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Another cyclist fatality in SE1: The Shard and Keltbray lorries

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  • Barry Mason
    I was at Woolwich Arsenal this morning for Greenwich Council s press launch of their not finished £6m remake of General Gordon Square etc when a text arrived
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 9, 2010
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      I was at Woolwich Arsenal this morning for Greenwich Council's press
      launch of their not finished £6m remake of General Gordon Square etc
      when a text arrived with this appalling news. So I called Southwark
      News. They got back to me saying that the landlord of The Rose pub at
      the Weston Street/Snowsfields junction, right on the scene, said it was
      a young woman who'd been killed. Any more speculation is pointless until
      facts clarify.

      What is certain that it was Keltbray lorry LB08 JZR, with no side guards
      fitted.

      It's almost certain that the lorry was one of the fleet servicing The
      Shard site on St Thomas's Street. Those lorries aren't supposed to use
      little local roads like Weston Street etc...that's part of the site
      management plan. But local people, I hear today, say that more and more
      Shard lorries are doing just that, especially at night.

      So I called into Sellar Developments around 1.30pm today (area taped off
      but lorry and bike still there) and they got the Project Managing
      Director of London Bridge Quarter, Bernard Ainsworth, out of a meeting
      to talk to me. We were both very clear that facts weren't yet
      established but he's now checking about their Keltbray lorries and
      routes etc. And will get back to me. He was excellent.

      The Keltbray lorry in question certainly didn't have side guards and I
      don't yet know if it was otherwise as well equipped as this Keltbray
      demonstrator:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUI7_l0Ofug

      We'll of course discuss further actions tomorrow evening.

      And Bernard Ainsworth is very aware at the Shard's shortage of bike
      parking..."we have been tasked to look at it".

      Barry
      07905 889 005



      Oliver wrote:
      >
      >
      > Brief SE1 coverage here:
      >
      > http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401
      > <http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401>
      >
      > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
      > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
      > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
      >
      > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
      > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
      > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
      > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
      > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
      > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
      >
      > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
      > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
      > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
      > Weston street going south.
      >
      > --- In southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:southwarkcyclists%40yahoogroups.com>, "Charlie" <charlie@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > A cyclist was killed this morning in Weston St. Run over by a large
      > tipper lorry.
      > >
      > > Transport for London have published their Cycle Safety Action Plan
      > due to appear on their website later today:
      > > www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/13382
      > >
      > >
      > > Their new cinema ad is also out
      > > http://www.dothetest.co.uk/bankjob.html
      > <http://www.dothetest.co.uk/bankjob.html>
      > >
      >
      >
    • Vivian McClew
      Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something? I m not familiar with these streets, but google s streetview showed me very narrow streets. Are
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 9, 2010
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        Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?

        I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
        very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?

        Vivian
        ---
        "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
        school". No Surrender


        -----Original Message-----
        From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver
        Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
        To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


        Brief SE1 coverage here:

        http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401

        This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
        this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
        around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).

        The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
        street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
        doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
        with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
        Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
        it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.

        A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
        road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
        to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
        Weston street going south.
      • Caspar Below
        That s so sad, quite a few flowers there already outside the Rose pub. This morning I passed just after it happened, but nobody told me what was going on. I
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 9, 2010
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          That's so sad, quite a few flowers there already outside the Rose pub. This morning I passed just after it happened, but nobody told me what was going on.

          I use that route every morning, too and have had a lot of problems with traffic travelling South with me going North in the morning.

          In my experience a lot of traffic going South, coming off St Thomas Street seem to assume that it's a one-way street, treating me like I'm just cheating. I have had a lot of problems with Kelbray Tippers coming towards me exactly there, and having one of those coming towards you on Weston Street means there is nowhere to go except the pavement.

          It's the first time I hear that they might not be allowed down roads like that, I always assumed they can do what they want.

          My thoughts are with her family

          Caspar

          On 9 March 2010 20:01, Vivian McClew <vmcclew@...> wrote:
           

          Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?

          I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
          very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?

          Vivian
          ---
          "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
          school". No Surrender



          -----Original Message-----
          From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver
          Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
          To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

          Brief SE1 coverage here:

          http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401

          This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
          this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
          around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).

          The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
          street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
          doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
          with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
          Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
          it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.

          A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
          road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
          to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
          Weston street going south.




          --
          rhiza web works www.rhiza.co.uk
          OHM www.oralhistorymatters.co.uk

          www.casparbelow.com
        • ann warren
          Vivian The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they drive the more they get paid. Ann To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com From:
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
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            Vivian

            The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they drive the more they get paid.

