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10K - Need to remove spindle.

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  • earl.white98
    Guys, I ve had a 9 for years but never removed the spindle on it either. No need to I guess. But now I have a 10K and I m changing over to V belts. So if
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 8 9:30 PM
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      Guys,

      I've had a 9 for years but never removed the spindle on it either.

      No need to I guess. But now I have a 10K and I'm changing over to V belts. So if anyone has a detailed proceedure for removing the spindle on a 10K it would be much appreciated.

      Earl
    • Ed S
      Earl, These instructions are in the southbend10k file section. You should look through the file sections here an in the southbendmanual group, lots of info
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 8 10:35 PM
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        Earl,

        These instructions are in the southbend10k file section. You should
        look through the file sections here an in the southbendmanual group,
        lots of info there.

        I copied them to here:



        How to remove the spindle for belt replacement. If

        you are just looking at your oil wicks skip 3&4.

        1. Remove the take up nut and washer behind it.

        2. With a lead hammer or hardwood block smack the spindle end
        driving toward the tailstock. The bull

        gear is pressed on once it breaks free the spindle

        will slide right out. A good idea is to chuck a

        small rod in the tailstock chuck and place into

        the spindle hole to catch the spindle in case it

        fly's out.

        3. How to remove the back gear quill.

        1. I scribed a line across the eccentric shaft

        and bushing on the way end to make lining back

        up when reassembling.

        2. Remove the 2 small bolt's.

        3. Remove the taper pin.

        4. Pull the shaft out watch for the spring clip's

        on the cover and remove the cover and quill gear.

        4. Replace the belt.

        5. Place 2 small nail's in the oil hole's above the

        oil cups. I removed the cup's and went in thru

        there with the nail's. Push down on the oil wick

        spring below the spindle hole before inserting nail's.

        6. Install everything in reverse from how you removed

        it.

        7. Install back gear quill gear along with the cover

        spring's and the cover.

        8. Line up the scribe line's on the eccentric

        shaft and replace taper pin.

        9. Tighten up 2 bolt's on eccentric shaft. If

        lathe pops out of back gear when running tighten

        the set screw a little.

        10. Remove nail's and reinstall oil cup's.
      • Earl White
        ED, I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that? There are parts holding
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 9 6:13 AM
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          ED,

            I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that? There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a problem for removal?

          I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V belt to put on.  I will give it a try.

          Thanks again!

          Earl White


          On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:35 PM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:
           

          Earl,

          These instructions are in the southbend10k file section. You should
          look through the file sections here an in the southbendmanual group,
          lots of info there.

          I copied them to here:

          How to remove the spindle for belt replacement. If

          you are just looking at your oil wicks skip 3&4.

          1. Remove the take up nut and washer behind it.

          2. With a lead hammer or hardwood block smack the spindle end
          driving toward the tailstock. The bull

          gear is pressed on once it breaks free the spindle

          will slide right out. A good idea is to chuck a

          small rod in the tailstock chuck and place into

          the spindle hole to catch the spindle in case it

          fly's out.

          3. How to remove the back gear quill.

          1. I scribed a line across the eccentric shaft

          and bushing on the way end to make lining back

          up when reassembling.

          2. Remove the 2 small bolt's.

          3. Remove the taper pin.

          4. Pull the shaft out watch for the spring clip's

          on the cover and remove the cover and quill gear.

          4. Replace the belt.

          5. Place 2 small nail's in the oil hole's above the

          oil cups. I removed the cup's and went in thru

          there with the nail's. Push down on the oil wick

          spring below the spindle hole before inserting nail's.

          6. Install everything in reverse from how you removed

          it.

          7. Install back gear quill gear along with the cover

          spring's and the cover.

          8. Line up the scribe line's on the eccentric

          shaft and replace taper pin.

          9. Tighten up 2 bolt's on eccentric shaft. If

          lathe pops out of back gear when running tighten

          the set screw a little.

          10. Remove nail's and reinstall oil cup's.


        • John Dunbar
          Earl   I have removed my 10k spindle many times with little problem.  I have used pipe clamps to press the spindle out of the gears, which works ok.  The
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 9 6:56 AM
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            Earl
             
            I have removed my 10k spindle many times with little problem.  I have used pipe clamps to press the spindle out of the gears, which works ok.  The only issue I have is there is no guidance on how to adjust the bearing expanders.  Also there is no vent hole to hold the wicks down when you install the spindle.  I remove the gits oilers and insert a wire through them to hold the wicks down, but it takes alot of compression and seems to push the wicks through the spring and worries me that the spring is going to score the spindle.
             
            John

            From: Earl White <ewew921@...>
            To: southbend10k@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 9:13 AM
            Subject: Re: [southbend10k] 10K - Need to remove spindle.
             
            ED,
              I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that? There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a problem for removal?
            I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V belt to put on.  I will give it a try.
            Thanks again!
            Earl White

             
          • Jim B.
            Between step 1 and step 2, I would loosen the bolts that tighten the bearings. Jim B. Owner http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10/
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 9 7:57 AM
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              Between step 1 and step 2, I would loosen the bolts that tighten the bearings.

