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Re: [Solomonic] Saturnian , Solar, or Alphabetica l?

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  • R~
    ... Paracelcus was also an alchemist, and much of what I see here appears alchemical symbolism; stages of the work or something to that effect. Seragon could
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 28, 2011
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      On 2/28/2011 12:33 PM, Julian wrote:
      >
      > The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
      > is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
      > with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
      > thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
      > talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
      > a Solar symbol.
      >
      > The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
      > Version of the Key of Solomon.
      > This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
      > the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
      >
      > Julian
      Paracelcus was also an alchemist, and much of what I see here appears
      alchemical symbolism; stages of the work or something to that effect.
      Seragon could be an earlier version of Sericon, a liquid derived from
      Lead by alchemical procedures. This makes me thing that the Leo is
      basically a stage in the alchemical process as described using
      astrological symbolism, and that the cross with the hook is, again,
      Saturn or lead, or the darkening phase of what the alchemist is cooking,
      or the dross that's left in the bottom of the vessel etc. Saturn means a
      lot of things in the language of alchemy, but it's almost always a stage
      in the path to gold, the Sun. I haven't looked at any of his work for a
      while (not being much of a fan of his writing, maybe it's because of the
      translations), and don't have any here at the office with me: I could be
      more certain if I could see the context. BTW, in older astrology
      textbooks, they often use the circle with a cross on top as the symbol
      for Mars - this was prominent in some books for a while; I have no idea
      why some authors preferred it over the arrow, unless it had to do with a
      fondness for the church militant.

      Roy


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bryan Garner
      Ohhh Kathy! Have the one for Pisces? Be nice to have the translation too. Hope they are the same. Thanks Bryan ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 28, 2011
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        Ohhh Kathy!
        Have the one for Pisces? Be nice to have the translation too. Hope they are the same.

        Thanks

        Bryan

        On Feb 28, 2011, at 3:28 PM, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@...> wrote:

        > Hey Julian,
        > check out this less corupted version from a link that Joe posted a few years back
        >
        > http://tinyurl.com/48kbbbj
        >
        > Love Kathy
        >
        > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian <belfire1@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
        > > is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
        > > with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
        > > thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
        > > talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
        > > a Solar symbol.
        > >
        > > The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
        > > Version of the Key of Solomon.
        > > This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
        > > the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
        > >
        > > Julian
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • kathy
        He s usually good like that ;) Thanks for pointing out the latin abreviation link he posted Julian! Must have missed that one Love Kathy
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 1, 2011
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          He's usually good like that ;)

          Thanks for pointing out the latin abreviation link he posted Julian!

          Must have missed that one

          Love Kathy

          --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian <belfire1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ok--I now see that Joe has already identified the xpus (on the Hexagram
          > in the Heptameron) as a Latin term for Christus in message 5483.
          > His interpretation will certainly be the correct one.
          >
          > Julian
          >
          > Julian wrote:
          > > Thanks Kathy. That makes a lot more sense as a sign for Leo.
          > > I was not looking for anything in particular but just happened to notice
          > > the Saturnian appearanceof what should have looked Leonic or Solar.
          > > I then noticed that in the Hexagram, what should have looked Solar
          > > seemed Saturnine.
          > > By the way, some Hexagrams show a symbol reminiscent of this cross with
          > > a hump, then the apparent letters xpus.
          > > I suspect it is simply an x meaning "mark" and then "Phoebus Vel Sole"
          > > (mark of Phoebus or the Sun)
          > > Julian
          > >
          > > kathy wrote:
          > >
          > >> I recall from my research that I got the impression that these talismans depicted alchemical recipes of some sort but I cannot translate them......yet, and that they also predated Paracelsus.
          > >>
          > >> Keep us posted on what you find.
          > >>
          > >> Love Kathy
          > >>
          > >> --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@> wrote:
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>> Hey Julian,
          > >>> check out this less corupted version from a link that Joe posted a few years back
          > >>>
          > >>> http://tinyurl.com/48kbbbj
          > >>>
          > >>> Love Kathy
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>> --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian <belfire1@> wrote:
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>> The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
          > >>>> is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
          > >>>> with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
          > >>>> thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
          > >>>> talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
          > >>>> a Solar symbol.
          > >>>>
          > >>>> The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
          > >>>> Version of the Key of Solomon.
          > >>>> This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
          > >>>> the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
          > >>>>
          > >>>> Julian
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ------------------------------------
          > >>
          > >> "Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires" is now available! Let me know what you think.
          > >> http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexsecrets.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > "Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires" is now available! Let me know what you think.
          > > http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexsecrets.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • AaronL
          Hey Kathy I forget - weren t the symbols on those talismans taken from the Magical Calendar? LVX Aaron
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 2, 2011
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            Hey Kathy

