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intimate angels?

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  • Ray Warren
    I thought that I would bring up a very sensitive topic that I am struggling with - and I would value sincere and sensible feedback. I am a married father of
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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      I thought that I would bring up a very sensitive topic that I am struggling with - and I would value sincere and sensible feedback.
      I am a married father of four who is aged in his fifties.
      I am also a theology student and a school teacher.
      Two years ago I was studying the Old Testament and noticed how Solomon and David both had many wives.
      This made my very curious and also quite envious.
      Because at that time my marriage was lacking intimacy, and so out of desperation I prayed to God for a concubine or a second wife.
      I didn't think much of it, but about two weeks later a spiritual entity connected with me in an intimate way.
      This has conintued regularly for the last two years.
      It honestly feels like God has answered my prayer.
      I did read somewhere that monks experiences similar types of connections with angels.
      Has this sort of phenomenon ever been reported before?
      Do you think that the biblical descriptions of Solomon and David having many wives may have been alluding to spiritual or angelic wives and concubines?
      Again, thanks for any sincere and sensible feedback.
    • AaronL
      Greetings! Ok, first to answer your question about the prophets and their multiple wives: no, that was not an allusion to them having spiritual wives. They
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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        Greetings!

        Ok, first to answer your question about the prophets and their multiple wives: no, that was not an allusion to them having spiritual wives. They in fact had multiple physical wives and concubines. It is still practiced, in various ways and to various degrees, in many cultures around the world.

        As for your other question:

        Are you kidding?? Angels are all *about* the sex, man! ;)

        Occult and religious lore is chock-full of spiritual beings mating with humans. Stories of Succubi and Fairies producing offspring with human partners abound - including Lilith (who, in the form of the Queen of Sheba, is said to have indeed slept with Solomon). Some Jewish funerary rites are intended to banish all the deceased "demon children" who might otherwise appear at the funeral to demand their inheritance.

        Pagan Gods - who are basically the same species of being as Angels - seem to have taken mortal mates on a regular basis - hence the existence of Demigods (half-human, half god) like Hercules and Perseus.

        Also note the "Sons of God" described in Genesis, who descended to Earth and traded the secrets of heaven in exchange for sexual favors. This is an extension of the above Pagan concept - as the Bible offers this as the explanation for superhuman heroes and the "Nephilim" or giants. God supposedly flooded the world to get rid of them. (Though it wasn't entirely successful, as Noah was rumored to be one of these offspring - effectively making *all* of us part-Angel today.)

        Biblical legend also suggests that Eve mated with Satan to give birth to Cain.

        And don't forget Dee and Kelley's (in)famous wife-swapping episode, which they undertook at the direction of their angelic contacts. (Though they didn't mate with the Angels themselves, it was still the Angels who showed an interest in human sexual activity.)

        Shamanic vocations often involve the shaman obtaining a "spiritual spouse" - literally marrying his or her Patron Deity to establish a life-ling relationship.

        An example of this is found in the Book of Abramelin - my own preferred grimoire - which promises "Knowledge" of one's Holy Guardian Angel. This is an archaic term for "having intimacy with." (Such as the Biblical term "He 'knew' his wife.")

        My own Guardian Angel has most certainly been my spiritual wife - and one of my earlier and most intense experiences with her was an extremely sexually charged encounter. Plus, once she was bound to me physically, she spent some months ravenously seeking out sexual and other physically pleasurable experiences. (It seemed to be part of her adjusting to suddenly having access to physical sensation.)

        On that same note, there are many religio-magickal operations in which a divine being is called into the body of a human host in order to perform a sexual act with either a Priest or Priestess alone, or with one who has also drawn down a divine being. Such as the Wiccan Great Rite - where the High Priest and High Priestess become vessels for the God and Goddess to physically mate.

        Plus there are several grimoiric spells intended to evoke beautiful spirits for the express purpose of having sex with them.

        The examples could go on and on - this is a theme that permeates Western religion, mysticism and occultism. I have a feeling Jake will also respond to this, with many examples of magickal practices and operations that involve sexual contact with spiritual beings.

        LVX
        Aaron


        --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Warren" <succseeder@...> wrote:
        >
        > I thought that I would bring up a very sensitive topic that I am struggling with - and I would value sincere and sensible feedback.
        > I am a married father of four who is aged in his fifties.
        > I am also a theology student and a school teacher.
        > Two years ago I was studying the Old Testament and noticed how Solomon and David both had many wives.
        > This made my very curious and also quite envious.
        > Because at that time my marriage was lacking intimacy, and so out of desperation I prayed to God for a concubine or a second wife.
        > I didn't think much of it, but about two weeks later a spiritual entity connected with me in an intimate way.
        > This has conintued regularly for the last two years.
        > It honestly feels like God has answered my prayer.
        > I did read somewhere that monks experiences similar types of connections with angels.
        > Has this sort of phenomenon ever been reported before?
        > Do you think that the biblical descriptions of Solomon and David having many wives may have been alluding to spiritual or angelic wives and concubines?
        > Again, thanks for any sincere and sensible feedback.
        >
      • AaronL
        Metatron: Nothing is funnier than the faces you humans make mid-coitus. Brittany: So sex is a joke in heaven? Metatron: From what I understand it s mostly a
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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          Metatron: Nothing is funnier than the faces you humans make mid-coitus.

          Brittany: So sex is a joke in heaven?

          Metatron: From what I understand it's mostly a joke down here too.

          - Dogma.