               

              Jim B.
              Owner
              http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10/
              http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10files/
              co-owner.
              NJ_LoganLatheOwners@yahoogroups.com
              moderator
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/
              Projects_For_Home_Shop_Metal_Fabricators

               

            • Ed S
              Earl, I do not have a 10K. How many bolts are holding down one bearing cap? Ed S
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 9 10:46 AM
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                Earl,

                I do not have a 10K. How many bolts are holding down one bearing cap?

                Ed S

                At 09:13 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                >
                >
                >ED,
                >
                > I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in
                > the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that?
                > There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear
                > engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a
                > problem for removal?
                >
                >I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V
                >belt to put on. I will give it a try.
                >
                >Thanks again!
                >
                >Earl White
              • Ed S
                John, Something does not sound right. There should be vent holes above the gits oilers. Look again they may be full of crud and painted over. Ed S
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 9 10:49 AM
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                  John,

                  Something does not sound right. There should be vent holes above the
                  gits oilers. Look again they may be full of crud and painted over.

                  Ed S

                  At 09:56 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >Earl
                  >
                  >I have removed my 10k spindle many times with little problem. I
                  >have used pipe clamps to press the spindle out of the gears, which
                  >works ok. The only issue I have is there is no guidance on how to
                  >adjust the bearing expanders. Also there is no vent hole to hold
                  >the wicks down when you install the spindle. I remove the gits
                  >oilers and insert a wire through them to hold the wicks down, but it
                  >takes alot of compression and seems to push the wicks through the
                  >spring and worries me that the spring is going to score the spindle.
                  >
                  >John
                • Earl White
                  Ed and John, I got the spindle out fine, and the main bearings are pretty much OK. I have a little hot oil patch on the front inner bronze bearing that doesn t
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 9 10:49 AM
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                    Ed and John,

                      I got the spindle out fine, and the main bearings are pretty much OK. I have a little hot oil patch on the front inner bronze bearing that doesn't want to rub off with paper towel, so I will leave it for now. The spindle has a little scoring on the surface that goes under the pulley, but it's not raised like a real burr, so I might just rub it down with some valve lapping compound or leave it too. that surface only gets used in back gear anyway, and it's not such a precision fit like the main bearings.

                    I noticed that the old flat belt pulley had a hole in it with a screw that said "grease". the new V belt pulley says "oil" so I'm wondering why SB seems to have changed their minds on that issue.

                    The oiler wicks- I bought new ones for this overhaul and they are being held down with MIG wire thru the front and rear weep holes directly in line with the spindle.
                    The wire penetrates the wick like a skewer from the side, and this seems to keep the wick from loosening inside the coil of the spring.

                    I am using solid .025" mig wire, but I think it's a little too flexible and I would go to .035" if I had some.  It's a good idea to snip a real sharp point on the end of the wire so that it can go thru the wick easier.

                    There was some surface rust on the back gears and shaft and I took that off with the wire brush. I really don't like rusty gears, and even with the slight abrasive action of the wire wheel, I figure it's better than letting the rust grind away at the mating gear.

                    Earl


                    On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:56 AM, John Dunbar <jdunbar_4@...> wrote:
                     

                    Earl
                     
                    I have removed my 10k spindle many times with little problem.  I have used pipe clamps to press the spindle out of the gears, which works ok.  The only issue I have is there is no guidance on how to adjust the bearing expanders.  Also there is no vent hole to hold the wicks down when you install the spindle.  I remove the gits oilers and insert a wire through them to hold the wicks down, but it takes alot of compression and seems to push the wicks through the spring and worries me that the spring is going to score the spindle.
                     
                    John

                    From: Earl White <ewew921@...>
                    To: southbend10k@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 9:13 AM
                    Subject: Re: [southbend10k] 10K - Need to remove spindle.
                     
                    ED,
                      I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that? There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a problem for removal?
                    I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V belt to put on.  I will give it a try.
                    Thanks again!
                    Earl White

                     


                  • Ed S
                    Earl, I knew it had to come up... oil vs grease. So here is the story. A long time ago in the land of south bend.... all cone pulleys used oil. This oil
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 9 11:21 AM
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                      Earl,

                      I knew it had to come up... oil vs grease. So here is the story.

                      A long time ago in the land of south bend.... all cone pulleys used
                      oil. This oil would be applied by removing the screw in the cone
                      pulley and dripping it in. It should be oiled per 8 hr shift if using
                      the back gear because the cone has to slip on the spindle at a different speed.

                      Well employers complained that it took to much work time to do that,
                      so SBL found a very special grease with a very special additive to
                      use. I forget the name but Steve Wells sells it. If you use this
                      grease you only have to grease it once a year. SBL instructions were
                      to pump it in the hole marked grease, but users found the clearance
                      was so tight that the grease did not distribute properly. So a better
                      way is to take the spindle out of the cone and hand apply the grease
                      all over the surface then re-assemble. Not too many folks want to do
                      that so most of us use oil to this day.

