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Christeos Luciftias!

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  • kheph777 <Aaron@Leitch.net>
    And there was a Mailing List! Greetings and Welcome! LVX Aaron
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 1, 2003
      And there was a Mailing List!

      Greetings and Welcome!

      LVX
      Aaron
    • Dances with Werewolves <yotxeskcufdnim@y
      Hopefully, now I can discuss those little verses on the seals without getting bogged down by why do that at all? opinions... Actually, I d like to know about
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 1, 2003
        Hopefully, now I can discuss those little verses on the seals
        without getting bogged down by "why do that at all?" opinions...

        Actually, I'd like to know about those little hands pointing and the
        other pictures on the seals. Ideas?

        [DwW]
        (who is good at sparking)
      • Aaron Leitch
        ... Yep! Feel free to talk about it all. Santeria, sacrifice, magickal use of Psalms. I can t wait for you to have this book, Ryan. It s got answers to
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 2, 2003
          On 2 Mar 2003, at 5:46, Dances with Werewolves yotxeskcufdnim@yah wrote:

          > Hopefully, now I can discuss those little verses on the seals
          > without getting bogged down by "why do that at all?" opinions...

          Yep! Feel free to talk about it all. Santeria, sacrifice, magickal use of
          Psalms. I can't wait for you to have this book, Ryan. It's got answers to just
          about every question you've asked me in the last few years. I kept quiet, for
          the most part, because I didn't want to transmit so much of the copyright
          material over email.

          Plus, it's easier to get me to reply on an email list. :)

          > Actually, I'd like to know about those little hands pointing and the
          > other pictures on the seals. Ideas?

          The "other pictures" are usually iconographic- depicting visually the magickal
          force in question. The pic of a Scorpion on one of the Key's Mars talismans
          (for one example) indicates the natural rulership Mars holds over Scorpius.
          Quite a number of talismanic images (like the Goetic spirits) descend from
          Egyptian and Mesopotamian iconography of the zodiac and decans.

          As for the hands- that's hard to say. It was probably a mark of notation-
          indicating that the Name or verse pointed out was vital to the magick. Dee
          marked several of his entries in his journals with a similar hand.

          LVX
          Aaron
        • Dances with Werewolves
          ... Ah.. I felt so dumb after my last message, and I feel dumb after something I just did. *groans* :D (wanted to privately invite someone from another list,
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 2, 2003
            > > Hopefully, now I can discuss those little verses
            > on the seals
            > > without getting bogged down by "why do that at
            > all?" opinions...
            >
            > Yep! Feel free to talk about it all.

            Ah.. I felt so dumb after my last message, and I feel
            dumb after something I just did. *groans* :D (wanted
            to privately invite someone from another list, but
            exclude the idiots that recently plagued it. I forgot
            to re-address it to the private email.....)


            > Santeria, sacrifice, magickal use of Psalms. I
            > can't wait for you to have this book, Ryan. It's
            > got answers to just about every question you've
            > asked me in the last few years. I kept quiet, for
            > the most part, because I didn't want to transmit so
            > much of the copyright material over email.

            There goes more of that fig leaf. ;D Well, I'll get it
            whenever the option comes, and otherwise, I agree with
            what you just said. (copyright issues and such)

            Is the book available through Borders yet?


            > The "other pictures" are usually iconographic-
            > depicting visually the magickal force in question.
            > The pic of a Scorpion on one of the Key's Mars
            > talismans (for one example) indicates the natural
            > rulership Mars holds over Scorpius.

            The ones I don't understand are the 8-pointed wheels
            and the hexagram ones. (though, if made today, they
            would be clear to me) I noticed some have geomancy.


            > Quite a number of talismanic images (like the Goetic
            > spirits) descend from
            > Egyptian and Mesopotamian iconography of the zodiac
            > and decans.

            Links?


            > As for the hands- that's hard to say. It was
            > probably a mark of notation- indicating that the
            > Name or verse pointed out was vital to the magick.
            > Dee marked several of his entries in his journals
            > with a similar hand.

