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Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and spirit work)

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  • Jake Stratton-Kent
    Some notes, first, gruddamit, you can tell I never went to typing classes; the title Metatron shares with Anubis is *Youth* - its also interesting to note how
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
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      Some notes, first, gruddamit, you can tell I never went to typing
      classes; the title Metatron shares with Anubis is *Youth* - its also
      interesting to note how important this title is for intermediaries.
      Firstly, its a liminal state, not a child or an adult - Apollo is
      often depicted as an 'ephebe', the Greek term for a youth prepared for
      the 'rite of passage' between childhood and adulthood.

      The distance between the Vice-regent figure and the Trickster also
      needs to be carefully considered. Eshu is one of the very few figures
      who comes close to closing the gap.

      An underworld connection certainly relates to 'psychopomp' roles. With
      no celestial heaven in early cults its not too surprising that a 'vice
      regent' type might be a psychopomp but not a trickster. Prometheus
      never comes close to Vice-regent, he is trickster pure and simple,
      same goes for Hermes. Also the trickster is not always antinomian, but
      frequently can be, the Vice-regent never is. The 'devilish' Set is an
      example of a Trickster who - while having a 'horde' of his own -
      doesn't equate with the Vice-regent. His ferocity and cunning are not
      always employed for 'evil' though, as the mythographers among us will
      know. As Typhon-Set in the grimoires - if not before - he is
      frequently encountered in the intermediary role (there's a phrase in
      the Demotic papyri of relevance too, 'my Compeller').

      Delighted we're on the same wavelength regarding the Operation of
      Uriel, re grim of Armadel, Dee etc. Uriel's a complex figure, easily
      the most sinister of the 'big 4' , banned by a Church Council and much
      consulted in dark grimoires, he is related as much to fire, earth and
      the Underworld as he ever is to the Sun. This may be one of the
      angelic names referring to a Lucifer figure in Jewish folk magic of
      the syncretic period.

      Delighted also that we both see Hecate in the context of Jewish magic
      as much as pagan.

      Somewhat discombobulated you don't have a True Grimoire - sod Amazon,
      go straight to Scarlets! That Armadel chapter alone is critically
      important in modern grimoire studies.

      More grimoire authors (and author publishers) should 'risk' engaging
      intellectually with their audience, putting their reputation on the
      line in actual discourse, and deigning to mention the work of others -
      and massive Kudos to you for doing all of the above.