                      It pretty much depends on how often you use the back gear. In either
                      case you need to use the proper oil or grease as specified by SBL.
                      No auto transmission fluid, 10W or silicone grease from Harbor
                      Freight.... the grease SBL specified is more like thick oil then
                      grease. I know half the folks will say it doesn't matter, they have
                      been using hog grease for years. That's ok ... I am just the messenger.

                      To find the name of the grease look at a late model SBL oiling chart,
                      it is mentioned at the bottom. I have some, it does not work well in
                      my Ford transmission though. ;} (tongue in cheek)

                      Oh and also if your cone says grease you can use the proper oil
                      instead, the grease thing is optional. And vice versa.

                      Ed S

                      PS this is the only place on the lathe you should use
                      grease... maybe on a dead center but white lead is preferred. Try
                      and buy some white lead today.... especially on the left coast.



                      At 01:49 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >Ed and John,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >I noticed that the old flat belt pulley had a hole in it with a
                      >screw that said "grease". the new V belt pulley says "oil" so I'm
                      >wondering why SB seems to have changed their minds on that issue.
                      >
                      >Earl
                    • John Dunbar
                      They are there but the angle up above the wicks. Sent from my iPhone
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 9 1:06 PM
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                        They are there but the angle up above the wicks.

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Jul 9, 2013, at 1:49 PM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:

                         

                        John,

                        Something does not sound right. There should be vent holes above the
                        gits oilers. Look again they may be full of crud and painted over.

                        Ed S

                        At 09:56 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >Earl
                        >
                        >I have removed my 10k spindle many times with little problem. I
                        >have used pipe clamps to press the spindle out of the gears, which
                        >works ok. The only issue I have is there is no guidance on how to
                        >adjust the bearing expanders. Also there is no vent hole to hold
                        >the wicks down when you install the spindle. I remove the gits
                        >oilers and insert a wire through them to hold the wicks down, but it
                        >takes alot of compression and seems to push the wicks through the
                        >spring and worries me that the spring is going to score the spindle.
                        >
                        >John

                      • Earl White
                        Ed, No worries Ed, I got the spindle back in and it even spins! The 10K has just one pinch bolt for each bearing, just like the 9. there are 2 other holes on
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 9 1:12 PM
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                          Ed,

                             No worries Ed, I got the spindle back in and it even spins!  The 10K has just one pinch bolt for each bearing, just like the 9. there are 2 other holes on the far side of the bearing housing and I think these hold the bronze bushings in place. They hold more grub screws I believe.

                          Besides the MIG wire (I found some .035 and it does work better) wire, I put a paint mark on the spindle flange and another on the bull gear where the keyway is so that when the key touches the bull gear, it will be lined up really close.

                          And it did line up perfectly on the first try.

                          I did a quick adjustment on the back gear cam so that the gears have some room to move, and it's looking and feeling pretty sweet right now.

                          You can pull the spindle through in back gear with your fingers, so it can't be too far off.

                          Question-

                          I pushed the spindle back in with the tailstock and a pipe cone center. That was nice because it centered the spindle and pushed with lots of mechanical advantage.

                          But I don't know how much distance there should be behind the spindle nose flange. I left about .030" from the back surface of the flange to the front surface of the headstock casting.

                          I took out all the X axis play with the threaded ring and then backed off the tension a bit and locked down the ring.

                          Everything seems pretty happy.


                          I'm still cleaning crud off here and there, but it's starting to look like a lathe now.

                          Earl
                          ""


                          On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:
                           

                          Earl,

                          I do not have a 10K. How many bolts are holding down one bearing cap?

                          Ed S



                          At 09:13 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >ED,
                          >
                          > I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in
                          > the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that?
                          > There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear
                          > engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a
                          > problem for removal?
                          >
                          >I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V
                          >belt to put on. I will give it a try.
                          >
                          >Thanks again!
                          >
                          >Earl White


                        • Earl White
                          Ed, I will look again for the vent holes you mentioned. I think this lathe has been owner painted, so maybe they did paint over the vent holes? Oil vs Grease-
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 9 1:20 PM
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                            Ed,

                              I will look again for the vent holes you mentioned. I think this lathe has been owner painted, so maybe they did paint over the vent holes?

                            Oil vs Grease-

                            I took the grease out and put medium weight spindle oil in. If I was running flat belts I would be cringing with all that oil, but as it is, no problem.

                            Earl White


                            On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Earl White <ewew921@...> wrote:
                            Ed,

                               No worries Ed, I got the spindle back in and it even spins!  The 10K has just one pinch bolt for each bearing, just like the 9. there are 2 other holes on the far side of the bearing housing and I think these hold the bronze bushings in place. They hold more grub screws I believe.

                            Besides the MIG wire (I found some .035 and it does work better) wire, I put a paint mark on the spindle flange and another on the bull gear where the keyway is so that when the key touches the bull gear, it will be lined up really close.

                            And it did line up perfectly on the first try.

                            I did a quick adjustment on the back gear cam so that the gears have some room to move, and it's looking and feeling pretty sweet right now.

                            You can pull the spindle through in back gear with your fingers, so it can't be too far off.