            Ann


            To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
            From: vmcclew@...
            Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
            Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

             
            Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?

            I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
            very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?

            Vivian
            ---
            "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
            school". No Surrender

            -----Original Message-----
            From: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
            [mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Oliver
            Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
            To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

            Brief SE1 coverage here:

            http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401

            This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
            this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
            around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).

            The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
            street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
            doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
            with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
            Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
            it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.

            A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
            road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
            to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
            Weston street going south.




            Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
          • Sally Eva
            I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their licensing needed
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
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              I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
              full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
              licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
              difficult-to-get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
              for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
              and acceleration.
              Sally

              ann warren wrote:
              >
              >
              > Vivian
              >
              > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
              > drive the more they get paid.
              >
              > Ann
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
              > From: vmcclew@...
              > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
              > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
              >
              >
              > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
              >
              > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
              > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
              >
              > Vivian
              > ---
              > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
              > school". No Surrender
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
              > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
              > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
              >
              > Brief SE1 coverage here:
              >
              > http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401
              > <http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401>
              >
              > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
              > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
              > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
              >
              > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
              > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
              > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
              > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
              > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
              > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
              >
              > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
              > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
              > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
              > Weston street going south.
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
              > <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
              >
              >
            • Caspar Below
              I know drivers of skip lorriers are paid by the load. Is it the same for tipper lorries? In this case it was definetly a tipper lorry ( I saw it) Caspar ... --
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
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                I know drivers of skip lorriers are paid by the load. Is it the same for tipper lorries?

                In this case it was definetly a tipper lorry ( I saw it)

                Caspar

                On 10 March 2010 13:44, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@...> wrote:
                 

                I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                difficult-to-get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                and acceleration.
                Sally



                ann warren wrote:
                >
                >
                > Vivian
                >
                > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                > drive the more they get paid.
                >
                > Ann
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                > From: vmcclew@...
                > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                >
                >
                > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                >
                > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                >
                > Vivian
                > ---
                > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                > school". No Surrender
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                >
                > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                >
                > http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401
                > <http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401>
                >
                > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                >
                > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                >
                > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                > Weston street going south.
                >
                >
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                > <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/>
                >
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                >
                >



                --
                rhiza web works www.rhiza.co.uk
                OHM www.oralhistorymatters.co.uk

                www.casparbelow.com
              • Charlie
                The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
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                  The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by lorries had not improved.
                  The lorries have got bigger. They have got much higher, so the view of the road is restricted. They are almost twice as powerful, due to revised regulations. They are very much easier to drive with power steering, good brakes and easy gears.
                  While the training of drivers has become longer and more complex the basic skills have become easier to achieve. There needs to be a complete re-think of how we train these drivers before letting them loose.

                  Following another lorry x cyclist death in Hackney this morning Jenny Jones has asked on Twitter "why not ban lorries at morning peak?"



                  --- In southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                  > full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                  > licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                  > difficult-to-get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                  > for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                  > and acceleration.
                  > Sally
                  >
                  > ann warren wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Vivian
                  > >
                  > > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                  > > drive the more they get paid.
                  > >
                  > > Ann
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: vmcclew@...
                  > > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                  > > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                  > >
                  > > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                  > > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                  > >
                  > > Vivian
                  > > ---
                  > > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                  > > school". No Surrender
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                  > > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                  > > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                  > >
                  > > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401
                  > > <http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401>
                  > >
                  > > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                  > > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                  > > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                  > >
                  > > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                  > > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                  > > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                  > > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                  > > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                  > > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                  > >
                  > > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                  > > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                  > > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                  > > Weston street going south.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                  > > <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Colin J Taylor
                  While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to pull out into the main
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road. There seemed to be an element of responsibilty on the part of the driver, that he should move out of the way of the smaller and more vunerable cyclist, much like in sailing where the larger boat gives way.

                    I just think that it is ownership of responsibilty, education and common sense on everyones part, segregation won't solve the underlying problems

                    Col

                    On 10 Mar 2010, at 14:55, "Charlie" <charlie@...> wrote:

                     

                    The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by lorries had not improved.
                    The lorries have got bigger. They have got much higher, so the view of the road is restricted. They are almost twice as powerful, due to revised regulations. They are very much easier to drive with power steering, good brakes and easy gears.
                    While the training of drivers has become longer and more complex the basic skills have become easier to achieve. There needs to be a complete re-think of how we train these drivers before letting them loose.

