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Blasphamy

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  • Kenny Andersen
    OK, New to the group, I ve always kind of like the looks of the Sparrow and the idea of a 1-person commuter car...BUT, I just can t do the electric thing. I m
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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      OK,
      New to the group, I've always kind of like the looks of the Sparrow
      and the idea of a 1-person commuter car...BUT, I just can't do the
      electric thing. I'm an engineer and I have my personal reasons, and
      will share them if anyone wants to here them, but I'm not trying to
      start any controversy or burst anyones bubble. Suffice it to say the
      Electric version of the Sparrow doesn't meet my requirements for a
      vehicle. Now the blasphamous part: Does anyone on the board know of
      a conversion for the Sparrow to make it run with an ICE? or can the
      Sparrow be purchsed in component form less the motor, batteries and
      all other of the electrical bruhaha?

      Secondly, I see there are a couple of Myers folks lurking about. Will
      their new vehicle be electric as well, or will that be a more
      practical ICE'd vehicle. When do they expect some more information to
      come out on that one?

      Than's for letting me share 'part' of the sam vision with you.
    • jbrecher@att.net
      Hey Kenny, Why don t you just go get a HUMMER and forget this future thinking EV stuff. More to the point. There are many options to make small ICE vehicles
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Hey Kenny,
        Why don't you just go get a HUMMER and forget this future thinking EV stuff.
        More to the point. There are many options to make small ICE vehicles out there like the FireAero I built or the Tri-Magnum which are small like our Sparrows and are ICE powered but do well on gas. My FireAero got about 55 per gal.
        Personally, I'm very happy Dana and the other folks at Meyers are "lurking about" here. They keep us informed on developments that may apply to our Sparrows.
        Please don't find one of our Sparrows and turn it into an ICE powered car. Go build a Centurion from plans from R. Riley and have a car that gets 75 MPH with a Diesel or something. If the Sparrow doesn't fit your needs, just move on.
        John
        --



        -------------- Original message from "Kenny Andersen" <anderke@...>: --------------

        OK,
        New to the group, I've always kind of like the looks of the Sparrow
        and the idea of a 1-person commuter car...BUT, I just can't do the
        electric thing. I'm an engineer and I have my personal reasons, and
        will share them if anyone wants to here them, but I'm not trying to
        start any controversy or burst anyones bubble. Suffice it to say the
        Electric version of the Sparrow doesn't meet my requirements for a
        vehicle. Now the blasphamous part: Does anyone on the board know of
        a conversion for the Sparrow to make it run with an ICE? or can the
        Sparrow be purchsed in component form less the motor, batteries and
        all other of the electrical bruhaha?

        Secondly, I see there are a couple of Myers folks lurking about. Will
        their new vehicle be electric as well, or will that be a more
        practical ICE'd vehicle. When do they expect some more information to
        come out on that one?

        Than's for letting me share 'part' of the sam vision with you.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • garytabor2002
        Kenny, I d like to hear your reasons for choosing to ICE a Sparrow. Gary
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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          Kenny,

          I'd like to hear your reasons for choosing to 'ICE' a Sparrow.

          Gary
        • Kenny Andersen
          If you want to be a leading-edger, feel free (the future isn t now). I didn t pay $20K for a plasma TV, and I m willing to wait to get a practical affordable
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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            If you want to be a leading-edger, feel free (the future isn't now).
            I didn't pay $20K for a plasma TV, and I'm willing to wait to get a
            practical affordable electric vehicle. If you find one please let me
            know. With a 40-mile range and an 8-hour re-charge, it just won't
            meet what I need; it's not that I don't like the concept. It's like
            the Prius -- $8K more than a Corolla, but only saves you $200-300 a
            year in gas. You might buy it for altruistic reasons, but not
            financial ones.

            The complexity to convert an existing vehicle is MUCH less than
            building a Tri-Magnum (or other) from scratch (it's a plans built
            vehicle, not from a kit). If someone is already making it, you can't
            afford to build it from scratch (considering time IS money). A small
            ICE'd vehicle would use much less resources than a big gas-guzzler and
            the electricity used to charge a battery-powered vehicle has to come
            from somewhere anyway (most of the US's electricity still comes from
            coal -- anyway, a whole other topic.