      ALWays

      Jake

      http://www.underworldapothecary.com/


      On 1 August 2013 03:10, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
      >
      >> what I am talking about here is Axiomatic, not incidental or period
      >> specific, though I've noticed that folks brush over it virtually every
      >> time I raise the matter or anything connected to it. Sure it can be
      >> expressed in a variety of ways, what doesn't work is omitting it or
      >> missing its importance altogether. It explains also why I value the GV
      >> over virtually another grimoire, its not a preference based on
      >> aesthetics but on ritual mechanics.
      >
      > I completely agree. It is one part of why I choose Abramelin myself.
      >
      > Even outside of that system, I have always practiced a tradition of establishing specific contacts with spirits on the other side, and working directly through them. (Besides my HGA, I have relationships with Iophiel and Michael, and to a lesser extent Sachiel and Samael. But even when working with them I try to start with my HGA.)
      >
      > This is opposed to the modern concept of deciding what I need and then "looking up" an entity that can bring it. If one of my established contacts can't bring it, then they can introduce me to someone who can.
      >
      >> > So with all of this: I wonder if you have anything else to share about the concept of the Vice Regent Intermediary, and/or its relationship to the Trickster Intermediary concept?
      >>
      >> frankly, there is tons of it, [...]
      >
      >> Academia is only so-so in getting to grips with the
      >> Trickster/Vice-regent figures as intermediaries. Some scholars have
      >> even tried to prove Sophia is a Trickster (because they understood the
      >> Trickster is an intermediary, but missed the Vice-regent).
      >
      > I've wrestled with it myself. Until I saw you specifically mention the "Vice-Regent type" of intermediary, I struggled with understanding my experiences of that type with the Mercurial types I had seen in other traditions (like the ATRs). Now I know I'm not the only one who recognizes two different types. :):):)
      >
      > It's also interesting that you relate the Vice-Regent type to Sol. (Later in this post, you mention Apollo in this regard as well.) The HGA has clear Solar attributes. And even Uriel - whose name means "Light of God" - could be argued to have some relationship to the Sun. All of this makes sense with the traditional view of the Sun as being able to freely move between the sky and the underworld at will.
      >
      > This also brings the Mercury/Sol confusion over Michael into focus. It's quite clear that Michael has traditionally had both associations: Angel of the Sun and General of the Hosts in one place, and an Angel of Death and Weigher of Souls in another. I am often asked by students to explain why there is a difference - and this is why.
      >
      >> I engage a good deal with this topic in the forthcoming 'Testament of
      >> Cyprian the Mage'
      >
      > I can't wait to see it!
      >
      >> So we find Michael is THE Angel, and solar because he is the Vice
      >> regent (Metatron really only reprises aspects of the solar 'demiurge'
      >> type Michael represents;note the title Youtnh is one shared by
      >> Metatron and Anubis...).
      >
      > I was not aware of this - where do we find the name Youtnh (is that spelled correctly?) in relationship to Anubis?
      >
      >> Lucifer is a trickster (esp via Promethean
      >> connections, but there is more besides) he usually delegates his
      >> intermediary function.
      >
      > I've heard of Lucifer having Mercurial connections, though I personally tend to relate him stronger to Venus. (Though I agree with you that no spirit can be nailed down to just one planet/sphere/force in any case.)
      >
      >> An intermediary god (or superior spirit etc) is *always* either a
      >> Trickster or a Vice-regent.
      >
      > We can even expand this to the Seven Archangels - all of whom are called upon in the grimoires, and all of whom could be considered Vice-Regents, even if not all specifically Solar. (The Seven who stand eternally before God.)
      >
      >> More importantly, this rule pans out in the myth and divine titles at
      >> the root of Western magic. Hecate is an 'Angel' in the syncretic
      >> period (and in the papyri we find Hermecate as combining her name with
      >> Hermes, btw).
      >
      > Ah yes - Hecate must be mentioned in this conversation! Not only is she a gate-opener in witchcraft, but you've pointed out her relationship to Solomonic magick as well.
      >
      > I wasn't aware of Hermecate. But this conversation has done much to solidify the Hermanubis concept for me.
      >
      >> She is - of course - a Vice regent figure as leader of
      >> the spirits. Another important element of Hecate's nature is her equal
      >> facility in Sky, Earth & Ocean. This is typical of 'moving between
      >> worlds' as an Intermediary.
      >
      > And as Goddess of the Crossroads, of course.
      >
      >> Apollo (oracular, and as chthonic as he is celestial - note his
      >> temporary exile from Olympus also) is also the great patron of Orphic
      >> goetia (and indisputably a syncretic forerunner of Michael in later
      >> magic).
      >
      > Ah, and there is Apollo as I mentioned above. Thanks for the example. :)
      >
      >> The Intermediary is *UTTERLY ESSENTIAL* to the functioning of both
      >> myth *and* ritual, and for the same reason. Without them there is no
      >> contact between the worlds, and thus no mythic events and no
      >> successful ritual communication can occur.
      >
      > Which is why I just don't truck with the modern model of magick that suggests merely "raising power" or "creating a thoughtform" and sending it out to do its job. Or just staring at a sigil of your magickal goal and chanting, etc, etc. You can do those things, but you first have to connect to the other side to do them.
      >
      >> more below:
      >>
      >> On 31 July 2013 09:30, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
      >> >
      >> > I'm glad you said this, Jake. For some time I've been mulling over this concept of spiritual intermediaries. The ATR traditions make use of the Mercurial trickster as intermediary. And I can see a correlation between that and our own Hermes - who is both Mercury and (traditionally) a psychopomp and guide into the underworld.
      >>
      >> regarding the ATRs there is a massive exception to that 'rule', in the
      >> person of Eshu.
      >
      > Exception? Eshu (Eleggua)is certainly Mercurial and a Trickster...
      >
      >> As a 'Marshal' of the court he comes very, very close to uniting
      >> Vice-regent and Trickster figures. This makes him an extraordinarily
      >> important and sophisticated figure, as well as underlining *again* how
      >> important modern Kimbanda is to reclaiming goetia in our time.
      >
      > So far, it seems like all of the Mercurial intermediaries we've mentioned seem to come close to Vice-Regent types a swell. (Michael, Hermes, Apollo, Hecate, etc. Even Lucifer.) Yet, it does seem that there are examples of Vice-Regents that do *not* have Trickster aspects (Uriel, the HGA).
      >
      >> Its interesting too to note that Michael has solar (vice regent) and
      >> mercurial (trickster/psychopomp) attributions.
      >
      > While Michael does have Mercury attributes, where do we seem him acting as Trickster? Unless, that is, he is the angel Jacob wrestled with - though I generally give that to Samael.
      >
      >> Possibly seeing these
      >> as separate - or two Michaels etc - rather than twin clues to his
      >> infinitely more complex nature is an error, I certainly tend to see it
      >> that way.
      >
      > Me too. There is a modern convention of adding a "last name" to angels and viewing each of them as separate entities. Thus, we have Michael Tipharethiel, Michael Soliel, Michael Kokabiel and Michael Aschiel. While I do see these as different *paths* of Michael, I still see them as all paths of the same Archangel.
      >
      >> We should always beware of over-categorising in terms of
      >> single attributions, something much of the modern revival has done way
      >> too much of.
      >
      > Agreed. What I tell my fellow Golden Dawners is that an angel or spirit has an entire Tree of Life in their Sphere of Sensation, just like we humans do. And thus any of them can act from any sphere, not just from the ones we classify them into.
      >
      >> agreed, btw the best ritual pointers to understanding Uriel from are:
      >> the 'Operation of Uriel Seraphim' (unaccountably omitted from Mather's
      >> 'Grimoire of Armadel' - a point folks are taking a while to take on
      >> board despite reading True Grimoire). Aka 'Divination by the Word of
      >> Uriel', a very closely related ritual that appears in the GV.
      >
      > Yes that drives me crazy about Armadel. I'm working on correcting that grimoire - and maybe I can get with you on putting the Uriel Seraphim operation back in there. I still haven't read your True Grimoire (Amazon keeps insisting it's out of print, though Scarlet Imprint assures me it isn't!)
      >
      > Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure there is a divination by Uriel included in one of Rankine's recent grimoiric releases (Avalonia Press) - I think the Grimoire of Arthur Gauntlet, and/or A Collection of Magical Secrets.
      >
      >> One or other of these rituals underlies the major difference between
      >> French and German Abramelins - (the skryer and the Uriel lamen etc. in
      >> the French is plainly adapted from such a 'goetic' grimoire source).
      >
      > Yeppers! I forgot to mention that talisman in my last post. Without a doubt, the French occultist who put together that version of Abramelin knew his Solomonic lore, and how to use it to make up for the shorter span of his version of the Rite.
      >
      >> and yes, Dee's work with Uriel has to be understood in this light -
      >> again I refer folks back to my True Grimoire and the chapter on the
      >> Art Armadel in particular.
      >
      > Yes. For those who are not aware of Uriel's place in the Enochian system: Dee's first contact was actually a vision of the Archangel in charge of the Universe during his lifetime: Annael (Archangel of Venus), who only appeared to tell Dee and Kelley that some really important work was about to come their way.
      >
      > But when the work actually started, Uriel was first to appear. He was the one who introduced Dee and Kelley to the other three Archangels (Michael, Gabriel and Raphael). And he remained as the men's principal angelic contact through the entire process of receiving the system - even when one of the other Archangels took charge of specific revelations and lessons.
      >
      > Later on, Madimi became an important intermediary as well - but she was secondary in relation to Uriel.
      >
      >> One point to be underlined is that some later sources miss the
      >> centrality of an Intermediary to the method. Mathers certainly seems
      >> to have missed it in his editing of the Grimoire of Armadel, which is
      >> precisely why so many people find that grimoire a bit odd. Add the
      >> Uriel operation back in and take this discussion on board, and it
      >> isn't nearly as peculiar.
      >>
      >> This insight is not to be dismissed or lightly brushed over, it needs
      >> to be taken up in order to reclaim the methodology. I sure didn't
      >> include that chapter as filler!
      >
      > I wholeheartedly agree. That Uriel operation should be the standard opening for using any of the given sigils.
      >
      >> > Anubis, in his original Egyptian form, would likely also be a Vice Regent type. But his role as psychopomp might relate him to Mercury (and thus possibly a Trickster energy). Interesting how the GD would later assign Anubis (as the Keryx) to Mercury...
      >>
      >> indeed - though there are statues and images of him from the Synthesis
      >> period where he holds a caduceus, so not too surprising. Note too that
      >> 'Hermanubis' was a term known to Mathers and co. via Tarot studies,
      >> Levi etc.
      >
      > Yes, see what I said on this in my previous post. Hermanubis makes a lot more sense to me now, as well as why "Anubis" is carrying around a Caduceus in the GD Neophyte Hall. He is, in fact, Hermanubis. The standard Anubis is the Phylax who guards the door outside the Hall/Tomb.
      >
      >> Also, Levi and others of his era also seem to have known
      >> that the GV/GG Nebiros was a thinly disguised Anubis.
      >
      > I first heard this from you - was it in Geosophia? Nebiros as a grimoiric incarnation of Cerberus, who likely descends from Anubis. Underworld gatekeepers, every one of them.
      >
      >> I emphasise this sort of thing not because I want us to be Ptolemaic
      >> period re-enactors, but because it is a pointer to important magical
      >> methodologies across the board!
      >> <slaps forehead recalling numerous occasions this has been
      >> misunderstood, past & present>
      >
      > LOL I'm going to take this discussion and turn it into a nice essay.
      >
      > LVX
      > Aaron
    • irbankei
      Hi Jake Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which we find
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Jake

        Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which we find references in the fragments of parmenides.

        The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.

        I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.

        The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.

        It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco Egyptian tradition.

        All. The best

        Ian Rees
        Sent from my BlackBerry� wireless device

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
        Sender: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 08:08:26
        To: <solomonic@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and spirit work)

        Some notes, first, gruddamit, you can tell I never went to typing
        classes; the title Metatron shares with Anubis is *Youth* - its also
        interesting to note how important this title is for intermediaries.
        Firstly, its a liminal state, not a child or an adult - Apollo is
        often depicted as an 'ephebe', the Greek term for a youth prepared for
        the 'rite of passage' between childhood and adulthood.

        The distance between the Vice-regent figure and the Trickster also
        needs to be carefully considered. Eshu is one of the very few figures
        who comes close to closing the gap.

        An underworld connection certainly relates to 'psychopomp' roles. With
        no celestial heaven in early cults its not too surprising that a 'vice
        regent' type might be a psychopomp but not a trickster. Prometheus
        never comes close to Vice-regent, he is trickster pure and simple,
        same goes for Hermes. Also the trickster is not always antinomian, but
        frequently can be, the Vice-regent never is. The 'devilish' Set is an
        example of a Trickster who - while having a 'horde' of his own -
        doesn't equate with the Vice-regent. His ferocity and cunning are not
        always employed for 'evil' though, as the mythographers among us will
        know. As Typhon-Set in the grimoires - if not before - he is
        frequently encountered in the intermediary role (there's a phrase in
        the Demotic papyri of relevance too, 'my Compeller').

        Delighted we're on the same wavelength regarding the Operation of
        Uriel, re grim of Armadel, Dee etc. Uriel's a complex figure, easily
        the most sinister of the 'big 4' , banned by a Church Council and much
        consulted in dark grimoires, he is related as much to fire, earth and
        the Underworld as he ever is to the Sun. This may be one of the
        angelic names referring to a Lucifer figure in Jewish folk magic of
        the syncretic period.

        Delighted also that we both see Hecate in the context of Jewish magic
        as much as pagan.

        Somewhat discombobulated you don't have a True Grimoire - sod Amazon,
        go straight to Scarlets! That Armadel chapter alone is critically
        important in modern grimoire studies.

        More grimoire authors (and author publishers) should 'risk' engaging
        intellectually with their audience, putting their reputation on the
        line in actual discourse, and deigning to mention the work of others -
        and massive Kudos to you for doing all of the above.

