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Re: [solomonic] Holy Guardian Angel

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  • Aaron@Leitch.net
    Greetings! If I recall correctly, you re somewhat new to our list. So, I hope this won t be a repeat for you: The Holy Guardian Angel:
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 1, 2004
      Greetings!

      If I recall correctly, you're somewhat new to our list. So, I hope this
      won't be a repeat for you:

      The Holy Guardian Angel:
      http://kheph777.tripod.com/art_HGA.html

      Enjoy!

      LVX
      Aaron

      On 29 Feb 2004 at 19:32, daimonic666 wrote:

      > Has anyone on this list achieved union with their Holy Guardian Angel
      > through the use of Solomonic Ceremonial Magic? And, if not, does
      > anyone know, personally, anyone who has achieved the union with their
      > Holy Guardian Angel through the use of Solomonic Magic?
      >
      > I ask this question out of sincere interest--for I've been gifted
      > with the Knowledge and Conversation with my own Guardian, but it came
      > about through no ritual or ceremony. It occurred through the sojourn
      > through the Abyss--brute necessity. Aleister Crowley wrote
      > in "Magick" that ritual can only help to prepare the Magician for the
      > union--but that it cannot induce the union, itself. From my own
      > experience (and research), I would have to agree with his
      > assessment. However, I'm always on the lookout for something new to
      > change my view or opinion.
      >
      > Can ritual become the catalyst to induce the Guardian experience?
      > And, has anyone found that a Goetian entity can become one's Holy
      > Guardian Angel?
      >
      > daimonic666
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • daimonic666
      ... this ... Hello Aaron, Your essay is very well written and I ve read other things that you ve written on the Internet as well, but it doesn t answer the
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 1, 2004
        --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L... wrote:
        > Greetings!

        > If I recall correctly, you're somewhat new to our list. So, I hope
        this
        > won't be a repeat for you:

        > The Holy Guardian Angel:
        > http://kheph777.tripod.com/art_HGA.html

        > Enjoy!

        > LVX
        > Aaron

        Hello Aaron,

        Your essay is very well written and I've read other things that
        you've written on the Internet as well, but it doesn't answer the
        question I posed: Has anyone performed a ritual that resulted in
        communion with their HGA? Have you? All I ever see anywhere on the
        subject is material that seems to be written by individuals who
        haven't had the experience. My own book (which hasn't been published
        yet) seems to be the only one so far, that I know of, that has been
        written from the perspective of actually being the recipient of the
        experience. And again, I would like to emphasize--that my experience
        was completely involuntary--the Guardian initiated the action (hence,
        the term--"initiation"). I'm looking for others who've had HGA
        experiences so that we can compare notes. Your essay--and what
        others have written, doesn't convince me that any ritual can be used
        to induce the communion.

        Respectfully,

        daimonic666 (Jay)
      • rdelupos@cs.com
        93! daimonic666@netscape.net writes: Has anyone performed a ritual that resulted in communion with their HGA? Rey: In all honesty...yes! For me contact with
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 1, 2004
          93!

          daimonic666@... writes:

          Has anyone performed a ritual that resulted in communion with their HGA?


          Rey:

          In all honesty...yes! For me contact with my HGA is best facilitated
          through the rite of a Eucharistic mass. And being a Thelemite, I have written a
          mass to aid in this function:


          See: [The Golden Topaz]

          http://www.geocities.com/kundal/The_Golden_Topaz.pdf


          It is something that has been a great focal point for my own communication
          with the Beloved. Your mileage may vary. [smile]

          I suggest LISTENING from your Thymus Gland [Heart Chakra] and creating a
          ritual or rite that speaks to the fire within.


          In Pax Profunda,
          Rey De Lupos



          "Unless the eye catch fire, the god will not be seen.
          Unless the tongue catch fire, the Gods will not be named.
          Unless the heart catch fire, the Gods will not be loved.
          Unless the mind catch fire, the Gods will not be known."

          William Blake
        • daimonic666
          Hello Rey, Thank you for responding to my query. Would you be interested in joining my group, Holy Guardian Angel? I would like to discuss your experience.
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 1, 2004
            Hello Rey,

            Thank you for responding to my query.

            Would you be interested in joining my group, Holy Guardian Angel? I
            would like to discuss your experience. Anyone else who is interested
            is invited to join as well--just let me know.