            A lot of Renaissance artists do that too. The thing
            they're pointing to is "their interest" or their
            involvement. (like a painter pointing to a painting)

            Sometimes, I noticed on some of the seals the name is
            YHVH or something similar - and wondered why the Deity
            and not the servant?



            A while ago, I was trying to make a Discordian
            imitation of the Key. (I would like to make a
            Discordian grimoire.) The images on the Key seals were
            something that was stumbling me. The Principia has
            some useful imagery and many excellent versicles, but
            I needed to know what the Key was doing any why.
            However, I did make a precious Mao button... ;P

            The idea, I supposed, was to take the basic concept
            and switch "Judeo-Christian" for "Discordian", but the
            Key really isn't clean-cut like that.

            [DwW]

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          • Aaron Leitch
            ... No prob. I doubt they (the idiots) would have much fun here if they did follow. ... Oops. Sorry. :/ ... Well, I just checked Borders.com - and they ve
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 4, 2003
              On 2 Mar 2003, at 21:09, Dances with Werewolves wrote:

              > Ah.. I felt so dumb after my last message, and I feel
              > dumb after something I just did. *groans* :D (wanted
              > to privately invite someone from another list, but
              > exclude the idiots that recently plagued it. I forgot
              > to re-address it to the private email.....)

              No prob. I doubt they (the idiots) would have much fun here if they did follow.

              > There goes more of that fig leaf. ;D Well, I'll get it

              Oops. Sorry. :/

              > Is the book available through Borders yet?

              Well, I just checked Borders.com - and they've teamed up with Amazon, so
              it's there. You could probably put it on order at the store, too.

              > > The "other pictures" are usually iconographic-
              > > depicting visually the magickal force in question.
              > > The pic of a Scorpion on one of the Key's Mars
              > > talismans (for one example) indicates the natural
              > > rulership Mars holds over Scorpius.
              >
              > The ones I don't understand are the 8-pointed wheels
              > and the hexagram ones. (though, if made today, they
              > would be clear to me) I noticed some have geomancy.

              I know that the number 8 was much more sacred in times past than it is
              among us today. You can see where it runs throughout Dee's Heptarchic
              magick, for instance. And, you can see it in the Key of Solomon with its
              constant use of eight-pointed figures regardless of the "Qabalistic number" of
              the planet. Even today, the Eastern Orthodox Church holds 8 as sacred.

              In all of these cases, it is based first upon the number 7: 7 Days of Creation,
              7 Planets, 7 Archangels, etc. But, there is always a silent 8th implied.
              Such as the 7 Days of Creation plus the End Times (found throughout Dee's
              magick).

              > > Quite a number of talismanic images (like the Goetic
              > > spirits) descend from
              > > Egyptian and Mesopotamian iconography of the zodiac
              > > and decans.
              >
              > Links?

              Hmmmm... good question. I know the Penn State books talk about it. (I
              think it's Richard Keikhefer's "Forbidden Rites") But, I don't know of any
              grimoiric web pages that go into that kind of depth.

              > Sometimes, I noticed on some of the seals the name is
              > YHVH or something similar - and wondered why the Deity
              > and not the servant?

              There are two types of Talisman in this regard:

              1) The first type displays the Sigil (that is- Signature) of the entity you're
              working with. (The servant.) That's what you see in the Goetia- and the
              spirit is intended to actually inhabit a Talisman that displays its Signature.

              2) The other type is the "badge of authority" Talisman. Whatever spirits one
              happens to summon are shown these Talismans to "strike awe" into them,
              and force them into obedience. Simply put, it is the magickal equivalent of a
              police officer serving a warrant on a mere citizen. Thus- these Talismans
              display the Names and Images of the Deity, and are not intended for actual
              habitation by the spirits. This, in fact, is what you see in the Key of
              Solomon and Abramelin.