                    Following another lorry x cyclist death in Hackney this morning Jenny Jones has asked on Twitter "why not ban lorries at morning peak?"

                    --- In southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                    > full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                    > licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                    > difficult-to- get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                    > for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                    > and acceleration.
                    > Sally
                    >
                    > ann warren wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Vivian
                    > >
                    > > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                    > > drive the more they get paid.
                    > >
                    > > Ann
                    > >
                    > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > From: vmcclew@...
                    > > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                    > > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                    > >
                    > > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                    > > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                    > >
                    > > Vivian
                    > > ---
                    > > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                    > > school". No Surrender
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                    > > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                    > > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                    > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                    > > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                    > >
                    > > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                    > >
                    > > http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401
                    > > <http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401>
                    > >
                    > > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                    > > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                    > > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                    > >
                    > > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                    > > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                    > > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                    > > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                    > > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                    > > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                    > >
                    > > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                    > > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                    > > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                    > > Weston street going south.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    > > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                    > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • Charlie
                    ... I had the same experience in Denmark last summer. How do we get UK lorry drivers to behave in that way?
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com, Colin J Taylor <colin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very
                      > pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to
                      > pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle
                      > lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road.

                      I had the same experience in Denmark last summer. How do we get UK lorry drivers to behave in that way?
                    • ray.welsh@lineone.net
                      Cowboy payment methods and no traffic police service. They can do what they want as long as they don t hit a vehicle or a person. They are greedy people
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 10, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Cowboy payment methods and no traffic police service. They can do what they want as long as they don't hit a vehicle or a person. They are greedy people responding in a completely rational way to the incentives that present themselves. Do what the f*** you want because you will get away with it.

                        ----Original Message----
                        From: charlie@...
                        Date: 10/03/2010 22:15
                        To: <southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subj: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                         

                        --- In southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com, Colin J Taylor <colin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very
                        > pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to
                        > pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle
                        > lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road.

                        I had the same experience in Denmark last summer. How do we get UK lorry drivers to behave in that way?



                      • Barber, James
                        I m under the impression that majority of European traffic laws such as Netherlands are such that the weaker party is assumed innocent in any collision and the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 11, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I'm under the impression that majority of European traffic laws such as Netherlands are such that the weaker party is assumed innocent in any collision and the stronger party presumed guilty until proven otherwise..
                          In UK traffic law every party is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

                          Other UK laws presume guilt until proven innocent - Ordnance Survey/Crown copyright instantly comes to mind. Their are others.
                          But traffic victims have less legal protection than photocopying maps!

                          About two years ago a move to standardise European traffic laws along the lines described allowing a European free market in motor insurance with commensurate price reductions. But UK press went barmy during a very quiet August with stories about crazed UK cyclists making claims when they get knocked of their bikes.

                          So when a cyclist gets killed of injured it is very rare any prosecution is made. Apart from the evidentially hurdle where one the involved parties is dead. Often the vibe seems to be the killer has suffered enough having it on their conscience.


                          Regards james barber
                          Liberal Democrat councillor for East Dulwich
                          07960 964130
                          http://www.jamesbarber.org.uk
                          http://twitter.com/CllrJamesBarber

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                          From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com <southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                          To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com <southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wed Mar 10 22:15:45 2010
                          Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                           

                          --- In southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com, Colin J Taylor <colin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very
                          > pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to
                          > pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle
                          > lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road.

                          I had the same experience in Denmark last summer. How do we get UK lorry drivers to behave in that way?

                        • Vivian McClew
                          Do they have the equivalent of the Daily Mail in those countries? Or the Sun, News of the World, etc, etc? Vivian ... We learned more from a three minute
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 11, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Do they have the equivalent of the Daily Mail in those countries? Or the
                            Sun, News of the World, etc, etc?

                            Vivian
                            ---
                            "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                            school". No Surrender


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
                            Sent: 10 March 2010 22:16
                            To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                            --- In southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com, Colin J Taylor <colin@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very
                            > pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to

                            > pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle
                            > lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road.

                            I had the same experience in Denmark last summer. How do we get UK lorry
                            drivers to behave in that way?
                          • ann warren
                            Ownership of responsibility, education and common sense on everyones part - why not? Easy, surely? After sixty years of dogged optimism about human nature, I
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 12, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Ownership of responsibility, education and common sense on everyones part - why not?  Easy, surely?