        ALWays

        Jake

        http://www.underworldapothecary.com/


        On 1 August 2013 03:10, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
        >
        >> what I am talking about here is Axiomatic, not incidental or period
        >> specific, though I've noticed that folks brush over it virtually every
        >> time I raise the matter or anything connected to it. Sure it can be
        >> expressed in a variety of ways, what doesn't work is omitting it or
        >> missing its importance altogether. It explains also why I value the GV
        >> over virtually another grimoire, its not a preference based on
        >> aesthetics but on ritual mechanics.
        >
        > I completely agree. It is one part of why I choose Abramelin myself.
        >
        > Even outside of that system, I have always practiced a tradition of establishing specific contacts with spirits on the other side, and working directly through them. (Besides my HGA, I have relationships with Iophiel and Michael, and to a lesser extent Sachiel and Samael. But even when working with them I try to start with my HGA.)
        >
        > This is opposed to the modern concept of deciding what I need and then "looking up" an entity that can bring it. If one of my established contacts can't bring it, then they can introduce me to someone who can.
        >
        >> > So with all of this: I wonder if you have anything else to share about the concept of the Vice Regent Intermediary, and/or its relationship to the Trickster Intermediary concept?
        >>
        >> frankly, there is tons of it, [...]
        >
        >> Academia is only so-so in getting to grips with the
        >> Trickster/Vice-regent figures as intermediaries. Some scholars have
        >> even tried to prove Sophia is a Trickster (because they understood the
        >> Trickster is an intermediary, but missed the Vice-regent).
        >
        > I've wrestled with it myself. Until I saw you specifically mention the "Vice-Regent type" of intermediary, I struggled with understanding my experiences of that type with the Mercurial types I had seen in other traditions (like the ATRs). Now I know I'm not the only one who recognizes two different types. :):):)
        >
        > It's also interesting that you relate the Vice-Regent type to Sol. (Later in this post, you mention Apollo in this regard as well.) The HGA has clear Solar attributes. And even Uriel - whose name means "Light of God" - could be argued to have some relationship to the Sun. All of this makes sense with the traditional view of the Sun as being able to freely move between the sky and the underworld at will.
        >
        > This also brings the Mercury/Sol confusion over Michael into focus. It's quite clear that Michael has traditionally had both associations: Angel of the Sun and General of the Hosts in one place, and an Angel of Death and Weigher of Souls in another. I am often asked by students to explain why there is a difference - and this is why.
        >
        >> I engage a good deal with this topic in the forthcoming 'Testament of
        >> Cyprian the Mage'
        >
        > I can't wait to see it!
        >
        >> So we find Michael is THE Angel, and solar because he is the Vice
        >> regent (Metatron really only reprises aspects of the solar 'demiurge'
        >> type Michael represents;note the title Youtnh is one shared by
        >> Metatron and Anubis...).
        >
        > I was not aware of this - where do we find the name Youtnh (is that spelled correctly?) in relationship to Anubis?
        >
        >> Lucifer is a trickster (esp via Promethean
        >> connections, but there is more besides) he usually delegates his
        >> intermediary function.
        >
        > I've heard of Lucifer having Mercurial connections, though I personally tend to relate him stronger to Venus. (Though I agree with you that no spirit can be nailed down to just one planet/sphere/force in any case.)
        >
        >> An intermediary god (or superior spirit etc) is *always* either a
        >> Trickster or a Vice-regent.
        >
        > We can even expand this to the Seven Archangels - all of whom are called upon in the grimoires, and all of whom could be considered Vice-Regents, even if not all specifically Solar. (The Seven who stand eternally before God.)
        >
        >> More importantly, this rule pans out in the myth and divine titles at
        >> the root of Western magic. Hecate is an 'Angel' in the syncretic
        >> period (and in the papyri we find Hermecate as combining her name with
        >> Hermes, btw).
        >
        > Ah yes - Hecate must be mentioned in this conversation! Not only is she a gate-opener in witchcraft, but you've pointed out her relationship to Solomonic magick as well.
        >
        > I wasn't aware of Hermecate. But this conversation has done much to solidify the Hermanubis concept for me.
        >
        >> She is - of course - a Vice regent figure as leader of
        >> the spirits. Another important element of Hecate's nature is her equal
        >> facility in Sky, Earth & Ocean. This is typical of 'moving between
        >> worlds' as an Intermediary.
        >
        > And as Goddess of the Crossroads, of course.
        >
        >> Apollo (oracular, and as chthonic as he is celestial - note his
        >> temporary exile from Olympus also) is also the great patron of Orphic
        >> goetia (and indisputably a syncretic forerunner of Michael in later
        >> magic).
        >
        > Ah, and there is Apollo as I mentioned above. Thanks for the example. :)
        >
        >> The Intermediary is *UTTERLY ESSENTIAL* to the functioning of both
        >> myth *and* ritual, and for the same reason. Without them there is no
        >> contact between the worlds, and thus no mythic events and no
        >> successful ritual communication can occur.
        >
        > Which is why I just don't truck with the modern model of magick that suggests merely "raising power" or "creating a thoughtform" and sending it out to do its job. Or just staring at a sigil of your magickal goal and chanting, etc, etc. You can do those things, but you first have to connect to the other side to do them.
        >
        >> more below:
        >>
        >> On 31 July 2013 09:30, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
        >> >
        >> > I'm glad you said this, Jake. For some time I've been mulling over this concept of spiritual intermediaries. The ATR traditions make use of the Mercurial trickster as intermediary. And I can see a correlation between that and our own Hermes - who is both Mercury and (traditionally) a psychopomp and guide into the underworld.
        >>
        >> regarding the ATRs there is a massive exception to that 'rule', in the
        >> person of Eshu.
        >
        > Exception? Eshu (Eleggua)is certainly Mercurial and a Trickster...
        >
        >> As a 'Marshal' of the court he comes very, very close to uniting
        >> Vice-regent and Trickster figures. This makes him an extraordinarily
