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Re: question concerning Amy Rose

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  • Nigel Kitching
    Ed: Hey Nigel. As always, it s interesting to hear your side of the story. My side of the story? What are you implying you little whipper-snapper? That there
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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      Ed:
       
      "Hey Nigel. As always, it's interesting to hear your side of the
      story."
       
      My side of the story? What are you implying you little whipper-snapper? That there might be another side? That every word that I write might not be the absolute truth?

      "Have you got any news on new projects like 'Krypt' and 'A.H.A.B.'?"
       
      D'Israeli and I proposed a strip to 2000AD which was promptly rejected. I'm working on another idea with Rich which we'll send in for consideration as soon as I get chance to work on it. But this is the problem with comics. You spend ages creating characters and coming up with stories which you are never paid for. If you're successful then you write the series (in 2000AD's case the money is only okay). It's hard to do this when your agent is finding you work which is all chargeable time.

      > It is sometimes said that my Stories didn't have humour in them -
      this just isn't true but it is something that people say for some
      reason.

      "I don't think I've ever heard anyone say this (among readers at
      least). Then again, if you're working on a "funny animal" comic I
      suppose there's going to be a high expectation from publishers that
      the animal should be funny."
       
      I guess maybe I'm thinking of what Lew says - how he was brought in to add humour to the strip. I never got this because I thought my stuff had plenty humour in it. Now I think about it I have an idea. When I first got involved in Sonic one of my first battles was to get the editor to see Sonic as a heroic action hero and not just a funny animal. I remember conversations where I argued quite strongly that the readers see sonic as a serious character and not just a cute hedgehog who should appear in gag-driven strips. I was asked to give Dr Robotnik a series of eggy puns and I hated that idea and never did it - some were added by the editor though as I recall. I tried very hard to make Robotnik a menacing character so you can imagine how I felt when I picked up the comic one week and there he was throwing custard pies at a picture of Sonic. This led to a conversation with Richard Elson and a story that was designed to make Robotnik as menacing as possible - Rich reflected this in some nice scary images.

      > However, I have to confess that in
      the early stories she was taken
      prisoner a couple of times and this may not have been a good idea.
      But it was a very useful story device. But I don't think we ever had
      Amy being scared, sobbing or begging for mercy. She was brave as
      anybody else. I also made sure that she had the most lethal weapon.

      "Please tell me you didn't come up with that "aim" pun..."
       
      I only vaguely remember any aim pun. But I usually hate puns and I doubt I'd have ever done such a thing. I did have a character called The Punster in an episode of Decap who was there to demonstrate my feeling regarding puns.

      > As Deborah started to flex her
      editorial muscles I was told to
      change my approach to Amy. I can't remember exactly how it panned
      out but I do remember part of one conversation where I tried to
      explain to Deborah that Amy was not some sexual stereotype at all
      but Deb was having none of it. She insisted that because Amy was the
      only girl in the comic she alone represented the female species and
      she had to be seen to be a role model.

      "Did you have this problem with characters like Ebony and Morain? (Or
      for that matter, Kupacius?)"
       
      No, now that you mention it I don't think I did. But none of these characters had the apparent girly aspects of Amy I guess. Ebony was fun to write with Super Sonic and it was one of those times when a character's personality surprises the writer - I never consciously decided that she would be a reckless character who would happily endanger the world based on simply the fact that she was fond of Super Sonic. This just kind of happened in the writing - it's always fun when that happens.

      > Now you may
      say that I should have just done what I was told and
      written the character as Deborah wanted.

      "Actually, what I have wondered is why you didn't bring in more
      regular female characters so Amy wouldn't have to shoulder the
      burden alone. I guess this would have been tough to do without
      damaging that very strong core dynamic you'd established with
      Sonic's gang, though, and Sega didn't do you any favours."
       
      Well, there were lots of ideas for Sonic that I never found room for. Including more female characters to help make a political point wasn't high on the list. Actually it wasn't on the list at all.
       
