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Tubal Cain &/orCain and magical tradition

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  • Jake Stratton-Kent
    I ve joined a traditional witchcraft list where the Clan of Tubal Cain is among the topics discussed. A few old friends there, and some interesting
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 28, 2013
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      I've joined a traditional witchcraft list where the Clan of Tubal Cain
      is among the topics discussed. A few old friends there, and some
      interesting discussions.

      What I get so far might interest the list, and is on topic here too.

      Among the 'modern witch gods' (Huson) in some formulations are Azazel
      aka Tubal-Cain. He in turn has a higher/lower relationship with a god
      identified by some as Shamash, the Chaldean Sun god in back of
      Solomonic Sunday attributions etc.

      This matches some aspects of goetic theology, examples being relations
      between a Sun god and decan elemental chiefs in antiquity; mirrored by
      Lucifer's with kings and deputies in the grimoires, and similar
      conceptions in Kimbanda.

      Azazel is a 'rabbinical' name (Mathers) equivalent to one or other of
      the Four Kings frequently discussed here. The Azazel group is first
      mentioned by Saint Irenaeus in the literary record btw.

      So far so good. Hellenistic, Grimoire & witchcraft terms comparing
      fairly readily.

      It's proven harder with Cain than with Tubal-Cain, he follows a
      different line of descent where grimoirist and witch finding things in
      common isn't mutually easy.

      here's one handle on what some of the mythical associations of the
      modern witch 'Cain figure are:

      http://www.clanoftubalcain.org.uk/cain_ag.html

      Among the constellations here is Bootes, a northern circumpolar
      constellation. My Fixed Star reference resources being good, I checked
      this out. Bootes, &/or its principal star Arcturus, is rich in lore
      and among other things has a classical title - Arator - phonetically
      similar to one of the more mysterious four kings: Ariton, as well as
      to the Olympic spirit Aratron. Some of that hangs together quite well,
      whether or not it pertains to Cain ancient or modern. So I'm a happy
      bunny.

      ALWays

      Jake

      http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
    • Jake Stratton-Kent
      There is something here worth engaging with. ... he doesn t necessarily. He does represent some relevant things in a variety of ways (relevant doesn t mean
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 28, 2013
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        There is something here worth engaging with.

        On 18 June 2013 17:47, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:
        > I'm puzzled.
        >
        > In what sense does *Tubal Cain* - the first artificer in metals,
        > demonstrate qualities relevant to a solitary magical practice?

        he doesn't necessarily. He does 'represent' some relevant things in a
        variety of ways (relevant doesn't mean 'necessary, but a legitimate
        line of inquiry, btw).

        there's himself as a mythic figure related to other identifiable
        figures. Myth has a syntax.
        there's figures identifiable in Solomonic ritual, or Hermetic and
        other cognates, that folks can identify with through their spirit
        work.

        Getting there with Cain does require some handles. There is also, so
        I'm discovering, a fair bit of politics in modern circles in this
        regard. Ill try & avoid, and worry about it only if necessary.

        Now, onto Cain.

        > The key concept here is 'solitary practice', a form of aloneness, of
        > distance from social forms.
        >
        > Is that not more relevant in relation to the life of Cain, exiled by God
        > from human society?
        >
        > A central idea in transgressive Western magic is that of operating in
        > opposition to traditional hero figures. Thus, the Qlipoth, the obverse of
        > the Qabbalistic angelic Sephiroth, are celebrated by some, such as the
        > group Dragon Rouge, Set, the enemy of Osiris is celebrated by some,
        > Lillith, the antagonistic wife of Adam, is upheld by others. Lucifer
        > becomes the God of some.

        I don't disagree with this at all. In starting a thread (or two) about
        Cain I was inviting a mytho-magical discussion. It proved necessary to
        go digging outside the group.

        There are important themes here - and they involve Myth.

        another word for which might be 'Tradition'

        How we understand myth and tradition are two very closely related topics.