                            Question-

                            I pushed the spindle back in with the tailstock and a pipe cone center. That was nice because it centered the spindle and pushed with lots of mechanical advantage.

                            But I don't know how much distance there should be behind the spindle nose flange. I left about .030" from the back surface of the flange to the front surface of the headstock casting.

                            I took out all the X axis play with the threaded ring and then backed off the tension a bit and locked down the ring.

                            Everything seems pretty happy.


                            I'm still cleaning crud off here and there, but it's starting to look like a lathe now.

                            Earl
                            ""


                            On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:
                             

                            Earl,

                            I do not have a 10K. How many bolts are holding down one bearing cap?

                            Ed S



                            At 09:13 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >ED,
                            >
                            > I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in
                            > the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that?
                            > There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear
                            > engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a
                            > problem for removal?
                            >
                            >I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V
                            >belt to put on. I will give it a try.
                            >
                            >Thanks again!
                            >
                            >Earl White



                          • Ed S
                            John, I missed this earlier. Bearing expanders go in from the very top of the bearing cap. If you have a screw that goes in at an angle at the back of the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 9 1:20 PM
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                              John,

                              I missed this earlier. Bearing expanders go in from the very top of
                              the bearing cap. If you have a screw that goes in at an angle at the
                              back of the bearing cap, that is a bearing locator and just holds the
                              bearing in place. It goes in snug.

                              Picture would sure help to clear things up.

                              The vent holes usually go straight in or at a downward angle, There
                              have been cases where holes have been drilled incorrectly.

                              Ed S





                              >>At 09:56 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                              >>. The only issue I have is there is no guidance on how to
                              >> >adjust the bearing expanders.



                              >> >John
                            • Ed S
                              Earl, There should be a steel or felt washer between the take up nut and the rear of the head stock. I believe the steel washer has a locating pin to the head
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 9 1:31 PM
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                                Earl,

                                There should be a steel or felt washer between the take up nut and
                                the rear of the head stock. I believe the steel washer has a locating
                                pin to the head stock so it does not spin. This has to be oiled
                                regularly along with the thrust ball bearing inside the head stock.
                                Some folks have put a needle bearing in to replace the take up felt washer.

                                I think the spindle nose flange should be as close as possible. You
                                do not want any chips to get in there. People have found all sorts of
                                nasty things in the front bearing.

                                Sounds like you are making progress.

                                Ed S
                              • Ed S
                                Earl, Lathe operators have used oil in the bearings and flat belts for over 100 years and it works. I still do not understand why you get so much oil on the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 9 1:37 PM
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                                  Earl,

                                  Lathe operators have used oil in the bearings and flat belts for over
                                  100 years and it works. I still do not understand why you get so much
                                  oil on the top of the cone pulley. There has to be another problem.

                                  You do have a tight fitting screw in the cone pulley where you oil
                                  it. I believe you are making a v-belt pulley for the spindle, it
                                  also would need an oil hole and screw/plug.

                                  Ed S

                                  At 04:20 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Ed,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >I took the grease out and put medium weight spindle oil in. If I was
                                  >running flat belts I would be cringing with all that oil, but as it
                                  >is, no problem.
                                  >
                                  >Earl White
                                • guycad@netzero.com
                                  One of the bronze bearing in the spindle might be offset. When you dismantle the spindle, ensure the bronze bearing is centered and all oil path are free of
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 9 1:51 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    One of the bronze bearing in the spindle might be offset.  When you dismantle the spindle, ensure the bronze bearing is centered and all oil path are free of obstruction.
                                     


                                    ---------- Original Message ----------
                                    From: Ed S <eschwerkolt@...>
                                    To: southbend10k@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [southbend10k] 10K - Need to remove spindle.
                                    Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 16:37:31 -0400

                                     

                                    Earl,

                                    Lathe operators have used oil in the bearings and flat belts for over
                                    100 years and it works. I still do not understand why you get so much
                                    oil on the top of the cone pulley. There has to be another problem.

                                    You do have a tight fitting screw in the cone pulley where you oil
                                    it. I believe you are making a v-belt pulley for the spindle, it
                                    also would need an oil hole and screw/plug.

                                    Ed S

                                    At 04:20 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Ed,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >I took the grease out and put medium weight spindle oil in. If I was
                                    >running flat belts I would be cringing with all that oil, but as it
                                    >is, no problem.
                                    >
                                    >Earl White

                                     

                                     



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                                  • Ron Loosemore
                                    ________________________________ From: Earl White To: southbend10k@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 4:20:02 PM Subject: Re:
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 9 3:53 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment


                                      From: Earl White <ewew921@...>
                                      To: southbend10k@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 4:20:02 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [southbend10k] 10K - Need to remove spindle.
                                       