            For Rey, an invitation is being sent to you immediately. It would be
            my privilege if you accepted.

            daimonic666

            --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, rdelupos@c... wrote:
            >
            >
            > 93!
            >
            > daimonic666@n... writes:
            >
            > Has anyone performed a ritual that resulted in communion with their
            HGA?
            >
            >
            > Rey:
            >
            > In all honesty...yes! For me contact with my HGA is best
            facilitated
            > through the rite of a Eucharistic mass. And being a Thelemite, I
            have written a
            > mass to aid in this function:
            >
            >
            > See: [The Golden Topaz]
            >
            > http://www.geocities.com/kundal/The_Golden_Topaz.pdf
            >
            >
            > It is something that has been a great focal point for my own
            communication
            > with the Beloved. Your mileage may vary. [smile]
            >
            > I suggest LISTENING from your Thymus Gland [Heart Chakra] and
            creating a
            > ritual or rite that speaks to the fire within.
            >
            >
            > In Pax Profunda,
            > Rey De Lupos
            >
            >
            >
            > "Unless the eye catch fire, the god will not be seen.
            > Unless the tongue catch fire, the Gods will not be named.
            > Unless the heart catch fire, the Gods will not be loved.
            > Unless the mind catch fire, the Gods will not be known."
            >
            > William Blake
          • daimonic666
            Aaron, Would it be permissable to post the link to my group, Holy Guardian Angel, for any individuals in your group who might be interested in joining mine?
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 1, 2004
              Aaron,

              Would it be permissable to post the link to my group, Holy Guardian
              Angel, for any individuals in your group who might be interested in
              joining mine? I'm primarily interested in those who have had a
              Guardian experience, but anyone is welcome.

              For me, I want to discuss these major topics (among others):
              1. How did it happen?
              2. What was the experience itself?
              3. How did it change the individual?
              4. A sample of the Wisdom or expertise that the Guardian provides

              daimonic666
            • daimonic666
              ... Sorry..I misspelled permissible . I m just really excited about finding someone who says he s had a Guardian experience through ritual! If the claim is
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 1, 2004
                --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "daimonic666" <daimonic666@n...>
                wrote:

                > Would it be permissable to post the link to my group, Holy Guardian

                Sorry..I misspelled "permissible". I'm just really excited about
                finding someone who says he's had a Guardian experience through
                ritual! If the claim is verifiable, it means having to trash whole
                sections of my book--which hurts--but, everything is expendable for
                accuracy and the truth. I can't wait to learn more.

                daimonic666
              • Michael S. Downs
                Well, this kind of philosophizing generally just leads to trouble, but if we treat it from the outset as a game to amuse ourselves with that we can drop at any
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 1, 2004
                  Well, this kind of philosophizing generally just leads to trouble,
                  but if we treat it from the outset as a game to amuse ourselves with
                  that we can drop at any time, it might have more lasting value:

                  Your question assumes a lot of shared belief and specificity to the
                  concept "Holy Guardian Angel." Whatever my experiences are and how
                  I choose to categorize them internally or portray them conceptually
                  for others, it doesnt change the fact that we will be trading
                  language about experiences rather than those experiences
                  themselves. Having done that a few times before, I personally have
                  found that the HGA concept is useful and helpful at some times to
                  focus the essence of certain operations, but a stumbling block in
                  other times when it stands in the way as a kind of pre-existant
                  category demanding that I speak through it.

                  For instance, I have to wonder about over-emphasizing the discrete
                  and distinct character of an "experience" of Union with the Holy
                  Guardian Angel. Isnt that like saying one has a discrete and
                  distinct "experience" of Knowledge? Knowledge tends to be less
                  discrete and distinct in character than it is gradual and integral --
                  a state that is achieved through background processes -- usually
                  without fanfare and only rarely with a noticable "AHA!" experience,
                  but once achieved and recognized, "knowledge" of a thing has a sense
                  of permanence that makes you "different" than before, this should be
                  distinguished from those experiences that, however striking and
                  profoundly in the moment, are merely fleeting in the sense of a
                  roller-coaster rush that fades. Imagine if you expected every
                  learning experience to be accompanied by leaping out of the bathtub
                  and shouting "EUREKA!" This places an unreal burden of expectation
                  and a distorted focus on one possible aspect of the path. It is
                  good to have such experiences, but that is not the only good
                  magickal experience to have that qualifies as deep inner knowing!

                  So -- My point is -- if we liken Evokation to Mathematical Exercises
                  in school (or school plays if you prefer) -- You might develop
                  your "HGA of Math" as *an appreciation and inward desire for the
                  ever-blooming revelatory power of math* at any point along a long
                  course of graded math exercises -- assuming you dont drop out and
                  change focus too soon -- but there may not ever be one single,
                  identifiable experience that is as identifiable as the overall
                  process is or was. like the debate about "Love at first sight," it
                  is best to acknowledge love as a state of being with many gates of
                  entry.

                  Hope my hot air is refreshing rather than annoying...In my
                  experience, as such philosophical dialogue continues, there will
                  sooner or later be a clamor for someone to open up a window!

                  Fraternally,

                  Frater Asklepius



                  --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "daimonic666" <daimonic666@n...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "daimonic666" <daimonic666@n...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > Would it be permissable to post the link to my group, Holy
                  Guardian
                  >
                  > Sorry..I misspelled "permissible". I'm just really excited about
                  > finding someone who says he's had a Guardian experience through
                  > ritual! If the claim is verifiable, it means having to trash whole
                  > sections of my book--which hurts--but, everything is expendable
                  for
                  > accuracy and the truth. I can't wait to learn more.
                  >
                  > daimonic666
                • rdelupos@cs.com
                  Greetings Daimonic666, You wrote: Would you be interested in joining my group, Holy Guardian Angel? Rey: Thank you for the invitation to join your e-list. I
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 2, 2004
                    Greetings Daimonic666,


                    You wrote:

                    Would you be interested in joining my group, Holy Guardian Angel?