        Cain as a transgressive figure, I can place in a Luciferian context &
        involve Set and Lilith in the same discussion. As well as discuss
        other aspects of these figures, and how they relate to roles important
        in traditional magic *AND* the syntax of Myth.

        'The Qlipoth' is a context that touches on mythology and some of our
        characters, relevant to discussions of the cast, likely to mythic
        roles - the older Kabbalistic context versus the recent adoption via
        GD and Grant introduces too many variables and obscurities that don't
        help a discussion of characters and their deeds.

        ALWays

        Jake
      • R~
        An interesting point - throughout the history of Babylonian star-maps, the circumpolar stars were considered as representing gods of the highest rank. Arcturus
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 28, 2013
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          An interesting point - throughout the history of Babylonian star-maps,
          the circumpolar stars were considered as representing gods of the
          highest rank. Arcturus was called "Supa- Enlil who determines the
          destines of the lands." His wife, Ninlil ruled the celestial wagon (Ursa
          Major), and they are associated with the yokes that bind heaven to
          earth. He was principally associated with farmers and farming - Aratron
          is the Olympic spirit of Saturn, who was originally the god of
          agriculture, etc. Enlil was the overall ruler of the gods, a king, and
          Saturn was identified as the King Star in their mythic astrology.

          It's also interesting to note that he carries a staff with a ring on it
          in the hand facing the wagon, and holds the long end of the plough
          constellation in the other. This is interesting because Babylonian
          farmers used to hang ploughs from the rafters in the barn when not in
          use, which is directly associated with the north celestial pole being
          the rafter of the heavens mythologically - the pole star and the
          constellations rotate around this point in about 26,000 years etc. What
          I find intriguing about this is that we have two tools, the wagon and
          the plough, directly associated with Supa-Enlil, and these were both
          things made by ancient smiths, which is a direct association with Tubal
          Cain(as Val-Cain or Vulcan) that goes further back than any of our usual
          Greek/Roman mythological material does. Plus it makes me think that
          Arcturus as a talismanic (it is amongst the Behinian stars as described
          in Agrippa and the Liber Hermetis) star can do a lot more than take away
          fevers and reduce/stop the flow of blood.

          Roy

          On 6/28/2013 1:43 PM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
          > Among the constellations here is Bootes, a northern circumpolar
          > constellation. My Fixed Star reference resources being good, I checked
          > this out. Bootes, &/or its principal star Arcturus, is rich in lore
          > and among other things has a classical title - Arator - phonetically
          > similar to one of the more mysterious four kings: Ariton, as well as
          > to the Olympic spirit Aratron. Some of that hangs together quite well,
          > whether or not it pertains to Cain ancient or modern. So I'm a happy
          > bunny.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Julian
          Excellent. Good find! ... Mow a question---does this imply that the Kings are stellar as such rather than zodiacal ? In other words, the Sun is in Cancer
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 28, 2013
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            Excellent. Good find!

            On 6/28/2013 2:43 PM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
            > Bootes, &/or its principal star Arcturus, is rich in lore
            > and among other things has a classical title - Arator - phonetically
            > similar to one of the more mysterious four kings: Ariton, as well as
            > to the Olympic spirit Aratron. Some of that hangs together quite well,
            > whether or not it pertains to Cain ancient or modern. So I'm a happy
            > bunny.
            Mow a question---does this imply that the Kings are "stellar" as such
            rather than "zodiacal"?
            In other words, the Sun is in Cancer at the time when it is at the
            furthest North position in the sky during the year---thus astrologers
            call Cancer a "northern" sign.
            If Ariton is associated with the direction North, one might suppose it
            is because Ariton is associated with the sign Cancer.
            But if Ariton is called northern because of an association with
            Arcturus, that removes the specificaly Solar reference, does it not?