                                      Ed,
                                        I will look again for the vent holes you mentioned. I think this lathe has been owner painted, so maybe they did paint over the vent holes?
                                      Oil vs Grease-
                                      I took the grease out and put medium weight spindle oil in. If I was running flat belts I would be cringing with all that oil, but as it is, no problem.
                                      Earl White
                                      On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Earl White <ewew921@...> wrote:
                                      Ed,
                                         No worries Ed, I got the spindle back in and it even spins!  The 10K has just one pinch bolt for each bearing, just like the 9. there are 2 other holes on the far side of the bearing housing and I think these hold the bronze bushings in place. They hold more grub screws I believe.
                                      Besides the MIG wire (I found some .035 and it does work better) wire, I put a paint mark on the spindle flange and another on the bull gear where the keyway is so that when the key touches the bull gear, it will be lined up really close.
                                      And it did line up perfectly on the first try.
                                      I did a quick adjustment on the back gear cam so that the gears have some room to move, and it's looking and feeling pretty sweet right now.
                                      You can pull the spindle through in back gear with your fingers, so it can't be too far off.
                                      Question-
                                      I pushed the spindle back in with the tailstock and a pipe cone center. That was nice because it centered the spindle and pushed with lots of mechanical advantage.
                                      But I don't know how much distance there should be behind the spindle nose flange. I left about .030" from the back surface of the flange to the front surface of the headstock casting.
                                      I took out all the X axis play with the threaded ring and then backed off the tension a bit and locked down the ring.
                                      Everything seems pretty happy.
                                      I'm still cleaning crud off here and there, but it's starting to look like a lathe now.
                                      Earl
                                      ""
                                      On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Earl,

                                      I do not have a 10K. How many bolts are holding down one bearing cap?

                                      Ed S
                                      At 09:13 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote: > > >ED, > > I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in > the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that? > There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear > engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a > problem for removal? > >I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V >belt to put on. I will give it a try. > >Thanks again! > >Earl White
                                    • John Dunbar
                                      Earl Are you talking about the holes right above the gits oilers? (where you inserted the wire to hold the wicks) I use the grease from Steve Wells not because
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 9 3:55 PM
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                                        Earl

                                        Are you talking about the holes right above the gits oilers? (where you inserted the wire to hold the wicks)

                                        I use the grease from Steve Wells not because I want to, but because I can't get oil through the cone pulley.  I even made a high pressure oil gun and it will not go in.  

                                        Thanks
                                        John

                                        Sent from my iPad

                                        On Jul 9, 2013, at 1:49 PM, Earl White <ewew921@...> wrote:

                                         

                                        Ed and John,

                                          I got the spindle out fine, and the main bearings are pretty much OK. I have a little hot oil patch on the front inner bronze bearing that doesn't want to rub off with paper towel, so I will leave it for now. The spindle has a little scoring on the surface that goes under the pulley, but it's not raised like a real burr, so I might just rub it down with some valve lapping compound or leave it too. that surface only gets used in back gear anyway, and it's not such a precision fit like the main bearings.

                                        I noticed that the old flat belt pulley had a hole in it with a screw that said "grease". the new V belt pulley says "oil" so I'm wondering why SB seems to have changed their minds on that issue.

                                        The oiler wicks- I bought new ones for this overhaul and they are being held down with MIG wire thru the front and rear weep holes directly in line with the spindle.
                                        The wire penetrates the wick like a skewer from the side, and this seems to keep the wick from loosening inside the coil of the spring.

                                        I am using solid .025" mig wire, but I think it's a little too flexible and I would go to .035" if I had some.  It's a good idea to snip a real sharp point on the end of the wire so that it can go thru the wick easier.

                                        There was some surface rust on the back gears and shaft and I took that off with the wire brush. I really don't like rusty gears, and even with the slight abrasive action of the wire wheel, I figure it's better than letting the rust grind away at the mating gear.

                                        Earl


                                        On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:56 AM, John Dunbar <jdunbar_4@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        Earl
                                         
                                        I have removed my 10k spindle many times with little problem.  I have used pipe clamps to press the spindle out of the gears, which works ok.  The only issue I have is there is no guidance on how to adjust the bearing expanders.  Also there is no vent hole to hold the wicks down when you install the spindle.  I remove the gits oilers and insert a wire through them to hold the wicks down, but it takes alot of compression and seems to push the wicks through the spring and worries me that the spring is going to score the spindle.
                                         
                                        John

                                        From: Earl White <ewew921@...>
                                        To: southbend10k@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 9:13 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [southbend10k] 10K - Need to remove spindle.
                                         
                                        ED,
                                          I found the instructions you mentioned (after I already sent in the email) , but it seems like there would be more to it than that? There are parts holding in the bushings, and there is the bull gear engagement pin. And the oil wick springs. I guess none if that is a problem for removal?
                                        I won't be disturbing the back gear assembly as I have a link belt V belt to put on.  I will give it a try.
                                        Thanks again!
                                        Earl White

                                         


                                      • John Dunbar
                                        Ed The bearing expander is dovetail shaped and as you tighten the cap screw, it expands the bearing. They strip out very easily(don t ask how I know). I m not
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 9 4:02 PM
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                                          Ed

                                          The bearing expander is dovetail shaped and as you tighten the cap screw, it expands the bearing.  They strip out very easily(don't ask how I know).

                                          I'm not sure how much the bearing is supposed to be expanded.