            I forget - weren't the symbols on those talismans taken from the Magical Calendar?

            LVX
            Aaron

            --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey Julian,
            > check out this less corupted version from a link that Joe posted a few years back
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/48kbbbj
            >
            > Love Kathy
            >
            >
            > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian <belfire1@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
            > > is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
            > > with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
            > > thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
            > > talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
            > > a Solar symbol.
            > >
            > > The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
            > > Version of the Key of Solomon.
            > > This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
            > > the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
            > >
            > > Julian
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • kathy
            No mate, that was our tables of practices....that is where I corrected them from. The talismans are a whole different kettle of fish and after so much effort
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 2, 2011
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              No mate, that was our tables of practices....that is where I corrected them from.

              The talismans are a whole different kettle of fish and after so much effort and focus, with my fuzzy eyes during all the effort it took to get the bloody thing to work, I began to see the boarders of alchemical recipies in the ingravings. I was not able to trace them further back than Paracelsus at the time, but I think a browse through Trithemius' library would have held the key to the source. They do not feel like Paracelsus. They feel like something else.

              Love Kathy

              --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "AaronL" <kheph777@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Kathy
              >
              > I forget - weren't the symbols on those talismans taken from the Magical Calendar?
              >
              > LVX
              > Aaron
              >
              > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey Julian,
              > > check out this less corupted version from a link that Joe posted a few years back
              > >
              > > http://tinyurl.com/48kbbbj
              > >
              > > Love Kathy
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian <belfire1@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
              > > > is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
              > > > with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
              > > > thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
              > > > talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
              > > > a Solar symbol.
              > > >
              > > > The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
              > > > Version of the Key of Solomon.
              > > > This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
              > > > the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
              > > >
              > > > Julian
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • kathy
              See. I knew I liked you ;) ... When I say it, most people here affectionally think I am a little nuts and just ranting again.....but I think you have a point.
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 2, 2011
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                See. I knew I liked you ;)

                --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, R~ <roy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Paracelcus was also an alchemist, and much of what I see here appears
                > alchemical symbolism; stages of the work or something to that effect.

                When I say it, most people here affectionally think I am a little nuts and just ranting again.....but I think you have a point. When I was making the Pisces talisman, I was also studying Paracelsus and a few others alchemical works. Manfred Junius had a realy interesting alchemical signs and symbols glossary in the back of his Plant Alchemy book. Many of the symbols depicted for different alchemical processes also appear in the Magical Calendar as planetary symbols.


                > Seragon could be an earlier version of Sericon, a liquid derived from
                > Lead by alchemical procedures. This makes me thing that the Leo is
                > basically a stage in the alchemical process as described using
                > astrological symbolism, and that the cross with the hook is, again,
                > Saturn or lead, or the darkening phase of what the alchemist is cooking,
                > or the dross that's left in the bottom of the vessel etc. Saturn means a
                > lot of things in the language of alchemy, but it's almost always a stage
                > in the path to gold, the Sun.

                I think deciphering these talismans would be.........interesting :)

                > I haven't looked at any of his work for a
                > while (not being much of a fan of his writing, maybe it's because of the
                > translations),

                Or maybe it is because he is such a pompous asshole, that however does not really detract from his genious. I think if we were faced with the stupidity of his day (considering his passion for medicine and the ridiculous treatments that were common practice in his day that he was trying to overturn) and we could with our forward thinking perception see a clearer way through maybe we would become pompous assholes too. I seriously have to put him down occassionally whilst reading him as it really does get a bit hard to take. Some people, like Agrippa for example, can find the common human thread that makes them much easier to relate to. Reading Paracelsus is not less insightful, just less pleasant.

