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Re: [solomonic] Images of the 36 decans

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  • Uri Raz
    I m subscribed to ritual-magic as well, so I m seeing double . I ve taken a look at Wallis Budge s book - it gives the pictures, but no meanings - guess I ll
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 1, 2003
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      I'm subscribed to ritual-magic as well, so I'm 'seeing double'.

      I've taken a look at Wallis Budge's book - it gives the pictures, but no meanings - guess I'll have to reverse engineer those from the pictures.

      Beyond the images themselves, I wonder about the meanings / powers of the decans. Not knowing astrology, I get the impression most modern tarotists interpret the golden dawn astrological attributions as transits (e.g. two of swords as the moon passing through libra), while Mathers intended to attribute meanings like those given by Agrippa.

      Uri.

      At 08:17 AM 10/1/2003 +0000, you wrote:
      >Date sent: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:42:27 -0400
      >From: "Christopher Warnock, Esq." <chriswarnock@...>
      >Subject: Re: [ritual-magic] Re: [solomonic] Images of the 36 decans
      >To: ritual-magic@yahoogroups.com
      >Send reply to: ritual-magic@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >I just wanted to mention that Nigel Jackson has been working on many images
      >from Agrippa and Picatrix.
      >
      >We have a full set of 7 planetary images in my Planetary Magic Mini-Course
      >http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/minicourseplanetarymagicinfo.html
      >
      >and a full set of images for the 28 Mansions of the Moon (some are double
      >images) in my Mansions of the Moon Mini-Course
      >http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/minicoursemansionsinfo.html
      >
      >We also have images of the fixed stars Spica, Procyon and Sirius. You can
      >see part of the Spica image at
      >http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/chartweek9-27-03.html
      >
      >However, Nigel has not done images of the decans yet!
      >
      >Christopher Warnock, Esq.
      >Renaissance Astrology & Astrological Magic
      >chriswarnock@...
      >Renaissance Astrology Web Site
      >http://www.renaissanceastrology.com
      >
      >>
      >> Hmmm... trying to find the actual images might be a bit difficult.
      >> I'm not sure, but perhaps the Picatrix has such pictures.
      >>
      >> Of course, Agrippa (and similar sources) go into enough detail you
      >> could draw them from scratch.
      >>
      >> LVX
      >> Aaron
      >>
    • Dances with Werewolves
      Anybody know the origins of Names for the elemental spirits in modern Hermetic magic? Ariel I know, and Seraph, but I mean the others.. Chassan , Taliahad ,
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 1, 2003
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        Anybody know the origins of Names for the elemental
        spirits in modern Hermetic magic?

        Ariel I know, and Seraph, but I mean the others..
        "Chassan", "Taliahad", "Tharsis", etc.

        Just any clues would be fine with me, especially
        short-winded ones that don't link to outside sites.

        [DwW]

        =====
        Varia - Cryptic Electronic Music - http://www.mp3.com/varia

        Liber L = I:31
        "For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones."

        __________________________________
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        The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
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      • Aaron@Leitch.net
        ... Sorry about that. I know a few of you are set up this way, so I limit cross-posting to as little as possible. ... A tricky task, but not necessarily
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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          On 1 Oct 2003 at 17:47, Uri Raz wrote:

          > I'm subscribed to ritual-magic as well, so I'm 'seeing double'.

          Sorry about that. I know a few of you are set up this way, so I limit
          cross-posting to "as little as possible."

          > I've taken a look at Wallis Budge's book - it gives the pictures, but no meanings - guess I'll have to reverse engineer those from the pictures.

          A tricky task, but not necessarily impossible. We could probably hash
          them out here.

          > Beyond the images themselves, I wonder about the meanings / powers of the decans. Not knowing astrology, I get the impression most modern tarotists interpret the golden dawn astrological attributions as transits (e.g. two of swords as the moon passing through libra), while Mathers intended to attribute meanings like those given by Agrippa.

          As for Mathers and company- they were intending to illustrate the
          Decans associated with each zodiac sign- using the "Chaldean Order"
          or (as we know it) the "Tree of Life Order" of Decans. You know this
          already- I'm just stating it for the record. ;)

          I haven't met anyone (into modern Tarot work) that interprets the
          planets/signs as zodiacal/planetart transits. But, it's not like I hang out
          with a lot of modern Tarot readers- at least not the kind who don't
          recognize Decanates. :)

          The idea is interesting, though. It seems to me that you DO interpret
          the Decans pretty much as you would a transit. The 2 of Swords
          (Luna Decan of Libra) would indicate the same idea as the Moon
          passing *through* Libra. The difference is that, with the Decan, you
          are not taking Luna's dignity or aspects into account.