                              After sixty years of dogged optimism about human nature, I am thoroughly convinced of the corrupting influence of all forms of power.  Control of a modern vehicle is no less intoxicating than any other kind of real power.  Segregation works for me.  As it does in those benign democracies where the vulnerable traveller is served by well-designed safe routes, not just legal protection.

                              Ann


                              To: charlie@...
                              CC: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                              From: colin@...
                              Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:30:58 +0000
                              Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                               

                              While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road. There seemed to be an element of responsibilty on the part of the driver, that he should move out of the way of the smaller and more vunerable cyclist, much like in sailing where the larger boat gives way.

                              I just think that it is ownership of responsibilty, education and common sense on everyones part, segregation won't solve the underlying problems

                              Col

                              On 10 Mar 2010, at 14:55, "Charlie" <charlie@lcc. org.uk> wrote:

                               
                              The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by lorries had not improved.
                              The lorries have got bigger. They have got much higher, so the view of the road is restricted. They are almost twice as powerful, due to revised regulations. They are very much easier to drive with power steering, good brakes and easy gears.
                              While the training of drivers has become longer and more complex the basic skills have become easier to achieve. There needs to be a complete re-think of how we train these drivers before letting them loose.

                              Following another lorry x cyclist death in Hackney this morning Jenny Jones has asked on Twitter "why not ban lorries at morning peak?"

                              --- In southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                              > full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                              > licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                              > difficult-to- get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                              > for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                              > and acceleration.
                              > Sally
                              >
                              > ann warren wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Vivian
                              > >
                              > > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                              > > drive the more they get paid.
                              > >
                              > > Ann
                              > >
                              > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                              > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > From: vmcclew@...
                              > > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                              > > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                              > >
                              > > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                              > > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                              > >
                              > > Vivian
                              > > ---
                              > > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                              > > school". No Surrender
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                              > > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                              > > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                              > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                              > > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                              > >
                              > > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                              > >
                              > > http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401
                              > > <http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401>
                              > >
                              > > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                              > > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                              > > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                              > >
                              > > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                              > > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                              > > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                              > > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                              > > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                              > > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                              > >
                              > > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                              > > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                              > > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                              > > Weston street going south.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                              > > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                              > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                              > >
                              > >
                              >





                              Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                            • Matt Beale-Collins
                              Matt Beale-Collins Climate Change Team Communities Surrey County Council KT1 2DY Office: 0208 541 8566 BlackBerry: 07967536381 Matt.b.collins@surreycc.gov.uk
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 12, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment


                                Matt Beale-Collins
                                Climate Change Team
                                Communities
                                Surrey County Council
                                KT1 2DY
                                Office: 0208 541 8566
                                BlackBerry: 07967536381
                                Matt.b.collins@...


                                  From: Matt Beale-Collins
                                  Sent: 12/03/2010 09:31 GMT
                                  To: "ann warren" <a_j_warren_se16@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                                I'm really feeling very sad for people close to this poor young woman and I wondered if we could agree a period of email silence after such awful events, in respect, but also to reflect on our own cycling lives and the daily risks we take.

                                May her family and loved ones feel the support of this e-group.
                                Matt Beale-Collins
                                Climate Change Team
                                Communities
                                Surrey County Council
                                KT1 2DY
                                Office: 0208 541 8566
                                BlackBerry: 07967536381
                                Matt.b.collins@...


                                  From: ann warren [a_j_warren_se16@...]
                                  Sent: 12/03/2010 09:16 GMT
                                  To: <colin@...>; <charlie@...>
                                  Cc: Southwark Cyclists <southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                                Ownership of responsibility, education and common sense on everyones part - why not?  Easy, surely?

                                After sixty years of dogged optimism about human nature, I am thoroughly convinced of the corrupting influence of all forms of power.  Control of a modern vehicle is no less intoxicating than any other kind of real power.  Segregation works for me.  As it does in those benign democracies where the vulnerable traveller is served by well-designed safe routes, not just legal protection.

                                Ann


                                To: charlie@...
                                CC: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                From: colin@...
                                Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:30:58 +0000
                                Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                                 

                                While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road. There seemed to be an element of responsibilty on the part of the driver, that he should move out of the way of the smaller and more vunerable cyclist, much like in sailing where the larger boat gives way.

                                I just think that it is ownership of responsibilty, education and common sense on everyones part, segregation won't solve the underlying problems

                                Col

                                On 10 Mar 2010, at 14:55, "Charlie" <charlie@lcc. org.uk> wrote:

                                 
                                The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by lorries had not improved.
                                The lorries have got bigger. They have got much higher, so the view of the road is restricted. They are almost twice as powerful, due to revised regulations. They are very much easier to drive with power steering, good brakes and easy gears.
                                While the training of drivers has become longer and more complex the basic skills have become easier to achieve. There needs to be a complete re-think of how we train these drivers before letting them loose.