                    Rey:

                    Thank you for the invitation to join your e-list. I must admit that from my
                    point of view -- speaking of the KCHGA as a mechanized modality is in many
                    ways, fruitless. But, perhaps arranging it into pattern via the intellect may
                    give one a snapshot of what this experience might be like?

                    For me personally, the communication that is experienced between myself and
                    my Beloved is subtle and penetrating. My angel does appear in a blaze of glory
                    with a big booming voice --except perhaps in my mind's eye from time to time
                    [grin] -- but the experience of 'Listening' [via meditation and other similar
                    methods] to its message via the intuitive mechanism, the play of its mind
                    against mine and the memories of our interconnectedness previous to this
                    incarnation.

                    As the Grateful Dead would say, 'What a long strange trip its been..."


                    Daimonic666:

                    I would like to discuss your experience. Anyone else who is interested is
                    invited to join as well--just let me know.


                    Rey:

                    I would be more than happy to share my thoughts and experiences with you.
                    Please send me the URL to your e-list.


                    Daimonic666:

                    For Rey, an invitation is being sent to you immediately. It would be my
                    privilege if you accepted.


                    Rey:

                    I have not received the invitation. However, I am more than happy to sign up
                    if the URL is provided.



                    In the Bonds of the Great Work,
                    Rey



                    "Unless the eye catch fire, the god will not be seen.
                    Unless the tongue catch fire, the Gods will not be named.
                    Unless the heart catch fire, the Gods will not be loved.
                    Unless the mind catch fire, the Gods will not be known."

                    William Blake
                  • Aaron@Leitch.net
                    Greetings Jay, The essay you read, of course, outlines just the ritual you are talking about, the philosophies behind it, etc. Though, it does not include
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 2, 2004
                      Greetings Jay,

                      The essay you read, of course, outlines just the ritual you are
                      talking about, the philosophies behind it, etc. Though, it does not
                      include much personal information about completing the Rite.

                      As for performing the Rite- yes, I have done so. I'm sorry if you
                      don't find that convincing, but then I'm not really interested in
                      convincing anyone. ;) I have performed it- and you can even see
                      pics of all the tools and furnishings I used in the photos section of
                      this mailing list. ;)

                      I don't think it would be any use at all to debate whether or not
                      someone here has been successful. No one could possibly ever
                      "convince" you that they have succeeded. Folks who brag about
                      having attained Knowledge and Conversation aren't usually much
                      use in a discussion about the subject... However, I will be more
                      than happy to discuss Abramelin and my experiences, and answer
                      any reasonable questions you want to put to me about it... :)

                      LVX
                      Aaron


                      On 2 Mar 2004 at 2:15, daimonic666 wrote:

                      > > The Holy Guardian Angel:
                      > > http://kheph777.tripod.com/art_HGA.html

                      > Hello Aaron,
                      >
                      > Your essay is very well written and I've read other things that
                      > you've written on the Internet as well, but it doesn't answer the
                      > question I posed: Has anyone performed a ritual that resulted in
                      > communion with their HGA? Have you? All I ever see anywhere on the
                      > subject is material that seems to be written by individuals who
                      > haven't had the experience. My own book (which hasn't been published
                      > yet) seems to be the only one so far, that I know of, that has been
                      > written from the perspective of actually being the recipient of the
                      > experience. And again, I would like to emphasize--that my experience
                      > was completely involuntary--the Guardian initiated the action (hence,
                      > the term--"initiation"). I'm looking for others who've had HGA
                      > experiences so that we can compare notes. Your essay--and what
                      > others have written, doesn't convince me that any ritual can be used
                      > to induce the communion.
                      >
                      > Respectfully,
                      >
                      > daimonic666 (Jay)
                    • Aaron@Leitch.net
                      ... Good point. ... You re hitting the main point I wanted to make here. Jay seems to be telling us (and forgive me, Jay, if I m wrong on this) that he views
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 2, 2004
                        On 2 Mar 2004 at 4:42, Michael S. Downs wrote:

                        > Well, this kind of philosophizing generally just leads to trouble,
                        > but if we treat it from the outset as a game to amuse ourselves with
                        > that we can drop at any time, it might have more lasting value:

                        Good point.

                        > For instance, I have to wonder about over-emphasizing the discrete
                        > and distinct character of an "experience" of Union with the Holy
                        > Guardian Angel. Isnt that like saying one has a discrete and
                        > distinct "experience" of Knowledge?

                        You're hitting the main point I wanted to make here. Jay seems to
                        be telling us (and forgive me, Jay, if I'm wrong on this) that he
                        views Knowledge and Conversation with the HGA as a singular
                        event- rather than a long and drawn-out process.