      Good work with the online Sonic strip again guys. Now that I have broadband I'm going to download the lot and save it safely on a disk somewhere. I always planned to give it an Ed-style review to get a little bit of revenge for all the scrutiny my stories were exposed to but, since everyone does this for love alone, that would seem a little bit mean...
       
      Still Ed, one day I may take revenge...

      "PS. So what does A.H.A.B. stand for?"
       
      Who cares?
       
      Or:
       
      It doesn't stand for anything it just makes his name look cool.
       
      Or:
       
      And this is the more serious answer. I liked the idea that the name was significant to him alone and we never find out why. When we first meet him he is adamant that he isn't Captain Cornelius anymore he is A.H.A.B. - it's a big deal to him. I wish I'd had more room to go into the nature of his feeling toward his own existence as a life form but that wasn't the kind of strip I was after writing.
       
      Nigel
    • EdwdReynolds@aol.com
      ... rejected. I m working on another idea with Rich which we ll send in for consideration as soon as I get chance to work on it. But this is the problem with
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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        > D'Israeli and I proposed a strip to 2000AD which was promptly
        rejected. I'm working on another idea with Rich which we'll send in
        for consideration as soon as I get chance to work on it. But this is
        the problem with comics. You spend ages creating characters and
        coming up with stories which you are never paid for. If you're
        successful then you write the series (in 2000AD's case the money is
        only okay). It's hard to do this when your agent is finding you work
        which is all chargeable time.

        I can imagine. Isn't the waiting list for 2000AD strips obscenely
        long in any event? Shame you don't have incriminating pictures of
        editors at Image or Marvel or somewhere.

        I guess there's been no joy trying to launch 'Magpie' into the
        world, either.

        > I guess maybe I'm thinking of what Lew says - how he was brought
        in to add humour to the strip. I never got this because I thought my
        stuff had plenty humour in it. Now I think about it I have an idea.
        When I first got involved in Sonic one of my first battles was to
        get the editor to see Sonic as a heroic action hero and not just a
        funny animal. I remember conversations where I argued quite strongly
        that the readers see sonic as a serious character and not just a
        cute hedgehog who should appear in gag-driven strips. I was asked to
        give Dr Robotnik a series of eggy puns and I hated that idea and
        never did it - some were added by the editor though as I recall. I
        tried very hard to make Robotnik a menacing character so you can
        imagine how I felt when I picked up the comic one week and there he
        was throwing custard pies at a picture of Sonic. This led to a
        conversation with Richard Elson and a story that was designed to
        make Robotnik as menacing as possible - Rich reflected this in some
        nice scary images.

        I think Lew nailed this straight away actually. The stories had lots
        of action, a fast pace, clearly sympathetic heroes and suchlike --
        they weren't comedy stories like, say, Mark Millar's. Although he
        said he was supposed to bring more humour in, I suspect he's talking
        about making the stories less gritty and continuity-heavy because
        none of those early scripts are played for laughs particularly --
        especially stuff like the Cybernik. It's just that his Sonic wasn't
        a prick, his Tails wasn't a loser and the villains not quite so
        bleak. I guess I can see why ane editor might want something that's
        less like a comic book serial and more like a superior Saturday
        morning action cartoon if that comparison makes sense.

        > No, now that you mention it I don't think I did. But none of these
        characters had the apparent girly aspects of Amy I guess. Ebony was
        fun to write with Super Sonic and it was one of those times when a
        character's personality surprises the writer - I never consciously
        decided that she would be a reckless character who would happily
        endanger the world based on simply the fact that she was fond of
        Super Sonic. This just kind of happened in the writing - it's always
        fun when that happens.

        I was actually surprised when you brought her back. I liked the
        character fine on first appearance but I never really expected to
        see her again. Glad you did, though.

        > Well, there were lots of ideas for Sonic that I never found room
        for. Including more female characters to help make a political point
        wasn't high on the list. Actually it wasn't on the list at all.