                Love Kathy
              • kathy_mcdonald62
                Hi Bryan, use the arrows at the top of the page they are all there. Love Kathy
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 2, 2011
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                  Hi Bryan, use the arrows at the top of the page they are all there.

                  Love Kathy

                  --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Garner <bryanashen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ohhh Kathy!
                  > Have the one for Pisces? Be nice to have the translation too. Hope they are the same.
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  >
                  > Bryan
                  >
                  > On Feb 28, 2011, at 3:28 PM, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hey Julian,
                  > > check out this less corupted version from a link that Joe posted a few years back
                  > >
                  > > http://tinyurl.com/48kbbbj
                  > >
                  > > Love Kathy
                  > >
                  > > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian <belfire1@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
                  > > > is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
                  > > > with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
                  > > > thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
                  > > > talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
                  > > > a Solar symbol.
                  > > >
                  > > > The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
                  > > > Version of the Key of Solomon.
                  > > > This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
                  > > > the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
                  > > >
                  > > > Julian
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • R~
                  ... Yep. His name is where we get the word Bombastic from. And he made medicine out of Mercury. Roy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 2, 2011
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                    On 3/2/2011 9:12 AM, kathy wrote:
                    > Or maybe it is because he is such a pompous asshole, that however does not really detract from his genious. I think if we were faced with the stupidity of his day (considering his passion for medicine and the ridiculous treatments that were common practice in his day that he was trying to overturn)
                    Yep. His name is where we get the word Bombastic from. And he made
                    medicine out of Mercury.

                    Roy


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Snowfire Lioness
                    Is there one for Scorp? sf ... From: Bryan Garner To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 6:04
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 2, 2011
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                      Is there one for Scorp? sf





                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Bryan Garner <bryanashen@...>
                      To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com <solomonic@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 6:04 am
                      Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Re: Saturnian , Solar, or Alphabetica l?

                        Ohhh Kathy!
                      Have the one for Pisces? Be nice to have the translation too. Hope they are the same.

                      Thanks

                      Bryan

                      On Feb 28, 2011, at 3:28 PM, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@...> wrote:

                      > Hey Julian,
                      > check out this less corupted version from a link that Joe posted a few years back
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/48kbbbj
                      >
                      > Love Kathy
                      >
                      > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian <belfire1@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
                      > > is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
                      > > with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
                      > > thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
                      > > talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
                      > > a Solar symbol.
                      > >
                      > > The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
                      > > Version of the Key of Solomon.
                      > > This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
                      > > the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
                      > >
                      > > Julian
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • kathy
                      Yep and we are still putting it in our teeth! How advanced are we??? Dosage and poison and such...... And how about that chemotherapy? Now that s got to be a
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 3, 2011
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                        Yep and we are still putting it in our teeth! How advanced are we???

                        Dosage and poison and such......

                        And how about that chemotherapy? Now that's got to be a good idea!...It is interesting when we start to consider how nature really operates, isn't it Roy?

                        Love Kathy

                        --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, R~ <roy@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 3/2/2011 9:12 AM, kathy wrote:
                        > > Or maybe it is because he is such a pompous asshole, that however does not really detract from his genious. I think if we were faced with the stupidity of his day (considering his passion for medicine and the ridiculous treatments that were common practice in his day that he was trying to overturn)
                        > Yep. His name is where we get the word Bombastic from. And he made
                        > medicine out of Mercury.
                        >
                        > Roy
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • kathy
                        Yes! click arrows above text page! These were used in the Pauline Arts for rising signs (occurring at exact time of birth) however and not sun signs. Have fun
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 3, 2011
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                          Yes! click arrows above text page! These were used in the Pauline Arts for rising signs (occurring at exact time of birth) however and not sun signs.