          --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "AaronL" <kheph777@...> wrote:
          >
          > Greetings!
          >
          > Ok, first to answer your question about the prophets and their multiple wives: no, that was not an allusion to them having spiritual wives. They in fact had multiple physical wives and concubines. It is still practiced, in various ways and to various degrees, in many cultures around the world.
          >
          > As for your other question:
          >
          > Are you kidding?? Angels are all *about* the sex, man! ;)
          >
          > Occult and religious lore is chock-full of spiritual beings mating with humans. Stories of Succubi and Fairies producing offspring with human partners abound - including Lilith (who, in the form of the Queen of Sheba, is said to have indeed slept with Solomon). Some Jewish funerary rites are intended to banish all the deceased "demon children" who might otherwise appear at the funeral to demand their inheritance.
          >
          > Pagan Gods - who are basically the same species of being as Angels - seem to have taken mortal mates on a regular basis - hence the existence of Demigods (half-human, half god) like Hercules and Perseus.
          >
          > Also note the "Sons of God" described in Genesis, who descended to Earth and traded the secrets of heaven in exchange for sexual favors. This is an extension of the above Pagan concept - as the Bible offers this as the explanation for superhuman heroes and the "Nephilim" or giants. God supposedly flooded the world to get rid of them. (Though it wasn't entirely successful, as Noah was rumored to be one of these offspring - effectively making *all* of us part-Angel today.)
          >
          > Biblical legend also suggests that Eve mated with Satan to give birth to Cain.
          >
          > And don't forget Dee and Kelley's (in)famous wife-swapping episode, which they undertook at the direction of their angelic contacts. (Though they didn't mate with the Angels themselves, it was still the Angels who showed an interest in human sexual activity.)
          >
          > Shamanic vocations often involve the shaman obtaining a "spiritual spouse" - literally marrying his or her Patron Deity to establish a life-ling relationship.
          >
          > An example of this is found in the Book of Abramelin - my own preferred grimoire - which promises "Knowledge" of one's Holy Guardian Angel. This is an archaic term for "having intimacy with." (Such as the Biblical term "He 'knew' his wife.")
          >
          > My own Guardian Angel has most certainly been my spiritual wife - and one of my earlier and most intense experiences with her was an extremely sexually charged encounter. Plus, once she was bound to me physically, she spent some months ravenously seeking out sexual and other physically pleasurable experiences. (It seemed to be part of her adjusting to suddenly having access to physical sensation.)
          >
          > On that same note, there are many religio-magickal operations in which a divine being is called into the body of a human host in order to perform a sexual act with either a Priest or Priestess alone, or with one who has also drawn down a divine being. Such as the Wiccan Great Rite - where the High Priest and High Priestess become vessels for the God and Goddess to physically mate.
          >
          > Plus there are several grimoiric spells intended to evoke beautiful spirits for the express purpose of having sex with them.
          >
          > The examples could go on and on - this is a theme that permeates Western religion, mysticism and occultism. I have a feeling Jake will also respond to this, with many examples of magickal practices and operations that involve sexual contact with spiritual beings.
          >
          > LVX
          > Aaron
          >
          >
          > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Warren" <succseeder@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I thought that I would bring up a very sensitive topic that I am struggling with - and I would value sincere and sensible feedback.
          > > I am a married father of four who is aged in his fifties.
          > > I am also a theology student and a school teacher.
          > > Two years ago I was studying the Old Testament and noticed how Solomon and David both had many wives.
          > > This made my very curious and also quite envious.
          > > Because at that time my marriage was lacking intimacy, and so out of desperation I prayed to God for a concubine or a second wife.
          > > I didn't think much of it, but about two weeks later a spiritual entity connected with me in an intimate way.
          > > This has conintued regularly for the last two years.
          > > It honestly feels like God has answered my prayer.
          > > I did read somewhere that monks experiences similar types of connections with angels.
          > > Has this sort of phenomenon ever been reported before?
          > > Do you think that the biblical descriptions of Solomon and David having many wives may have been alluding to spiritual or angelic wives and concubines?
          > > Again, thanks for any sincere and sensible feedback.
          > >
          >
        • Jake Stratton-Kent
          happy to oblige :) ... well an obvious road sign is the Comte de Gabalis: http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cdg/ big influence on some published and manuscript
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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            happy to oblige :)

            On 15 July 2013 13:20, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
            > Greetings!
            >
            > The examples could go on and on - this is a theme that permeates Western religion, mysticism and occultism. I have a feeling Jake will also respond to this, with many examples of magickal practices and operations that involve sexual contact with spiritual beings.

            well an obvious road sign is the Comte de Gabalis:

            http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cdg/

            big influence on some published and manuscript grimoires.

            Also the close relations of Lamiae (such as Lilith/Sheeba) and the
            Sibyl or sibyls is central to our magical traditions. Consider too the
            narrow line between 'angels' and 'demons'.

            From there to the Testament of Solomon, and gendered spirits at the
            root of Solomonic magic, despite later appearances/assumptions, places
            the theme pretty centrally.

            Jake

            http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
          • Nita Hickok
            Hello Ray I think you should look up incubus and succubus in the Bible since you are a theology student. Nita ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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              Hello Ray
              I think you should look up incubus and succubus in the Bible since you
              are a theology student.
              Nita
              On 07/15/13 3:43 AM, Ray Warren wrote:
              >
              > I thought that I would bring up a very sensitive topic that I am
              > struggling with - and I would value sincere and sensible feedback.
              > I am a married father of four who is aged in his fifties.
              > I am also a theology student and a school teacher.
              > Two years ago I was studying the Old Testament and noticed how Solomon
              > and David both had many wives.
              > This made my very curious and also quite envious.
              > Because at that time my marriage was lacking intimacy, and so out of
              > desperation I prayed to God for a concubine or a second wife.
              > I didn't think much of it, but about two weeks later a spiritual
              > entity connected with me in an intimate way.
              > This has conintued regularly for the last two years.
              > It honestly feels like God has answered my prayer.
              > I did read somewhere that monks experiences similar types of
              > connections with angels.
              > Has this sort of phenomenon ever been reported before?
              > Do you think that the biblical descriptions of Solomon and David
              > having many wives may have been alluding to spiritual or angelic wives
              > and concubines?
              > Again, thanks for any sincere and sensible feedback.
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ray Warren
              Dear Aaron and Jake, Thank you very much indeed. I plan to immerse myself in these readings during the next weeks. Makes me think that perhaps I am not so
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                Dear Aaron and Jake,
                Thank you very much indeed.
                I plan to immerse myself in these readings during the next weeks.
                Makes me think that perhaps I am not so crazy after all.
                I have been finding it difficult to rationalise my experiences within the context of the Christian environment in which I work and live.
                Prior to receiving your most valued feedback, I had been resigned to concluding that my experiences were satanic in nature.
                I will keep watching this space for any more thoughts and information regarding this most sensitive issue.
                Again, thank you both very much.
                Ray.


                --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
                >
                > happy to oblige :)
                >
                > On 15 July 2013 13:20, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
                > > Greetings!
                > >
                > > The examples could go on and on - this is a theme that permeates Western religion, mysticism and occultism. I have a feeling Jake will also respond to this, with many examples of magickal practices and operations that involve sexual contact with spiritual beings.
                >
                > well an obvious road sign is the Comte de Gabalis:
                >
                > http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cdg/
                >
                > big influence on some published and manuscript grimoires.
                >
                > Also the close relations of Lamiae (such as Lilith/Sheeba) and the
                > Sibyl or sibyls is central to our magical traditions. Consider too the
                > narrow line between 'angels' and 'demons'.
                >
                > From there to the Testament of Solomon, and gendered spirits at the
                > root of Solomonic magic, despite later appearances/assumptions, places
                > the theme pretty centrally.
                >
                > Jake
                >
                > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                >
              • Serpentis Satori
                Jacob is the start of this with all his wives, but even Adam had Lilith and Eve. To accept Islam like Harams (wait again how many gals watch over the body of
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 16, 2013
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                  Jacob is the start of this with all his wives, but even Adam had Lilith and Eve.

                  To accept Islam like Harams (wait again how many gals watch over the body of Christ?) one accepts that the First Commandment/ Prime Directive is "go forth and be fruitful"... as many sects like Mormanism and others have over the ages.
                   
                  http://www.orderofmichaelsgrail.com/


                  ________________________________
                  From: Ray Warren <succseeder@...>
                  To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 5:43 AM
                  Subject: [Solomonic] intimate angels?



