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Re: English vs Hebrew on tools

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  • Brother M The Mad
    ... lol, I was going to cheat and use some Alephs and Lamed s ;-). So seriously, people leave the ADONAI as is? What about the supposed power of teh hebrew
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 31, 2008
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      --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Athena" <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
      > Cheat and use some Alephs and Yods? :>
      >
      > Athena
      > --
      > www.enochian.org
      >

      lol, I was going to cheat and use some Alephs and Lamed's ;-). So
      seriously, people leave the ADONAI as is? What about the supposed
      power of teh hebrew letters themselves?

      Many thanks,

      BrotherM
    • wgungfu
      ... The power comes from what they represent and the pronunciation (putting in to energy), not the letters themselves. The written alphabet/characters evolved
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 2, 2008
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        --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Brother M The Mad" <xbrothermx@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > What about the supposed
        > power of teh hebrew letters themselves?

        The power comes from what they represent and the pronunciation
        (putting in to energy), not the letters themselves. The written
        alphabet/characters evolved over time.

        >Hebrew form contains only 4 letters
        >and also is written counter-clockwise (i.e. right to left).

        Hebrew is written right to left, when you start going in circles, all
        bets are off. ;)

        And even then, kabbalistically you read and interpret in both
        directions to find "meanings" and "implications".


        yehiy 'or
        Mordecai Shia
      • Mike Rock
        On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Brother M The Mad ... I m not a Jew, so I m more likely to write stuff out in Greek or Latin, including Psalm versicles. mike
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 2, 2008
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          On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Brother M The Mad
          <xbrothermx@...> wrote:
          > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Athena" <oipteaapdoce@...> wrote:
          >> Cheat and use some Alephs and Yods? :>
          >>
          >> Athena
          >> --
          >> www.enochian.org
          >>
          >
          > lol, I was going to cheat and use some Alephs and Lamed's ;-). So
          > seriously, people leave the ADONAI as is? What about the supposed
          > power of teh hebrew letters themselves?
          >
          > Many thanks,
          >
          > BrotherM
          >

          I'm not a Jew, so I'm more likely to write stuff out in Greek or
          Latin, including Psalm versicles.

          mike

          --
          http://www.mike-rock.com
        • Brother M The Mad
          ... The Sefer Yetzirah disagrees, the letters themselves, i.e. the shapes, do have significant power, as do their names and vocalisations. The combinations of
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 2, 2008
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            --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "wgungfu" <wgungfu@...> wrote:
            > The power comes from what they represent and the pronunciation
            > (putting in to energy), not the letters themselves. The written
            > alphabet/characters evolved over time.

            The Sefer Yetzirah disagrees, the letters themselves, i.e. the shapes,
            do have significant power, as do their names and vocalisations. The
            combinations of the specific letters represent energies or eminations
            of god, so writing in Hebrew ADNI is a direct representation of a
            specific emination. Writing Adonai, is less meaningful.

            I agree about the going in circles bit, who was it that wrote that
            Qabalistically you can create everything from nothing, and that that
            was the entire point. I think it was Dion Fortune (or was quoted in one
            of her books)

            Bro-M
          • jen
            How bout a practical approach into the mix. My suggestion try it both ways and see which works best. Just make sure you understand the symbolism since Hebrew
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 2, 2008
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              How bout a practical approach into the mix. My suggestion try it both
              ways and see which works best. Just make sure you understand the
              symbolism since Hebrew letter have both numerical values and other
              meanings. Try both. A hint on doing the hebrew lettering. I use a
              water soluble ink and a small flat paintbrush. Other less expensive
              mediums would be arcrylic or opaque water color. All of the above can
              be found at the dollar store or whatever the equivalent is.

              Personally I don't find any particular advantage to Hebrew lettering.
              Except drawing that way helps to shut off the critical logical part of
              the brain ( your drawing what you see)

              Now another idea is to intuit your own lettering system and use it.
              Then it has intrinsic meaning.
            • wgungfu
              ... While I appreciate your position, actually the Sefer Yetzirah would disagree you. That s actually the source I was referring to in my statement,
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 2, 2008
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                --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Brother M The Mad" <xbrothermx@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "wgungfu" <wgungfu@> wrote:
                > > The power comes from what they represent and the pronunciation
                > > (putting in to energy), not the letters themselves. The written
                > > alphabet/characters evolved over time.
                >
                > The Sefer Yetzirah disagrees, the letters themselves, i.e. the shapes,
                > do have significant power, as do their names and vocalisations.

                While I appreciate your position, actually the Sefer Yetzirah would
                disagree you. That's actually the source I was referring to in my
                statement, specifically in the power of all being in the vocalization
                - i.e. "and god *said* let there be light" is there for a reason. The
                discussion on shapes (and the current shapes are more modern) is in
                regards to what their written formation implies and imparts (teaches
                and represents), not on the power of the shapes themselves. Its a
                common misinterpretation to read in to the sefer yetzirah that the
                letters themselves are power, when what is being discussed is the
                kabbalistic meaning behind the letters and their current formation,
                which is where the actual power resides - the knowledge, and action.
                The meaning and thought behind how they are formed, the kabbalistic
                concepts they are meant to impart, and how they interact with the
                sephiroth and life. Which is all formed around their discussion in
                relation to speech. Even the discussion of the formation of the
                letters is in regards towards interaction and speech - for example,
                the passage in the sefer yetzirah that states "with it he engraved and
                carved", the word translated as engrave is Chakak, which is the
                removal of material. i.e. "The letters came in to existence when the
                reflected breath removes portions of the direct breath. This takes
                place through the various motions of the mouth." Likewise for the
                word translated as carve, which is Chatzav, is about separating from a
                source. It imparts "the process wherein the letter sounds leave the
                mouth and are expressed independently". Together, they denote the
                pronunciation and resulting expression - i.e. the charge. Why is the
                written Hebrew text of sefers and the Torah considered so wholly that
                the orthodoxy protect it to the point of having specific rituals on
                burying to dispose of old text? Because what the written text it is
                imparting is considered holy, not the text itself - that would be akin
                to idoltry. Outsiders may misinterpret the reverence of the physical
                torah and other texts (such as when we kiss our hand or sefer and
                touch the torah with it as its walked past us by the Rabbi at various
                times during prayer) as acknowledging some sort of power the physical
                item itself has. In actuality, its because of its value as a
                connection or pathway to god. By kissing it, and his words (the
                speech that created us), we are showing reverence.

                The written form of the alphabet, including the alphabet, evolved over
                time, that's historical fact by now. In fact, we're going through a
                perfect example of that now with the pottery shard that was found
                recently from during the time of David, written in what's termed
                "paleo hebrew", which in written form is based off of the Phoenician
                alphabet (i.e. hebrew words and verbage written down with the
                phoenician alphabet), something that the Samaritans (which I was
                involved in a discussion on here not long ago) still use in fact.

                In summation, that the written letter itself would have power beyond
                what is implied through imparted knowledge or given to them through
                charging, is a foreign concept to Jewish kabbalistic thought since its
                bordering on idolatry - just as one is advised not to worship the
                sephiroth themselves, the angels, etc. I'm not sure what actual
                sources you're using, or what background you're coming from that's
                providing you with your interpretations. But if you're interested in
                how the Sefer Yetzirah is referred to and studied with in regards to
                the Hebrew Kabbalah, I'd strongly recommend reading Rabbi Aryeh
                Kaplan's treatise on the Sefer Yetzirah - "Sefer Yetzirah - The Book
                of Creation, in Theory and Practice".

                yehiy 'or
                Mordecai Shia
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