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RE: [sparetimegizmos] Re: Building a Bootable OS8 Image

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  • Doug Luurs
    From memory these are 16 bit applications so you need to be running a 32 bit version of Windows Or if you want to be trickie .. You can use VirtualBox on a
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 25, 2013
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      "From memory these are 16 bit applications so you need to be running a 32
      bit version of Windows"



      Or if you want to be trickie .. You can use VirtualBox on a 64-bit machine



      http://www.virtualbox.org/





      From: sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
      Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:59 AM
      To: sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [sparetimegizmos] Re: Building a Bootable OS8 Image





      It looks like the SBC6120 is not seeing your IDE drive as indicated by the
      "Not detected" message.

      Assuming it is connected, I suggest checking the connections and power to
      the drive. If the drive is recognized then identification details it will be
      reported after IDE: on power up.

      While you can install OS8 using the instructions in the guide, a much easier
      way assuming you have the ability to connect your IDE drive to a PC (easy if
      it is a CF card and you have a USB/CF adaptor) and the PC is running a
      version of Windows is to use the utilities from
      http://www.grc.com/pdp-8/os8utils-sbc.htm

      You also get a nice software collection.

      From memory these are 16 bit applications so you need to be running a 32 bit
      version of Windows.

      Regards

      Andrew

      --- In sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:sparetimegizmos%40yahoogroups.com> , "wrbwtv65" <yahoo@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello all,
      >
      > I just finished building my SBC6120 and got it up and running. When I
      power it up, I get the following message in my terminal:
      >
      > "SBC6120 ROM Monitor V271 Checksum 3732 7602 6243 04-NOV-04 20:03:35
      > Copyright (C) 1983-2004 Spare Time Gizmos. All rights reserved.
      >
      > NVR: 0KB - Battery FAIL
      > IDE: Not detected"
      >
      > So far, so good. RIght?
      >
      > Now, I'm kind of confused as to how to go about building a bootable OS8
      image. I've read the following from the user's manual:
      >
      > "The general plan is to use the emulator to boot OS/8 from standard media
      (e.g. RX01, RK05, RL01, etc.), load and compile the SBC6120 ID01 and VM01
      device drivers, and then use the OS/8 BUILD program to build a bootable IDE
      or RAM disk image file. If you have no idea how to go about using BUILD to
      configure an OS/8 system, then you should read Appendix A for a brief
      summary of the procedure."
      >
      > And I've read appendix A, but I'm still a little lost. This sounds like
      it's saying Appendix A tells me how to build my D01.PA and VM01.PA file, but
      Appendix A starts off assuming I already have a D01.PA and VM01.PA file.
      >
      > My confusion, specifically, revolves around how I obtain the D01.PA and
      VM01.PA file. Where do these files come from? Do I obtain them online? Or do
      I make them using the Win8 emulator?
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew
      I might be wrong on that because I just ran them again on 64 bit Windows 7 and they run fine. It must have been a different retrocomputing tool I was playing
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 25, 2013
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        I might be wrong on that because I just ran them again on 64 bit Windows 7 and they run fine.

        It must have been a different retrocomputing tool I was playing with.

        --- In sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Luurs" <n8zuu@...> wrote:
        >
        > "From memory these are 16 bit applications so you need to be running a 32
        > bit version of Windows"
        >
        >
        >
        > Or if you want to be trickie .. You can use VirtualBox on a 64-bit machine
        >
        >
        >
        > http://www.virtualbox.org/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
        > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:59 AM
        > To: sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [sparetimegizmos] Re: Building a Bootable OS8 Image
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > It looks like the SBC6120 is not seeing your IDE drive as indicated by the
        > "Not detected" message.
        >
        > Assuming it is connected, I suggest checking the connections and power to
        > the drive. If the drive is recognized then identification details it will be
        > reported after IDE: on power up.
        >
        > While you can install OS8 using the instructions in the guide, a much easier
        > way assuming you have the ability to connect your IDE drive to a PC (easy if
        > it is a CF card and you have a USB/CF adaptor) and the PC is running a
        > version of Windows is to use the utilities from
        > http://www.grc.com/pdp-8/os8utils-sbc.htm
        >
        > You also get a nice software collection.
        >
        > From memory these are 16 bit applications so you need to be running a 32 bit
        > version of Windows.
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Andrew
        >
        > --- In sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:sparetimegizmos%40yahoogroups.com> , "wrbwtv65" <yahoo@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello all,
        > >
        > > I just finished building my SBC6120 and got it up and running. When I
        > power it up, I get the following message in my terminal:
        > >
        > > "SBC6120 ROM Monitor V271 Checksum 3732 7602 6243 04-NOV-04 20:03:35
        > > Copyright (C) 1983-2004 Spare Time Gizmos. All rights reserved.
        > >
        > > NVR: 0KB - Battery FAIL
        > > IDE: Not detected"
        > >
        > > So far, so good. RIght?
        > >
        > > Now, I'm kind of confused as to how to go about building a bootable OS8
        > image. I've read the following from the user's manual:
        > >
        > > "The general plan is to use the emulator to boot OS/8 from standard media
        > (e.g. RX01, RK05, RL01, etc.), load and compile the SBC6120 ID01 and VM01
        > device drivers, and then use the OS/8 BUILD program to build a bootable IDE
        > or RAM disk image file. If you have no idea how to go about using BUILD to
        > configure an OS/8 system, then you should read Appendix A for a brief
        > summary of the procedure."
        > >
        > > And I've read appendix A, but I'm still a little lost. This sounds like
        > it's saying Appendix A tells me how to build my D01.PA and VM01.PA file, but
        > Appendix A starts off assuming I already have a D01.PA and VM01.PA file.
        > >
        > > My confusion, specifically, revolves around how I obtain the D01.PA and
        > VM01.PA file. Where do these files come from? Do I obtain them online? Or do
        > I make them using the Win8 emulator?
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • wrbwtv65
        ... I didn t have one connected at that time. I was just verifying that the hardware is okay. ... That s what I was trying to do. I was wanting to build an OS8
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 26, 2013
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          > It looks like the SBC6120 is not seeing your IDE drive as indicated by the "Not detected" message.