        I can imagine, but I didn't mean that you should make a political
        point on the editor's behalf. I just mean, if Amy wasn't the only
        girl that featured regularly, there might not have been the weight
        of expectation on her to be a positive role model and you might have
        had more leeway. But then again, that never really happened with
        Tekno so perhaps not.

        > Good work with the online Sonic strip again guys. Now that I have
        broadband I'm going to download the lot and save it safely on a disk
        somewhere. I always planned to give it an Ed-style review to get a
        little bit of revenge for all the scrutiny my stories were exposed
        to but, since everyone does this for love alone, that would seem a
        little bit mean...

        Cheers, Nigel. I think the comic is fair game. After all, just
        because you make a living off your work doesn't detract from the
        effort you've put in. Actually, the next few issues include a story
        that will pick up on that situation with Tails and the goblins you
        established so I'd be interested to hear what you make of that. But
        I pick apart my own stuff far more than I ever picked apart yours so
        you'll have to get up pretty early in the morning to catch me on the
        hop...

        > Still Ed, one day I may take revenge...

        Bring it on, punk!

        > Who cares?
        >
        > Or:
        >
        > It doesn't stand for anything it just makes his name look cool.

        I should now point out that I said this all along (on this very
        list, too). Naturally, nobody listened.

        > And this is the more serious answer. I liked the idea that the
        name was significant to him alone and we never find out why. When we
        first meet him he is adamant that he isn't Captain Cornelius anymore
        he is A.H.A.B. - it's a big deal to him. I wish I'd had more room to
        go into the nature of his feeling toward his own existence as a life
        form but that wasn't the kind of strip I was after writing.

        Save it for the digitally remastered special edition where the
        flashback images of Cornelius that vaguely resemble Jack Nicholson
        have been replaced by ones that quite look like Jim Carrey.

        Ed
      • Nigel Kitching
        Ed: I can imagine. Isn t the waiting list for 2000AD strips obscenely long in any event? It is. That s another non-incentive. I guess there s been no joy
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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          Ed:

          "I can imagine. Isn't the waiting list for 2000AD strips obscenely
          long in any event?"
           
          It is. That's another non-incentive.
           
          "I guess there's been no joy trying to launch 'Magpie' into the
          world, either."
           
          I've only showed Magpie to a few people but it didn't go down all that well as far as I could tell.

          > No, now that you mention it I
          don't think I did. But none of these
          characters had the apparent girly aspects of Amy I guess. Ebony was
          fun to write with Super Sonic and it was one of those times when a
          character's personality surprises the writer - I never consciously
          decided that she would be a reckless character who would happily
          endanger the world based on simply the fact that she was fond of
          Super Sonic. This just kind of happened in the writing - it's always
          fun when that happens.

          "I was actually surprised when you brought her back. I liked the
          character fine on first appearance but I never really expected to
          see her again. Glad you did, though."
           
          Well, I wanted to have her attitude to Super Sonic and the risk he posed contrasted with Sonic's equally extreme point of view. That's the only reason she was there really.

          "I can imagine, but I didn't mean that you should make a political
          point on the editor's behalf. I just mean, if Amy wasn't the only
          girl that featured regularly, there might not have been the weight
          of expectation on her to be a positive role model and you might have
          had more leeway."
           
          But that's just a totally political reason for including certain types of characters. If I reacted to the PC pressure in this way I'm just acting as though I think the attitude is actually a valid one. Nope, my approach was just to not get into all that nonsense and do something else.
           
           But then again, that never really happened with
          Tekno so perhaps not.

          "Cheers, Nigel. I think the comic is fair game. After all, just
          because you make a living off your work doesn't detract from the
          effort you've put in. Actually, the next few issues include a story
          that will pick up on that situation with Tails and the goblins you
          established so I'd be interested to hear what you make of that."
           
          Ah yes. That is a story-line that I am actually quite protective of. This could be my chance...

          "I pick apart my own stuff far more than I ever picked apart yours so
          you'll have to get up pretty early in the morning to catch me on the
          hop..."
           