        >> important and sophisticated figure, as well as underlining *again* how
        >> important modern Kimbanda is to reclaiming goetia in our time.
        >
        > So far, it seems like all of the Mercurial intermediaries we've mentioned seem to come close to Vice-Regent types a swell. (Michael, Hermes, Apollo, Hecate, etc. Even Lucifer.) Yet, it does seem that there are examples of Vice-Regents that do *not* have Trickster aspects (Uriel, the HGA).
        >
        >> Its interesting too to note that Michael has solar (vice regent) and
        >> mercurial (trickster/psychopomp) attributions.
        >
        > While Michael does have Mercury attributes, where do we seem him acting as Trickster? Unless, that is, he is the angel Jacob wrestled with - though I generally give that to Samael.
        >
        >> Possibly seeing these
        >> as separate - or two Michaels etc - rather than twin clues to his
        >> infinitely more complex nature is an error, I certainly tend to see it
        >> that way.
        >
        > Me too. There is a modern convention of adding a "last name" to angels and viewing each of them as separate entities. Thus, we have Michael Tipharethiel, Michael Soliel, Michael Kokabiel and Michael Aschiel. While I do see these as different *paths* of Michael, I still see them as all paths of the same Archangel.
        >
        >> We should always beware of over-categorising in terms of
        >> single attributions, something much of the modern revival has done way
        >> too much of.
        >
        > Agreed. What I tell my fellow Golden Dawners is that an angel or spirit has an entire Tree of Life in their Sphere of Sensation, just like we humans do. And thus any of them can act from any sphere, not just from the ones we classify them into.
        >
        >> agreed, btw the best ritual pointers to understanding Uriel from are:
        >> the 'Operation of Uriel Seraphim' (unaccountably omitted from Mather's
        >> 'Grimoire of Armadel' - a point folks are taking a while to take on
        >> board despite reading True Grimoire). Aka 'Divination by the Word of
        >> Uriel', a very closely related ritual that appears in the GV.
        >
        > Yes that drives me crazy about Armadel. I'm working on correcting that grimoire - and maybe I can get with you on putting the Uriel Seraphim operation back in there. I still haven't read your True Grimoire (Amazon keeps insisting it's out of print, though Scarlet Imprint assures me it isn't!)
        >
        > Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure there is a divination by Uriel included in one of Rankine's recent grimoiric releases (Avalonia Press) - I think the Grimoire of Arthur Gauntlet, and/or A Collection of Magical Secrets.
        >
        >> One or other of these rituals underlies the major difference between
        >> French and German Abramelins - (the skryer and the Uriel lamen etc. in
        >> the French is plainly adapted from such a 'goetic' grimoire source).
        >
        > Yeppers! I forgot to mention that talisman in my last post. Without a doubt, the French occultist who put together that version of Abramelin knew his Solomonic lore, and how to use it to make up for the shorter span of his version of the Rite.
        >
        >> and yes, Dee's work with Uriel has to be understood in this light -
        >> again I refer folks back to my True Grimoire and the chapter on the
        >> Art Armadel in particular.
        >
        > Yes. For those who are not aware of Uriel's place in the Enochian system: Dee's first contact was actually a vision of the Archangel in charge of the Universe during his lifetime: Annael (Archangel of Venus), who only appeared to tell Dee and Kelley that some really important work was about to come their way.
        >
        > But when the work actually started, Uriel was first to appear. He was the one who introduced Dee and Kelley to the other three Archangels (Michael, Gabriel and Raphael). And he remained as the men's principal angelic contact through the entire process of receiving the system - even when one of the other Archangels took charge of specific revelations and lessons.
        >
        > Later on, Madimi became an important intermediary as well - but she was secondary in relation to Uriel.
        >
        >> One point to be underlined is that some later sources miss the
        >> centrality of an Intermediary to the method. Mathers certainly seems
        >> to have missed it in his editing of the Grimoire of Armadel, which is
        >> precisely why so many people find that grimoire a bit odd. Add the
        >> Uriel operation back in and take this discussion on board, and it
        >> isn't nearly as peculiar.
        >>
        >> This insight is not to be dismissed or lightly brushed over, it needs
        >> to be taken up in order to reclaim the methodology. I sure didn't
        >> include that chapter as filler!
        >
        > I wholeheartedly agree. That Uriel operation should be the standard opening for using any of the given sigils.
        >
        >> > Anubis, in his original Egyptian form, would likely also be a Vice Regent type. But his role as psychopomp might relate him to Mercury (and thus possibly a Trickster energy). Interesting how the GD would later assign Anubis (as the Keryx) to Mercury...
        >>
        >> indeed - though there are statues and images of him from the Synthesis
        >> period where he holds a caduceus, so not too surprising. Note too that
        >> 'Hermanubis' was a term known to Mathers and co. via Tarot studies,
        >> Levi etc.
        >
        > Yes, see what I said on this in my previous post. Hermanubis makes a lot more sense to me now, as well as why "Anubis" is carrying around a Caduceus in the GD Neophyte Hall. He is, in fact, Hermanubis. The standard Anubis is the Phylax who guards the door outside the Hall/Tomb.
        >
        >> Also, Levi and others of his era also seem to have known
        >> that the GV/GG Nebiros was a thinly disguised Anubis.
        >
        > I first heard this from you - was it in Geosophia? Nebiros as a grimoiric incarnation of Cerberus, who likely descends from Anubis. Underworld gatekeepers, every one of them.
        >
        >> I emphasise this sort of thing not because I want us to be Ptolemaic
        >> period re-enactors, but because it is a pointer to important magical
        >> methodologies across the board!
        >> <slaps forehead recalling numerous occasions this has been
        >> misunderstood, past & present>
        >
        > LOL I'm going to take this discussion and turn it into a nice essay.
        >
        > LVX
        > Aaron



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jake Stratton-Kent
        ... Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros. ... totally, Jewish receptivity to
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          On 1 August 2013 10:23, <bankei@...> wrote:
          > Hi Jake
          > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which we find references in the fragments of parmenides.

          Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
          operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.

          > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.

          totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
          around Vice-regent angels.

          Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
          someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?

          ALWays

          Jake


          > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
          >
          > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
          >
          > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco Egyptian tradition.
          >
          >
          >
          > All. The best

          Jake

          http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
        • joe smuckers
          Can anyone recommend a good incense for use in performing Moon rituals? ________________________________ From: Jake Stratton-Kent
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
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            Can anyone recommend a good incense for use in performing Moon rituals?


            ________________________________
            From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
            To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:49 AM
            Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and spirit work)

             

            On 1 August 2013 10:23, <bankei@...> wrote:
            > Hi Jake
            > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which we find references in the fragments of parmenides.

            Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
            operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.

            > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.

            totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
            around Vice-regent angels.

            Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
            someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?

            ALWays

            Jake

            > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
            >
            > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
            >
            > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco Egyptian tradition.
            >
            >
            >
            > All. The best

            Jake

            http://www.underworldapothecary.com/



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • tolderoll
            I ve gotten about half of my Rouge edition Scarlet Imprint s through Amazon, but you have to go through the MagusBooks dealer:
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
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              I've gotten about half of my Rouge edition Scarlet Imprint's through Amazon, but you have to go through the MagusBooks dealer:
              http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0956720323/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1375368444&sr=8-1&keywords=true+grimoire&condition=new

              Scarlet Imprint's ebooks are also very high quality.

              --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "AaronL" <kheph777@...> wrote:

              > Yes that drives me crazy about Armadel. I'm working on correcting that grimoire - and maybe I can get with you on putting the Uriel Seraphim operation back in there. I still haven't read your True Grimoire (Amazon keeps insisting it's out of print, though Scarlet Imprint assures me it isn't!)
              >
            • irbankei
              That s interesting- in which of Goodwin s works can this be found? Yes the Leyden papyrus is a definite possibility; I have a vague feeling that Butler
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
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                That's interesting- in which of Goodwin's works can this be found?

                Yes the Leyden papyrus is a definite possibility; I have a vague feeling that Butler recommends it in one of his books.

                All the best

                Ian
                Sent from my BlackBerry� wireless device

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
                Sender: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 12:49:38
                To: <solomonic@yahoogroups.com>
                Reply-To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and spirit work)

                On 1 August 2013 10:23, <bankei@...> wrote:
                > Hi Jake
                > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which we find references in the fragments of parmenides.

                Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
                operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.

                > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.

                totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
                around Vice-regent angels.

                Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
                someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?

                ALWays

                Jake


                > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
                >
                > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
                >
                > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco Egyptian tradition.
                >
                >
                >
                > All. The best

                Jake

                http://www.underworldapothecary.com/



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • AaronL
                Here are my recipes for planetary suffumigations: http://aaronleitch.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/planetary-suffumigations-incenses/ LVX Aaron
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
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                  Here are my recipes for planetary suffumigations:

                  http://aaronleitch.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/planetary-suffumigations-incenses/

                  LVX
                  Aaron

                  --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, joe smuckers <quadrivalent_anion@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Can anyone recommend a good incense for use in performing Moon rituals?
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
                  > To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:49 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and spirit work)
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > On 1 August 2013 10:23, <bankei@...> wrote:
                  > > Hi Jake
                  > > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which we find references in the fragments of parmenides.
                  >
                  > Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
                  > operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.
                  >
                  > > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.
                  >
                  > totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
                  > around Vice-regent angels.
                  >
                  > Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
                  > someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?
                  >
                  > ALWays
                  >
                  > Jake
                  >
                  > > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
                  > >
                  > > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
                  > >
                  > > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco Egyptian tradition.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > All. The best
                  >
                  > Jake
                  >
                  > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Sara
                  I like sandalwood, amber, vanilla, mugwort, and sweet woodruff. On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:38 AM, joe smuckers ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I like sandalwood, amber, vanilla, mugwort, and sweet woodruff.


                    On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:38 AM, joe smuckers
                    <quadrivalent_anion@...>wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Can anyone recommend a good incense for use in performing Moon rituals?
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
                    > To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:49 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and
                    > spirit work)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 1 August 2013 10:23, <bankei@...> wrote:
                    > > Hi Jake
                    > > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the
                    > kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which
                    > we find references in the fragments of parmenides.
                    >
                    > Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
                    > operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.
                    >
                    > > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a
                    > primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.
                    >
                    > totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
                    > around Vice-regent angels.
                    >
                    > Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
                    > someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?
                    >
                    > ALWays
                    >
                    > Jake
                    >
                    > > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if
                    > my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of
                    > conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his
                    > principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days
                    > and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest
                    > Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so
                    > working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
                    > >
                    > > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was
                    > very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by
                    > Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
                    > >
                    > > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which
                    > DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco
                    > Egyptian tradition.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > All. The best
                    >
                    > Jake
                    >
                    > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jake Stratton-Kent
                    ... oops, Charles Wycliffe Goodwin 1852. The source of the Bornless/Headless ritual in the GD period, it was
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 1 August 2013 15:51, <bankei@...> wrote:
                      > That's interesting- in which of Goodwin's works can this be found?