          I didn't have one connected at that time. I was just verifying that the hardware is okay.

          > While you can install OS8 using the instructions in the guide...

          That's what I was trying to do. I was wanting to build an OS8 image and upload it to the SBC6120 via serial port. Perhaps I was being too ambitious.

          >...a much easier way assuming you have the ability to connect your IDE drive to a PC (easy if it is a CF card and you have a USB/CF adaptor) and the PC is running a version of Windows is to use the utilities from http://www.grc.com/pdp-8/os8utils-sbc.htm

          I tried that, too, using a 20gig hard drive I had laying around. But I ran into an issue there as well.

          Here are my steps.

          1) Connect hard drive to SBC6120 and power harddrive, then power up SBC6120.
          2) I'm greeted with:
          "SBC6120 ROM Monitor V271 Checksum 3732 7602 6243 04-NOV-04 20:03:35
          Copyright (C) 1983-2004 Spare Time Gizmos. All rights reserved.

          NVR: 0KB - Battery FAIL
          IDE: 3190MB - WDC WD205BA"

          Note that it says 31,190 MB when, in fact, this is a 20gig drive.

          3) I issue a command "DF 0000" and hit "y" when asked to confirm.
          4) After 2 minutes or so I get "Writing ............... Verifying ............... Done"
          5) I connect the drive, using a USB to parallel ATA adapter, to my MacBook Pro running Windows 7 Ultimate.
          6) The drive shows up in "Disk Management" as "Disk 2 19.12GB Not Initialized" and shows 1 partition as "Unallocated". No drive letter is assigned.
          7) I open the cmd window and issue the command "InstallOS8 0000". The InstallOS8 utility just spits out the help info, as if I typed "InstallOS8 help".

          Can anyone suggest where to start for troubleshooting? Does it look like I formatted the drive correctly? Does Steve's InstallOS8 utility usually fail silently like this? Is a 20gig drive too big? Is the fact that the SBC6120 thinks the drive is 31GB a clue to something?

          There doesn't seem to be a "limit drive size to 32mb" jumper on this drive, at least not one that's documented on the label.

          Thanks in advance for any input.

          > You also get a nice software collection.
          >
          > From memory these are 16 bit applications so you need to be running a 32 bit version of Windows.
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > Andrew
          >
          > --- In sparetimegizmos@yahoogroups.com, "wrbwtv65" <yahoo@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello all,
          > >
          > > I just finished building my SBC6120 and got it up and running. When I power it up, I get the following message in my terminal:
          > >
          > > "SBC6120 ROM Monitor V271 Checksum 3732 7602 6243 04-NOV-04 20:03:35
          > > Copyright (C) 1983-2004 Spare Time Gizmos. All rights reserved.
          > >
          > > NVR: 0KB - Battery FAIL
          > > IDE: Not detected"
          > >
          > > So far, so good. RIght?
          > >
          > > Now, I'm kind of confused as to how to go about building a bootable OS8 image. I've read the following from the user's manual:
          > >
          > > "The general plan is to use the emulator to boot OS/8 from standard media (e.g. RX01, RK05, RL01, etc.), load and compile the SBC6120 ID01 and VM01 device drivers, and then use the OS/8 BUILD program to build a bootable IDE or RAM disk image file. If you have no idea how to go about using BUILD to configure an OS/8 system, then you should read Appendix A for a brief summary of the procedure."
          > >
          > > And I've read appendix A, but I'm still a little lost. This sounds like it's saying Appendix A tells me how to build my D01.PA and VM01.PA file, but Appendix A starts off assuming I already have a D01.PA and VM01.PA file.
          > >
          > > My confusion, specifically, revolves around how I obtain the D01.PA and VM01.PA file. Where do these files come from? Do I obtain them online? Or do I make them using the Win8 emulator?
          > >
          >
        • Brian Lloyd
          ... You need to understand something about disk addresses and file systems to understand what is going on. Back when the PDP8 was en-vogue, there were no 20GB
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 27, 2013
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            On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 2:43 PM, wrbwtv65 <yahoo@...> wrote:

            > **
            > NVR: 0KB - Battery FAIL
            > IDE: 3190MB - WDC WD205BA"
            >
            > Note that it says 31,190 MB when, in fact, this is a 20gig drive.
            >

            You need to understand something about disk addresses and file systems to
            understand what is going on.

            Back when the PDP8 was en-vogue, there were no 20GB disks. Period. So disk
            addresses did not need to be able to address 20GB. I would be willing to
            bet that OS-8 uses a double word (24 bits) to construct a disk sector
            address. That gives you a maximum of 16,777,216 (16M) disk addresses. It
            depends on how the 12-bit words are packed into a sector by the driver as
            to how big a sector appears to be. (The author of the driver and/or source
            code could tell you.) But that is why no matter how big the disk really is,
            it is never going to be able to deliver anywhere near its capacity to OS8
            as OS8 just doesn't know how to address that much disk.

            Now on the PC side of things, the PC can use the low-level disk driver
            routines to address individual sectors of the drive. But none of the PC
            OS's have an implementation of the OS8 file system (which is really crude
            and rudimentary). So you have to have an application program that opens the
            drive using the raw disk I/O routines (read and write individual sectors
            below the level of the file system) that understands the OS8 file system
            structure to write the necessary files on the OS8 disk.

            So, when you attach the disk you plan to use for OS8 to the PC, the PC is
            going to think that the partition or partitions are empty. That is OK. You
            then start a program that will open the disk partitions for raw disk I/O
            and *it* will then write the files on there without the knowledge of the
            PC's OS. But when you move the drive back to your SBC6120, OS8 will be able
            to boot and know what to do with the data on the disk.

            Does this help at all?

            --
            Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
            3191 Western Dr.
            Cameron Park, CA 95682
            brian@...
            +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
            +1.916.877.5067 (USA)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • wrbwtv65
            ... ..snip.. ... Not really. I understand everything you wrote and I agree with it. My problem isn t that I expect the PDP-8 to use the whole 20gigs, nor that
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 30, 2013
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              >
              > You need to understand something about disk addresses and file systems to
              > understand what is going on.
              ..snip..
              >
              > Does this help at all?

              Not really. I understand everything you wrote and I agree with it. My problem isn't that I expect the PDP-8 to use the whole 20gigs, nor that the drive's size show's up wrong. I was just documenting my steps and pointing out any discrepancies I believed may be helpful.

              My exact problem is after I follow the instructions supplied with Steve Gibson's InstallOS8 program and connect the drive to the computer, the InstallOS8 application delivers unexpected results.

              Let me repeat step 7, this time with actual/expected results:

              7) I open the cmd window and issue the command "InstallOS8 0000".
              Expected Results: OS/8 is written to the 0000 "partition" of the ATA drive.
              Actual results: The InstallOS8 utility outputs help info.

              All the other steps/results I listed were just to confirm that I followed the documentation supplied with the InstallOS8 utility.
            • Brian Lloyd
              ... OK, sorry. Most people have only the faintest clue of how disks used to work and how they work now. I remember at how I marveled at disk drives switching
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 30, 2013
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                On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 2:23 PM, wrbwtv65 <yahoo@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                > > You need to understand something about disk addresses and file systems to
                > > understand what is going on.
                > ..snip..
                >
                > >
                > > Does this help at all?
                >
                > Not really. I understand everything you wrote and I agree with it. My
                > problem isn't that I expect the PDP-8 to use the whole 20gigs, nor that the
                > drive's size show's up wrong. I was just documenting my steps and pointing
                > out any discrepancies I believed may be helpful.
                >

                OK, sorry. Most people have only the faintest clue of how disks used to
                work and how they work now. I remember at how I marveled at disk drives
                switching to a linear address rather than head + track + sector addressing.

                --
                Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
                3191 Western Dr.
                Cameron Park, CA 95682
                brian@...
                +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
                +1.916.877.5067 (USA)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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