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • R~
            ... I wouldn t jump to that conclusion; there is a lot of mythology behind the associations of spirits, gods, myths and stars, circumpolar and zodiacal, fixed
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 28, 2013
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              On 6/28/2013 7:12 PM, Julian wrote:
              > a question---does this imply that the Kings are "stellar" as such
              > rather than "zodiacal"?
              I wouldn't jump to that conclusion; there is a lot of mythology behind
              the associations of spirits, gods, myths and stars, circumpolar and
              zodiacal, fixed and wandering, that goes way further back than late
              antiquity, and if we accept that many of the entities that we work with
              in the Grimoire tradition were appropriated from older times, there's no
              reason to assume that they have to be stellar or zodiacal. Just because
              the kings are associated with directions and so on in the terrestrial
              sphere does not bind them to the zodiac, but it does not separate the
              directions and elements from the zodiac either. The lunar mansions,
              which often correspond to things very different than a mere subdivision
              of a sign would imply, often have to do with stars that are not
              contained within them. There's way more to this than I have time for
              right now, but many of the correspondences in the Grimoires almost
              completely miss a lot of important star lore that was in place long
              before Ptolemy.

              Roy


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jake Stratton-Kent
              ... agreed, what the synthesis of Late Antiquity did was fuse together such elements into a coherent whole. As much via sustained daily cultural exchange
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 29, 2013
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                On 29 June 2013 02:45, R~ <roy@...> wrote:
                > On 6/28/2013 7:12 PM, Julian wrote:
                >> a question---does this imply that the Kings are "stellar" as such
                >> rather than "zodiacal"?

                > I wouldn't jump to that conclusion; there is a lot of mythology behind
                > the associations of spirits, gods, myths and stars, circumpolar and
                > zodiacal, fixed and wandering, that goes way further back than late
                > antiquity,

                agreed, what the synthesis of Late Antiquity did was fuse together
                such elements into a coherent whole. As much via sustained daily
                cultural exchange between thousands of ordinary folks as by
                intellectual leadership by Chaldean Priests, Greek philosophers etc.
                A 'default cosmology' emerged with internal coherence, but many threads.

                and if we accept that many of the entities that we work with
                > in the Grimoire tradition were appropriated from older times, there's no
                > reason to assume that they have to be stellar or zodiacal.

                indeed, 'planetary' or other astrological correspondences are
                frequently used with minimal timing, whether sidereal or tropical. The
                Four Kings theme connects, in my view to an 'new king and queen' via
                Aries/Libra polarity, and an old one connected with the Sothic N/S
                complex. There is a bunch of neolithic lore behind the constellations
                etc.

                I accept that the 'Synthesis' was essentially a success, it evolved a
                frame that carries older traditions forward, without disempowering
                their components. Examples, on a simpler, component based' level are
                old 'Magical alphabets' of herbal, mineral and animal lore
                incorporated into the new 'astrological' syncretic frame. Even in
                their new environment (and despite rearrangement in more than one way;
                matched to decan, sign and planet seemingly at random, for instance)
                they remain an effective, even principal part of the action. As if
                *how* they were incorporated was less important than having their
                'voice' added to the chorus.

                >Just because
                > the kings are associated with directions and so on in the terrestrial
                > sphere does not bind them to the zodiac, but it does not separate the
                > directions and elements from the zodiac either.

                agreed.

                The lunar mansions,
                > which often correspond to things very different than a mere subdivision
                > of a sign would imply, often have to do with stars that are not
                > contained within them.

                same with the decans, some of the older significance was stellar, and
                precession has displaced these. There are ways round this ..

                (in magical practice mine is usually, this is Spica's mansion *now*,
                while in 'theoretical research' it's 'this was Sothis's mansion
                *then*)

                ...but it is an immense subject, a 'joined up' background, with
                beginner/intermediate/advanced info on the ground is largely lacking
                in the community..

                There's way more to this than I have time for
                > right now, but many of the correspondences in the Grimoires almost
                > completely miss a lot of important star lore that was in place long
                > before Ptolemy.

                agreed, though much is recoverable - was indeed only 'lost' due to
                de-emphasis on the background of the directional spirits. Some of that
                is less evident in the unpublished MSS tradition of Italian
                wizard-astrologers spoken of recently in the 'Invoking Angels' review.

