could also be a very high resistance in
                                  series, which will make the 12 V appear when not moving the window, but
                                  drop away when you try to operate it). If not, then measure between each
                                  one of those wires and ground and 12 V (at the cigarette lighter). Based
                                  on what you find, the problem would be either in the ground or the 12 V
                                  line.

                                  Keep the schematic handy:
                                  http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/sparrow_ev/files/Service/

                                  Davide
                                  Zark VIN 28




                                  > >
                                  > > Ruben F. Arevalo
                                  > > rfarevaloATucdavis.edu
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  > Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2939 - Release Date: 06/15/10 06:35:00
                                  >
                                • wayne
                                  I connected a 12 volt battery to the two wires coming out the edge of the door, at the connector. I was able to operate the window. It must be somewhere in the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                    I connected a 12 volt battery to the two wires coming out the edge of the door, at the connector. I was able to operate the window. It must be somewhere in the wiring before the connector point. Guess I will need to track it down. Is there any relays? The fuses are intact. Thanks, Wayne
                                    --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, davide <web@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Today, ... both windows will not roll up. A quick look at
                                    > > > things tells me that the fuses for each window are not blown.
                                    > > > What commonality is there between both windows that would cause them to
                                    > > > fail?
                                    > > > Do they share a wiring harness or microchip somewhere?
                                    >
                                    > There isn't anything in common with the 2 windows, that would not also
                                    > affect other devices. For example, if the windshield wiper works, then
                                    > the VI 12 V line is OK. The two window motors use separate fuses from
                                    > that VI line, and use ground returns at very different locations. So,
                                    > using logic, I cannot point you to any particular, single cause. For
                                    > however unlikely, it must have been a coincidence that both windows
                                    > stopped working at the same time.
                                    > My first suspicion would be the really crappy fuse holder. Try playing
                                    > with the blades of the fuseholder for the window fuses, to make sure
                                    > they make contact.
                                    > Otherwise, I am with James: it could be the switches.
                                    >
                                    > > Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?
                                    >
                                    > On the door, look for the 2 wires near the hinge, in a black corrugated
                                    > split loom. There are spade connectors there (quick connect). Disconnect
                                    > them.
                                    > With the ignition on, see if you see 12 V there. If so, the problem
                                    > could be inside the door (but it could also be a very high resistance in
                                    > series, which will make the 12 V appear when not moving the window, but
                                    > drop away when you try to operate it). If not, then measure between each
                                    > one of those wires and ground and 12 V (at the cigarette lighter). Based
                                    > on what you find, the problem would be either in the ground or the 12 V
                                    > line.
                                    >
                                    > Keep the schematic handy:
                                    > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/sparrow_ev/files/Service/
                                    >
                                    > Davide
                                    > Zark VIN 28
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Ruben F. Arevalo
                                    > > > rfarevaloATucdavis.edu
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    > > Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2939 - Release Date: 06/15/10 06:35:00
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • davide
                                    ... No. ... As I said, it s not the fuses. If anything, it s the fuse-holders. ... the 12 V line. Thanks, Davide Thanks, Wayne
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                      On 6/15/2010 1:18 PM, wayne wrote:
                                      > [Are] there any relays?

                                      No.

                                      > The fuses are intact.

                                      As I said, it's not the fuses. If anything, it's the fuse-holders.

                                      Please do the test I asked you to do, and report back:
                                      >... measure between each
                                      > one of those wires and ground and 12 V (at the cigarette lighter).
                                      > Based on what you find, the problem would be either in the ground or
                                      the 12 V line.