                        Think of K&C of the HGA in the same way you would think of
                        enlightenment. It isn't something that just comes at you all at once,
                        and then you are "enlightened" from that day forward. It is
                        something that happens VERY slowly, spread across a long string
                        of interrelated events and moments of realization, over a period of
                        years (or an entire lifetime).

                        The "Knowledge" (that is- marriage) part of the equation can be a
                        singular event. The end result of Abramelin, for instance, results in
                        the permenant bonding of the aspirant and his Guardian. Once it is
                        done, it is done, for better or for worse. Therein lies the ritual
                        experience (initiation) Jay is talking about- and Abramelin is just
                        one small example of this process found in every culture around
                        the world.

                        Yet, the "Conversation" half of this equation is not instant, and does
                        not result from some experience had during Abramelin. In fact, the
                        ritual exhausts the Guardian, and you won't likely hear from Him for
                        some time after the initiation. Then, you'll spend the rest of your
                        life working on building a relationship with this entity- sometimes it
                        is good, sometimes it is unpleasant.

                        Jay has said that he doubts K&C of the HGA can be obtained
                        through ceremony. He's half correct. Knowlege of the HGA can be
                        initiated via ritual methods. But Conversation is a different subject.
                        It can't be forced with a ceremony. Plus, it can take place without
                        any ceremony. I tend to believe that anyone who achieves
                        Conversation- even spontaneously- will eventually arrive at
                        Knowledge (even without ceremony) if that's what the Guardian
                        wants. However, using ceremony to initiate the Knowledge, and
                        THEN working on the Conversation part is very common around
                        the world.

                        LVX
                        Aaron
                      • daimonic666
                        ... I agree that one can take things just a little too seriously regarding the Occult and Magick--but yet, I tend to find that too much is made today of it all
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 2, 2004
                          --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Michael S. Downs"
                          <michael_S_Downs@h...> wrote:
                          > Well, this kind of philosophizing generally just leads to trouble,
                          > but if we treat it from the outset as a game to amuse ourselves
                          > with that we can drop at any time, it might have more lasting value:

                          I agree that one can take things just a little too seriously
                          regarding the Occult and Magick--but yet, I tend to find that too
                          much is made today of it all being just a game; one can visualize
                          anything to suit one's whims and everything is valid. In my opinion,
                          that just makes a mockery out of everything. With no disrepect
                          intended towards Aaron and his book (which I have not read yet),
                          Llewellyn Publishing has done a lot to water down the depth of Occult
                          and Magickal teachings.

                          > Your question assumes a lot of shared belief and specificity to the
                          > concept "Holy Guardian Angel."

                          First, there is no shared 'belief'--only experience. And in my
                          research, I have discovered a lot of similarities between those who
                          have shared this experience.

                          Secondly, often it is assumed that human beings are quite unique and
                          different--and this is not the case. Human beings, I have
                          discovered, are very much "hard-wired" alike--which tends to make
                          many experiences either the same, or very similar--despite cultural
                          differences, location, and era.

                          > Whatever my experiences are and how I choose to categorize them
                          > internally or portray them conceptually for others, it doesnt
                          > change the fact that we will be trading language about experiences
                          > rather than those experiences themselves.

                          If what you state is to be taken to heart, then it's useless for any
                          of us to be in communication with each other on a mailing list--for
                          in anything, we are just trading language and not the experiences
                          themselves.

                          > Having done that a few times before, I personally have
                          > found that the HGA concept is useful and helpful at some times to
                          > focus the essence of certain operations, but a stumbling block in
                          > other times when it stands in the way as a kind of pre-existant
                          > category demanding that I speak through it.

                          I find that the HGA speaks to me--and I relay the information.

                          > For instance, I have to wonder about over-emphasizing the discrete
                          > and distinct character of an "experience" of Union with the Holy
                          > Guardian Angel. Isnt that like saying one has a discrete and
                          > distinct "experience" of Knowledge? Knowledge tends to be less
                          > discrete and distinct in character than it is gradual and integral -
                          > a state that is achieved through background processes -- usually
                          > without fanfare and only rarely with a noticable "AHA!" experience,
                          > but once achieved and recognized, "knowledge" of a thing has a
                          > sense of permanence that makes you "different" than before, this
                          > should be distinguished from those experiences that, however
                          > striking and profoundly in the moment, are merely fleeting in the
                          > sense of a roller-coaster rush that fades. Imagine if you expected
                          > every learning experience to be accompanied by leaping out of the
                          > bathtub and shouting "EUREKA!" This places an unreal burden of
                          > expectation and a distorted focus on one possible aspect of the
                          > path. It is good to have such experiences, but that is not the
                          > only good magickal experience to have that qualifies as deep inner
                          > knowing!

                          I've had Knowledge come to be both ways--instantly--and
                          progressively. But the Knowledge itself will be profound and this is
                          one way in which to identify it.

