Average Number of Turns Played

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• I know this can probably only be guessed at, but what do you consider to be the average number of turns that you play, per side, in an average game (however
Message 1 of 15 , Jul 13, 2011
I know this can probably only be guessed at, but what do you consider to be the average number of turns that you play, per side, in an average game (however you define that)?

I know, I know, so many variables. Just trying to get a guess as to how many turns the average game lasts for most people.

Dale

http://dales-dba.blogspot.com
http://daleswargames.blogspot.com
http://wooden-warriors.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• I played a game with my friend a few weeks ago.  I kept track of the number of turnovers I rolled during the game.  I had 12 counters.  I used all 12.  I
Message 2 of 15 , Jul 13, 2011
I played a game with my friend a few weeks ago.  I kept track of the number of
turnovers I rolled during the game.  I had 12 counters.  I used all 12.  I don't
think I completed a turn where each figure activated.  I do play aggressively,
but even so I think 12  turnovers is abnormal, even for me.  Maybe 10 turns per
player, depending on the point value of the game?  That was a 300 point game,
which is small for us.  Interesting question.

________________________________
From: Dale Hurtt <dale_hurtt@...>
Sent: Wed, July 13, 2011 11:25:44 AM
Subject: [songofblades] Average Number of Turns Played

I know this can probably only be guessed at, but what do you consider to be the
average number of turns that you play, per side, in an average game (however you
define that)?

I know, I know, so many variables. Just trying to get a guess as to how many
turns the average game lasts for most people.

Dale

http://dales-dba.blogspot.com
http://daleswargames.blogspot.com
http://wooden-warriors.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• id say its highly variable depending on the scenario, warbands, etc, and, more importantly, the play style of each of the players. aggressive games will be far
Message 3 of 15 , Jul 13, 2011
id say its highly variable depending on the scenario, warbands, etc, and, more importantly, the play style of each of the players. aggressive games will be far faster, whereas any player depending on attrition, or playing defensively will dramatically increase the number of turns (but not necessarily the amount of time.

--- In songofblades@yahoogroups.com, William Lukash <wlukash@...> wrote:
>
> I played a game with my friend a few weeks ago.Â  I kept track of the number of
> turnovers I rolled during the game.Â  I had 12 counters.Â  I used all 12.Â  I don't
> think I completed a turnÂ where each figure activated.Â  I do play aggressively,
> but even so I thinkÂ 12Â  turnovers isÂ abnormal, even for me.Â  Maybe 10 turns per
> player, depending on the point value of the game?Â  That was a 300 point game,
> which is small for us.Â  Interesting question.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dale Hurtt <dale_hurtt@...>
> Sent: Wed, July 13, 2011 11:25:44 AM
> Subject: [songofblades] Average Number of Turns Played
>
> Â
> I know this can probably only be guessed at, but what do you consider to be the
> average number of turns that you play, per side, in an average game (however you
> define that)?
>
> I know, I know, so many variables. Just trying to get a guessÂ as to how many
> turns the average game lasts for most people.
>
> Â
> Dale
>
> http://dales-dba.blogspot.com
> http://daleswargames.blogspot.com
> http://wooden-warriors.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
• While time is more of a variable our flying lead/ hearts and minds standard games usually last around 8-10 turns. I know this as most are counted for some game
Message 4 of 15 , Jul 13, 2011
While time is more of a variable our flying lead/ hearts and minds standard games usually last around 8-10 turns. I know this as most are counted for some game reason or other.

On 13 Jul 2011, at 18:37, "committeeofvultures" <committeeofvultures@...> wrote:

> id say its highly variable depending on the scenario, warbands, etc, and, more importantly, the play style of each of the players. aggressive games will be far faster, whereas any player depending on attrition, or playing defensively will dramatically increase the number of turns (but not necessarily the amount of time.
>
> --- In songofblades@yahoogroups.com, William Lukash <wlukash@...> wrote:
> >
> > I played a game with my friend a few weeks ago.Â I kept track of the number of
> > turnovers I rolled during the game.Â I had 12 counters.Â I used all 12.Â I don't
> > think I completed a turnÂ where each figure activated.Â I do play aggressively,
> > but even so I thinkÂ 12Â turnovers isÂ abnormal, even for me.Â Maybe 10 turns per
> > player, depending on the point value of the game?Â That was a 300 point game,
> > which is small for us.Â Interesting question.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Dale Hurtt <dale_hurtt@...>
> > Sent: Wed, July 13, 2011 11:25:44 AM
> > Subject: [songofblades] Average Number of Turns Played
> >
> > Â
> > I know this can probably only be guessed at, but what do you consider to be the
> > average number of turns that you play, per side, in an average game (however you
> > define that)?
> >
> > I know, I know, so many variables. Just trying to get a guessÂ as to how many
> > turns the average game lasts for most people.
> >
> > Â
> > Dale
> >
> > http://dales-dba.blogspot.com
> > http://daleswargames.blogspot.com
> > http://wooden-warriors.blogspot.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• I haven t done a lot of formal counting, but my gut says that more than 10 turns would feel like a longer than average game.
Message 5 of 15 , Jul 13, 2011
I haven't done a lot of formal counting, but my gut says that more than 10 turns would "feel" like a longer than average game.
• I would say about 8-9 full turns for 300 pts SBH. 500 pts lasts more or less the same. I can make a point to clock turns in a SDS tournament in the future. But
Message 6 of 15 , Jul 13, 2011
I would say about 8-9 full turns for 300 pts SBH. 500 pts lasts more or less the same. I can make a point to clock turns in a SDS tournament in the future.
But I have won and lost games on the 3rd-4th turn, generally by gruesomely killing a leader who was not protected. More experienced players roll less dice and act more cautiously than this, though.
Andrea