            The fact is, I need more range and flexibility than I can get out of
            the present Sparrow configuration and at 500 charges (if it's less
            than half-way drained), with the way I'd use it I'd need batteries
            every two years -- that isn't a good deal for me either, that's why
            I'd prefer an ICE for mine.

            I would prefer not to have to scratch build anything (though I may
            have to). I'm an engineer and can do an entire vehicle from
            conception to completion from scratch; BUT, I know that would be a
            HUGE undertaking, and I don't really want to go there. The problem
            I'm running into is no one is making a small ICE'd vehicle that would
            fit what I'm looking for (I'd be shooting for a minimum of 100 mpg and
            if I scratch built it would be closer to 150 mpg (without getting fancy)).

            I didn't use the word lurking with any negative intent, but I was
            actually hoping to get more information about the other vehicle on
            Meyers website and what kind of drive train they were planning to use
            as well as how the vehicle might be marketed. I personally would like
            to build something from a kit, just for the fun of it. I'm just
            looking for information, not attitude (though I pretty much expected it).

            There is a guy out in San Fran putting a Yamaha 400 cc engine in one
            and with some luck I may be able to hook up with him and see how he
            did it. Rest easy though; in the end it will probably be too
            expensive to modify one anyway. I'm mostly looking for ideas right
            now anyway. Thanks for the response.



            --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, jbrecher@... wrote:
            >
            > Hey Kenny,
            > Why don't you just go get a HUMMER and forget this future thinking
            EV stuff.
            > More to the point. There are many options to make small ICE vehicles
            out there like the FireAero I built or the Tri-Magnum which are small
            like our Sparrows and are ICE powered but do well on gas. My FireAero
            got about 55 per gal.
            > Personally, I'm very happy Dana and the other folks at Meyers are
            "lurking about" here. They keep us informed on developments that may
            apply to our Sparrows.
            > Please don't find one of our Sparrows and turn it into an ICE
            powered car. Go build a Centurion from plans from R. Riley and have a
            car that gets 75 MPH with a Diesel or something. If the Sparrow
            doesn't fit your needs, just move on.
            > John
            > --
            >
            >
            >
          • Drew Fitting
            Hey, Yeah, me too... Ya going on vacation in it? Take Care, Drew
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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              Hey,

              Yeah, me too... Ya going on vacation in it?

              Take Care,
              Drew


              >From: "garytabor2002" <garytabor2002@...>
              >Reply-To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
              >To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [sparrow_ev] Re: Blasph[E]my
              >Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 14:38:57 -0000
              >
              >Kenny,
              >
              >I'd like to hear your reasons for choosing to 'ICE' a Sparrow.
              >
              >Gary
              >
            • Jamie Marshall (GAMES)
              Yes, its been done at least twice. One was posted to the group in the last few months. Search the archives and you should find the links. I think there are
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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                Yes, its been done at least twice. One was posted to the group in the last few months. Search the archives and you should find the links. I think there are even some photos in the photo area.

                Maybe search for "motorcycle engine" or something. Engine in general would be a good search term since it's called a motor when it's electric.

                -Jamie

                ________________________________
                From: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenny Andersen
                Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:33 AM
                To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [sparrow_ev] Blasphamy


                OK,
                New to the group, I've always kind of like the looks of the Sparrow
                and the idea of a 1-person commuter car...BUT, I just can't do the
                electric thing. I'm an engineer and I have my personal reasons, and
                will share them if anyone wants to here them, but I'm not trying to
                start any controversy or burst anyones bubble. Suffice it to say the
                Electric version of the Sparrow doesn't meet my requirements for a
                vehicle. Now the blasphamous part: Does anyone on the board know of
                a conversion for the Sparrow to make it run with an ICE? or can the
                Sparrow be purchsed in component form less the motor, batteries and
                all other of the electrical bruhaha?

                Secondly, I see there are a couple of Myers folks lurking about. Will
                their new vehicle be electric as well, or will that be a more
                practical ICE'd vehicle. When do they expect some more information to
                come out on that one?