                   
                  I thought that I would bring up a very sensitive topic that I am struggling with - and I would value sincere and sensible feedback.
                  I am a married father of four who is aged in his fifties.
                  I am also a theology student and a school teacher.
                  Two years ago I was studying the Old Testament and noticed how Solomon and David both had many wives.
                  This made my very curious and also quite envious.
                  Because at that time my marriage was lacking intimacy, and so out of desperation I prayed to God for a concubine or a second wife.
                  I didn't think much of it, but about two weeks later a spiritual entity connected with me in an intimate way.
                  This has conintued regularly for the last two years.
                  It honestly feels like God has answered my prayer.
                  I did read somewhere that monks experiences similar types of connections with angels.
                  Has this sort of phenomenon ever been reported before?
                  Do you think that the biblical descriptions of Solomon and David having many wives may have been alluding to spiritual or angelic wives and concubines?
                  Again, thanks for any sincere and sensible feedback.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Desi
                  I never thought about it that way. But I have always believed the wives were real physical ones, Even though I have always deemed the thousands that they were
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 16, 2013
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                    I never thought about it that way. But I have always believed the wives were real physical ones, Even though I have always deemed the thousands that they were supposed to be an exaggeration
                    Desi

                    --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Warren" <succseeder@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I thought that I would bring up a very sensitive topic that I am struggling with - and I would value sincere and sensible feedback.
                    > I am a married father of four who is aged in his fifties.
                    > I am also a theology student and a school teacher.
                    > Two years ago I was studying the Old Testament and noticed how Solomon and David both had many wives.
                    > This made my very curious and also quite envious.
                    > Because at that time my marriage was lacking intimacy, and so out of desperation I prayed to God for a concubine or a second wife.
                    > I didn't think much of it, but about two weeks later a spiritual entity connected with me in an intimate way.
                    > This has conintued regularly for the last two years.
                    > It honestly feels like God has answered my prayer.
                    > I did read somewhere that monks experiences similar types of connections with angels.
                    > Has this sort of phenomenon ever been reported before?
                    > Do you think that the biblical descriptions of Solomon and David having many wives may have been alluding to spiritual or angelic wives and concubines?
                    > Again, thanks for any sincere and sensible feedback.
                    >
                  • Jake Stratton-Kent
                    ... neither word appears in the KJV. The closest thing would be the Watchers mating with the Daughters of Men, in the uncanonical Book of Enoch.
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 17, 2013
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                      On 16 July 2013 00:19, Nita Hickok <nita@...> wrote:
                      > Hello Ray
                      > I think you should look up incubus and succubus in the Bible since you
                      > are a theology student.
                      > Nita

                      neither word appears in the KJV. The closest thing would be the
                      Watchers mating with the Daughters of Men, in the uncanonical Book of
                      Enoch.
                    • Oluwatoyin Adepoju
                      Wow! Most revelatory, particularly from Aaron. I had thought the Holy Guardian Angel was part of the transcendence of the flesh and its desires often
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 17, 2013
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                        Wow!

                        Most revelatory, particularly from Aaron.

                        I had thought the Holy Guardian Angel was part of the transcendence of the
                        flesh and its desires often associated with the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

                        Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual and
                        physical experiences? I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                        where such needs have been transcended?

                        I admire your bold frankness on such an intimate and sensitive issue, Ray,
                        and am very pleased you have got such reassuring responses.

                        On your reference to claims of monks having such experiences with angels,
                        there exist two particularly great examples, great in intensity and fame,
                        of descriptions of Christian mystical experience within a sexual context.

                        The first is that of the monk St. John of the Cross, whose poetry, such as
                        'Living Flame of Love' and 'Dark Night of the Soul' is powerfully erotic
                        and amorous, and can be taken for erotic poetry of particular intensity and
                        refined power, if not that in his accompanying commentary on the poems,
                        John adopts an interpretive stance opposite to the erotic immersion of the
                        poetry, describing it in terms desire for God who transcends the senses.

                        Another is Giovanni Lorenzo Bernini's* Ecstasy of Saint
                        Teresa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_of_Saint_Teresa>,
                        *his* * famous sculpture of the great female mystic and nun, St. Tresa of
                        Avila, in which the exquisitely crafted marble shows Teresa writhing,





                        [image: Inline image 2]



                        her hands tenderly touching her breast and bosom,



                        [image: Inline image 3]



                        in what looks like an orgasmic spasm*, *the body vibrating while the
                        face is serene in pure pleasure:


                        [image: Inline image 4]


                        Mark Dunn's Goetia Girls <http://goetia-girls.com/> develops a system of
                        sexual magic from the Solomonic Goetia, describing sex as one method of
                        cultivating bonds with the spirits of the system.


                        thanks

                        toyin


                        On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent <
                        jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > On 16 July 2013 00:19, Nita Hickok <nita@...> wrote:
                        > > Hello Ray
                        > > I think you should look up incubus and succubus in the Bible since you
                        > > are a theology student.
                        > > Nita
                        >
                        > neither word appears in the KJV. The closest thing would be the
                        > Watchers mating with the Daughters of Men, in the uncanonical Book of
                        > Enoch.
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • AaronL
                        ... I feel the reason is *because* they come from such a transcendent realm. You take such a being from a place where there is no such thing as sensory input,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 17, 2013
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                          --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I had thought the Holy Guardian Angel was part of the transcendence of the
                          > flesh and its desires often associated with the Judaeo-Christian tradition.
                          >
                          > Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual and
                          > physical experiences? I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                          > where such needs have been transcended?

                          I feel the reason is *because* they come from such a transcendent realm. You take such a being from a place where there is no such thing as sensory input, then suddenly thrust them into a human host with full access to such alien sensations as physical pleasure (and, for that matter, pain), and I think it would be quite natural to want to explore and learn about these new things. Add to that the fact that they have not spent a lifetime learning how to regulate such desires, and it can result in behavior similar to an addict seeking out a fix. lol

                          I suspect this is the kernel of truth behind the stories of the Watchers and other divinities who were willing to trade all the secrets of heaven with mortals in exchange for sex. While "in the flesh", the Watchers were willing to chance the Eternal Punishment of God for just a few hours of intense physical pleasure.

                          For a good visual example, check out the movie "Michael" starring John Travolta in the title role.

                          Of course, this state was only temporary for my Guardian Angel. Over time she seemed to adapt to her new state of being bound to a physical body, and the intensity of the experience finally balanced out. After that is when she got down to the business of training me - but she certainly had a much better understanding of what it is like to live down here, which was important for the relationship to grow.

                          LVX
                          Aaron
                        • Jake Stratton-Kent
                          ... confusing magicians with traditional interests for Victorian prudes is a common error in some quarters. It would help to consider that dragging
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 17, 2013
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                            On 17 July 2013 13:28, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:
                            > Wow!
                            >
                            > Most revelatory, particularly from Aaron.
                            >
                            > I had thought the Holy Guardian Angel was part of the transcendence of the
                            > flesh and its desires often associated with the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

                            confusing magicians with traditional interests for Victorian prudes is
                            a common error in some quarters. It would help to consider that
                            'dragging traditional magic into the 21st century' involves being
                            attached to it in the first place (not with a tow rope, but via actual
                            involvement in it). Also, establishing a meaningful dialogue with
                            'modernising traditionalists' is generally avoided by post-modernists
                            prior to their 'updating' efforts. Being a misunderstood radical is
                            easier with a pre-prepared script and a stereotyped 'opposition'.

                            Which is why - in my opinion - grimoire magic is currently part of the
                            'vanguard' of the 'Western' occult revival, while many other areas are
                            stagnant and parochial.

                            > I admire your bold frankness on such an intimate and sensitive issue, Ray,
                            > and am very pleased you have got such reassuring responses.

                            why wouldn't he? ;p

                            > On your reference to claims of monks having such experiences with angels,
                            > there exist two particularly great examples, great in intensity and fame,
                            > of descriptions of Christian mystical experience within a sexual context.
                            >St. John of the Cross
                            >St. Teresa of Avila,

                            two of my favourite Saints.

                            Interested readers should be aware that the 'monogamous' nature of
                            these relations has nothing to do with Christian marriage customs -
                            similar patterns applied in Babylonian tradition, and indeed still
                            apply in Haitian...