On 13/lug/2011, at 20:51, "fjalar_zymu" <bighara@...> wrote:

> I haven't done a lot of formal counting, but my gut says that more than 10 turns would "feel" like a longer than average game.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• ... I am toying with an idea for simply tracking stress and fatigue, based upon a concept in another rule set.
Message 7 of 15 , Jul 13, 2011
--- In songofblades@yahoogroups.com, William Lukash <wlukash@...> wrote:
> Interesting question.

I am toying with an idea for simply tracking stress and fatigue, based upon a concept in another rule set. http://daleswargames.blogspot.com/2011/07/ideas-for-song-of-blades-engine.html

Dale
• Funny that you are working on this. A system I ve been working on, Seven Secrets, is a dice pool/resource management system not unlike DieFighting. I was
Message 8 of 15 , Jul 14, 2011
Funny that you are working on this. A system I've been working on, Seven
Secrets, is a dice pool/resource management system not unlike DieFighting. I
was actually working on this on and off for two years and I have discovered
DF only a couple of months ago, it seems I and the author had very similar
ideas (although I use a lot the COLOR of the dice and a bidding system in
the rules).
I don't have time right now to give it the attention it deserves but I am
going to develop it whenever possible. Yes calculating how many dice are
needed/spent is the basis of the design as you thought. After my operation
we can discuss this.
Andrea

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• ... Actually, I first came across this idea when reading an article from the late Wally Simon in his magazine PW Review. He did not have the concept fully
Message 9 of 15 , Jul 14, 2011
--- In songofblades@yahoogroups.com, andrea sfiligoi <andreasfiligoi@...> wrote:
>
> Funny that you are working on this. A system I've been working on, Seven
> Secrets, is a dice pool/resource management system not unlike DieFighting.

Actually, I first came across this idea when reading an article from the late Wally Simon in his magazine PW Review. He did not have the concept fully fleshed out and I had never really been able to make the concept work in my skirmish games, primarily because I had been focusing on dice pool allocations on a turn-by-turn basis. Die Fighting showed that the key was to take the battle as a whole into account.

> I
> was actually working on this on and off for two years and I have discovered
> DF only a couple of months ago, it seems I and the author had very similar
> ideas (although I use a lot the COLOR of the dice and a bidding system in
> the rules).

He has color built into it too. Red is the total game pool (resource dice), green are free dice and given based on situation, and yellow dice is a turn-by-turn pool allocated by having leaders.

> I don't have time right now to give it the attention it deserves but I am
> going to develop it whenever possible. Yes calculating how many dice are
> needed/spent is the basis of the design as you thought. After my operation
> we can discuss this.

Good luck on your operation and may you have a swift recovery. I look forward to the discussion. I will post any results of my experiments on my blog (http://daleswargames.blogspot.com).

Dale
• I meant color choice is not as relevant in DF as it is in my system (I use 7 different colors which may be a market hurdle to overcome as some players will not
Message 10 of 15 , Jul 14, 2011
I meant color choice is not as relevant in DF as it is in my system (I use 7
different colors which may be a market hurdle to overcome as some players
will not have that many dice in different colors). I use both an overall
dice management and a turn by turn "hand" of dice that are either burned or
returned to the pool before a new turn begins.
I will probably reduce it to 5 colors although "Five Secrets" doesn't have
the glamour of "Seven Secrets" as a title :-))
Andrea

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• I find the more I play the better I get at managing my figures so that I can roll more dice...and I do.  ... From: Andrea Sfiligoi
Message 11 of 15 , Jul 14, 2011
I find the more I play the better I get at managing my figures so that I can
roll more dice...and I do.