                          Have fun and report back on findings ;)

                          Love Kathy

                          --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Snowfire Lioness <SnowfireL@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Is there one for Scorp? sf
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Bryan Garner bryanashen@...
                          > To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 6:04 am
                          > Subject: Re: [Solomonic] Re: Saturnian , Solar, or Alphabetica l?
                          >
                          >   Ohhh Kathy!
                          > Have the one for Pisces? Be nice to have the translation too. Hope they are the same.
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          >
                          > Bryan
                          >
                          > On Feb 28, 2011, at 3:28 PM, "kathy" kathy_mcdonald62@... wrote:
                          >
                          > > Hey Julian,
                          > > check out this less corupted version from a link that Joe posted a few years back
                          > >
                          > > http://tinyurl.com/48kbbbj
                          > >
                          > > Love Kathy
                          > >
                          > > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Julian belfire1@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The second image is from Paracelsus` Archidoxes of Magic---note the sign
                          > > > is Leo, ruled by the Sun, and one of the sigils in the center is a cross
                          > > > with a semicircle attached to the bottom. Normally one might have
                          > > > thought this was a symbol of Saturn, but it`s inclusion in a Leo
                          > > > talisman and the proximity of the Sun image suggests it is to be read as
                          > > > a Solar symbol.
                          > > >
                          > > > The first image is the Hexagram to be worn as a lamen from the Hebrew
                          > > > Version of the Key of Solomon.
                          > > > This suggests that the sigil in the center may be a corrupted sigil for
                          > > > the Sun, rather than a Hebrew letter (such as Aleph).
                          > > >
                          > > > Julian
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • R~
                          ... That s an important point, that I ve mentioned before (perhaps not here) - the oldest anywhere-near complete astrology textbook that we have is the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 3, 2011
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                            On 3/3/2011 5:58 AM, kathy wrote:
                            > Yes! click arrows above text page! These were used in the Pauline Arts for rising signs (occurring at exact time of birth) however and not sun signs.
                            That's an important point, that I've mentioned before (perhaps not here)
                            - the oldest anywhere-near complete astrology textbook that we have is
                            the "Astronomica" by Manilius, written about 14 - 15 AD. His
                            descriptions of the rising signs were later used by Firmicus and others,
                            but somewhere along the line, they were appropriated as descriptions of
                            the monthly Sun-Signs, and have been expanded in that context ever
                            since. We think that the idea of Sun-Signs came from 16th or 17th
                            century almanac makers in England who were looking for something to
                            entertain the reading population that did not require the use of
                            mathematics - LOL.

                            Roy


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Adam Sod
                            I have a question about toxic substances in old medicines or maybe I should say a comment.   I was curious if it it recorded anywhere that the mercury used
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 3, 2011
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                              I have a question about toxic substances in old medicines or maybe I should say a comment.
                               
                              I was curious if it it recorded anywhere that the mercury used in medical/alchemical formulas was treated in any way to keep it from being toxic. I know that in TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) that mercury was used in the form of cinnabar. I know that many of the ingredients in TCM are 'prepared' before used.
                               
                              In Ayurvedic medicine, they use prepared aconite, which is very deadly; when prepared and administered correctly the person consuming it doesn't die from it.
                               
                              "Crude aconite is an extremely lethal substance. However, the ayurveda looks upon aconite as a therapeutic entity. Crude aconite is always processed i.e. it undergoes 'samskaras' before being utilised in the Ayurvedic formulations. This study was undertaken in mice, to ascertain whether 'processed' aconite is less toxic as compared to the crude or unprocessed one. It was seen that crude aconite was significantly toxic to mice (100% mortality at a dose of 2.6 mg/mouse) whereas the fully processed aconite was absolutely non-toxic (no mortality at a dose even 8 times as high as that of crude aconite). Further, all the steps in the processing were essential for complete detoxification.[2]"
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samskara_(ayurvedic)

                              If not mistaken, TCM has the same outcome when prepared cinnabar is used.
                               
                              I don't know if aconite is illegal to use in the US, but I think cinnabar is. My question is, could there have been an old process in Europe where mercury was processed, but that process wasn't known to most doctors then and now...
                               