                          > So -- My point is -- if we liken Evokation to Mathematical
                          > Exercises in school (or school plays if you prefer) -- You might
                          > develop your "HGA of Math" as *an appreciation and inward desire
                          > for the ever-blooming revelatory power of math* at any point along
                          > a long course of graded math exercises -- assuming you dont drop
                          > out and change focus too soon -- but there may not ever be one
                          > single, identifiable experience that is as identifiable as the
                          > overall process is or was. like the debate about "Love at first
                          > sight," it is best to acknowledge love as a state of being with
                          > many gates of entry.

                          I find that you DON'T develop the HGA--it develops YOU.

                          daimonic666
                        • daimonic666
                          ... It s the personal information, I find, to be the most relevant. Concerning my own writings--people want to know what it is that I have experienced--and how
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 2, 2004
                            --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L... wrote:
                            > Greetings Jay,
                            >
                            > The essay you read, of course, outlines just the ritual you are
                            > talking about, the philosophies behind it, etc. Though, it does
                            > not include much personal information about completing the Rite.

                            It's the personal information, I find, to be the most relevant.
                            Concerning my own writings--people want to know what it is that I
                            have experienced--and how I've put the knowledge and experiences into
                            practical application. Telling people how to do something is one
                            thing--but demonstrating and showing results, is another.

                            > As for performing the Rite- yes, I have done so. I'm sorry if you
                            > don't find that convincing, but then I'm not really interested in
                            > convincing anyone. ;)

                            If you want to be taken seriously as an expert and teacher in what
                            you say and write, then you should be concerned with convincing those
                            to whom you reach out. Your very words should convey authority and
                            inner Knowledge with what you write and say--certainly making others
                            take notice.

                            > I have performed it- and you can even see pics of all the tools and
                            > furnishings I used in the photos section of this mailing list. ;)

                            I'm not interested in the tools or ritual itself--I'm interested in
                            YOU. What has happened to YOU from the experience? Has your
                            intellect expanded? Has your accuracy in divinatory techniques
                            increased? Have you suddenly become a Master in art? If the ritual
                            has led you to the Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA--if an inner
                            change has occurred within you--then that change will be manifested
                            outwardly.

                            > I don't think it would be any use at all to debate whether or not
                            > someone here has been successful. No one could possibly ever
                            > "convince" you that they have succeeded. Folks who brag about
                            > having attained Knowledge and Conversation aren't usually much
                            > use in a discussion about the subject...

                            I could take this as a veiled insult, but I won't. I am not bragging
                            about my experiences. However, I am skeptical about claims of
                            attaining union with one's Guardian through ritual. Even the beloved
                            Tao Te Ching states that ritual is the beginning of confusion and
                            results in a dead end. But, I adhere to the Uncertainty Principle--
                            and leave the benefit of the doubt. As an individual who wants to
                            disseminate accurate and truthful information to others, my desire is
                            only to know the facts. If a person has truly contacted his Guardian
                            through ritual--then I want to know about it.

                            One of the powers of the HGA is to test other spirits; to discern
                            their reliability. This would be true with an HGA--one HGA should be
                            able to acknowledge and identify another. Like computers, they would
                            speak the same, or a similar language. There would at least be a
                            recognition of another system--even if it's incompatible.

                            > However, I will be more than happy to discuss Abramelin and my
                            > experiences, and answer any reasonable questions you want to put to
                            > me about it... :)

                            Why didn't you do this to begin with? I was asking about your
                            experiences.

                            daimonic666
                          • daimonic666
                            ... The event meeting the Guardian, for myself, happened in a single night. But the process leading up to--and after the event--occurred over durations of
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 2, 2004
                              --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L... wrote:
                              > On 2 Mar 2004 at 4:42, Michael S. Downs wrote:

                              > > but if we treat it from the outset as a game to amuse ourselves
                              > > with that we can drop at any time, it might have more lasting
                              > > value:

                              > Good point.

                              > > For instance, I have to wonder about over-emphasizing the
                              > > discrete and distinct character of an "experience" of Union with
                              > > the Holy Guardian Angel. Isnt that like saying one has a
                              > > discrete and distinct "experience" of Knowledge?

                              > You're hitting the main point I wanted to make here. Jay seems to
                              > be telling us (and forgive me, Jay, if I'm wrong on this) that he
                              > views Knowledge and Conversation with the HGA as a singular
                              > event- rather than a long and drawn-out process.

                              The event meeting the Guardian, for myself, happened in a single
                              night. But the process leading up to--and after the event--occurred
                              over durations of months. In fact, recognizing actually who the
                              Guardian was, at first, was a struggle. Crowley apparently had the
                              same problem--since he received The Book of the Law in 1904--but
                              then, convinced himself that he achieved success in uniting with his
                              Guardian ritually while visualizing the Abramelin ritual in his head
                              during a trip in China a number of years later. There are other
                              examples of this confusion happening as well.

                              > Think of K&C of the HGA in the same way you would think of
                              > enlightenment. It isn't something that just comes at you all at
                              > once, and then you are "enlightened" from that day forward. It is
                              > something that happens VERY slowly, spread across a long string
                              > of interrelated events and moments of realization, over a period of
                              > years (or an entire lifetime).