                                Following another lorry x cyclist death in Hackney this morning Jenny Jones has asked on Twitter "why not ban lorries at morning peak?"

                                --- In southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                                > full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                                > licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                                > difficult-to- get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                                > for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                                > and acceleration.
                                > Sally
                                >
                                > ann warren wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Vivian
                                > >
                                > > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                                > > drive the more they get paid.
                                > >
                                > > Ann
                                > >
                                > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > From: vmcclew@...
                                > > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                                > > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                                > >
                                > > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                                > > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                                > >
                                > > Vivian
                                > > ---
                                > > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                                > > school". No Surrender
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                > > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                                > > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                                > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                > > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                > >
                                > > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                                > >
                                > > http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401
                                > > <http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401>
                                > >
                                > > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                                > > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                                > > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                                > >
                                > > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                                > > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                                > > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                                > > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                                > > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                                > > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                                > >
                                > > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                                > > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                                > > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                                > > Weston street going south.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                > > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                                > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                                > >
                                > >
                                >





                                Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now

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                              • Sally Eva
                                these countries probably have more cyclists so that cyclists make up a larger proportion of the readership of the papers and so the newspapers are more careful
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 12, 2010
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                                  these countries probably have more cyclists so that cyclists make up a
                                  larger proportion of the readership of the papers and so the newspapers
                                  are more careful of their opinions.

                                  The mass readership of the NoW would be WVM and lorry drivers. The
                                  mental readership of the Daily Mail would be travelling salesmen and the
                                  aspirational readership company directors in big cars.

                                  I worked as a journalist before giving up to have children. (Journalism
                                  is incompatible with human life) and a mental picture of "the reader" is
                                  part of all newspaper story selection and delivery.

                                  As long as the stereotypical picture of a cyclist is a young man in
                                  Lycra banging on your car roof because you have just carved him up or
                                  slowing you down by cycling assertively, certain newspapers will attack
                                  them because they feel that their target readership will be amused by
                                  the attacks.

                                  Plus newspapers are dying and dying animals get more vicious

                                  Sally

                                  Vivian McClew wrote:
                                  > Do they have the equivalent of the Daily Mail in those countries? Or
                                  > the Sun, News of the World, etc, etc?
                                  >
                                  > Vivian --- "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever
                                  > learned in school". No Surrender
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message----- From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Sent:
                                  > 10 March 2010 22:16 To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com Subject:
                                  > [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com, Colin J Taylor <colin@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very
                                  >> pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road
                                  >> to
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >> pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle
                                  >> lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > I had the same experience in Denmark last summer. How do we get UK
                                  > lorry drivers to behave in that way?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Any comments expressed above are those of the writer - unless it's
                                  > specifically stated that the comments are on behalf of Southwark
                                  > Cyclists.
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com To
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                                  > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2736 - Release Date:
                                  > 03/11/10 07:33:00
                                  >
                                  >
                                • ann warren
                                  Sorry Matt. A period of respectful silence would of course be civilised. But who will be next? It is more than ever urgent to break the pervading cyclists
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 12, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Sorry Matt.  A period of respectful silence would of course be civilised.  But who will be next?

                                    It is more than ever urgent to break the pervading cyclists' dogma that segregation is always bad, sharing the road is always good and a 20mph limit will make everything safe.  (I don't think any of the lorries involved were doing 20mph.)  It's my view that this strong message from a vociferous section of the cycle lobby has allowed the authorities to resist investing in good infrastructure and has held back the cause of cycle safety in London for twenty years.  The inadequacy of the LCN is proof.

                                    Ann




                                    To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: matt.b.collins@...
                                    Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:32:28 +0000
                                    Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                                     


                                    Matt Beale-Collins
                                    Climate Change Team
                                    Communities
                                    Surrey County Council
                                    KT1 2DY
                                    Office: 0208 541 8566
                                    BlackBerry: 07967536381
                                    Matt.b.collins@ surreycc. gov.uk


                                      From: Matt Beale-Collins
                                      Sent: 12/03/2010 09:31 GMT
                                      To: "ann warren" <a_j_warren_se16@ hotmail.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                                    I'm really feeling very sad for people close to this poor young woman and I wondered if we could agree a period of email silence after such awful events, in respect, but also to reflect on our own cycling lives and the daily risks we take.