              > A while ago, I was trying to make a Discordian
              > imitation of the Key. (I would like to make a
              > Discordian grimoire.)
              >The images on the Key seals were
              > something that was stumbling me. The Principia has
              > some useful imagery and many excellent versicles, but
              > I needed to know what the Key was doing any why.
              > However, I did make a precious Mao button... ;P

              Mao or Chao?

              > The idea, I supposed, was to take the basic concept
              > and switch "Judeo-Christian" for "Discordian", but the
              > Key really isn't clean-cut like that.

              Absolutely not. I mean, you could make a Discordian grimoire if you wanted.
              But, the Key and similar texts are not at all clean cut. That's because they
              are from Agricultural times: pre-Industrial.

              During the Industrial age, *everything* became ordered and clean cut.
              Standardization was the rule. Even magick became Industrial- ceremonies
              were created from pre-produced componants that were strung together as
              needed.

              But the grimoires are from an Agricultural time when *nothing* was
              standardized. Not government or education, not even spelling! There was no
              standard money, no standard weights or measurements. Etc etc etc. The
              Church wanted desperately to standardize (catholicize) religion- but they
              ultimately failed. In fact, there would not be a truly standardized religion, I
              think, until the religion of Americanism arose during and after the Industrial
              Revolution.

              The grimoires are shamanic, plain and simple. They are infinitely closer to
              Voodoo, Santeria or Palo (or even American Indian Shamanism for that
              matter), then they are to post-Industrial (clean-cut) orders like the Golden
              Dawn.

              Thats why the grimoires are so hard to grasp for us Industrial-cum-
              Information Age folks. We want them to fit our neatly ordered sensibilities-
              but they simply don't work that way. They CAN be re-worked into forms
              more easily grasped by the modern mind (which is what Secrets is all about,
              really). But, even that wasn't possible before now. The grimoires seem to
              have literally sat around and waited for the Standardized Industrial Age to
              pass. Now, in the Information Age, where nothing is standard and there's a
              focus group for *everything,* interest in the Olde Magicks seems to be
              enjoying a small revival among certain weirdoes. ;)

              LVX
              Aaron
            • Dances with Werewolves
              ... where it runs throughout Dee s Heptarchic magick, ... From something I ve read (somewhere?), it seems like numerology may have been a lot more advanced
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 4, 2003
                > I know that the number 8 was much more sacred in
                > times past than it is among us today. You can see >
                where it runs throughout Dee's Heptarchic magick,
                > for instance. And, you can see it in the Key of
                > Solomon with its constant use of eight-pointed
                > figures regardless of the "Qabalistic number" of
                > the planet. Even today, the Eastern Orthodox Church
                > holds 8 as sacred.

                From something I've read (somewhere?), it seems like
                numerology may have been a lot more advanced than we
                now give it credit for. I don't remember where, but I
                recall stories of mages levelling trees by writing
                numbers in the soil, causing storms and such just with
                numbers.

                The "Qabalistic numbers", I think, are totally
                mutable. 8 = Splendor works as a core, but people
                change the meaning of "Splendor" so often. The best
                I've seen so far is the Tree with "Splendor" as Venus
                and "Victory" as Mars. (which makes sense in a sense)
                For this reason, I disregard them unless something is
                obviously based on one of the mutations. I see them
                more like a 'blank canvas' now, to be filled in.

                Aside from that, ancients seemed to regard every
                number as sacred - for some reason or another.
                According to Agrippa, 8 represents "Fullness" and
                "Abundance", but does that make sense with the Key
                seals?

                For advanced Gematria: I think our standards for
                numerology currently are pathetically low. There are
                methods though. I think one possible use would be
                magical equations. (pulled from mathematics) Just as
                an enchantment fills poetry with Sacred Words and
                works it into a spell, I think a Gematrick mage can
                possibly fill math equations with Sacred Numbers and
                work them into spells. (as one potential method)

                Aside from this - I have an opinion about the
                interaction of Mathematicians and Numerologers.
                If one considers Mathematics on the side of "Science"
                and Numerology on the side of "Religion", it becomes
                more clear.