                                          My vent holes angle up on a 45 degree angle and point toward the middle of the bearing.  Can I redrill this straight in?

                                          Sent from my iPad

                                          On Jul 9, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:

                                           


                                          John,

                                          I missed this earlier. Bearing expanders go in from the very top of
                                          the bearing cap. If you have a screw that goes in at an angle at the
                                          back of the bearing cap, that is a bearing locator and just holds the
                                          bearing in place. It goes in snug.

                                          Picture would sure help to clear things up.

                                          The vent holes usually go straight in or at a downward angle, There
                                          have been cases where holes have been drilled incorrectly.

                                          Ed S

                                          >>At 09:56 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                                          >>. The only issue I have is there is no guidance on how to
                                          >> >adjust the bearing expanders.

                                          >> >John

                                        • Ed S
                                          John, Which lathe do you have? Ed S
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 9 4:10 PM
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                                            John,

                                            Which lathe do you have?


                                            Ed S

                                            At 07:02 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Ed
                                            >
                                            >The bearing expander is dovetail shaped and as you tighten the cap
                                            >screw, it expands the bearing. They strip out very easily(don't ask
                                            >how I know).
                                            >
                                            >I'm not sure how much the bearing is supposed to be expanded.
                                            >
                                            >My vent holes angle up on a 45 degree angle and point toward the
                                            >middle of the bearing. Can I redrill this straight in?
                                          • John Dunbar
                                            10k Sent from my iPad
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 9 4:12 PM
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                                              10k

                                              Sent from my iPad

                                              On Jul 9, 2013, at 7:10 PM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:

                                               

                                              John,

                                              Which lathe do you have?

                                              Ed S

                                              At 07:02 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >Ed
                                              >
                                              >The bearing expander is dovetail shaped and as you tighten the cap
                                              >screw, it expands the bearing. They strip out very easily(don't ask
                                              >how I know).
                                              >
                                              >I'm not sure how much the bearing is supposed to be expanded.
                                              >
                                              >My vent holes angle up on a 45 degree angle and point toward the
                                              >middle of the bearing. Can I redrill this straight in?

                                            • Jim B.
                                              I m not sure how much the bearing is supposed to be expanded. John; see attached. Jim B. Owner http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10/
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 9 4:25 PM

                                              I'm not sure how much the bearing is supposed to be expanded.

                                               

                                               

                                              John; see attached.

                                               

                                              Jim B.
                                              Owner
                                              http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10/
                                              http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10files/
                                              co-owner.
                                              NJ_LoganLatheOwners@yahoogroups.com
                                              moderator
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/
                                              Projects_For_Home_Shop_Metal_Fabricators

                                               

                                            • John Dunbar
                                              Jim Is this just to keep the bearing from spinning? I thought it was to spread the bearing to allow for clearance. Thanks John Sent from my iPad
                                              Message 23 of 28 , Jul 9 4:37 PM
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                                                Jim

                                                Is this just to keep the bearing from spinning?  I thought it was to spread the bearing to allow for clearance.

                                                Thanks

                                                John

                                                Sent from my iPad

                                                On Jul 9, 2013, at 7:25 PM, "Jim B. " <btdtrf@...> wrote:

                                                 

                                                I'm not sure how much the bearing is supposed to be expanded.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                John; see attached.

                                                 

                                                Jim B.
                                                Owner
                                                http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10/
                                                http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendheavy10files/
                                                co-owner.
                                                NJ_LoganLatheOwners@yahoogroups.com
                                                moderator
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/
                                                Projects_For_Home_Shop_Metal_Fabricators

                                                 

                                              • Ed S
                                                John, I looked up the parts drawing for the 10K. I see that part 17 is labeled expander. Most people call that a locator or bearing lock to keep the bearing
                                                Message 24 of 28 , Jul 9 5:36 PM
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                                                  John,

                                                  I looked up the parts drawing for the 10K.  I see that part 17 is labeled expander. Most people call that a locator or bearing lock to keep the bearing from spinning. It should be snugged up.

                                                  On your lathe there should be one main bolt holding the bearing cap down and two screws angled toward the back to hold the "expander".

                                                  Go to this site and look at "How to adjust headstock spindle bearings on 9 and 10K lathes."  See step 6

                                                  http://www.wswells.com/data/repair_index.htm

                                                  I guess it is a matter of samantics... whatever we call it is should be snugged up moderately tight. But if you say bearing expander, most will think heavy 10.

                                                  Ed S

                                                • Earl White
                                                  Ed, John Thanks for the info on the spindle nose. I will push the spindle on back as close as I can. I have some .001 shim stock I can use for a gauge. I guess
                                                  Message 25 of 28 , Jul 9 7:28 PM
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                                                    Ed, John

                                                      Thanks for the info on the spindle nose. I will push the spindle on back as close as I can. I have some .001 shim stock I can use for a gauge.

                                                    I guess the thrust bearing should be taking most of the load from the tailstock, but I don't know if this would be visible from the top. 

                                                    I didn't take any measurements on the spindle, as I was so happy to have the headstock back together that fast, and so far so good.