                              Thanks,
                              AdamSod72

                              --- On Thu, 3/3/11, kathy <kathy_mcdonald62@...> wrote:


                              From: kathy <kathy_mcdonald62@...>
                              Subject: [Solomonic] Re: Saturnian , Solar, or Alphabetica l?
                              To: solomonic@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 5:54 AM


                              Yep and we are still putting it in our teeth! How advanced are we???

                              Dosage and poison and such......

                              And how about that chemotherapy? Now that's got to be a good idea!...It is interesting when we start to consider how nature really operates, isn't it Roy?

                              Love Kathy

                              --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, R~ <roy@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On 3/2/2011 9:12 AM, kathy wrote:
                              > > Or maybe it is because he is such a pompous asshole, that however does not really detract from his genious. I think if we were faced with the stupidity of his day (considering his passion for medicine and the ridiculous treatments that were common practice in his day that he was trying to overturn)
                              > Yep. His name is where we get the word Bombastic from. And he made
                              > medicine out of Mercury.
                              >
                              > Roy
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >




                              ------------------------------------

                              "Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires" is now available!  Let me know what you think.
                              http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexsecrets.htmlYahoo! Groups Links








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                            • R~
                              ... There s a system of purifying Mercury in Ayurveda as well, and I have actually had pieces of it; I did not put it in milk overnight and drink it as some
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                On 3/3/2011 11:55 AM, Adam Sod wrote:
                                > I don't know if aconite is illegal to use in the US, but I think cinnabar is. My question is, could there have been an old process in Europe where mercury was processed, but that process wasn't known to most doctors then and now...
                                There's a system of "purifying" Mercury in Ayurveda as well, and I have
                                actually had pieces of it; I did not put it in milk overnight and drink
                                it as some do. Homeopaths use Mercury, Aconite and even Arsenic, but the
                                amount used is not readable by standard analytical processes - but the
                                medicine works when it is supposed to (on babies and dogs - very well).
                                I knew someone who bought a bunch of the rasayana formulas made with
                                metals and such from India, but blood work proved that he had high
                                levels of metals in his body. Some government health services in Europe
                                pay for the extraction of amalgams from the teeth in people old enough
                                to have had fillings before the use of Mercury was banned. Basil
                                Valentine has some good work on the uses of Mercury and Antimony; there
                                is much in alchemy about this. If they did have a way of making mercury
                                non-toxic, I'd like to see the chemical analysis of their remains. It's
                                a very dangerous road to travel. If there was such a process, alchemy
                                and metallic transmutation was involved.

                                Roy


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • kathy
                                Thanks for the history on it :) When I first started to look into astrology I copped a number of lectures from Chris Warnock for placing too much importance on
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                  Thanks for the history on it :)

                                  When I first started to look into astrology I copped a number of lectures from Chris Warnock for placing too much importance on sun signs and that silly modern astrology. It looks like they sunk in, as I am sure to mention it these days.

                                  Love Kathy

                                  --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, R~ <roy@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On 3/3/2011 5:58 AM, kathy wrote:
                                  > > Yes! click arrows above text page! These were used in the Pauline Arts for rising signs (occurring at exact time of birth) however and not sun signs.
                                  > That's an important point, that I've mentioned before (perhaps not here)
                                  > - the oldest anywhere-near complete astrology textbook that we have is
                                  > the "Astronomica" by Manilius, written about 14 - 15 AD. His
                                  > descriptions of the rising signs were later used by Firmicus and others,
                                  > but somewhere along the line, they were appropriated as descriptions of
                                  > the monthly Sun-Signs, and have been expanded in that context ever
                                  > since. We think that the idea of Sun-Signs came from 16th or 17th
                                  > century almanac makers in England who were looking for something to
                                  > entertain the reading population that did not require the use of
                                  > mathematics - LOL.
                                  >
                                  > Roy
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • AaronL
                                  I appreciate this as well. I ve known for a long time that the rising sign was more important than the sun sign in traditional astrology. That s why I
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                    I appreciate this as well. I've known for a long time that the rising sign was more important than the sun sign in traditional astrology. That's why I consider myself a Capricorn before I consider myself a Cancer. However, this is the first I've heard about the specifics of the switch from rising to sun-signs.