                            http://www2.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/voodoo/student.htm

                            these particular marriages set aside days when the initiate 'sleeps
                            with' their special lwa - customarily relations with an earthly
                            partner are temporarily suspended.


                            > Mark Dunn's Goetia Girls <http://porn-pokemon.com/> develops a system of
                            > sexual magic from the Solomonic Goetia, describing sex as one method of
                            > cultivating bonds with the spirits of the system.

                            Some of these spirits - who its generally agreed behave *as if* they
                            had a separate existence and their own individual identity - may be
                            more priapic by nature than voluptuous.

                            Some of us might even prefer it that way...

                            In any case, its a bit of a jump from saying a relationship with a
                            spirit (singular) is *possible*, to assuming that a sexual
                            relationship with an entire hierarchy is *desirable*.

                            At this point the tow rope analogy returns, connection with tradition
                            is a definite advantage. A lot of spadework and experience - and a
                            pinch of humility - is more useful overall to bringing things forward
                            than a quick respray in fashionable colours.

                            For example, take a magician who has pursued contacts with the spirits
                            of an entire grimoire. Their experience may well have led to a lot of
                            innovation along the way. The grimoire is generally a starting point,
                            that's something a lot of 'traditionalists' recognise.

                            So there is no need to assume they're doing a 'by rote' system where
                            nothing 'new' ever happens (doubly unlikely since - as mentioned - the
                            spirits themselves are different). Quite the contrary.

                            Nevertheless, having proceeded with - say - fifty or so spirits - this
                            magician is unlikely to recommend collective intimacy (with attendant
                            'rights' and expectations on the parts of the spirits). Chances are
                            not all the spirits like each other, just as in mythology,
                            inter-relations between entities take many forms, its part of what
                            defines them. Even supposing a human could withstand the pressures
                            involved, assuming the spirits would be happy with a 'harem' or
                            'polygamous' arrangement is - er - unwise. Nevertheless, this doesn't
                            imply that the magician in question isn't going to make themselves
                            look and smell nice for a particular spirit.

                            So, valuing and experiencing traditional magical approaches and
                            systems is important, and doesn't imply that someone is a stuffed
                            shirt. Knowing where the brakes are - possessing survival instincts
                            and common sense - is no bad thing either. Fact is such a relationship
                            is likely to be special, and will require treating as such.

                            ALWays

                            Jake

                            http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                          • Jake Stratton-Kent
                            thought it might be an idea to contrast Aaron s HGA experience and interpretation with others. It s not exactly racy, but I hope it is intelligible, and useful
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 17, 2013
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                              thought it might be an idea to contrast Aaron's HGA experience and
                              interpretation with others. It's not exactly racy, but I hope it is
                              intelligible, and useful to some here.

                              To start with, the 'Hieros Gamos' with the HGA is not the only such
                              union envisaged in the various traditions that converge in the
                              grimoires. There are also different ideas about the spirit realm and
                              its divisions - and their capacity for interaction. The HGA might even
                              be a unique case, so far as supposed Super-Celestials are concerned.
                              Relations with other spirits might be - so to speak - a lot more down
                              to earth. (bear in mind a Pact is first and foremost a relationship,
                              though not generally a sexual one).

                              On 17 July 2013 17:56, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual and
                              >> physical experiences? I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                              >> where such needs have been transcended?
                              >
                              > I feel the reason is *because* they come from such a transcendent realm.

                              well, here we definitely differ. I see all spirits as spirits first
                              and foremost. Classification by theological or philosophical models
                              often 'sublimates' earlier more 'primitive' approaches with no such
                              co-ordinates as 'Super-celestial' or 'Transcendental'. The fact that
                              interpretations have changed needn't imply that the HGA is a higher
                              type than a nativity angel, or for that matter a lwa or a Babylonian
                              'divine husband'; only a change of context and interpretation

                              To return to Gabalis, his model interpreted all the entities discussed
                              as Elementals. He recognises that they were taken for gods, or angels
                              or demons by various sources. He does not hold those opinions himself.
                              He distinguishes them, at the least - my approach is similar, not only
                              are they *not* gods, angels and demons - but these are all man made
                              labels. The reality is a spirit world - of indeterminate nature -
                              which we can contact through various applied methodologies - but which
                              we interpret in different ways. Often the results obtained within two
                              widely differing traditions are much closer than the imposed
                              interpretations.

                              See Aghenanda Bharati's '<Tantric Tradition> for an excellent
                              comparison of Buddhist and Hindu practice, where the existence or
                              otherwise of Atman or Nirvana - which entirely distinguish the
                              interpretation - is largely irrelevant to yogic experiences.

                              >You take such a being from a place where there is no such thing as sensory input, then suddenly thrust them into a human host with full access to such alien sensations as physical pleasure (and, for that matter, pain), and I think it would be quite natural to want to explore and learn about these new things. Add to that the fact that they have not spent a lifetime learning how to regulate such desires, and it can result in behavior similar to an addict seeking out a fix. lol

                              Interest in sensory experience is equally well explained if we assume
                              1) that parts of the spirit hierarchy are actually evolved humans
                              rather than 'angels' or 'demons', and 2) that those that aren't
                              nevertheless live in close proximity ('sublunar spirits', 'aerial
                              demons', 'third order angels', all virtually indistinguishable in
                              practice).

                              > I suspect this is the kernel of truth behind the stories of the Watchers and other divinities who were willing to trade all the secrets of heaven with mortals in exchange for sex. While "in the flesh", the Watchers were willing to chance the Eternal Punishment of God for just a few hours of intense physical pleasure.

                              While the Jewish mythology undoubtedly has its own coherence we should
                              consider the relation of the Watchers legend to earlier pagan lore, in
                              which any retribution was either lacking or took another form.
                              Relations of Zeus with supposed mortal women involved Hera's jealousy
                              and various outcomes. Apollo's relationships were notoriously and
                              invariably problematic; though perhaps worthwhile in other respects.
                              Others were only distinguished from earthly relations in various ways;
                              the heiros gamos (say of a Thracian king and the Great Goddess) and
                              the corresponding Dionysian marriages required special conditions, but
                              were not generally 'dangerous' in the same way. That we find goddesses
                              having relations with mortal men as well is obviously relevant - the
                              Watchers story assumes all angels are male, and correspondingly
                              features only 'daughters of men'.

                              As I hope I've implied already, I've a lot of time for different
                              mythic contexts - pagan, Jewish and Christian - and consider them
                              important. Likewise I value traditional 'operating systems' of magic
                              highly; and see close relations with the core 'syntax' of mythology.

                              On the other hand I prefer to treat 'spirits' as individuals rather
                              than impose a particular frame, particularly a moral religious frame,
                              on how I understand them and interpret or structure our interactions.
                              In this respect Gabalis's Paracelsian interpretation applied more or
                              less universally (ie spirits are spirits), is less problematic; and
                              its overlap with certain Solomonic grimoires instructive. One
                              important aspect of Solomonic lore and magical sexuality that should
                              be mentioned again, is the Sheeba & Solomon story, linked to both the
                              Lilith or Lamia figure in myth and magic, and to the Sibyl (as related
                              both to Apollo *and* to Solomonic magic). One form of this may be
                              found here, look for the name Sibylia:

                              http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/scot16.htm#chap8

                              The magician's explicit expectation of sexual relations with this
                              spirit does not represent a decadent innovation, but a continuous
                              theme from the beginning of Solomonic magic.