                I'm interested in the 'school of Dorotheus', including Hephaistion and
                others who favoured a more mythic, less rational astrology than
                Ptolemy. Their emphases involve some of the differences between
                'archaic' tradition and the 'rational' schema perpetuated by
                Renaissance astrological magic. The 'Latin' decans used by the latter
                and the 'Greek' ones extant in part and whole elsewhere also represent
                this same difference.

                ALWays

                Jake

                http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
              • Jake Stratton-Kent
                ... cheers, loving the responses too, Solomonic rules! :D ... yes and no, note the apparent Solstice alignments of many neolithic temples; this is both
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 29, 2013
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                  On 29 June 2013 01:12, Julian <belfire1@...> wrote:
                  > Excellent. Good find!

                  cheers, loving the responses too, Solomonic rules! :D

                  > On 6/28/2013 2:43 PM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
                  >> Bootes, &/or its principal star Arcturus, is rich in lore
                  >> and among other things has a classical title - Arator - phonetically
                  >> similar to one of the more mysterious four kings: Ariton, as well as
                  >> to the Olympic spirit Aratron. Some of that hangs together quite well,
                  >> whether or not it pertains to Cain ancient or modern. So I'm a happy
                  >> bunny.

                  > Mow a question---does this imply that the Kings are "stellar" as such
                  > rather than "zodiacal"?
                  > In other words, the Sun is in Cancer at the time when it is at the
                  > furthest North position in the sky during the year---thus astrologers
                  > call Cancer a "northern" sign.

                  yes and no, note the apparent 'Solstice alignments' of many neolithic
                  temples; this is both stellar and 'proto-zodiacal'. For instance, at
                  one time Sothis' heliacal rising would have preceded the 'Solstice'
                  sunrise. This renders the 'Morning Star' side of our literature rather
                  ambiguous, or nuanced; note that before later precession Sothis
                  occupied a Venus decan in the usual planetary schema, this is partly
                  why.

                  The Synthesis was Astrological, and largely Tropical, its older
                  elements could be associated with stars, winds, elements etc before
                  the Signs &c. Its the viability of the Synthesis frame that is
                  primarily important. Going back to older traditions has to be kept in
                  an adjacent, inter-communicating box to keep all the balls in the air
                  effectively.


                  > If Ariton is associated with the direction North, one might suppose it
                  > is because Ariton is associated with the sign Cancer.

                  yes, and there is a very strong connection of another such figure with
                  the first decan/mansion of Capricorn (defined in just those terms).

                  > But if Ariton is called northern because of an association with
                  > Arcturus, that removes the specificaly Solar reference, does it not?

                  see above, the Solstices tie much of the stellar lore into the
                  synthesis - but this doesn't obviate the need to explore the Sidereal
                  context, or at least its components (circumpolar stars for instance,
                  there's lots about the Pole in the papyri - some in the Hermetica too
                  IIRC - and it seems to relate to the decan system in various ways).

                  ALWays

                  Jake
                • R~
                  ... I have a lot of material on that, plus there are a lot of things like Aratus which has a lot of material about weather prediction buried under the myths,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 29, 2013
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                    On 6/29/2013 2:32 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
                    > I'm interested in the 'school of Dorotheus', including Hephaistion and
                    > others who favoured a more mythic, less rational astrology than
                    > Ptolemy. Their emphases involve some of the differences between
                    > 'archaic' tradition and the 'rational' schema perpetuated by
                    > Renaissance astrological magic. The 'Latin' decans used by the latter
                    > and the 'Greek' ones extant in part and whole elsewhere also represent
                    > this same difference.
                    I have a lot of material on that, plus there are a lot of things like
                    "Aratus" which has a lot of material about weather prediction buried
                    under the myths, which makes it very good for connecting the myths to
                    the astrological work. Dorotheus was a genius, in the way he worked the
                    triplicities (and their 3 planets) - his view corresponds very closely
                    to spirit hierarchies in the Grimoires...