                      oops, <Fragment of a Graeco-Egyptian work upon Magic> Charles Wycliffe
                      Goodwin 1852.
                      The source of the Bornless/Headless ritual in the GD period, it was
                      pretty much all the revival had of the papyri, until the Leyden
                      Papyrus published in 1904 & from there a very long wait for the
                      remainder. Leyden would be a credible source for Anubis intermediary
                      roles, it certainly put me on a few trails ;)

                      ALWays

                      Jake

                      >
                      >
                      > Yes the Leyden papyrus is a definite possibility; I have a vague feeling that Butler recommends it in one of his books.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > All the best
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ian
                      >
                      > Sent from my BlackBerryŽ wireless device
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      >
                      > From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
                      >
                      > Sender: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 12:49:38
                      >
                      > To: <solomonic@yahoogroups.com>
                      >
                      > Reply-To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and spirit work)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On 1 August 2013 10:23, <bankei@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> Hi Jake
                      >
                      >> Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which we find references in the fragments of parmenides.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
                      >
                      > operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
                      >
                      > around Vice-regent angels.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
                      >
                      > someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ALWays
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Jake
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco Egyptian tradition.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> All. The best
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Jake
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > "Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires" is now available! Let me know what you think.
                      > http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexsecrets.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Gerardo Braham
                      Greetings to the group. Long time lurker, first post. So please, bear with me. Thanks to the great translation work that has been done recently to different
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
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                        Greetings to the group.

                        Long time lurker, first post. So please, bear with me.

                        Thanks to
                        the great translation work that has been done recently to different versions of the same grimoire, it is
                        now possible to trace “families” or at least the “influences” from older grimoires
                        to younger ones. It is obvious that we can trace as back as the GMP, but without going
                        so far back:

                        Can we then
                        suppose that the modifications that were added from grimoire to grimoire
                        derived from personal gnosis of the practicant in which they modified the root
                        technology with their experiences?

                        And then,
                        if that is the case. Can we really dismiss any grimoire as “fake”? Has anyone
                        on the group tried using one in specific and found it so full of errors to be
                        impossible to use?

                        Thank you for your comments.
                        Gerardo

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Aaron H
                        Opopanax and any fragrant leaves really as fragrant leaves are sacred the moon. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
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                          Opopanax and any fragrant leaves really as fragrant leaves are sacred the moon.

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Aug 1, 2013, at 5:00 PM, "Sara" <academy23@...> wrote:

                          > I like sandalwood, amber, vanilla, mugwort, and sweet woodruff.
                          >
                          > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:38 AM, joe smuckers
                          > <quadrivalent_anion@...>wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Can anyone recommend a good incense for use in performing Moon rituals?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > From: Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...>
                          > > To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:49 AM
                          > > Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and
                          > > spirit work)
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On 1 August 2013 10:23, <bankei@...> wrote:
                          > > > Hi Jake
                          > > > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the
                          > > kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which
                          > > we find references in the fragments of parmenides.
                          > >
                          > > Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
                          > > operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.
                          > >
                          > > > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a
                          > > primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.
                          > >
                          > > totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
                          > > around Vice-regent angels.
                          > >
                          > > Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
                          > > someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?
                          > >
                          > > ALWays
                          > >
                          > > Jake
                          > >
                          > > > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if
                          > > my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of
                          > > conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his
                          > > principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days
                          > > and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest
                          > > Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so
                          > > working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
                          > > >
                          > > > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was
                          > > very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by
                          > > Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
                          > > >
                          > > > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which
                          > > DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco
                          > > Egyptian tradition.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > All. The best
                          > >
                          > > Jake
                          > >
                          > > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Hyndla Kensdottir
                          Camphor is listed in many of the pre-1700s sources.  It works for me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camphor ________________________________ From: Aaron H
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Camphor is listed in many of the pre-1700s sources.  It works for me.
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camphor


                            ________________________________
                            From: Aaron H <enigmius.ah@...>
                            To: "solomonic@yahoogroups.com" <solomonic@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:35 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Moon Incense

                             

                            Opopanax and any fragrant leaves really as fragrant leaves are sacred the moon.

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Aug 1, 2013, at 5:00 PM, "Sara" <mailto:academy23%40gmail.com> wrote:

                            > I like sandalwood, amber, vanilla, mugwort, and sweet woodruff.
                            >
                            > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:38 AM, joe smuckers
                            > <mailto:quadrivalent_anion%40yahoo.com>wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Can anyone recommend a good incense for use in performing Moon rituals?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: Jake Stratton-Kent <mailto:jakestrattonkent%40googlemail.com>
                            > > To: mailto:solomonic%40yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:49 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and
                            > > spirit work)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On 1 August 2013 10:23, <mailto:bankei%40btinternet.com> wrote:
                            > > > Hi Jake
                            > > > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the
                            > > kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which
                            > > we find references in the fragments of parmenides.
                            > >
                            > > Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
                            > > operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.
                            > >
                            > > > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a
                            > > primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.
                            > >
                            > > totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
                            > > around Vice-regent angels.
                            > >
                            > > Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
                            > > someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?
                            > >
                            > > ALWays
                            > >
                            > > Jake
                            > >
                            > > > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if
                            > > my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of
                            > > conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his
                            > > principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days
                            > > and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest
                            > > Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so
                            > > working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
                            > > >
                            > > > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was
                            > > very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by
                            > > Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
                            > > >
                            > > > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which
                            > > DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco
                            > > Egyptian tradition.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > All. The best
                            > >
                            > > Jake
                            > >
                            > > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • AaronL
                            ... In some cases, yes. For example, the German Abramelin text was picked up by some unknown French occultist, who decided to shorten the length of the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 1, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Gerardo Braham <gerardo_braham@...> wrote:

                              > Can we then
                              > suppose that the modifications that were added from grimoire to grimoire
                              > derived from personal gnosis of the practicant in which they modified the root
                              > technology with their experiences?