                              ALWays

                              Jake
                            • Jake Stratton-Kent
                              really can t leave this lady out of the discussion; a fascinating individual as well as very on topic. http://www.idacraddock.com/bridegrooms.html
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 18, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                really can't leave this lady out of the discussion; a fascinating
                                individual as well as very on topic.

                                http://www.idacraddock.com/bridegrooms.html

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Craddock

                                http://www.idacraddock.com/


                                Jake

                                http://www.underworldapothecary.com/


                                On 17 July 2013 22:21, Jake Stratton-Kent
                                <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
                                > thought it might be an idea to contrast Aaron's HGA experience and
                                > interpretation with others. It's not exactly racy, but I hope it is
                                > intelligible, and useful to some here.
                                >
                                > To start with, the 'Hieros Gamos' with the HGA is not the only such
                                > union envisaged in the various traditions that converge in the
                                > grimoires. There are also different ideas about the spirit realm and
                                > its divisions - and their capacity for interaction. The HGA might even
                                > be a unique case, so far as supposed Super-Celestials are concerned.
                                > Relations with other spirits might be - so to speak - a lot more down
                                > to earth. (bear in mind a Pact is first and foremost a relationship,
                                > though not generally a sexual one).
                                >
                                > On 17 July 2013 17:56, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>> Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual and
                                >>> physical experiences? I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                                >>> where such needs have been transcended?
                                >>
                                >> I feel the reason is *because* they come from such a transcendent realm.
                                >
                                > well, here we definitely differ. I see all spirits as spirits first
                                > and foremost. Classification by theological or philosophical models
                                > often 'sublimates' earlier more 'primitive' approaches with no such
                                > co-ordinates as 'Super-celestial' or 'Transcendental'. The fact that
                                > interpretations have changed needn't imply that the HGA is a higher
                                > type than a nativity angel, or for that matter a lwa or a Babylonian
                                > 'divine husband'; only a change of context and interpretation
                                >
                                > To return to Gabalis, his model interpreted all the entities discussed
                                > as Elementals. He recognises that they were taken for gods, or angels
                                > or demons by various sources. He does not hold those opinions himself.
                                > He distinguishes them, at the least - my approach is similar, not only
                                > are they *not* gods, angels and demons - but these are all man made
                                > labels. The reality is a spirit world - of indeterminate nature -
                                > which we can contact through various applied methodologies - but which
                                > we interpret in different ways. Often the results obtained within two
                                > widely differing traditions are much closer than the imposed
                                > interpretations.
                                >
                                > See Aghenanda Bharati's '<Tantric Tradition> for an excellent
                                > comparison of Buddhist and Hindu practice, where the existence or
                                > otherwise of Atman or Nirvana - which entirely distinguish the
                                > interpretation - is largely irrelevant to yogic experiences.
                                >
                                >>You take such a being from a place where there is no such thing as sensory input, then suddenly thrust them into a human host with full access to such alien sensations as physical pleasure (and, for that matter, pain), and I think it would be quite natural to want to explore and learn about these new things. Add to that the fact that they have not spent a lifetime learning how to regulate such desires, and it can result in behavior similar to an addict seeking out a fix. lol
                                >
                                > Interest in sensory experience is equally well explained if we assume
                                > 1) that parts of the spirit hierarchy are actually evolved humans
                                > rather than 'angels' or 'demons', and 2) that those that aren't
                                > nevertheless live in close proximity ('sublunar spirits', 'aerial
                                > demons', 'third order angels', all virtually indistinguishable in
                                > practice).
                                >
                                >> I suspect this is the kernel of truth behind the stories of the Watchers and other divinities who were willing to trade all the secrets of heaven with mortals in exchange for sex. While "in the flesh", the Watchers were willing to chance the Eternal Punishment of God for just a few hours of intense physical pleasure.
                                >
                                > While the Jewish mythology undoubtedly has its own coherence we should
                                > consider the relation of the Watchers legend to earlier pagan lore, in
                                > which any retribution was either lacking or took another form.
                                > Relations of Zeus with supposed mortal women involved Hera's jealousy
                                > and various outcomes. Apollo's relationships were notoriously and
                                > invariably problematic; though perhaps worthwhile in other respects.
                                > Others were only distinguished from earthly relations in various ways;
                                > the heiros gamos (say of a Thracian king and the Great Goddess) and
                                > the corresponding Dionysian marriages required special conditions, but
                                > were not generally 'dangerous' in the same way. That we find goddesses
                                > having relations with mortal men as well is obviously relevant - the
                                > Watchers story assumes all angels are male, and correspondingly
                                > features only 'daughters of men'.
                                >
                                > As I hope I've implied already, I've a lot of time for different
                                > mythic contexts - pagan, Jewish and Christian - and consider them
                                > important. Likewise I value traditional 'operating systems' of magic
                                > highly; and see close relations with the core 'syntax' of mythology.
                                >
                                > On the other hand I prefer to treat 'spirits' as individuals rather
                                > than impose a particular frame, particularly a moral religious frame,
                                > on how I understand them and interpret or structure our interactions.
                                > In this respect Gabalis's Paracelsian interpretation applied more or
                                > less universally (ie spirits are spirits), is less problematic; and
                                > its overlap with certain Solomonic grimoires instructive. One
                                > important aspect of Solomonic lore and magical sexuality that should
                                > be mentioned again, is the Sheeba & Solomon story, linked to both the
                                > Lilith or Lamia figure in myth and magic, and to the Sibyl (as related
                                > both to Apollo *and* to Solomonic magic). One form of this may be
                                > found here, look for the name Sibylia:
                                >
                                > http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/scot16.htm#chap8
                                >
                                > The magician's explicit expectation of sexual relations with this
                                > spirit does not represent a decadent innovation, but a continuous
                                > theme from the beginning of Solomonic magic.
                                >
                                > ALWays
                                >
                                > Jake
                              • Serpentis Satori
                                  ^^^^ Its exactly as Sufi Tradition states, and much of Kabalah about the Exiled Princess.   thought it might be an idea to contrast Aaron s HGA experience
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jul 18, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                   
                                  ^^^^ Its exactly as Sufi Tradition states, and much of Kabalah about the Exiled Princess.


                                   
                                  thought it might be an idea to contrast Aaron's HGA experience and
                                  interpretation with others. It's not exactly racy, but I hope it is
                                  intelligible, and useful to some here.

                                  To start with, the 'Hieros Gamos' with the HGA is not the only such
                                  union envisaged in the various traditions that converge in the
                                  grimoires. There are also different ideas about the spirit realm and
                                  its divisions - and their capacity for interaction. The HGA might even
                                  be a unique case, so far as supposed Super-Celestials are concerned.
                                  Relations with other spirits might be - so to speak - a lot more down
                                  to earth. (bear in mind a Pact is first and foremost a relationship,
                                  though not generally a sexual one).

                                  On 17 July 2013 17:56, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual and
                                  >> physical experiences? I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                                  >> where such needs have been transcended?
                                  >
                                  > I feel the reason is *because* they come from such a transcendent realm.