                    Roy


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jake Stratton-Kent
                    ... there s some very interesting stuff encoded in the trigon lords approach to decan rulership for one. We should exchange notes more ;) Jake
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 30, 2013
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                      On 29 June 2013 22:13, R~ <roy@...> wrote:
                      > On 6/29/2013 2:32 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
                      >> I'm interested in the 'school of Dorotheus', including Hephaistion and
                      >> others who favoured a more mythic, less rational astrology than
                      >> Ptolemy. Their emphases involve some of the differences between
                      >> 'archaic' tradition and the 'rational' schema perpetuated by
                      >> Renaissance astrological magic. The 'Latin' decans used by the latter
                      >> and the 'Greek' ones extant in part and whole elsewhere also represent
                      >> this same difference.
                      > I have a lot of material on that, plus there are a lot of things like
                      > "Aratus" which has a lot of material about weather prediction buried
                      > under the myths, which makes it very good for connecting the myths to
                      > the astrological work. Dorotheus was a genius, in the way he worked the
                      > triplicities (and their 3 planets) - his view corresponds very closely
                      > to spirit hierarchies in the Grimoires...
                      >
                      > Roy

                      there's some very interesting stuff 'encoded' in the trigon lords
                      approach to decan rulership for one. We should exchange notes more ;)

                      Jake

                      http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
                    • Serpentis Satori
                        Qaine is not exiled by god. He is marked and protected, and sent east (to Egypt/Haram of the Zohar). This gets into that sticky issue of the other folks
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 2, 2013
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                        Qaine is not exiled by god. He is marked and protected, and sent east (to Egypt/Haram of the Zohar).

                        This gets into that sticky issue of the "other folks" over "east of eden" (where they get wives from a few pages later in fact?)


                         
                        There is something here worth engaging with.

                        On 18 June 2013 17:47, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <tvadepoju@...> wrote:
                        > I'm puzzled.
                        >
                        > In what sense does *Tubal Cain* - the first artificer in metals,
                        > demonstrate qualities relevant to a solitary magical practice?

                        he doesn't necessarily. He does 'represent' some relevant things in a
                        variety of ways (relevant doesn't mean 'necessary, but a legitimate
                        line of inquiry, btw).

                        there's himself as a mythic figure related to other identifiable
                        figures. Myth has a syntax.
                        there's figures identifiable in Solomonic ritual, or Hermetic and
                        other cognates, that folks can identify with through their spirit
                        work.

                        Getting there with Cain does require some handles. There is also, so
                        I'm discovering, a fair bit of politics in modern circles in this
                        regard. Ill try & avoid, and worry about it only if necessary.

                        Now, onto Cain.

                        > The key concept here is 'solitary practice', a form of aloneness, of
                        > distance from social forms.
                        >
                        > Is that not more relevant in relation to the life of Cain, exiled by God
                        > from human society?
                        >
                        > A central idea in transgressive Western magic is that of operating in
                        > opposition to traditional hero figures. Thus, the Qlipoth, the obverse of
                        > the Qabbalistic angelic Sephiroth, are celebrated by some, such as the
                        > group Dragon Rouge, Set, the enemy of Osiris is celebrated by some,
                        > Lillith, the antagonistic wife of Adam, is upheld by others. Lucifer
                        > becomes the God of some.

                        I don't disagree with this at all. In starting a thread (or two) about
                        Cain I was inviting a mytho-magical discussion. It proved necessary to
                        go digging outside the group.

                        There are important themes here - and they involve Myth.

                        another word for which might be 'Tradition'

                        How we understand myth and tradition are two very closely related topics.

                        Cain as a transgressive figure, I can place in a Luciferian context &
                        involve Set and Lilith in the same discussion. As well as discuss
                        other aspects of these figures, and how they relate to roles important
                        in traditional magic *AND* the syntax of Myth.

                        'The Qlipoth' is a context that touches on mythology and some of our
                        characters, relevant to discussions of the cast, likely to mythic
                        roles - the older Kabbalistic context versus the recent adoption via
                        GD and Grant introduces too many variables and obscurities that don't
                        help a discussion of characters and their deeds.

                        ALWays

                        Jake



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