                              In some cases, yes. For example, the German Abramelin text was picked up by some unknown French occultist, who decided to shorten the length of the preparations from 18 months to six. Yet, he was apparently an accomplished Solomonic mage, because he also added several things from his own practice to make up for the shorter length.

                              And many grimoires are collections made by practicing occultists gathering everything useful they could find. So conjurations and seals and other elements from one grimoire were often adopted into entirely different grimoires. But the younger grimoires created in that way are not automatically wrong.

                              But there are also cases where a text is simply copied over and over again by people who aren't actually using them, and things become corrupted or lost along the way. And perhaps even more cases where foreign words are transliterated by people who don't know what they are looking at, and thus make uneducated mistakes.

                              > And then,
                              > if that is the case. Can we really dismiss any grimoire as “fake”?

                              If a grimoire is created just to make money, by someone who is not interested in actually using it, then yes that grimoire can be considered a fake. That's not to say a real occultist couldn't come along after the fact and *make* it useable, or draw useful elements from it. But that doesn't make the grimoire itself authentic. A real grimoire should be a record of magick being used within a given culture.

                              > Has anyone
                              > on the group tried using one in specific and found it so full of errors to be
                              > impossible to use?

                              Yes - the Armadel. I don't consider it a fake grimoire - but it is one full of errors and omissions that need fixing to make it useable. I've been working on it from that standpoint, in fact.

                              LVX
                              Aaron
                            • Bryan Garner
                              Parts included in my book Gateways :)  The Perfume of Monday/Gabriel or The Moon   BoM: Euphorbe, Baellium, Sal Amomonian, Roots of Helibore, powder of a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 2, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Parts included in my book Gateways :) 
                                The Perfume of Monday/Gabriel or The Moon

                                 
                                BoM:
                                Euphorbe, Baellium, Sal Amomonian, Roots of Helibore, powder of a loadstone and
                                a little sulphur.
                                 
                                Heptameron:
                                Aloes (Lignum Aloes)
                                 
                                KOS: “A white poppy seed, the most exquisite incense and a
                                small amount of camphor.”
                                 
                                Agrippa: “Myrtle leaf, Clary sage, Davana, geranium,
                                Wormwood, Eucalyptus, Rosemary.”
                                 



                                ________________________________
                                From: Hyndla Kensdottir <hyndla53704@...>
                                To: "solomonic@yahoogroups.com" <solomonic@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 7:16 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Moon Incense



                                 
                                Camphor is listed in many of the pre-1700s sources.  It works for me.
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camphor


                                ________________________________
                                From: Aaron H <enigmius.ah@...>
                                To: "solomonic@yahoogroups.com" <solomonic@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:35 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Moon Incense

                                 

                                Opopanax and any fragrant leaves really as fragrant leaves are sacred the moon.

                                Sent from my iPhone

                                On Aug 1, 2013, at 5:00 PM, "Sara" <mailto:academy23%40gmail.com> wrote:

                                > I like sandalwood, amber, vanilla, mugwort, and sweet woodruff.
                                >
                                > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:38 AM, joe smuckers
                                > <mailto:quadrivalent_anion%40yahoo.com>wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Can anyone recommend a good incense for use in performing Moon rituals?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: Jake Stratton-Kent <mailto:jakestrattonkent%40googlemail.com>
                                > > To: mailto:solomonic%40yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 6:49 AM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Sprit Intermediaries (was: Orders, roots and
                                > > spirit work)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On 1 August 2013 10:23, <mailto:bankei%40btinternet.com> wrote:
                                > > > Hi Jake
                                > > > Is this idea of the intermediary linked to the archaic idea of the
                                > > kouros- the young man who is given to the Underworld Goddess and to which
                                > > we find references in the fragments of parmenides.
                                > >
                                > > Goodwin compares the first figure seen in a colonial period mendel
                                > > operation - ie, an intermediary - to the kouros.
                                > >
                                > > > The Christ has often seemed to me a kouros figure and is of course a
                                > > primary vice regent figure and psychopomp.
                                > >
                                > > totally, Jewish receptivity to Jesus was 'prepared' by previous lore
                                > > around Vice-regent angels.
                                > >
                                > > Regarding Butler and his peer group's interest in Anubis, could
                                > > someone in the chain had seen the Leyden Papyrus?
                                > >
                                > > ALWays
                                > >
                                > > Jake
                                > >
                                > > > I have been thinking about Ernest Butler and Anubis a little more and if
                                > > my memory of conversations 35 years ago can be relied(these are a couple of
                                > > conversations with Ernest but many more with Tom Oloman one of his
                                > > principal students) his contact with Anubis was pre his Dion Fortune days
                                > > and came from his link with the theosophist and liberal catholic priest
                                > > Robert King. He was an exorcist and had connections with spiritualism so
                                > > working with the dead and spirits was not unknown to him.
                                > > >
                                > > > The work that he initiated was of course deeply linked with DF as he was
                                > > very involved in all that but he described his later work as initiated by
                                > > Anubis who had returned to work with him after an absence of many years.
                                > > >
                                > > > It seemed to me that it represented a different thread from that which
                                > > DF was presenting and one that was related to the Gnostic Christ and Graeco
                                > > Egyptian tradition.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > All. The best
                                > >
                                > > Jake
                                > >
                                > > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >

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