                                                    I did put the thrust washer back under the take up nut. It was the only washer I have seen that had a single round protrusion on it that fits into a hole in the right hand side of the tensioner nut.

                                                    This 10K of mine was pretty grimy. I guess it will take a few more weeks till I can go thru everything and make sure I'm not going to damage something by normal operation.

                                                    I don't know if I should work on the apron next or the QC gearbox. I'm sure they are equally full of crud.

                                                    I think it would be a good time to buy a parts washer if I could get one fairly cheap. I don't do teardowns very often and I'm doing all the cleaning with a toothbrush or a wire wheel on a grinder.

                                                    Earl White


                                                    On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    Earl,

                                                    There should be a steel or felt washer between the take up nut and
                                                    the rear of the head stock. I believe the steel washer has a locating
                                                    pin to the head stock so it does not spin. This has to be oiled
                                                    regularly along with the thrust ball bearing inside the head stock.
                                                    Some folks have put a needle bearing in to replace the take up felt washer.

                                                    I think the spindle nose flange should be as close as possible. You
                                                    do not want any chips to get in there. People have found all sorts of
                                                    nasty things in the front bearing.

                                                    Sounds like you are making progress.

                                                    Ed S


                                                  • earl.white98
                                                    ... I need to clarify a bit for you. My old 9 was a top oiler, so you could put more in than it was designed to hold. I never took the spindle out of it to
                                                    Message 26 of 28 , Jul 9 8:51 PM
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                                                      --- In southbend10k@yahoogroups.com, "guycad@..." <guycad@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > One of the bronze bearing in the spindle might be offset. When you dismantle the spindle, ensure the bronze bearing is centered and all oil path are free of obstruction.
                                                      >
                                                      > ---------- Original Message ----------
                                                      > From: Ed S <eschwerkolt@...>
                                                      > To: southbend10k@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [southbend10k] 10K - Need to remove spindle.
                                                      > Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 16:37:31 -0400
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Earl,
                                                      >
                                                      > Lathe operators have used oil in the bearings and flat belts for over
                                                      > 100 years and it works. I still do not understand why you get so much
                                                      > oil on the top of the cone pulley. There has to be another problem.
                                                      >
                                                      > You do have a tight fitting screw in the cone pulley where you oil
                                                      > it. I believe you are making a v-belt pulley for the spindle, it
                                                      > also would need an oil hole and screw/plug.
                                                      >
                                                      > Ed S
                                                      >
                                                      > At 04:20 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >Ed,
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >I took the grease out and put medium weight spindle oil in. If I was
                                                      > >running flat belts I would be cringing with all that oil, but as it
                                                      > >is, no problem.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >Earl White
                                                      >
                                                      > Guys,

                                                      I need to clarify a bit for you. My old 9 was a top oiler, so you could put more in than it was designed to hold. I never took the spindle out of it to find out what was going on. Somebody said poorly fitting bearing shims. It leaked oil out of both ends and the middle.

                                                      There was some wear in the cast iron bearings or the spindle or both.

                                                      I was never able to really be sure how much oil was in there, so I erred on the heavy side of too much.

                                                      The side oiler is a lot more user friendly in that you can look at the oil level and see how much is in there.

                                                      By the way, I just went back to the shop and pushed the spindle all the way back as far as it would go, and there is still some gap behind what I thought was the spindle shoulder, but is in fact just the spindle "protector ring" which looks like it is a press fit over the spindle shoulder. My 9 didn't have one of those either.

                                                      Anyway, the spindle is now firmly seated and the take up nut was given another adjustment to take up the slack. I tightened the adjuster nut clamping screw and the main bearing pinch bolts again.

                                                      That should do it for this go around. The 10K is now a V belt machine all the way and it runs real quiet.

                                                      Jim B - Sorry I couldn't pass up on the stock replacement pulley for the counter shaft. I had to do some horse trading with the Ebayer, but it finally worked.

                                                      What happened was that the same seller I bought the head stock pulley from happended to also have the matching counter shaft pulley.

                                                      I asked him about this possibility, but he said that he wanted to sell the whole countershaft assembly as a unit instead of taking parts off of it. This would have been 200.00 with the shipping.

                                                      So that's when I sort of gave up trying to find an original factory part and started talking to Jim about making one from scratch.


                                                      Ziggy was helping too and I still have all the numbers If I got a wild hair and decided to build my own.

                                                      Anyway, I had a thought in the middle of the night and decided to offer the seller my old flat belt pulley and 75.00 for the V belt pulley he had on the assembly.

                                                      Much to my surprise, he took the offer and set up a sale on Ebay for me. I sent him my old flat belt pulley and did the deal, and the result is a 10K with V belt drive.

                                                      I bought a new 5L super twist V belt for the conversion, and this was not a substitute for anything I already had, as My 10K came with no belt at all.

                                                      So today was the first day that the spindle turned under real V belt power.
                                                      I had been playing with the old V belt from the 9 which was only running against the flat belt pulleys for about the last 10 years.

                                                      It seemed to work somewhat, and I had no idea that it could have been better, so I took small cuts and lived with it.