          (Then again- wouldn't Luna's aspects and dignity have an affect on all
          the Luna Decanates in the chart? Something to think about there...)

          LVX
          Aaron
        • Aaron@Leitch.net
          Hmmm... damned good question. Maybe too good- I don t know if *anyone* knows the answer to that. Maybe we should ask the folks over on Ritual Magick as
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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            Hmmm... damned good question. Maybe too good- I don't know if
            *anyone* knows the answer to that. Maybe we should ask the folks
            over on Ritual Magick as well... Zad or Christopher might know.

            LVX
            Aaron

            On 1 Oct 2003 at 15:40, Dances with Werewolves wrote:

            > Anybody know the origins of Names for the elemental
            > spirits in modern Hermetic magic?
            >
            > Ariel I know, and Seraph, but I mean the others..
            > "Chassan", "Taliahad", "Tharsis", etc.
            >
            > Just any clues would be fine with me, especially
            > short-winded ones that don't link to outside sites.
            >
            > [DwW]
            >
            > =====
            > Varia - Cryptic Electronic Music - http://www.mp3.com/varia
            >
            > Liber L = I:31
            > "For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones."
            >
            > __________________________________
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            > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
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            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > solomonic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Aaron@Leitch.net
            ... Wow. I had never noticed this! Cool work! ... Please do! I for one would love to see it. ... This is also acceptable. It is the Ruling Planet
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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              On 2 Oct 2003 at 11:55, Uri Raz wrote:

              > In the mean-time I'm comparing Agrippa's descriptions of the decans to the card meanings from
              > Book T, with some positive results.
              >
              > E.g. Agrippa says of Taurus' 2nd decan "it giveth power, nobility, and dominion over people:",
              > and Mathers says of 6 of Pents "Success and gain in material undertakings. Power, influence,
              > rank, nobility, rule over the people. Fortunate, successful, liberal and just. If ill dignified, may be
              > purse-proud, insolent from excess, or prodigal" - all three keywords/phrases repeat.

              Wow. I had never noticed this! Cool work!

              > I'm doing the comparison by cutting and pasting the meanings from the electronic versions of the
              > texts into a text file, and marking the similar keywords with bold underlined font, so if anyone's
              > interested in the table, I can upload the resulting web page to my web site and post the link to the
              > list.

              Please do! I for one would love to see it.

              > But then some astrologers (e.g. at least two prominent Israeli astrologers I know) say the Libra's
              > 1st decan's ruler is Venus, not the Moon.

              This is also acceptable. It is the "Ruling Planet" ordering of Decanates. In this
              system, the zodiacal triplicities are taken into account. So, each Sign has three
              Decans:

              First Decan = Ruling Planet of the Sign
              (Such as Venus for Libra).
              Second Decan = Ruling Planet of the NEXT Sign of that Triplicity
              (Aquarius- ruled by Saturn- follows Libra in the Air triplicity.
              So, Saturn rules the Second Decan of Libra.)
              Third Decan = Ruling Planet of the NEXT Sign of that Triplicity
              (Following Aquarius in the triplicity is Gemini, ruled by Mercury.
              So Mercury rules the Third Decan of Libra.)

              The same pattern is followed for the other two signs in the triplicity- rotating the
              planetary attributions so that each sign starts with its' own Ruling Planet:

              Libra: 1) Venus, 2) Saturn, 3) Mercury
              Aquar: 1) Saturn, 2) Mercury, 3) Venus
              Gemini: 1) Mercury, 2) Venus, 3) Saturn

              Agrippa explains this system AND the Chaldean ordering in the Three Books. One
              system he calls the Decanates, and the other he calls the "Faces." Throughout his
              work, though, he mixes up the two systems as if they were one. (Personally, I
              recommend against this. I would pick one or the other and stick with it.)

              The GD, of course, chose the Chaldean ordering because it was the same used for
              the Tree of Life.

              LVX
              Aaron
            • Uri Raz
              ... I ll start over the weekend (I have Fri-Mon inclusive off, so it s a good opportunity, but then again I ll probably be at the Beit-Knesset most of Monday).
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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                At 04:28 AM 10/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                On 1 Oct 2003 at 17:47, Uri Raz wrote:
                > I've taken a look at Wallis Budge's book - it gives the pictures, but no meanings - guess I'll have to reverse engineer those from the pictures.