----- Original Message ----
From: Andrea Sfiligoi <andreasfiligoi@...>
Sent: Wed, July 13, 2011 4:19:32 PM
Subject: Re: [songofblades] Re: Average Number of Turns Played

I would say about 8-9 full turns for 300 pts SBH. 500 pts lasts more or less the
same. I can make a point to clock turns in a SDS tournament in the future.
But I have won and lost games on the 3rd-4th turn, generally by gruesomely
killing a leader who was not protected. More experienced players roll less dice
and act more cautiously than this, though.
Andrea

On 13/lug/2011, at 20:51, "fjalar_zymu" <bighara@...> wrote:

> I haven't done a lot of formal counting, but my gut says that more than 10
>turns would "feel" like a longer than average game.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

• very intersting post. an option could be to have the normal dices generated by the figure alive turn by turn. in this way you don t need an hundred of them.
Message 12 of 15 , Jul 15, 2011
very intersting post.
an option could be to have the normal dices generated by the figure alive turn by turn.
in this way you don't need an hundred of them.
When a turnover is rolled you can discard the dies losing them for the next turn and keep moving or pass the hand without penalty.
another option could be to loose the dices coming from a figure when this fails a morale roll ( i always found that the simple move isn't a big penalty for failing morale).
in this way list with few supersoldiers generates few dices balancing the game.
• I forgot to add re: management of dice pools, that the SWATTERS game I am writing for Khurasan (space marines versus aliens) is based on Song engine and uses
Message 13 of 15 , Jul 15, 2011
I forgot to add re: management of dice pools, that the SWATTERS game I am
writing for Khurasan (space marines versus aliens) is based on Song engine
and uses dice pools. For the marine, the pool represents their firepower and
ammo, for the aliens the possibility to spawn more aliens and bring them
into play (and also can be used for some maneuvers like closing for melee).
The innovative thing in this is that the marine may roll ANY number of dice
for ranged attacks, using up their pool-- so if you really want to win a
certain fight or another you will decide to invest more dice on it (you
can roll any number of dice and pick the best result for combat).

John Acar from the Yahoo group has given me some math assistance on this.
THis will go in playtest around September if all goes as planned.
A

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• ... That is what I always tried in the past and I could never really make it work. It played okay, but managing a turn pool gives less continuity to the
Message 14 of 15 , Jul 16, 2011
> Alessandro wrote:
>
> very intersting post.
> an option could be to have the normal dices generated by the figure alive turn
> by turn.

That is what I always tried in the past and I could never really make it work. It played okay, but managing a turn pool gives less continuity to the narrative than does managing a game pool. I may blog that idea further.

> in this way you don't need an hundred of them.

You don't. Say you keep ten dice in your pool and nine poker chips, each worth 10 dice to represent your 100 dice. When you have thrown the 10 dice in the bucket, you throw the poker chip in the bucket and draw the 10 dice back out.

That said, there ARE people that prefer to buy the 100 dice. Sort of like the poker player that prefers stacks of \$1 chips in front of him rather than a few \$10 chips.

> Andrea Sfiligoi wrote:
>
> I forgot to add re: management of dice pools, that the SWATTERS game I am
> writing for Khurasan (space marines versus aliens) is based on Song engine
> and uses dice pools.

This sounds like it will be my rules of choice for using my old 40K figures. With some additional work on stats, of course.

> For the marine, the pool represents their firepower and ammo,

That's the sort of thing I was thinking the dice pool would represent, plus some intangibles like fatigue and stress.

> for the aliens the possibility to spawn more aliens and bring them
> into play (and also can be used for some maneuvers like closing for melee).

I like this. The more choices the player has for rolling his dice, the more the results are based on those choices, and not on the rolls themselves. It sounds counter-intuitive that you try and reduce luck by adding more dice... :^)

> The innovative thing in this is that the marine may roll ANY number of dice
> for ranged attacks, using up their pool-- so if you really want to win a
> certain fight or another you will decide to invest more dice on it (you
> can roll any number of dice and pick the best result for combat).

I really like that too. That is why the dice pool has to be for the battle, and not just for a turn, and then is renewed.

> John Acar from the Yahoo group has given me some math assistance on this.
> THis will go in playtest around September if all goes as planned.

Sounds good.

Dale
• Interesting....I m currently working on adapting SAGA (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/101865/saga) to SBH and I was thinking about using the Dice Pool
Message 15 of 15 , Dec 9, 2014

Interesting....I'm currently working on adapting SAGA (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/101865/saga) to SBH and I was thinking about using the Dice Pool mechanic from Swatters to simulate the abilties given on the Battleboards in SAGA.

Not keeping 'track' of anything but rather using it like SAGA does - as one-shot boosts for a particular turn. Kind of like 'on-the-fly' Warband Advances.

Still working on it....