                                    What I find most interesting is the implication that sun-signs were invented, entirely, for the purpose of tabloid-style astrology. (If your birthday is today, look for new friends...etc.) Of course, it started in almanacs then moved into tabloids and newspapers.

                                    Cool stuff. :)

                                    LVX
                                    Aaron

                                    --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the history on it :)
                                    >
                                    > When I first started to look into astrology I copped a number of lectures from Chris Warnock for placing too much importance on sun signs and that silly modern astrology. It looks like they sunk in, as I am sure to mention it these days.
                                    >
                                    > Love Kathy
                                    >
                                    > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, R~ <roy@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > On 3/3/2011 5:58 AM, kathy wrote:
                                    > > > Yes! click arrows above text page! These were used in the Pauline Arts for rising signs (occurring at exact time of birth) however and not sun signs.
                                    > > That's an important point, that I've mentioned before (perhaps not here)
                                    > > - the oldest anywhere-near complete astrology textbook that we have is
                                    > > the "Astronomica" by Manilius, written about 14 - 15 AD. His
                                    > > descriptions of the rising signs were later used by Firmicus and others,
                                    > > but somewhere along the line, they were appropriated as descriptions of
                                    > > the monthly Sun-Signs, and have been expanded in that context ever
                                    > > since. We think that the idea of Sun-Signs came from 16th or 17th
                                    > > century almanac makers in England who were looking for something to
                                    > > entertain the reading population that did not require the use of
                                    > > mathematics - LOL.
                                    > >
                                    > > Roy
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Jake Stratton-Kent
                                    While I can t be sure about the invention of Sun-Signs, it is a fact that the term Horoscope originally meant the Ascendant in Hellenistic times. There was
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                      While I can't be sure about the 'invention' of Sun-Signs, it is a fact
                                      that the term 'Horoscope' originally meant the Ascendant in
                                      Hellenistic times. There was likely also a connection with the 'god of
                                      the hour' mentioned often in the papyri etc.
                                      Also, whether by wordplay or otherwise, 'Horoscope' was associated
                                      with Horus. Even the Rx symbol used for 'Retrograde' is said to derive
                                      from the 'evil-averting' Eye of Horus, it's use in prescriptions
                                      likely reflects such magical usage also.



                                      On 4 March 2011 06:26, AaronL <kheph777@...> wrote:
                                      > I appreciate this as well.  I've known for a long time that the rising sign was more important than the sun sign in traditional astrology.  That's why I consider myself a Capricorn before I consider myself a Cancer.  However, this is the first I've heard about the specifics of the switch from rising to sun-signs.
                                      >
                                      > What I find most interesting is the implication that sun-signs were invented, entirely, for the purpose of tabloid-style astrology.  (If your birthday is today, look for new friends...etc.)  Of course, it started in almanacs then moved into tabloids and newspapers.
                                      >
                                      > Cool stuff.  :)
                                      >
                                      > LVX
                                      > Aaron
                                      >
                                      > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, "kathy" <kathy_mcdonald62@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> Thanks for the history on it :)
                                      >>
                                      >> When I first started to look into astrology I copped a number of lectures from Chris Warnock for placing too much importance on sun signs and that silly modern astrology. It looks like they sunk in, as I am sure to mention it these days.
                                      >>
                                      >> Love Kathy
                                      >>
                                      >> --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, R~ <roy@> wrote:
                                      >> >
                                      >> > On 3/3/2011 5:58 AM, kathy wrote:
                                      >> > > Yes! click arrows above text page! These were used in the Pauline Arts for rising signs (occurring at exact time of birth) however and not sun signs.
                                      >> > That's an important point, that I've mentioned before (perhaps not here)
                                      >> > - the oldest anywhere-near complete astrology textbook that we have is
                                      >> > the "Astronomica" by Manilius, written about 14 - 15 AD. His
                                      >> > descriptions of the rising signs were later used by Firmicus and others,
                                      >> > but somewhere along the line, they were appropriated as descriptions of
                                      >> > the monthly Sun-Signs, and have been expanded in that context ever
                                      >> > since. We think that the idea of Sun-Signs came from 16th or 17th
                                      >> > century almanac makers in England who were looking for something to
                                      >> > entertain the reading population that did not require the use of
                                      >> > mathematics - LOL.
                                      >> >
                                      >> > Roy
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >> >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > "Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires" is now available!  Let me know what you think.
                                      > http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexsecrets.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      --
                                      Jake