                                    May her family and loved ones feel the support of this e-group.
                                    Matt Beale-Collins
                                    Climate Change Team
                                    Communities
                                    Surrey County Council
                                    KT1 2DY
                                    Office: 0208 541 8566
                                    BlackBerry: 07967536381
                                    Matt.b.collins@ surreycc. gov.uk


                                      From: ann warren [a_j_warren_ se16@hotmail. com]
                                      Sent: 12/03/2010 09:16 GMT
                                      To: <colin@colinjtaylor. co.uk>; <charlie@lcc. org.uk>
                                      Cc: Southwark Cyclists <southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                      Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                                    Ownership of responsibility, education and common sense on everyones part - why not?  Easy, surely?

                                    After sixty years of dogged optimism about human nature, I am thoroughly convinced of the corrupting influence of all forms of power.  Control of a modern vehicle is no less intoxicating than any other kind of real power.  Segregation works for me.  As it does in those benign democracies where the vulnerable traveller is served by well-designed safe routes, not just legal protection.

                                    Ann


                                    To: charlie@lcc. org.uk
                                    CC: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                    From: colin@colinjtaylor. co.uk
                                    Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:30:58 +0000
                                    Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                                     

                                    While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road. There seemed to be an element of responsibilty on the part of the driver, that he should move out of the way of the smaller and more vunerable cyclist, much like in sailing where the larger boat gives way.

                                    I just think that it is ownership of responsibilty, education and common sense on everyones part, segregation won't solve the underlying problems

                                    Col

                                    On 10 Mar 2010, at 14:55, "Charlie" <charlie@lcc. org.uk> wrote:

                                     
                                    The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by lorries had not improved.
                                    The lorries have got bigger. They have got much higher, so the view of the road is restricted. They are almost twice as powerful, due to revised regulations. They are very much easier to drive with power steering, good brakes and easy gears.
                                    While the training of drivers has become longer and more complex the basic skills have become easier to achieve. There needs to be a complete re-think of how we train these drivers before letting them loose.

                                    Following another lorry x cyclist death in Hackney this morning Jenny Jones has asked on Twitter "why not ban lorries at morning peak?"

                                    --- In southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                                    > full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                                    > licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                                    > difficult-to- get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                                    > for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                                    > and acceleration.
                                    > Sally
                                    >
                                    > ann warren wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Vivian
                                    > >
                                    > > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                                    > > drive the more they get paid.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ann
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                    > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > From: vmcclew@...
                                    > > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                                    > > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                                    > > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                                    > >
                                    > > Vivian
                                    > > ---
                                    > > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                                    > > school". No Surrender
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                    > > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                                    > > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                                    > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                    > > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                    > >
                                    > > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401
                                    > > <http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401>
                                    > >
                                    > > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                                    > > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                                    > > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                                    > >
                                    > > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                                    > > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                                    > > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                                    > > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                                    > > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                                    > > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                                    > >
                                    > > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                                    > > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                                    > > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                                    > > Weston street going south.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                    > > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                                    > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >





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                                  • Colin Taylor
                                    Ann, As you say, segregation is a last resort, a decision arrived at after all other reasonable options have been tried. Segregation could work in the short
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 12, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      Ann,

                                       

                                      As you say, segregation is a last resort, a decision arrived at after all other reasonable options have been tried. Segregation could work in the short term, but this is a problem that needs to be solved, not avoided. I ride my bike for many reasons, one of which is a sense of freedom. I want to ride on the roads, I want to share the roads with other road users, I don’t think it unreasonable to expect this. I’m certainly not naive to the fact that this won’t come easily, but the point I was making in my original mail was that it is possible, and that gives me hope.

                                       

                                      Regards,

                                      Colin

                                       

                                      From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ann warren
                                      Sent: 12 March 2010 09:17
                                      To: colin@...; charlie@...
                                      Cc: Southwark Cyclists
                                      Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                                       

                                       

                                      Ownership of responsibility, education and common sense on everyones part - why not?  Easy, surely?

                                      After sixty years of dogged optimism about human nature, I am thoroughly convinced of the corrupting influence of all forms of power.  Control of a modern vehicle is no less intoxicating than any other kind of real power.  Segregation works for me.  As it does in those benign democracies where the vulnerable traveller is served by well-designed safe routes, not just legal protection.