                A tricky task, but not necessarily impossible.  We could probably hash them out here.

                I'll start over the weekend (I have Fri-Mon inclusive off, so it's a good opportunity, but then again I'll probably be at the Beit-Knesset most of Monday).

                In the mean-time I'm comparing Agrippa's descriptions of the decans to the card meanings from Book T, with some positive results.

                E.g. Agrippa says of Taurus' 2nd decan "it giveth power, nobility, and dominion over people:", and Mathers says of 6 of Pents "Success and gain in material undertakings. Power, influence, rank, nobility, rule over the people. Fortunate, successful, liberal and just. If ill dignified, may be purse-proud, insolent from excess, or prodigal" - all three keywords/phrases repeat.

                I'm doing the comparison by cutting and pasting the meanings from the electronic versions of the texts into a text file, and marking the similar keywords with bold underlined font, so if anyone's interested in the table, I can upload the resulting web page to my web site and post the link to the list.

                > Beyond the images themselves, I wonder about the meanings / powers of the decans. Not knowing astrology, I get the impression most
                > modern tarotists interpret the golden dawn astrological attributions as transits (e.g. two of swords as the moon passing through libra), while
                > Mathers intended to attribute meanings like those given by Agrippa.

                As for Mathers and company- they were intending to illustrate the
                Decans associated with each zodiac sign- using the "Chaldean Order"
                or (as we know it) the "Tree of Life Order" of Decans.  You know this
                already- I'm just stating it for the record.  ;)

                I haven't met anyone (into modern Tarot work) that interprets the
                planets/signs as zodiacal/planetart transits.  But, it's not like I hang out
                with a lot of modern Tarot readers- at least not the kind who don't
                recognize Decanates.  :)

                I should start hanging where you do ...

                There's an Israeli tarot forum manager (of the half a dozen or so Israeli tarot forums, it was by far the most popular for about two years, up until a few months ago) who interprets the attributions as transits, just as if she was looking at a natal chart.

                You're probably not subscribed to TarotL - in the past few years I've seen a few people say that they miss a few combinations of planets/signs, expecting there to be 7 (or 10) planets X 12 signs, which basically means they look at the attributions as transits, rather then decans.

                The idea is interesting, though.  It seems to me that you DO interpret
                the Decans pretty much as you would a transit.  The 2 of Swords
                (Luna Decan of Libra) would indicate the same idea as the Moon
                passing *through* Libra.  The difference is that, with the Decan, you
                are not taking Luna's dignity or aspects into account.

                But then some astrologers (e.g. at least two prominent Israeli astrologers I know) say the Libra's 1st decan's ruler is Venus, not the Moon.

                The similarity is certainly there - to say that planet X rules decan Y says that those two astrological entities are similar in meaning, just as when speaking of exaltations and dignities.

                Uri Raz.
              • pansophia33
                Dear DwW, If the Greater Key of Solomon really is older than Agrippa s Three Books (the matter is controversial among historians) the oldest source mentioning
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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                  Dear DwW,

                  If the Greater Key of Solomon really is older than Agrippa's Three
                  Books (the matter is controversial among historians) the oldest source
                  mentioning these elemental spirits by name is the Greater Key of
                  Solomon.

                  Yours sincerely

                  Joe

                  --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Dances with Werewolves
                  <yotxeskcufdnim@y...> wrote:
                  > Anybody know the origins of Names for the elemental
                  > spirits in modern Hermetic magic?
                  >
                  > Ariel I know, and Seraph, but I mean the others..
                  > "Chassan", "Taliahad", "Tharsis", etc.
                  >
                  > Just any clues would be fine with me, especially
                  > short-winded ones that don't link to outside sites.
                  >
                  > [DwW]
                  >
                  > =====
                  > Varia - Cryptic Electronic Music - http://www.mp3.com/varia
                  >
                  > Liber L = I:31
                  > "For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They
                  feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen
                  ones."
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
                  > http://shopping.yah
                • Uri Raz
                  ... It s about 2/3rds done now, so you can take an early look - http://www.tarot.org.il/English/decans.html When I m done I ll add a paragraph with
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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                    At 05:31 AM 10/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                    >On 2 Oct 2003 at 11:55, Uri Raz wrote:
                    >> I'm doing the comparison by cutting and pasting the meanings from the electronic versions of the
                    >> texts into a text file, and marking the similar keywords with bold underlined font, so if anyone's
                    >> interested in the table, I can upload the resulting web page to my web site and post the link to the
                    >> list.
                    >
                    >Please do! I for one would love to see it.