                              We all continue to evolve. One can become enlightened in an instant--
                              but still continues to advance in his or her enlightenment. Others
                              may not be so fortunate.


                              > The "Knowledge" (that is- marriage) part of the equation can be a
                              > singular event. The end result of Abramelin, for instance, results
                              > in the permenant bonding of the aspirant and his Guardian. Once it
                              > is done, it is done, for better or for worse.

                              It is not permanent--not "once done, it's done". Enlightenment can
                              be lost--and disconnection can be experienced from one's HGA. Even
                              Crowley wrote about this. One can become divorced from his Genius.

                              > Therein lies the ritual experience (initiation) Jay is talking
                              > about- and Abramelin is just one small example of this process
                              > found in every culture around the world.

                              I've found many instances of involuntary connection with the HGA
                              (such as mine)--but no conscious ritual workings that have
                              succeeded. This is why I'm here--to see if there really are any.

                              > Yet, the "Conversation" half of this equation is not instant, and
                              > does not result from some experience had during Abramelin. In
                              > fact, the ritual exhausts the Guardian, and you won't likely hear
                              > from Him for some time after the initiation.

                              If this is the case--then maybe it's because the Magician is doing
                              something that he or she shouldn't be doing? The Guardian will
                              dictate when it's time to connect--not the other way around. If the
                              Guardian is exhausted, it might be a complaint as to what a stupid
                              idiot its client is turning out to be? :-)

                              > Then, you'll spend the rest of your life working on building a
                              > relationship with this entity- sometimes it is good, sometimes it
                              > is unpleasant.

                              I agree that should the individual maintain connection with his
                              Genius--that through the right mode of living and behavior--the
                              connection should be a life-long relationship. What constitutes
                              the "right mode of living" is dependent on each particular individual.

                              > Jay has said that he doubts K&C of the HGA can be obtained
                              > through ceremony. He's half correct. Knowlege of the HGA can be
                              > initiated via ritual methods.

                              I respectively ask that this be proven. At the very least--make a
                              statement about what you state above, that can't be refuted.

                              > But Conversation is a different subject. It can't be forced with a
                              > ceremony. Plus, it can take place without any ceremony. I tend to
                              > believe that anyone who achieves Conversation- even spontaneously-
                              > will eventually arrive at Knowledge (even without ceremony) if
                              > that's what the Guardian wants.

                              This is the crux of the subject: What the Guardian wants. Too
                              often, the Magician tries to dictate to the Guardian what it is
                              supposed to do--and I don't see the relationship working this way.
                              The Guardian takes the initiative--and if it's Will is refused (which
                              is the Magician's True Will)--then it can withhold its presence--and
                              vanish.

                              > However, using ceremony to initiate the Knowledge, and
                              > THEN working on the Conversation part is very common around
                              > the world.

                              Again, I'm skeptical that anything of worth is happening in what you
                              say above. An individual might kid himself into believing that he
                              has connected with his Guardian, but unless that person shows forth a
                              phenomenal change, it's probably just a bunch of of self-delusion or
                              self-deception. I know without a doubt what it is that I have
                              experienced--and in fact, it's the only Knowledge that really
                              counts: Know Thyself is the famous dictum. Part of this process, by
                              the way, comes about through the name of the Genius--and what that
                              name means.

                              daimonic666
                            • Aaron@Leitch.net
                              ... You haven t asked any questions. So far, you ve only insisted that I prove myself. ;) LVX Aaron
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                On 3 Mar 2004 at 5:18, daimonic666 wrote:

                                > > However, I will be more than happy to discuss Abramelin and my
                                > > experiences, and answer any reasonable questions you want to put to
                                > > me about it... :)
                                >
                                > Why didn't you do this to begin with? I was asking about your
                                > experiences.

                                You haven't asked any questions. So far, you've only insisted that I
                                prove myself. ;)

                                LVX
                                Aaron
                              • Athena
                                I am very curious about your experiences, your emails and how the union came about have been very interesting :). What has changed in your life since the
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                  I am very curious about your experiences, your emails and how the
                                  union came about have been very interesting :). What has changed in
                                  your life since the union? How have you changed? What successes
                                  have you found?
                                  Athena

                                  > Again, I'm skeptical that anything of worth is happening in what
                                  you
                                  > say above. An individual might kid himself into believing that he
                                  > has connected with his Guardian, but unless that person shows forth
                                  a
                                  > phenomenal change, it's probably just a bunch of of self-delusion
                                  or
                                  > self-deception. I know without a doubt what it is that I have
                                  > experienced--and in fact, it's the only Knowledge that really
                                  > counts: Know Thyself is the famous dictum. Part of this process,
                                  by
                                  > the way, comes about through the name of the Genius--and what that
                                  > name means.
                                • daimonic666
                                  ... Aaron, If you go back and read my posts, I did ask questions. You are playing games, now. Your hesitation to answer directly makes me suspicious and
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                    --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron@L... wrote:
                                    > On 3 Mar 2004 at 5:18, daimonic666 wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > > However, I will be more than happy to discuss Abramelin and my
                                    > > > experiences, and answer any reasonable questions you want to
                                    > > > put to me about it... :)

                                    > > Why didn't you do this to begin with? I was asking about your
                                    > > experiences.