          Ah yes. Us writers think that don't we? But actually all we do is scrutinise aspects of our work that are well within our comfort zone. Wait until somebody takes you to task on an aspect that you don't expect. Usually you are exasperated with that person for just not 'getting it'.

          Nigel
        • EdwdReynolds@aol.com
          ... posed contrasted with Sonic s equally extreme point of view. That s the only reason she was there really. It s a shame we never had this thrashed out
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 3, 2004
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            > Well, I wanted to have her attitude to Super Sonic and the risk he
            posed contrasted with Sonic's equally extreme point of view. That's
            the only reason she was there really.

            It's a shame we never had this thrashed out really, except briefly
            in the Chaos arc. When you were doing those Super solos, did you
            have a different first encounter in mind at all?

            > But that's just a totally political reason for including certain
            types of characters. If I reacted to the PC pressure in this way I'm
            just acting as though I think the attitude is actually a valid one.
            Nope, my approach was just to not get into all that nonsense and do
            something else.

            I see what you mean.

            > Ah yes. Us writers think that don't we? But actually all we do is
            scrutinise aspects of our work that are well within our comfort
            zone. Wait until somebody takes you to task on an aspect that you
            don't expect. Usually you are exasperated with that person for just
            not 'getting it'.

            Yes, I can well imagine. Very good point.

            Ed
          • Nigel Kitching
            Ed: It s a shame we never had this thrashed out really, except briefly in the Chaos arc. When you were doing those Super solos, did you have a different first
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 3, 2004
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              Ed:

              "It's a shame we never had this thrashed out really, except briefly
              in the Chaos arc. When you were doing those Super solos, did you
              have a different first encounter in mind at all?"
               
              Between Sonic and Super Sonic?
               
              Yes, I did have some scene in mind I know I did. I just can't remember what it was now.
               
              Nigel
            • Manic Man
              I thought your way of doing Super Sonic was intresting to say the lest. In Games (as much as you can tell) and from what i have read of the Archie Sonic
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 4, 2004
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                I thought your way of doing Super Sonic was intresting to say the
                lest. In Games (as much as you can tell) and from what i have read of
                the Archie Sonic comics, Super Sonic is normaly done as just a more
                powerful version of Sonic (Like with Most Fan fic too) where you have
                the twist of him being evil and stuff.. some the powers were a bit
                off (eye lasers?) but that can be done to a mix of the writer and the
                Artist. I have just down a story for TSW ("The Sonic World", a series
                based on different Sonic ideas from a range of 'Worlds' and our own
                stuff) which introduced Super Sonic and i did him your style cause i
                liked it. I gave more to him as a character.

                Can't wait to see if i get the chance to use him in one of the TSW
                Audio Adventures... ^_^ but that might be a long time comming.. Audio
                Storys are a bit longer to do...

                Shame STC could not use Lew Stringers 'Combat Colin' character.. Can
                anyone Imagine a battle between Super Sonic and Combat Colin? hehe..
              • Rebecca Gunn
                So SEGA had little to do with the comic, I suppose thats what sets StC and Archie apart. SEGA put so many restraints on the Archie series with rules like Sonic
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 5, 2004
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                  So SEGA had little to do with the comic, I suppose thats what sets StC and Archie apart. SEGA put so many restraints on the Archie series with rules like Sonic not being allowed to show emotion, at least to a degree and having to do adaptions for every game after importing a few issues I can see how cramped the creative storyline was getting. Even more-so after they did their own Shanzarr type story-line.
                   
                  I also have the issue where Archie was clearly taking StC's style of Super Sonic in a story where Sonic got briefly seperated from him. It was a nice try but didnt have the depth of StC's Super Sonic

                  Manic Man <sonic_mad_man@...> wrote:

                  I thought your way of doing Super Sonic was intresting to say the
                  lest. In Games (as much as you can tell) and from what i have read of
                  the Archie Sonic comics, Super Sonic is normaly done as just a more
                  powerful version of Sonic (Like with Most Fan fic too) where you have
                  the twist of him being evil and stuff.. some the powers were a bit
                  off (eye lasers?) but that can be done to a mix of the writer and the
                  Artist. I have just down a story for TSW ("The Sonic World", a series
                  based on different Sonic ideas from a range of 'Worlds' and our own
                  stuff) which introduced Super Sonic and i did him your style cause i
                  liked it. I gave more to him as a character.