                                  well, here we definitely differ. I see all spirits as spirits first
                                  and foremost. Classification by theological or philosophical models
                                  often 'sublimates' earlier more 'primitive' approaches with no such
                                  co-ordinates as 'Super-celestial' or 'Transcendental'. The fact that
                                  interpretations have changed needn't imply that the HGA is a higher
                                  type than a nativity angel, or for that matter a lwa or a Babylonian
                                  'divine husband'; only a change of context and interpretation

                                  To return to Gabalis, his model interpreted all the entities discussed
                                  as Elementals. He recognises that they were taken for gods, or angels
                                  or demons by various sources. He does not hold those opinions himself.
                                  He distinguishes them, at the least - my approach is similar, not only
                                  are they *not* gods, angels and demons - but these are all man made
                                  labels. The reality is a spirit world - of indeterminate nature -
                                  which we can contact through various applied methodologies - but which
                                  we interpret in different ways. Often the results obtained within two
                                  widely differing traditions are much closer than the imposed
                                  interpretations.

                                  See Aghenanda Bharati's '<Tantric Tradition> for an excellent
                                  comparison of Buddhist and Hindu practice, where the existence or
                                  otherwise of Atman or Nirvana - which entirely distinguish the
                                  interpretation - is largely irrelevant to yogic experiences.

                                  >You take such a being from a place where there is no such thing as sensory input, then suddenly thrust them into a human host with full access to such alien sensations as physical pleasure (and, for that matter, pain), and I think it would be quite natural to want to explore and learn about these new things. Add to that the fact that they have not spent a lifetime learning how to regulate such desires, and it can result in behavior similar to an addict seeking out a fix. lol

                                  Interest in sensory experience is equally well explained if we assume
                                  1) that parts of the spirit hierarchy are actually evolved humans
                                  rather than 'angels' or 'demons', and 2) that those that aren't
                                  nevertheless live in close proximity ('sublunar spirits', 'aerial
                                  demons', 'third order angels', all virtually indistinguishable in
                                  practice).

                                  > I suspect this is the kernel of truth behind the stories of the Watchers and other divinities who were willing to trade all the secrets of heaven with mortals in exchange for sex. While "in the flesh", the Watchers were willing to chance the Eternal Punishment of God for just a few hours of intense physical pleasure.

                                  While the Jewish mythology undoubtedly has its own coherence we should
                                  consider the relation of the Watchers legend to earlier pagan lore, in
                                  which any retribution was either lacking or took another form.
                                  Relations of Zeus with supposed mortal women involved Hera's jealousy
                                  and various outcomes. Apollo's relationships were notoriously and
                                  invariably problematic; though perhaps worthwhile in other respects.
                                  Others were only distinguished from earthly relations in various ways;
                                  the heiros gamos (say of a Thracian king and the Great Goddess) and
                                  the corresponding Dionysian marriages required special conditions, but
                                  were not generally 'dangerous' in the same way. That we find goddesses
                                  having relations with mortal men as well is obviously relevant - the
                                  Watchers story assumes all angels are male, and correspondingly
                                  features only 'daughters of men'.

                                  As I hope I've implied already, I've a lot of time for different
                                  mythic contexts - pagan, Jewish and Christian - and consider them
                                  important. Likewise I value traditional 'operating systems' of magic
                                  highly; and see close relations with the core 'syntax' of mythology.

                                  On the other hand I prefer to treat 'spirits' as individuals rather
                                  than impose a particular frame, particularly a moral religious frame,
                                  on how I understand them and interpret or structure our interactions.
                                  In this respect Gabalis's Paracelsian interpretation applied more or
                                  less universally (ie spirits are spirits), is less problematic; and
                                  its overlap with certain Solomonic grimoires instructive. One
                                  important aspect of Solomonic lore and magical sexuality that should
                                  be mentioned again, is the Sheeba & Solomon story, linked to both the
                                  Lilith or Lamia figure in myth and magic, and to the Sibyl (as related
                                  both to Apollo *and* to Solomonic magic). One form of this may be
                                  found here, look for the name Sibylia:

                                  http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/scot16.htm#chap8

                                  The magician's explicit expectation of sexual relations with this
                                  spirit does not represent a decadent innovation, but a continuous
                                  theme from the beginning of Solomonic magic.

                                  ALWays

                                  Jake



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Akubata
                                  Permit me, but I am willing to wager $100 that God will never send his angel to have sexual relationship with you in response to your prayer for a concubine.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                    Permit me, but I am willing to wager $100 that God will never send his angel to have sexual relationship with you in response to your prayer for a concubine. So, my first thought was incubus and succubus!!
                                    Also, I am inclined to go along with your hunches, to wit, that your experience is demonic!  If God punished the fallen angels who mated with humans, why would he turn around and send an angel to mate with you? And you are a married man?! Think adultery.
                                    I know some will jump and twist the Bible story of the birth of Jesus...

                                    I'd suggest that you banish the entity that's having carnal knowledge of you and seek ways of improving your marital relationship.

                                    Aku.




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Ray Warren <succseeder@...>
                                    To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 9:11 PM
                                    Subject: [Solomonic] Re: intimate angels?



                                     


                                    Dear Aaron and Jake,
                                    Thank you very much indeed.
                                    I plan to immerse myself in these readings during the next weeks.
                                    Makes me think that perhaps I am not so crazy after all.
                                    I have been finding it difficult to rationalise my experiences within the context of the Christian environment in which I work and live.
                                    Prior to receiving your most valued feedback, I had been resigned to concluding that my experiences were satanic in nature.
                                    I will keep watching this space for any more thoughts and information regarding this most sensitive issue.
                                    Again, thank you both very much.
                                    Ray.

                                    --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > happy to oblige :)
                                    >
                                    > On 15 July 2013 13:20, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
                                    > > Greetings!
                                    > >
                                    > > The examples could go on and on - this is a theme that permeates Western religion, mysticism and occultism. I have a feeling Jake will also respond to this, with many examples of magickal practices and operations that involve sexual contact with spiritual beings.
                                    >
                                    > well an obvious road sign is the Comte de Gabalis:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cdg/
                                    >
                                    > big influence on some published and manuscript grimoires.
                                    >
                                    > Also the close relations of Lamiae (such as Lilith/Sheeba) and the
                                    > Sibyl or sibyls is central to our magical traditions. Consider too the
                                    > narrow line between 'angels' and 'demons'.
                                    >
                                    > From there to the Testament of Solomon, and gendered spirits at the
                                    > root of Solomonic magic, despite later appearances/assumptions, places
                                    > the theme pretty centrally.
                                    >
                                    > Jake
                                    >
                                    > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                                    >




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Oluwatoyin Adepoju
                                    Amazing. Presents spirituality in a light very different from traditional associations with angels in the Judaeo-Christian context : ....they come from such a
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                      Amazing.

                                      Presents spirituality in a light very different from traditional
                                      associations with angels in the Judaeo-Christian context :

                                      '....they come from such a transcendent realm. ... a being from a place
                                      where there is no such thing as sensory input...suddenly thrust...into a
                                      human host with full access to such alien sensations as physical pleasure
                                      (and, for that matter, pain)... it would be quite natural to want to
                                      explore and learn about these new things.... they have not spent a lifetime
                                      learning how to regulate such desires....'

                                      If God exists, a valid expectation if one believes in spirits, would
                                      It/He/She also entertain such needs as the desire to experience physical
                                      sensations?

                                      Would God need human beings, then, in ordered to experience the physicality
                                      of the cosmos the divine one has created?