                Than's for letting me share 'part' of the sam vision with you.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kenny Andersen
                Warning – I am opinionated Range: I drive 42 miles one-way to work. My job requires me to be free-lance-like and some sometimes I drive a bit less, but I
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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                  Warning – I am opinionated

                  Range:
                  I drive 42 miles one-way to work. My job requires me to be
                  free-lance-like and some sometimes I drive a bit less, but I can't
                  afford to not have the distance flexibility.

                  Maintenance (batteries):
                  To make the batteries last, you shouldn't drain them more than about
                  halfway down each time (according to the Myers website, deep cycling
                  them down each time can reduce the life to around 300 charges, whereas
                  not draining them down to less than 50% results in a 500 charge cycle
                  battery lifetime). The way I use it, I'd be replacing batteries every
                  couple of years. Perhaps there have been other maintenance issues
                  with the Sparrow electrical system.

                  Cost:
                  The electric drive train is actually much more expensive the say a
                  scooter drive train (which is available in 250 cc to 500+ cc sizes --
                  modern ones producing little pollution, at least much less than some
                  big beater, or even an economy car (old scooter drive trains used to
                  produce a lot of pollution it is true, but that is no longer the case
                  for anything over 50 cc)). I can find newer used scooter drive trains
                  for much less than the electrical, which are hard to find used because
                  they are so application specific. When considering how to do a
                  scratch-built car, I found that the electrical controllers and systems
                  were quite expensive -- this drives up the 'retail' or finished price
                  of the vehicle substantially. Also, see above on battery maintenance.
                  With a Honda scooter drive train it would be gas [a little] and go.
                  They are very reliable and go thousands of miles before a rebuild is
                  required.

                  Serviceability:
                  I can do everything with a scooter drive train and the electrical
                  stuff on them is relatively simple (maybe this is just my perception,
                  but what I don't have to learn extra is a good thing).

                  A/C:
                  I'm in Texas. The only way a vehicle can be practical is to have air
                  conditioning. With the extra available energy reserves onboard I can
                  devise an A/C system with an ICE. With battery only power, the range
                  is already too limited to consider a further drain on the batteries.

                  EV general comments:
                  I know this is just MY opinion, but EV's are just not there yet
                  (please no one feel putout or offended by that comment, your situation
                  may be very different than mine) -- as much as we'd (I share this
                  vision) like to believe. It actually could sort of be done, but the
                  resulting vehicle would be very small, very aerodynamic (the back end
                  of the Sparrow could certainly be modified for more efficiency with
                  that regard), and thus would be a bit dangerous on the roads of
                  America and especially here in Texas where we fight the good fight
                  with F-350's driving 85 mph every day! Some very fundamental things
                  about the highway system would have to change to make an electric
                  vehicle `practical'. Perhaps when mass production brings the price
                  down and battery technology comes along that make energy storage huge
                  and cheap, we'll reach a tipping point of some kind. Until then they
                  will be bought buy people with money to spare and an ideology to
                  follow. There are a lot of BTU's in 10 gallons of gas! And right now
                  it's kind of tough to beat.




                  --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, "garytabor2002" <garytabor2002@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Kenny,
                  >
                  > I'd like to hear your reasons for choosing to 'ICE' a Sparrow.
                  >
                  > Gary
                  >
                • bortel
                  Hi Kenny, If you are looking for an economical and practical transportation vehicle, the Sparrow/NmG is not it. It really was never intended to be. There are
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 1, 2006
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                    Hi Kenny,



                    If you are looking for an economical and practical transportation vehicle,
                    the Sparrow/NmG is not it. It really was never intended to be. There are
                    certain situations (like ferry commuters) where it happens to come out that
                    way, but that's not the norm. What the Sparrow/NmG is is a fun to drive, fun
                    to see, easy to maintain and relatively low cost to operate electric concept
                    vehicle. It is also a relatively low cost mobile advertising platform for
                    businesses.



                    As for the Meyers Motors concept car, the Qui Moto, don't expect to ever see
                    it in production. They are really just looking for ideas for what to build
                    next (there is only enough parts left to build about 50 NmGs, and no
                    molds/tooling left to make more). Since you are an automotive engineer, why
                    don't you contact them with some ideas. They are looking for a
                    multi-passenger, three wheeled, ELECTRIC design that could be easily and
                    cheaply put in production. And they are located fairly close to you
                    (compared to those of us on the left coast).