                                                      The straight edge trick that SB has in the manual doesn't work too well for a V belt system as there are no flat vertical surfaces on either end to work with a straight edge.

                                                      So what I did was put the V belt on the 2nd speed from the left end and clamped the straight edge outside the large pulley on the counter shaft.

                                                      This left about a 1" gap between the straight edge and the edge of the belt. If you sight down the tensioned up belt, you can see whether the straight edge is closer at one end or the other, or it is parallel in which case, you are lined up.
                                                      I am still cleaning individual parts and killing lots of paper towels and Purple Power degreaser.
                                                      >
                                                      > So tomorrow I will probably tackle the apron and get the leadscrew really cleaned up and lubricated.


                                                      i am guessing, but I think the QC gearbox can wait another day or two.


                                                      Earl White










                                                      >
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                                                    • Ed S
                                                      Hi Earl, The top oilers are called total loss oil systems. There is no reservoir to hold the oil. Well there are felts along the spindle to wipe the oil onto
                                                      Message 27 of 28 , Jul 9 10:10 PM
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                                                        Hi Earl,

                                                        The top oilers are called total loss oil systems. There is no
                                                        reservoir to hold the oil. Well there are felts along the spindle to
                                                        wipe the oil onto the spindle and they do hold some oil. You put it
                                                        in the top and yes it all leaks out. It is supposed to. There is no
                                                        place else for it to go. Some folks use slow drip oilers. So maybe
                                                        you were putting in to much oil, hard to say. But the test for the
                                                        spindle clearance is the SB lift test. There should be about .001
                                                        clearance between the spindle and the bearings. This is adjusted by
                                                        adding or removing shims.

                                                        The theory was they way the bearings are designed a film of oil would
                                                        form between the spindle and the bearing and they would not touch, so
                                                        with the proper clearance, the proper felts and the proper oil, the
                                                        spindle should not wear.

                                                        The side oilers still leak a little, it actually lubes other parts.
                                                        But most of the oil goes back into the reservoir along with crude so
                                                        you have to clean it out once in awhile.

                                                        Good to hear you got your v-belt drive working.

                                                        Ed S


                                                        At 11:51 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:

                                                        >I need to clarify a bit for you. My old 9 was a top oiler, so you
                                                        >could put more in than it was designed to hold. I never took the
                                                        >spindle out of it to find out what was going on. Somebody said
                                                        >poorly fitting bearing shims. It leaked oil out of both ends and the middle.
                                                        >
                                                        >There was some wear in the cast iron bearings or the spindle or both.
                                                        >
                                                        >I was never able to really be sure how much oil was in there, so I
                                                        >erred on the heavy side of too much.
                                                      • Earl White
                                                        Ed, The top oiler is a total loss system. That makes sense. I was going to pull the spindle and have a look for a lot of years on that one an I never did.
                                                        Message 28 of 28 , Jul 10 7:47 AM
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                                                          Ed,

                                                            The top oiler is a total loss system. That makes sense. I was going to pull the spindle and have a look for a lot of years on that one an I never did. Well, It's hard to tell how much oil is in there and so you just have to oil it till it leaks out again. Like a Ford.

                                                          Thanks Ed

                                                          Now it's off to the shop again and I'm cleaning the gears on the left end and re-assembling them, then the apron and leadscrew cleanup, then the cross slide leadscrew........

                                                          I can see why some guys dunk the whole thing in solvent and then take it apart. Much easier.

                                                          EW


                                                          On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:
                                                           

                                                          Hi Earl,

                                                          The top oilers are called total loss oil systems. There is no
                                                          reservoir to hold the oil. Well there are felts along the spindle to
                                                          wipe the oil onto the spindle and they do hold some oil. You put it
                                                          in the top and yes it all leaks out. It is supposed to. There is no
                                                          place else for it to go. Some folks use slow drip oilers. So maybe
                                                          you were putting in to much oil, hard to say. But the test for the
                                                          spindle clearance is the SB lift test. There should be about .001
                                                          clearance between the spindle and the bearings. This is adjusted by
                                                          adding or removing shims.

                                                          The theory was they way the bearings are designed a film of oil would
                                                          form between the spindle and the bearing and they would not touch, so
                                                          with the proper clearance, the proper felts and the proper oil, the
                                                          spindle should not wear.

                                                          The side oilers still leak a little, it actually lubes other parts.
                                                          But most of the oil goes back into the reservoir along with crude so
                                                          you have to clean it out once in awhile.

                                                          Good to hear you got your v-belt drive working.

                                                          Ed S



                                                          At 11:51 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:

                                                          >I need to clarify a bit for you. My old 9 was a top oiler, so you
                                                          >could put more in than it was designed to hold. I never took the
                                                          >spindle out of it to find out what was going on. Somebody said
                                                          >poorly fitting bearing shims. It leaked oil out of both ends and the middle.
                                                          >
                                                          >There was some wear in the cast iron bearings or the spindle or both.
                                                          >
                                                          >I was never able to really be sure how much oil was in there, so I
                                                          >erred on the heavy side of too much.


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