                                      Ann


                                      To: charlie@...
                                      CC: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: colin@...
                                      Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:30:58 +0000
                                      Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                                       

                                       

                                      While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road. There seemed to be an element of responsibilty on the part of the driver, that he should move out of the way of the smaller and more vunerable cyclist, much like in sailing where the larger boat gives way.

                                       

                                      I just think that it is ownership of responsibilty, education and common sense on everyones part, segregation won't solve the underlying problems

                                      Col


                                      On 10 Mar 2010, at 14:55, "Charlie" <charlie@...> wrote:

                                       

                                      The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by lorries had not improved.
                                      The lorries have got bigger. They have got much higher, so the view of the road is restricted. They are almost twice as powerful, due to revised regulations. They are very much easier to drive with power steering, good brakes and easy gears.
                                      While the training of drivers has become longer and more complex the basic skills have become easier to achieve. There needs to be a complete re-think of how we train these drivers before letting them loose.

                                      Following another lorry x cyclist death in Hackney this morning Jenny Jones has asked on Twitter "why not ban lorries at morning peak?"

                                      --- In southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                                      > full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                                      > licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                                      > difficult-to-get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                                      > for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                                      > and acceleration.
                                      > Sally
                                      >
                                      > ann warren wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Vivian
                                      > >
                                      > > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                                      > > drive the more they get paid.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ann
                                      > >
                                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > From: vmcclew@...
                                      > > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                                      > > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                                      > > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                                      > >
                                      > > Vivian
                                      > > ---
                                      > > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                                      > > school". No Surrender
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                                      > > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                                      > > To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                      > >
                                      > > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401
                                      > > <http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401>
                                      > >
                                      > > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                                      > > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                                      > > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                                      > >
                                      > > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                                      > > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                                      > > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                                      > > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                                      > > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                                      > > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                                      > >
                                      > > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                                      > > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                                      > > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                                      > > Weston street going south.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                                      > > <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >

                                       

                                       


                                      Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now

                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2739 - Release Date: 03/11/10 21:50:00

                                    • Matt Beale-Collins
                                      Ann I agree with everything you say. People are rightly angry about what keeps happening and why it should be an occupational hazard. It s such a shockingly
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 12, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment

                                        Ann

                                        I agree with everything you say. People are rightly angry about what keeps happening and why it should be an occupational hazard. It's such a shockingly unnecessary loss of life.

                                        Matt Beale-Collins
                                        Climate Change Team
                                        Communities
                                        Surrey County Council
                                        KT1 2DY
                                        Office: 0208 541 8566
                                        BlackBerry: 07967536381
                                        Matt.b.collins@...


                                          From: ann warren [a_j_warren_se16@...]
                                          Sent: 12/03/2010 10:10 GMT
                                          To: Matt Beale-Collins; Southwark Cyclists <southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                                        Sorry Matt.  A period of respectful silence would of course be civilised.  But who will be next?

                                        It is more than ever urgent to break the pervading cyclists' dogma that segregation is always bad, sharing the road is always good and a 20mph limit will make everything safe.  (I don't think any of the lorries involved were doing 20mph.)  It's my view that this strong message from a vociferous section of the cycle lobby has allowed the authorities to resist investing in good infrastructure and has held back the cause of cycle safety in London for twenty years.  The inadequacy of the LCN is proof.

                                        Ann




                                        To: southwarkcyclists@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: matt.b.collins@...
                                        Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:32:28 +0000
                                        Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                                         


                                        Matt Beale-Collins
                                        Climate Change Team
                                        Communities
                                        Surrey County Council
                                        KT1 2DY
                                        Office: 0208 541 8566
                                        BlackBerry: 07967536381
                                        Matt.b.collins@ surreycc. gov.uk


                                          From: Matt Beale-Collins
                                          Sent: 12/03/2010 09:31 GMT
                                          To: "ann warren" <a_j_warren_se16@ hotmail.com>
                                          Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                                        I'm really feeling very sad for people close to this poor young woman and I wondered if we could agree a period of email silence after such awful events, in respect, but also to reflect on our own cycling lives and the daily risks we take.

                                        May her family and loved ones feel the support of this e-group.
                                        Matt Beale-Collins
                                        Climate Change Team
                                        Communities
                                        Surrey County Council
                                        KT1 2DY
                                        Office: 0208 541 8566
                                        BlackBerry: 07967536381
                                        Matt.b.collins@ surreycc. gov.uk


                                          From: ann warren [a_j_warren_ se16@hotmail. com]
                                          Sent: 12/03/2010 09:16 GMT
                                          To: <colin@colinjtaylor. co.uk>; <charlie@lcc. org.uk>
                                          Cc: Southwark Cyclists <southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                          Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1


                                        Ownership of responsibility, education and common sense on everyones part - why not?  Easy, surely?