                                    > You haven't asked any questions. So far, you've only insisted that
                                    > I prove myself. ;)

                                    Aaron,

                                    If you go back and read my posts, I did ask questions. You are
                                    playing games, now. Your hesitation to answer directly makes me
                                    suspicious and might be THE answer, in itself. On my own group, when
                                    an individual asks me a direct question, I endeavor to give him or
                                    her a direct answer--even if it means saying "I don't know". I don't
                                    allude the issue through evasive tactics.

                                    daimonic666
                                  • daimonic666
                                    ... Hello Athena, I will send you an invitation (as I did another individual on this list) to join my group, Holy Guardian Angel. I hope that you will accept
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                      --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Athena" <sorornaao@h...> wrote:
                                      > I am very curious about your experiences, your emails and how the
                                      > union came about have been very interesting :). What has changed
                                      > in your life since the union? How have you changed? What
                                      > successes have you found?
                                      > Athena

                                      Hello Athena,

                                      I will send you an invitation (as I did another individual on this
                                      list) to join my group, Holy Guardian Angel. I hope that you will
                                      accept it. All answers to any of your questions will be found and/or
                                      answered there.

                                      I would post a link here, but Aaron never gave permission after I had
                                      asked to do so in a previous post. So, be looking for the invitation-
                                      -I'll be e-mailing it to you immediately.

                                      daimonic666
                                    • daimonic666
                                      ... Make that elude . It is one of my hallmarks to spell and use words correctly--and then to make stupid mistakes like this greatly irritates me.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                        --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "daimonic666" <daimonic666@n...
                                        > > allude the issue through evasive tactics.
                                        >
                                        > daimonic666

                                        Make that "elude". It is one of my hallmarks to spell and use words
                                        correctly--and then to make stupid mistakes like this greatly
                                        irritates me.

                                        daimonic666 (embarrassed)

                                        P.S.--Crowley did remark that blushing is an act that is holy. ;-)
                                      • Aaron@Leitch.net
                                        ... Greetings, If you feel that you have received THE answer, then perhaps you have achieved your goal here. So far, you just don t strike me as someone with
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                          On 4 Mar 2004 at 2:34, daimonic666 wrote:

                                          > Aaron,
                                          >
                                          > If you go back and read my posts, I did ask questions. You are
                                          > playing games, now. Your hesitation to answer directly makes me
                                          > suspicious and might be THE answer, in itself. On my own group, when
                                          > an individual asks me a direct question, I endeavor to give him or
                                          > her a direct answer--even if it means saying "I don't know". I don't
                                          > allude the issue through evasive tactics.

                                          Greetings,

                                          If you feel that you have received THE answer, then perhaps you have
                                          achieved your goal here. So far, you just don't strike me as someone with
                                          whom I would wish to discuss these issues. You asked for people to admit
                                          they had achieved K&C of their Guardian Angel via ritual, and then followed it
                                          with several statements that people who believe such are deluded or stupid.
                                          You can't expect people to share openly with you- especially on such a
                                          personal issue- when you display such an attitude.

                                          Perhaps worst of all, you have made repeated mentions of your own mailing
                                          list here- trolling my list for members. (And I've been VERY nice about it,
                                          too...)

                                          I have given you many short answers, veiled hints, and just several chances in
                                          general to come down to my level and discuss things. Alas, it appears the
                                          bottom line is that you feel you are the Master here, and we should all be your
                                          students (and members of your mailing list). You will find that this won't work
                                          here- at least not for long. For the time being, I can find no reason to continue
                                          communicating with you at all.

                                          LVX
                                          Aaron
                                        • Aaron@Leitch.net
                                          ... Sorry about that. Things have been hectic, and I haven t been able to keep up with everything... Anyway, just throw a link to your mailing list in our
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                            On 4 Mar 2004 at 2:40, daimonic666 wrote:

                                            > I would post a link here, but Aaron never gave permission after I had
                                            > asked to do so in a previous post. So, be looking for the invitation-
                                            > -I'll be e-mailing it to you immediately.

                                            Sorry about that. Things have been hectic, and I haven't been able to keep
                                            up with everything... Anyway, just throw a link to your mailing list in our
                                            links section. It would fit under member favorites.

                                            LVX
                                            Aaron
                                          • Michael S. Downs
                                            Time is *relatively* dear, and talk *generally* cheap, Id speak in depth and detail if I hadn t fallen asleep! Now Im at work, no time to play, Have to defer
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 4, 2004
                                              Time is *relatively* dear, and talk *generally* cheap,
                                              Id speak in depth and detail if I hadn't fallen asleep!

                                              Now Im at work, no time to play,
                                              Have to defer this "great dialogue" for another day.

                                              You must think what you please about this specific response,
                                              But I've already stated my general opinion once...