                                      http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
                                    • AaronL
                                      ... Eh - badly worded on my part. Surely sun signs existed before the almanacs. lol But, if I understand correctly, the focus shifted to them in the
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 6, 2011
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                                        --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > While I can't be sure about the 'invention' of Sun-Signs,

                                        Eh - badly worded on my part. Surely sun signs existed before the almanacs. lol But, if I understand correctly, the focus shifted to them in the almanacs (so lay people could follow their own horoscopes through the year without needing math).

                                        > it is a fact
                                        > that the term 'Horoscope' originally meant the Ascendant in
                                        > Hellenistic times. There was likely also a connection with the 'god of
                                        > the hour' mentioned often in the papyri etc.

                                        Also note the 24 Angels associated with the Ascendant in the Pauline Arts. The Angel who ascended at your birth is one of your guardians.

                                        > Also, whether by wordplay or otherwise, 'Horoscope' was associated
                                        > with Horus. Even the Rx symbol used for 'Retrograde' is said to derive
                                        > from the 'evil-averting' Eye of Horus, it's use in prescriptions
                                        > likely reflects such magical usage also.

                                        I hadn't considered this...

                                        LVX
                                        Aaron
                                      • R~
                                        ... descriptions as we do today. Whatever house the Sun Ruled (on the basis of the cusp that fell in the sign Leo, and earlier, the house defined by the
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 7, 2011
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                                          On 3/7/2011 12:28 AM, AaronL wrote:
                                          > Eh - badly worded on my part. Surely sun signs existed before the almanacs. lol But, if I understand correctly, the focus shifted to them in the almanacs (so lay people could follow their own horoscopes through the year without needing math).
                                          >>>They did, but astrologers did not use them as personality
                                          descriptions as we do today. Whatever house the Sun "Ruled" (on the
                                          basis of the cusp that fell in the sign Leo, and earlier, the house
                                          defined by the entire sign Leo, and to some degree, the relationship by
                                          angle of the Sun to Aries, where it was exalted) was considered as
                                          important regarding the health, the father, the man in a woman's life,
                                          potential for "power" in the sense of authority, and so on, but no
                                          astrologers that I know of considered the month during which one was
                                          born as a set of "personality characteristics" - those were defined by
                                          the relationships of the various planets to the signs they ruled, and,
                                          primarily, the ascendant.
                                          >> > it is a fact
                                          >> > that the term 'Horoscope' originally meant the Ascendant in
                                          >> > Hellenistic times. There was likely also a connection with the 'god of
                                          >> > the hour' mentioned often in the papyri etc.
                                          > Also note the 24 Angels associated with the Ascendant in the Pauline Arts. The Angel who ascended at your birth is one of your guardians.
                                          >>>Yes, these were 1/2 sign divisions that were related to the virtual
                                          hours as we often see in the planetary hour guide. In India, there is a
                                          more direct relationship to these divisions which is called the Hora
                                          Chakra, which is often said in the old textbooks to relate to wealth,
                                          but a careful study will show how easily character can be delineated -
                                          I wrote an article about this once that I think is on my astrology site
                                          (long overdue for updating) at "stargazersjournal.com" - I certainly
                                          believe that the type of things this chart shows would help one figure
                                          out issues at which the angel could be most effective if called upon for
                                          aid. The Hindu books are filled with lots of ways to determine various
                                          types of gods and spirits that are protectors, enemies and so on for
                                          individuals, although their systems of astrology had spun off in
                                          somewhat of a different direction from the astrology of Ptolemy, which
                                          did not reach them until the spread of Islam. I need not even mention
                                          the older Hebrew methods of doing similar things with the time of birth.

                                          > LVX
                                          > Aaron
                                          Thanks, Aaron and Jake, for your insightful comments.

                                          Roy


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