                A Mathematician focuses on the Measurement of Numbers.
                A Numerologist focuses on the Symbolism of Numbers.

                As "Measurement" is Objective, so "Symbolism" is
                Subjective. In some ways, these can interact.
                With this in mind, I think the seperation between
                Science and Religion can again be healed. So long as
                "Symbolism" isn't regarded as Science, and
                "Measurement" isn't regarded as Religion. ;)

                (2 become 1)


                > But, there is always a silent 8th implied.

                This can be applied to any number over 2. I generally
                don't like the idea, but sometimes it works, if the
                hidden One contains the Many surrounding it.


                > Such as the 7 Days of Creation plus the End Times
                > (found throughout Dee's magick).

                A while ago, I found a page called "The Catholic
                Prophets", which had a large number of End Times
                stories. The common opinion seems to hold the
                Antichrist as Jewish, though I like the Emperor Nero
                theory better. (New Jerusalem = Vatican City then)


                > There are two types of Talisman in this regard:
                >
                > 1) The first type displays the Sigil (that is-
                > Signature) of the entity you're
                > working with. (The servant.) That's what you see
                > in the Goetia- and the
                > spirit is intended to actually inhabit a Talisman
                > that displays its Signature.


                > Thus- these Talismans display the Names and Images >
                of the Deity, and are not intended for actual
                > habitation by the spirits. This, in fact, is what
                > you see in the Key of Solomon and Abramelin.

                Do you think the Key talismans are received or
                consciously created? (the Abramelin talismans tickle
                my subconscious, so I think they're received. But
                others, like the Magic Squares of Agrippa strike me as
                'conscious creations' of human beings.)


                In modern times, we could add our own:

                3) The Talisman is a symbolic instruction guide to the
                spirits concerning the operation. I think some of
                Abramelin's talismans are like that. (especially those
                related to illusions and invisibility)


                > > I needed to know what the Key was doing any why.
                > > However, I did make a precious Mao button... ;P
                >
                > Mao or Chao?

                Meeeeeeeeeeeeeoooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
                http://www.principiadiscordia.com/49-53.html#pg53

                IMPENDING DOOM HAS ARRIVED

                And Five Days Prior to This Occasion The Apostle
                The Elder Malaclypse Shall Walk the Streets of
                Whittier Bearing a Sign for All Literates to Read
                thereof: "DOOM", as a Warning of Forthcoming Doom to
                All Men Impending. And He Shall Signal This Event by
                Seeking the Poor and Distributing to Them Precious MAO
                BUTTONS and Whittier Shall be Known as The Region of
                Thud for These Five Days.


                > During the Industrial age, *everything* became
                > ordered and clean cut. Standardization was the
                > rule.

                Ironic in a way. The very thing Discord is fighting?
                against (or playing with) is what She takes root in.
                Discordianism is intimately connected with such
                industrialism. It is specifically designed to give
                Freedom! of movement inside an industrial wasteland.


                > But the grimoires are from an Agricultural time when
                > *nothing* was standardized. Not government or
                > education, not even spelling! There was no
                > standard money, no standard weights or measurements.
                > Etc etc etc.

                I agree, but I think you could potray it better.
                Spellbooks like the Goetia are not well understood by
                us; but an Amish person would understand immediately.
                (and burn it.) Sometimes, I get that "old" feeling, on
                Halloween, or watching "Sleepy Hollow" and things that
                produce that old superstitious ambience.

                To them, it was "a book of demons", "full of infernal
                charms and evil witch's spells". To us, it's just a
                badly written book about demons, which is in desperate
                need of a grammer lesson.

                Modern books like "The Necronomicon Spellbook" serve
                the same purpose though. I've seem places that are
                rather superstitious and would take one of those
                glyphs very seriously. The inhabitants of these places
                also take me for an athiest, and try to convince me
                that "magic is real!!" More irony. ;)

                As I come from one of those superstitious places, the
                magic of the Key resonates much with my childhood era.

                [DwW]

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