                                              Sincerely,

                                              Michael S. Downs


                                              --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "daimonic666" <daimonic666@n...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Michael S. Downs"
                                              > <michael_S_Downs@h...> wrote:
                                              > > Well, this kind of philosophizing generally just leads to
                                              trouble,
                                              > > but if we treat it from the outset as a game to amuse ourselves
                                              > > with that we can drop at any time, it might have more lasting
                                              value:
                                              >
                                              > I agree that one can take things just a little too seriously
                                              > regarding the Occult and Magick--but yet, I tend to find that too
                                              > much is made today of it all being just a game; one can visualize
                                              > anything to suit one's whims and everything is valid. In my
                                              opinion,
                                              > that just makes a mockery out of everything. With no disrepect
                                              > intended towards Aaron and his book (which I have not read yet),
                                              > Llewellyn Publishing has done a lot to water down the depth of
                                              Occult
                                              > and Magickal teachings.
                                              >
                                              > > Your question assumes a lot of shared belief and specificity to
                                              the
                                              > > concept "Holy Guardian Angel."
                                              >
                                              > First, there is no shared 'belief'--only experience. And in my
                                              > research, I have discovered a lot of similarities between those who
                                              > have shared this experience.
                                              >
                                              > Secondly, often it is assumed that human beings are quite unique
                                              and
                                              > different--and this is not the case. Human beings, I have
                                              > discovered, are very much "hard-wired" alike--which tends to make
                                              > many experiences either the same, or very similar--despite cultural
                                              > differences, location, and era.
                                              >
                                              > > Whatever my experiences are and how I choose to categorize them
                                              > > internally or portray them conceptually for others, it doesnt
                                              > > change the fact that we will be trading language about
                                              experiences
                                              > > rather than those experiences themselves.
                                              >
                                              > If what you state is to be taken to heart, then it's useless for
                                              any
                                              > of us to be in communication with each other on a mailing list--for
                                              > in anything, we are just trading language and not the experiences
                                              > themselves.
                                              >
                                              > > Having done that a few times before, I personally have
                                              > > found that the HGA concept is useful and helpful at some times to
                                              > > focus the essence of certain operations, but a stumbling block in
                                              > > other times when it stands in the way as a kind of pre-existant
                                              > > category demanding that I speak through it.
                                              >
                                              > I find that the HGA speaks to me--and I relay the information.
                                              >
                                              > > For instance, I have to wonder about over-emphasizing the
                                              discrete
                                              > > and distinct character of an "experience" of Union with the Holy
                                              > > Guardian Angel. Isnt that like saying one has a discrete and
                                              > > distinct "experience" of Knowledge? Knowledge tends to be less
                                              > > discrete and distinct in character than it is gradual and
                                              integral -
                                              > > a state that is achieved through background processes -- usually
                                              > > without fanfare and only rarely with a noticable "AHA!"
                                              experience,
                                              > > but once achieved and recognized, "knowledge" of a thing has a
                                              > > sense of permanence that makes you "different" than before, this
                                              > > should be distinguished from those experiences that, however
                                              > > striking and profoundly in the moment, are merely fleeting in the
                                              > > sense of a roller-coaster rush that fades. Imagine if you
                                              expected
                                              > > every learning experience to be accompanied by leaping out of the
                                              > > bathtub and shouting "EUREKA!" This places an unreal burden of
                                              > > expectation and a distorted focus on one possible aspect of the
                                              > > path. It is good to have such experiences, but that is not the
                                              > > only good magickal experience to have that qualifies as deep
                                              inner
                                              > > knowing!
                                              >
                                              > I've had Knowledge come to be both ways--instantly--and
                                              > progressively. But the Knowledge itself will be profound and this
                                              is
                                              > one way in which to identify it.
                                              >
                                              > > So -- My point is -- if we liken Evokation to Mathematical
                                              > > Exercises in school (or school plays if you prefer) -- You might
                                              > > develop your "HGA of Math" as *an appreciation and inward desire
                                              > > for the ever-blooming revelatory power of math* at any point
                                              along
                                              > > a long course of graded math exercises -- assuming you dont drop
                                              > > out and change focus too soon -- but there may not ever be one
                                              > > single, identifiable experience that is as identifiable as the
                                              > > overall process is or was. like the debate about "Love at first
                                              > > sight," it is best to acknowledge love as a state of being with
                                              > > many gates of entry.
                                              >
                                              > I find that you DON'T develop the HGA--it develops YOU.
                                              >
                                              > daimonic666
                                            • Dances with Werewolves
                                              ... I remember a good quote from a card game I like to play. It goes like this: All this nonsense made by mages, Rusts and crumbles through the ages. Typical
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 4, 2004
                                                > You must think what you please about this specific
                                                > response,
                                                > But I've already stated my general opinion once...

                                                I remember a good quote from a card game I like to
                                                play. It goes like this:

                                                "All this nonsense made by mages,
                                                Rusts and crumbles through the ages."

                                                Typical for our time and the role-playing crowd, it
                                                offers no sense of hope or any way out of the bind. :)

                                                [DwW]

                                                =====
                                                :[Varia Underweb]:.





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