                  Can't wait to see if i get the chance to use him in one of the TSW
                  Audio Adventures... ^_^ but that might be a long time comming.. Audio
                  Storys are a bit longer to do...

                  Shame STC could not use Lew Stringers 'Combat Colin' character.. Can
                  anyone Imagine a battle between Super Sonic and Combat Colin? hehe..





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                • MTeo
                  Actually, Archie should, if anything hev even lessinvolvement with Sega. Have you SEEN some of the terrible ideas they come up with? SThy give Sonic PARENTS.
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 5, 2004
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                    Actually, Archie should, if anything hev even lessinvolvement with Sega. Have you SEEN some of the terrible ideas they come up with?
                     
                    SThy give Sonic PARENTS. They give him a middle name. They say his real name ISN'T Sonic, and they pair him up with SALLY!
                     
                    The 25 Years later story is a joke. I'm really surprised half of what they do gets past Sega Licensing.
                     
                    -Mark Teo
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 8:57 AM
                    Subject: Re: Sega's Input

                    So SEGA had little to do with the comic, I suppose thats what sets StC and Archie apart. SEGA put so many restraints on the Archie series with rules like Sonic not being allowed to show emotion, at least to a degree and having to do adaptions for every game after importing a few issues I can see how cramped the creative storyline was getting. Even more-so after they did their own Shanzarr type story-line.
                     
                    I also have the issue where Archie was clearly taking StC's style of Super Sonic in a story where Sonic got briefly seperated from him. It was a nice try but didnt have the depth of StC's Super Sonic

                    Manic Man <sonic_mad_man@...> wrote:

                    I thought your way of doing Super Sonic was intresting to say the
                    lest. In Games (as much as you can tell) and from what i have read of
                    the Archie Sonic comics, Super Sonic is normaly done as just a more
                    powerful version of Sonic (Like with Most Fan fic too) where you have
                    the twist of him being evil and stuff.. some the powers were a bit
                    off (eye lasers?) but that can be done to a mix of the writer and the
                    Artist. I have just down a story for TSW ("The Sonic World", a series
                    based on different Sonic ideas from a range of 'Worlds' and our own
                    stuff) which introduced Super Sonic and i did him your style cause i
                    liked it. I gave more to him as a character.

                    Can't wait to see if i get the chance to use him in one of the TSW
                    Audio Adventures... ^_^ but that might be a long time comming.. Audio
                    Storys are a bit longer to do...

                    Shame STC could not use Lew Stringers 'Combat Colin' character.. Can
                    anyone Imagine a battle between Super Sonic and Combat Colin? hehe..





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                  • Manic Man
                    ... Sonic not being allowed to show emotion, at least to a degree and having to do adaptions for every game after importing a few issues I can see how cramped
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 5, 2004
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                      >SEGA put so many restraints on the Archie series with rules like
                      Sonic not being allowed to show emotion, at least to a degree and
                      having to do adaptions for every game after importing a few issues I
                      can see how cramped the creative storyline was getting.

                      To tell the truth, i wish to know if this fact is REALLY true. There
                      was lot of rumours that said the same for the SatAM cartoon series.
                      It was said that Sega was in control and DIC got into a bit of
                      trouble over the episode 'Ultra Sonic' where Sonic is shown crying at
                      the end. This was a LIE, sega where not in control at all.

                      Am not too sure about Archie but am pretty sure i heard something
                      about they doing adaptions just for story more then they were made to.

                      I find game adaptions can be done well but are often Not (well, they
                      are changed soo much to tie in with the current story lines that they
                      are not really adaptions).
                    • Rebecca Gunn
                      ... trouble over the episode Ultra Sonic where Sonic is shown crying at the end. This was a LIE, sega where not in control at all. Yeah that idea has been
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 6, 2004
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                        >"It was said that Sega was in control and DIC got into a bit of
                        trouble over the episode 'Ultra Sonic' where Sonic is shown crying at
                        the end. This was a LIE, sega where not in control at all."