                    It's about 2/3rds done now, so you can take an early look - http://www.tarot.org.il/English/decans.html

                    When I'm done I'll add a paragraph with conclusions, maybe with a bit of stats.

                    Uri.
                  • Uri Raz
                    ... http://www.tarot.org.il/English/decans.html Uri Raz.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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                      At 05:31 AM 10/2/2003 -0400, Aaron Leitch wrote:
                      On 2 Oct 2003 at 11:55, Uri Raz wrote:
                      > I'm doing the comparison by cutting and pasting the meanings from the electronic versions of the
                      > texts into a text file, and marking the similar keywords with bold underlined font, so if anyone's
                      > interested in the table, I can upload the resulting web page to my web site and post the link to the
                      > list.

                      Please do!  I for one would love to see it.

                      http://www.tarot.org.il/English/decans.html

                      Uri Raz.
                    • Dances with Werewolves
                      ... *sigh* This should be Hermetic Magic 101. In my opinion, if people don t know where their system comes from, it s no better than superstition. This lack of
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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                        > Hmmm... damned good question. Maybe too good- I
                        > don't know if *anyone* knows the answer to that.

                        *sigh* This should be Hermetic Magic 101.

                        In my opinion, if people don't know where their system
                        comes from, it's no better than superstition.

                        This lack of "common knowledge" in favor of mystery
                        and power is probably a prime reason why our average
                        modern magician "couldn't cast his way out of a wet
                        paper bag."

                        ...

                        I'll start the first clue. Ariel comes from
                        Shakespeare. Other works of the time liked having
                        Ariel as the stereotype "familiar spirit".

                        I think the elemental names were converted to Hebrew.
                        "Ariel" in Hebrew means "Lion of God", which is
                        probably an accident of transliteration. From the
                        Hermetic standpoint, "Ariel" should be a fire spirit.
                        "Ariel" seems to have roots in French folklore.

                        The others are probably similar. Folklore creatures
                        converted over to Hebrew.

                        This also suggests the Hermetic elemetal names are on
                        a near-superstition level and can be renovated and/or
                        deleted for replacement.


                        > Maybe we should ask the folks over on Ritual Magick
                        > as well... Zad or Christopher might know.

                        You could. I left the group. This and another are the
                        only magic groups I participate in now.

                        [DwW]

                        =====
                        Varia - Cryptic Electronic Music - http://www.mp3.com/varia

                        Liber L = I:31
                        "For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones."

                        __________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
                        http://shopping.yahoo.com
                      • Dances with Werewolves
                        ... Yeah, on that one seal to make earthquakes I think... I ll check that out later and fume some more. ;) [DwW] ===== Varia - Cryptic Electronic Music -
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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                          > If the Greater Key of Solomon really is older than
                          > Agrippa's Three
                          > Books (the matter is controversial among historians)
                          > the oldest source
                          > mentioning these elemental spirits by name is the
                          > Greater Key of Solomon.

                          Yeah, on that one seal to make earthquakes I think...
                          I'll check that out later and fume some more. ;)

                          [DwW]


                          =====
                          Varia - Cryptic Electronic Music - http://www.mp3.com/varia

                          Liber L = I:31
                          "For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones."

                          __________________________________
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
                          http://shopping.yahoo.com
                        • Aaron@Leitch.net
                          VERY cool. :) Thanks for sharing this. I would say there is definitely enough similarities to suggest Mathers was drawing from Arippa. LVX Aaron
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 2, 2003
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                            VERY cool. :) Thanks for sharing this. I would say there is
                            definitely enough similarities to suggest Mathers was drawing from
                            Arippa.

                            LVX
                            Aaron

                            On 2 Oct 2003 at 14:18, Uri Raz wrote:

                            > At 05:31 AM 10/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                            > >On 2 Oct 2003 at 11:55, Uri Raz wrote:
                            > >> I'm doing the comparison by cutting and pasting the meanings from the electronic versions of the
                            > >> texts into a text file, and marking the similar keywords with bold underlined font, so if anyone's
                            > >> interested in the table, I can upload the resulting web page to my web site and post the link to the
                            > >> list.
                            > >
                            > >Please do! I for one would love to see it.
                            >
                            > It's about 2/3rds done now, so you can take an early look - http://www.tarot.org.il/English/decans.html
                            >
                            > When I'm done I'll add a paragraph with conclusions, maybe with a bit of stats.
                            >
                            > Uri.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > solomonic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
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