                                      Thanks,
                                      Davide

                                      Thanks, Wayne
                                      > --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sparrow_ev%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > davide <web@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > Today, ... both windows will not roll up. A quick look at
                                      > > > > things tells me that the fuses for each window are not blown.
                                      > > > > What commonality is there between both windows that would cause
                                      > them to
                                      > > > > fail?
                                      > > > > Do they share a wiring harness or microchip somewhere?
                                      > >
                                      > > There isn't anything in common with the 2 windows, that would not also
                                      > > affect other devices. For example, if the windshield wiper works, then
                                      > > the VI 12 V line is OK. The two window motors use separate fuses from
                                      > > that VI line, and use ground returns at very different locations. So,
                                      > > using logic, I cannot point you to any particular, single cause. For
                                      > > however unlikely, it must have been a coincidence that both windows
                                      > > stopped working at the same time.
                                      > > My first suspicion would be the really crappy fuse holder. Try playing
                                      > > with the blades of the fuseholder for the window fuses, to make sure
                                      > > they make contact.
                                      > > Otherwise, I am with James: it could be the switches.
                                      > >
                                      > > > Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?
                                      > >
                                      > > On the door, look for the 2 wires near the hinge, in a black corrugated
                                      > > split loom. There are spade connectors there (quick connect). Disconnect
                                      > > them.
                                      > > With the ignition on, see if you see 12 V there. If so, the problem
                                      > > could be inside the door (but it could also be a very high resistance in
                                      > > series, which will make the 12 V appear when not moving the window, but
                                      > > drop away when you try to operate it). If not, then measure between each
                                      > > one of those wires and ground and 12 V (at the cigarette lighter). Based
                                      > > on what you find, the problem would be either in the ground or the 12 V
                                      > > line.
                                      > >
                                      > > Keep the schematic handy:
                                      > > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/sparrow_ev/files/Service/
                                      > >
                                      > > Davide
                                      > > Zark VIN 28
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Ruben F. Arevalo
                                      > > > > rfarevaloATucdavis.edu
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      > > > Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2939 - Release Date:
                                      > 06/15/10 06:35:00
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      > Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2939 - Release Date: 06/15/10 06:35:00
                                      >
                                    • wayne
                                      Thanks David, you were right, it was the fuse holder. windows back up and running. Wayne
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                        Thanks David, you were right, it was the fuse holder. windows back up and running.

                                        Wayne

                                        --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, davide <web@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On 6/15/2010 1:18 PM, wayne wrote:
                                        > > [Are] there any relays?
                                        >
                                        > No.
                                        >
                                        > > The fuses are intact.
                                        >
                                        > As I said, it's not the fuses. If anything, it's the fuse-holders.
                                        >
                                        > Please do the test I asked you to do, and report back:
                                        > >... measure between each
                                        > > one of those wires and ground and 12 V (at the cigarette lighter).
                                        > > Based on what you find, the problem would be either in the ground or
                                        > the 12 V line.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        > Davide
                                        >
                                        > Thanks, Wayne
                                        > > --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sparrow_ev%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > davide <web@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Today, ... both windows will not roll up. A quick look at
                                        > > > > > things tells me that the fuses for each window are not blown.
                                        > > > > > What commonality is there between both windows that would cause
                                        > > them to
                                        > > > > > fail?
                                        > > > > > Do they share a wiring harness or microchip somewhere?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > There isn't anything in common with the 2 windows, that would not also
                                        > > > affect other devices. For example, if the windshield wiper works, then
                                        > > > the VI 12 V line is OK. The two window motors use separate fuses from
                                        > > > that VI line, and use ground returns at very different locations. So,
                                        > > > using logic, I cannot point you to any particular, single cause. For
                                        > > > however unlikely, it must have been a coincidence that both windows
                                        > > > stopped working at the same time.
                                        > > > My first suspicion would be the really crappy fuse holder. Try playing
                                        > > > with the blades of the fuseholder for the window fuses, to make sure
                                        > > > they make contact.
                                        > > > Otherwise, I am with James: it could be the switches.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Where should I start looking with my multi-meter?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On the door, look for the 2 wires near the hinge, in a black corrugated
                                        > > > split loom. There are spade connectors there (quick connect). Disconnect
                                        > > > them.
                                        > > > With the ignition on, see if you see 12 V there. If so, the problem
                                        > > > could be inside the door (but it could also be a very high resistance in
                                        > > > series, which will make the 12 V appear when not moving the window, but
                                        > > > drop away when you try to operate it). If not, then measure between each
                                        > > > one of those wires and ground and 12 V (at the cigarette lighter). Based
                                        > > > on what you find, the problem would be either in the ground or the 12 V
                                        > > > line.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Keep the schematic handy:
                                        > > > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/sparrow_ev/files/Service/
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Davide
                                        > > > Zark VIN 28
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Ruben F. Arevalo
                                        > > > > > rfarevaloATucdavis.edu
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                        > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        > > > > Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2939 - Release Date:
                                        > > 06/15/10 06:35:00
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                        > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        > > Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2939 - Release Date: 06/15/10 06:35:00
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • davide
                                        ... It s Davide , please. ... Great. Glad to be of help. Davide
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                          > Thanks David,

                                          It's "Davide", please.

                                          > you were right, it was the fuse holder. windows back up
                                          > and running.

                                          Great. Glad to be of help.
                                          Davide
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