                        Yeah that idea has been around a long time. I've heard all other kinds of rumors about that event. Like rather than Sega, Disney stepped in.

                        However something has to be up at Archie, My issues are few and far between but from the sounds of Dan Drazen's reviews the stories have been running all over the place a long time. When they tried to do Sonic adventure spanned over something like a year of issues retelling the story in their way. The result wasnt exactly satisfying and quite a few characters stories didnt get finished.

                        Though the storyline that made me laugh the most at how unorginised the plot had become was when they all of a sudden announced that Tails wasnt Tails. He was some other thing from another place. They didnt do much with said plot and just brought tails back in a rather dull story. 

                        It's what I always enjoyed more about StC, much more care was taken into story and continuity. The SA adaption was fantastic not only because it did get seen through to the end without fault but because the story was much more radical than Segas. Daring to go that extra mile with a story can really work if you know how your going to do things 



                        Manic Man <sonic_mad_man@...> wrote:

                        >SEGA put so many restraints on the Archie series with rules like
                        Sonic not being allowed to show emotion, at least to a degree and
                        having to do adaptions for every game after importing a few issues I
                        can see how cramped the creative storyline was getting.

                        To tell the truth, i wish to know if this fact is REALLY true. There
                        was lot of rumours that said the same for the SatAM cartoon series.
                        It was said that Sega was in control and DIC got into a bit of
                        trouble over the episode 'Ultra Sonic' where Sonic is shown crying at
                        the end. This was a LIE, sega where not in control at all.

                        Am not too sure about Archie but am pretty sure i heard something
                        about they doing adaptions just for story more then they were made to.

                        I find game adaptions can be done well but are often Not (well, they
                        are changed soo much to tie in with the current story lines that they
                        are not really adaptions).





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                      • Nigel Kitching
                        It s what I always enjoyed more about StC, much more care was taken into story and continuity. The SA adaption was fantastic not only because it did get seen
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 6, 2004
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                          "It's what I always enjoyed more about StC, much more care was taken into story and continuity. The SA adaption was fantastic not only because it did get seen through to the end without fault but because the story was much more radical than Segas. Daring to go that extra mile with a story can really work if you know how your going to do things "
                           
                          Thank you Rebecca. I'm pleased you liked that run. It was the only time I was ever given that much room to really plan a story.
                           
                          Nigel
                        • Manic Man
                          ... time I was ever given that much room to really plan a story. I did find a couple of things i did not quite like with the story to tell the truth BUT if STC
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 6, 2004
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                            > Thank you Rebecca. I'm pleased you liked that run. It was the only
                            time I was ever given that much room to really plan a story.

                            I did find a couple of things i did not quite like with the story to
                            tell the truth BUT if STC had continued or you were given a couple of
                            more issues, it might have made more sense. Art wise, i did not like
                            the fact that pretty much all the characters changed into there SA
                            forms and there is a bit of a story about Sonic's Eyes goign green.
                            But no-one ever though, "Hang on.. Knuckles, Amy, Tails etc (but he
                            had colour in some storys) have eye colour too!". but that is NOT
                            really your fault.. It was a great story. Did you have anything in
                            mind to tie up the Knuckles side of how come he is in the past and
                            the future?
                          • EdwdReynolds@aol.com
                            ... remember what it was now. Ah, that s a shame. Oh well. I thought it was a tad disappointing you didn t change the status quo at all with Super in the last
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 6, 2004
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                              > Yes, I did have some scene in mind I know I did. I just can't
                              remember what it was now.

                              Ah, that's a shame. Oh well.

                              I thought it was a tad disappointing you didn't change the status
                              quo at all with Super in the last solo story you did with him, but I
                              guess it would have been difficult to do anything too major with him
                              at that time?

                              Ed
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