                    If you have been following the lastest news on electric vehicles, you will
                    know that with the recent new developments in batteries, combined with
                    current government incentives, some of the new fully electric vehicles are
                    suddenly VERY practical. If you look a the latest design from Phoenix Motors
                    you have a car/truck that, although the initial cost is double what a
                    similar ICE vehicle would cost, will actually pay for itself in very few
                    years. And it is quite comparable to a similar ICE vehicles for features and
                    practicality.



                    If you don't feel ambitious enough to 'roll your own', why don't you look at
                    the kit car section of eBay. They always have a good selection of cars that
                    could fit your needs and many that you could buy and 'improve' with your
                    talents.



                    Good Luck,

                    Dan



                    _____

                    From: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Kenny Andersen
                    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:33 AM
                    To: sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [sparrow_ev] Blasphamy



                    OK,
                    New to the group, I've always kind of like the looks of the Sparrow
                    and the idea of a 1-person commuter car...BUT, I just can't do the
                    electric thing. I'm an engineer and I have my personal reasons, and
                    will share them if anyone wants to here them, but I'm not trying to
                    start any controversy or burst anyones bubble. Suffice it to say the
                    Electric version of the Sparrow doesn't meet my requirements for a
                    vehicle. Now the blasphamous part: Does anyone on the board know of
                    a conversion for the Sparrow to make it run with an ICE? or can the
                    Sparrow be purchsed in component form less the motor, batteries and
                    all other of the electrical bruhaha?

                    Secondly, I see there are a couple of Myers folks lurking about. Will
                    their new vehicle be electric as well, or will that be a more
                    practical ICE'd vehicle. When do they expect some more information to
                    come out on that one?

                    Than's for letting me share 'part' of the sam vision with you.





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • evtweedie
                    ... the ... of ... Will ... to ... Oops! I think you dialed the wrong number; I mean joined the wrong forum. I suspect you were looking for
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 3, 2006
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                      --- In sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Kenny Andersen" <anderke@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > OK,
                      > New to the group, I've always kind of like the looks of the Sparrow
                      > and the idea of a 1-person commuter car...BUT, I just can't do the
                      > electric thing. I'm an engineer and I have my personal reasons, and
                      > will share them if anyone wants to here them, but I'm not trying to
                      > start any controversy or burst anyones bubble. Suffice it to say
                      the
                      > Electric version of the Sparrow doesn't meet my requirements for a
                      > vehicle. Now the blasphamous part: Does anyone on the board know
                      of
                      > a conversion for the Sparrow to make it run with an ICE? or can the
                      > Sparrow be purchsed in component form less the motor, batteries and
                      > all other of the electrical bruhaha?
                      >
                      > Secondly, I see there are a couple of Myers folks lurking about.
                      Will
                      > their new vehicle be electric as well, or will that be a more
                      > practical ICE'd vehicle. When do they expect some more information
                      to
                      > come out on that one?
                      >
                      > Than's for letting me share 'part' of the sam vision with you.
                      >


                      Oops! I think you dialed the wrong number; I mean joined the wrong
                      forum. I suspect you were looking for http://www.hummerforums.com/.

                      When Heidi drove off the lot with Tweety, She immediately put it to
                      work - COMMUTING. After going out of her way - across town - to my
                      work place and letting several people there test drive it, she
                      continued to do her shopping. Then on to the grocery store, filling
                      it with a grocery cart full of groceries - along with the stuff from
                      the other shopping. Then, after refilling in our driveway, off to
                      work the next morning - with a full "tank". Austin is not a huge
                      town, but, it is a Texas sprawling city and so far Tweety is handling
                      it with ease. So, far it is earning its keep quite well.
                      I guess being an electronics engineer makes me partial to electric,
                      so we are interested playing an active role in pushing the progress
                      of electric.

                      Ken, Heidi and Tweety

                      PS
                      Don't worry about bursting our bubble. It would be hard to convince
                      us that what we are doing won't work while we are doing it.
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