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Fw: goetia roots and orders

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  • Ian Rees
    This post should have preceded the other but for some reason didn’t come through From: Ian Rees Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:31 PM To: bankei@internet.com
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 29 10:59 PM
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      This post should have preceded the other but for some reason didn’t come through



      From: Ian Rees
      Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:31 PM
      To: bankei@...
      Subject: goetia roots and orders

      Hi

      It seems to me that if we consider the roots of Western Tradition and go back to Egypt, Homer and people like Parmenides and Empedocles and then forward to traditions like PGM the Hermetica and some of the Gnostic texts we can see a continuum of praxis which is both mystical and practical; innovative and rooted in a ground of tradition.

      Its roots do seem to me to be in what we could called shamanism and spirit work and how we pick this up and work with it today is an important question.

      The problem for me with the secret orders approach is that it separates those practitioners off from the wider tradition often by creating secret histories and secret chiefs who are the custodians of those mysteries.

      This then does place people in a difficult position when trying to place themselves and their work in cultural context:- people get obsessed by lineage presumably out of insecurity when there is in fact a clear and powerful lineage behind the development of western magic albeit not one owned by somebody's family or private group.


      Having a sense of that larger history enables many things, I think, certainly cross cultural dialogue is easier but also it can bring a richness of understanding. If for example we look at A O Spare as a spirit worker coming our of the goetic tradition we can much more consider how innovative and powerful his work is. He has created a method of deriving spirit sigils; he shows us how to work with death and the manifestation of spirits and ancestors through the flesh with a minimum of external apparatus.

      My original training came from Ernest Butler who was an interesting man and one of the things I really like about him is that he insisted of calling himself a magician-there is something here about the centrality of magic and its lineage that is communally culturally owned. I don't deny at all that small groups have a powerful palce in the work ; I am not at all sure about orders esoteric grades etc.

      best wishes

      Ian Rees

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jake Stratton-Kent
      ... yep, it came thru separately. outstanding post though. ... indeed, for those of us with time for practice and the aptitude for research and development, it
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 30 12:40 AM
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        On 30 July 2013 06:59, Ian Rees <bankei@...> wrote:
        > This post should have preceded the other but for some reason didn’t come through

        yep, it came thru separately. outstanding post though.

        > It seems to me that if we consider the roots of Western Tradition and go back to Egypt, Homer and people like Parmenides and Empedocles and then forward to traditions like PGM the Hermetica and some of the Gnostic texts we can see a continuum of praxis which is both mystical and practical; innovative and rooted in a ground of tradition.
        >
        > Its roots do seem to me to be in what we could called shamanism and spirit work and how we pick this up and work with it today is an important question.

        indeed, for those of us with time for practice and the aptitude for
        research and development, it is a critical area, important to the
        community and its understanding of itself, its roots and the nature of
        affinities with other cultures etc etc

        > The problem for me with the secret orders approach is that it separates those practitioners off from the wider tradition often by creating secret histories and secret chiefs who are the custodians of those mysteries.

        Exactly!

        > This then does place people in a difficult position when trying to place themselves and their work in cultural context:- people get obsessed by lineage presumably out of insecurity when there is in fact a clear and powerful lineage behind the development of western magic albeit not one owned by somebody's family or private group.

        Hear, hear - this whole post is astonishingly succinct and to the point.
        Astonishing for this maleducated one anyway :D


        >
        > Having a sense of that larger history enables many things, I think, certainly cross cultural dialogue is easier but also it can bring a richness of understanding. If for example we look at A O Spare as a spirit worker coming our of the goetic tradition we can much more consider how innovative and powerful his work is. He has created a method of deriving spirit sigils; he shows us how to work with death and the manifestation of spirits and ancestors through the flesh with a minimum of external apparatus.

        agreed, Spare is about the only one from the era who had a clue about
        goetia; eclipsing Mathers/Waite/Crowley and the rest single handed.


        > My original training came from Ernest Butler who was an interesting man and one of the things I really like about him is that he insisted of calling himself a magician-there is something here about the centrality of magic and its lineage that is communally culturally owned.

        agreed, as a goetic magician I have a heritage and a tradition in
        which I am not automatically an intrusive tourist; it enables me to
        compare notes meaningfully with initiates from other cultures, in a
        way under-informed Revivalist magic does not and cannot.

        > I don't deny at all that small groups have a powerful place in the work ; I am not at all sure about orders esoteric grades etc.

        Agreed on both points.

        Also, contrary to the impression some 'pro order' posts in this
        discussion are straining after, my antipathy to Masonic structure is
        not because I was frightened as a child by a man in an apron! Like
        there could be no other possible reason LOL

        ALWays

        Jake

        http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
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