                                      There is a superb exploration of this question in David Zindell's science
                                      fiction novel* Neverness <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverness>*, in
                                      which a space pilot who penetrates to the core of the sentient cluster of
                                      celestial bodies known as the Solid State Entity has that galactic
                                      intelligence construct a human female body to enable Her sleep with him.

                                      Such accounts are echoes of such enigmatic stories as that of Odysseus in
                                      Homer's *Odyssey*, whom Circe keeps as a lover for many years on his way
                                      back from the Trojan war, of stories of underwater entities keeping human
                                      lovers, the most memorable of which is Hans Andersen's 'The Mermaid', in
                                      which the mermaid who endures terrible pains to enable her meet her human
                                      lover on land.

                                      Particularly memorable, though, is Aaron's account of the Holy Guardian
                                      Angel as lover in every sense of the term.

                                      Wow.

                                      Is that not significant inducement, reinforcing the promise of knowledge
                                      and power, to perform the mind and body stretching Abramelin ritual?

                                      If I might ask, would a human partner not be made uncomfortable by one
                                      having a spirit that is also one's lover?

                                      On the part of the spirit, while the HGA may be described as so enlightened
                                      as not to be jealous, some spirits are described as being jealous of
                                      sharing their human lover with another human and could act against the
                                      person sharing their human partner.

                                      Some spirits with erotic desires are also described as dangerous, in that
                                      they wear down the human partner with their demands, which are beyond
                                      human capacity.

                                      Some are also depicted as using sex to manipulate the human beings.


                                      thanks

                                      toyin





                                      On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:56 PM, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I had thought the Holy Guardian Angel was part of the transcendence of
                                      > the
                                      > > flesh and its desires often associated with the Judaeo-Christian
                                      > tradition.
                                      > >
                                      > > Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual
                                      > and
                                      > > physical experiences? I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                                      > > where such needs have been transcended?
                                      >
                                      > I feel the reason is *because* they come from such a transcendent realm.
                                      > You take such a being from a place where there is no such thing as sensory
                                      > input, then suddenly thrust them into a human host with full access to such
                                      > alien sensations as physical pleasure (and, for that matter, pain), and I
                                      > think it would be quite natural to want to explore and learn about these
                                      > new things. Add to that the fact that they have not spent a lifetime
                                      > learning how to regulate such desires, and it can result in behavior
                                      > similar to an addict seeking out a fix. lol
                                      >
                                      > I suspect this is the kernel of truth behind the stories of the Watchers
                                      > and other divinities who were willing to trade all the secrets of heaven
                                      > with mortals in exchange for sex. While "in the flesh", the Watchers were
                                      > willing to chance the Eternal Punishment of God for just a few hours of
                                      > intense physical pleasure.
                                      >
                                      > For a good visual example, check out the movie "Michael" starring John
                                      > Travolta in the title role.
                                      >
                                      > Of course, this state was only temporary for my Guardian Angel. Over time
                                      > she seemed to adapt to her new state of being bound to a physical body, and
                                      > the intensity of the experience finally balanced out. After that is when
                                      > she got down to the business of training me - but she certainly had a much
                                      > better understanding of what it is like to live down here, which was
                                      > important for the relationship to grow.
                                      >
                                      > LVX
                                      > Aaron
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • AaronL
                                      ... In my view as a pantheist/animist, this is the entire reason for the Creation from start to finish. God is all things, and the universe exists as God
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                        --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:

                                        > If God exists, a valid expectation if one believes in spirits, would
                                        > It/He/She also entertain such needs as the desire to experience physical
                                        > sensations?
                                        >
                                        > Would God need human beings, then, in ordered to experience the physicality
                                        > of the cosmos the divine one has created?

                                        In my view as a pantheist/animist, this is the entire reason for the Creation from start to finish. God is all things, and the universe exists as God experiencing Itself.

                                        > If I might ask, would a human partner not be made uncomfortable by one
                                        > having a spirit that is also one's lover?

                                        I'm not sure what you mean by "uncomfortable" in this sense...?

                                        LVX
                                        Aaron
                                      • Sara
                                        I agree with Aaron; I too see that as the entire point of creation. Exactly the same way the flesh wants to ascend to spirit, spirit yearns to incarnate. At
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jul 19, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I agree with Aaron; I too see that as the entire point of creation.
                                          Exactly the same way the flesh wants to "ascend" to spirit, spirit yearns
                                          to incarnate. At least in Judaism, that's in no way "very different from
                                          traditional associations"; God's relationship with Israel is, in every way,
                                          a sexual relationship. We (Israel) are frequently referred to as his
                                          Bride. The image inside the Holy of Holies in the Temple, on the arc was
                                          two kerubim having sex. In fact, there's a story in the Talmud about how
                                          it was Romans who had the idea that sex is shameful rather than holy.

                                          "Said Resh Lakish, �When the Gentiles entered the Sanctuary, they saw (the
                                          engravings of) the cherubim joined together in an embrace. They took (the
                                          engravings) out to the marketplace, and they said, Should these Israelites
                                          - whose blessing is a blessing and whose curse is a curse [ie, who are
                                          potently magical/spiritual] - be involved in such [sexual] matters?"

                                          (Babylonian Talmud Yoma 54a)


                                          On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 4:04 PM, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:

                                          > **
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > If God exists, a valid expectation if one believes in spirits, would
                                          > > It/He/She also entertain such needs as the desire to experience physical
                                          > > sensations?
                                          > >
                                          > > Would God need human beings, then, in ordered to experience the
                                          > physicality
                                          > > of the cosmos the divine one has created?
                                          >
                                          > In my view as a pantheist/animist, this is the entire reason for the
                                          > Creation from start to finish. God is all things, and the universe exists
                                          > as God experiencing Itself.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > If I might ask, would a human partner not be made uncomfortable by one
                                          > > having a spirit that is also one's lover?
                                          >
                                          > I'm not sure what you mean by "uncomfortable" in this sense...?
                                          >
                                          > LVX
                                          > Aaron
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Satori
                                          ... %%% And Joan of Arc, and her ummm Relations with Micheal?
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                            --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Wow!
                                            >
                                            > Most revelatory, particularly from Aaron.
                                            >
                                            > I had thought the Holy Guardian Angel was part of the transcendence of the
                                            > flesh and its desires often associated with the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

                                            %%% The Jewish Tradition has no such nonsense Toyin. In Keter is Malkuth in Malkuth is Keter. The Fallen Princess of the Kingdom is the Queen of Heaven!

                                            >
                                            > Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual and
                                            > physical experiences?

                                            %%% For the least, maybe Gender? Or a personal non-universial Agape type love? (Like Opera rather Chanting?)

                                            > I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                                            > where such needs have been transcended?

                                            %%% The Gnostic, Qoranic, Zoharic... well the Tradition said exactly the opposite, as far back as the Three Strangers.


                                            > On your reference to claims of monks having such experiences with angels,
                                            > there exist two particularly great examples, great in intensity and fame,
                                            > of descriptions of Christian mystical experience within a sexual context.

                                            %%% And Joan of Arc, and her ummm Relations with Micheal?
                                          • Satori
                                            They may come from such a realm. But they work here.
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                              They may come from such a realm. But they work here.