                                        After sixty years of dogged optimism about human nature, I am thoroughly convinced of the corrupting influence of all forms of power.  Control of a modern vehicle is no less intoxicating than any other kind of real power.  Segregation works for me.  As it does in those benign democracies where the vulnerable traveller is served by well-designed safe routes, not just legal protection.

                                        Ann


                                        To: charlie@lcc. org.uk
                                        CC: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                        From: colin@colinjtaylor. co.uk
                                        Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:30:58 +0000
                                        Subject: Re: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1

                                         

                                        While I was cycling in Holland recently I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised when a lorry, that was waiting in a side road to pull out into the main road, reversed as I approached in the cycle lane, to let me pass without having to move into the road. There seemed to be an element of responsibilty on the part of the driver, that he should move out of the way of the smaller and more vunerable cyclist, much like in sailing where the larger boat gives way.

                                        I just think that it is ownership of responsibilty, education and common sense on everyones part, segregation won't solve the underlying problems

                                        Col

                                        On 10 Mar 2010, at 14:55, "Charlie" <charlie@lcc. org.uk> wrote:

                                         
                                        The statistics are clear enough. While the casualty rate for every other type of crash has declined dramatically over 20 years, the killing of cyclists by lorries had not improved.
                                        The lorries have got bigger. They have got much higher, so the view of the road is restricted. They are almost twice as powerful, due to revised regulations. They are very much easier to drive with power steering, good brakes and easy gears.
                                        While the training of drivers has become longer and more complex the basic skills have become easier to achieve. There needs to be a complete re-think of how we train these drivers before letting them loose.

                                        Following another lorry x cyclist death in Hackney this morning Jenny Jones has asked on Twitter "why not ban lorries at morning peak?"

                                        --- In southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@ ...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I wondered if they were also highly powered to carry large loads when
                                        > full but were travelling empty 50% of the time. Plus I wondered if their
                                        > licensing needed to be upgraded ie perhaps they should have more
                                        > difficult-to- get licenses. One would need statistics to show the need
                                        > for change. Over-riders on the acceleration would be good ie max speed
                                        > and acceleration.
                                        > Sally
                                        >
                                        > ann warren wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Vivian
                                        > >
                                        > > The drivers of skip lorries are paid by the load, so the faster they
                                        > > drive the more they get paid.
                                        > >
                                        > > Ann
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                        > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > From: vmcclew@...
                                        > > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:01:49 +0000
                                        > > Subject: RE: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Another tipper lorry!! Is it the way they drive or something?
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm not familiar with these streets, but google's streetview showed me
                                        > > very narrow streets. Are lorries allowed there?
                                        > >
                                        > > Vivian
                                        > > ---
                                        > > "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in
                                        > > school". No Surrender
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                        > > [mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>] On Behalf Of Oliver
                                        > > Sent: 09 March 2010 12:41
                                        > > To: southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > <mailto:southwarkcyclists@ yahoogroups. com>
                                        > > Subject: [Southwark Cyclists] Re: Another cyclist fatality in SE1
                                        > >
                                        > > Brief SE1 coverage here:
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401
                                        > > <http://www.london- se1.co.uk/ news/view/ 4401>
                                        > >
                                        > > This is tragic. I cycle this route every morning - with the exception of
                                        > > this morning when I avoided it to try a slightly different route (to get
                                        > > around the terrible potholes on Stainer street).
                                        > >
                                        > > The junction is narrow and suffers from poor visibility. And Weston
                                        > > street is effectively one way heading north due to parked cars - which
                                        > > doesn't stop vans, taxis, and HGVs hurtling through. Travelling south -
                                        > > with the majority of the traffic - is usually fine, but going North from
                                        > > Snowsfield is quite dangerous in the mornings, as it is fairly busy. And
                                        > > it is only this short section of the road which is so perilous.
                                        > >
                                        > > A part of me thinks that the increase in traffic (and danger) on the
                                        > > road is due to the one way system on St Thomas street (by the entrance
                                        > > to the Shard) which forces traffic either onto Tooley street, or down
                                        > > Weston street going south.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                        > > Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
                                        > > <http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/>
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                        > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/09/10 19:33:00
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >





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                                        The content may be personal or contain personal opinions and
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                                        The content may be personal or contain personal opinions and
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