                                              --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Amazing.
                                              >
                                              > Presents spirituality in a light very different from traditional
                                              > associations with angels in the Judaeo-Christian context :
                                              >
                                              > '....they come from such a transcendent realm. ... a being from a place
                                              > where there is no such thing as sensory input...suddenly thrust...into a
                                              > human host with full access to such alien sensations as physical pleasure
                                              > (and, for that matter, pain)... it would be quite natural to want to
                                              > explore and learn about these new things.... they have not spent a lifetime
                                              > learning how to regulate such desires....'
                                              >
                                              > If God exists, a valid expectation if one believes in spirits, would
                                              > It/He/She also entertain such needs as the desire to experience physical
                                              > sensations?
                                              >
                                              > Would God need human beings, then, in ordered to experience the physicality
                                              > of the cosmos the divine one has created?
                                              >
                                              > There is a superb exploration of this question in David Zindell's science
                                              > fiction novel* Neverness <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverness>*, in
                                              > which a space pilot who penetrates to the core of the sentient cluster of
                                              > celestial bodies known as the Solid State Entity has that galactic
                                              > intelligence construct a human female body to enable Her sleep with him.
                                              >
                                              > Such accounts are echoes of such enigmatic stories as that of Odysseus in
                                              > Homer's *Odyssey*, whom Circe keeps as a lover for many years on his way
                                              > back from the Trojan war, of stories of underwater entities keeping human
                                              > lovers, the most memorable of which is Hans Andersen's 'The Mermaid', in
                                              > which the mermaid who endures terrible pains to enable her meet her human
                                              > lover on land.
                                              >
                                              > Particularly memorable, though, is Aaron's account of the Holy Guardian
                                              > Angel as lover in every sense of the term.
                                              >
                                              > Wow.
                                              >
                                              > Is that not significant inducement, reinforcing the promise of knowledge
                                              > and power, to perform the mind and body stretching Abramelin ritual?
                                              >
                                              > If I might ask, would a human partner not be made uncomfortable by one
                                              > having a spirit that is also one's lover?
                                              >
                                              > On the part of the spirit, while the HGA may be described as so enlightened
                                              > as not to be jealous, some spirits are described as being jealous of
                                              > sharing their human lover with another human and could act against the
                                              > person sharing their human partner.
                                              >
                                              > Some spirits with erotic desires are also described as dangerous, in that
                                              > they wear down the human partner with their demands, which are beyond
                                              > human capacity.
                                              >
                                              > Some are also depicted as using sex to manipulate the human beings.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > thanks
                                              >
                                              > toyin
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:56 PM, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I had thought the Holy Guardian Angel was part of the transcendence of
                                              > > the
                                              > > > flesh and its desires often associated with the Judaeo-Christian
                                              > > tradition.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Aaron, may I ask why an angel of that class would want to enjoy sexual
                                              > > and
                                              > > > physical experiences? I thought they are supposed to come from a realm
                                              > > > where such needs have been transcended?
                                              > >
                                              > > I feel the reason is *because* they come from such a transcendent realm.
                                              > > You take such a being from a place where there is no such thing as sensory
                                              > > input, then suddenly thrust them into a human host with full access to such
                                              > > alien sensations as physical pleasure (and, for that matter, pain), and I
                                              > > think it would be quite natural to want to explore and learn about these
                                              > > new things. Add to that the fact that they have not spent a lifetime
                                              > > learning how to regulate such desires, and it can result in behavior
                                              > > similar to an addict seeking out a fix. lol
                                              > >
                                              > > I suspect this is the kernel of truth behind the stories of the Watchers
                                              > > and other divinities who were willing to trade all the secrets of heaven
                                              > > with mortals in exchange for sex. While "in the flesh", the Watchers were
                                              > > willing to chance the Eternal Punishment of God for just a few hours of
                                              > > intense physical pleasure.
                                              > >
                                              > > For a good visual example, check out the movie "Michael" starring John
                                              > > Travolta in the title role.
                                              > >
                                              > > Of course, this state was only temporary for my Guardian Angel. Over time
                                              > > she seemed to adapt to her new state of being bound to a physical body, and
                                              > > the intensity of the experience finally balanced out. After that is when
                                              > > she got down to the business of training me - but she certainly had a much
                                              > > better understanding of what it is like to live down here, which was
                                              > > important for the relationship to grow.
                                              > >
                                              > > LVX
                                              > > Aaron
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • Serpentis Satori
                                              The Great Prophet Sting teacheth: We are Spirits, in a Material World, We are Spirits in a Material World The boundries between Man/God, Man/Angel,
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                                The Great Prophet Sting teacheth:

                                                "We are Spirits, in a Material World,
                                                We are Spirits in a Material World"

                                                The boundries between Man/God, Man/Angel, Man/Spirits are gradients. Not black and white classes of Being.



                                                 

                                                --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:

                                                > If God exists, a valid expectation if one believes in spirits, would
                                                > It/He/She also entertain such needs as the desire to experience physical
                                                > sensations?
                                                >
                                                > Would God need human beings, then, in ordered to experience the physicality
                                                > of the cosmos the divine one has created?

                                                In my view as a pantheist/animist, this is the entire reason for the Creation from start to finish. God is all things, and the universe exists as God experiencing Itself.

                                                > If I might ask, would a human partner not be made uncomfortable by one
                                                > having a spirit that is also one's lover?

                                                I'm not sure what you mean by "uncomfortable" in this sense...?

                                                LVX
                                                Aaron




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • snowfirel
                                                Every living being needs to feel loved. sf In a message dated 7/19/2013 4:08:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ... physicality ... In my view as a
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jul 20, 2013
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                                                  Every living being needs to feel loved. sf


                                                  In a message dated 7/19/2013 4:08:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                  kheph777@... writes:





                                                  --- In _solomonic@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solomonic@yahoogroups.com) ,
                                                  Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:

                                                  > If God exists, a valid expectation if one believes in spirits, would
                                                  > It/He/She also entertain such needs as the desire to experience physical
                                                  > sensations?
                                                  >
                                                  > Would God need human beings, then, in ordered to experience the
                                                  physicality
                                                  > of the cosmos the divine one has created?

                                                  In my view as a pantheist/animist, this is the entire reason for the
                                                  Creation from start to finish. God is all things, and the universe exists as God
                                                  experiencing Itself.

                                                  > If I might ask, would a human partner not be made uncomfortable by one
                                                  > having a spirit that is also one's lover?

                                                  I'm not sure what you mean by "uncomfortable" in this sense...?

                                                  LVX
                                                  Aaron






                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • thaumaturgy777
                                                  ... And the congregation replied, Amen! :-) In LVX, Magus
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jul 24, 2013
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                                                    --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Serpentis Satori <serpentsatori@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > The Great Prophet Sting teacheth:
                                                    >
                                                    > "We are Spirits, in a Material World,
                                                    > We are Spirits in a Material World"


                                                    And the congregation replied, "Amen!" :-)


                                                    In LVX,
                                                    Magus
                                                  • Carlos-Antonio Barraza
                                                    Yes we are made up of malkut in assiah ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jul 24, 2013
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                                                      Yes we are made up of malkut in assiah
                                                      On Jul 24, 2013 12:06 PM, "thaumaturgy777" <thaumaturgy777@...> wrote:

                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Serpentis Satori <serpentsatori@...>
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The Great Prophet Sting teacheth:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > "We are Spirits, in a Material World,
                                                      > > We are Spirits in a Material World"
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > And the congregation replied, "Amen!" :-)
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > In LVX,
                                                      > Magus
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > "Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires" is now available! Let me know what
                                                      > you think.
                                                      > http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexsecrets.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >


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