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Re: confusing sentence in petersons lesser key of solomon

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  • Kubilai
    Hey Jake, Well, I m afraid my Greek is limited to a smattering of Homeric Greek too which isn t quite the same as the Mediaeval Greek of the MSS especially
    Message 1 of 83 , Jul 1 12:54 AM
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      Hey Jake,

      Well, I'm afraid my Greek is limited to a smattering of Homeric Greek too which isn't quite the same as the Mediaeval Greek of the MSS especially given the script used, so far so I'm basing what I said on the Spanish translation of the Hygromanteia by Pablo Torijano. A pdf (not pirated) is available as the first Google search result for "Hygromanteia".

      The Hygromanteia is a part of some of Testament of Solomon Manuscripts and it does use the names of the gods for the day and hour names which at first glance might seem as though they were just referring to the planets. However, compared to Byzantine usage at the time, using the names of the gods for the week-day names itself is telling as due to the influence of the Church, the use of Judaeo-Christian based week-day names was probably already dominant since the fourth century. I can't find any sources right now from this but I think it's likely due to borrowings in Armenian and Georgian which both use forms of the (Christian) Greek name for Sunday. In fact, under the list of angels and demons for the hours of each day, even the Hygromanteia uses the Christian names.

      In the conjurations in the Hygromanteia however, although some of them are referred to primarily as "planets" like Kronos and Zeus, the others, in particular from Helios to Selene, are also ascribed with their classical attributes.

      Granted, the basic formula for the conjuration of the 7 Olympians contains a sentence invoking what seems to be the Jewish god right at the front, however, even that sentence ascribes to the "God" some of the classical attributes of the planet in question and none of the usual Judaeo-Christian godnames are used (IHVH, Adonai, Sabaoth, Elohim etc). The reference to a "God" can be easily switched for the Olympian God in question or if you were so inclined, it could be merely recognized as the Divine Source of Plato.

      On the other hand from a brief browse through the versions of the Magical Treatise as transcribed in Anecdota Atheniensia (an Athenian manuscript dated to 1295 right at the beginning and Harley 5596 from around the 15th century), reveals that the use of Jewish elements (god names mostly) is a lot more prominent - still, the lack of these elements in the Hygromanteia is telling, as with the lack of ritual paraphernalia besides something to burn incense in. An online review mentions a fuller, bloodier ritual involving a knife that was used in killing a man appended in some manuscripts.

      Based on this I believe the a version of a text similar to Hygromanteia was the root manuscript for the Magical Treatise which was in turn the root of most later Latin grimoires involving a magical circle and evocation. The Hygromanteia itself would be based on earlier magical rituals dating back to the GMP in this case, or possibly even one of the mystery religions. Still this is just speculation, and the requirement of a knife which was used in killing a man would be out of most people's ability to get which somewhat limits the utility of these texts.
      --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Kubilai,
      >
      > Thanks for spelling this out, it pretty much matches my impression,
      > +/- the odd detail, and deserves reiteration in the overly
      > 'qabalistic' climate..
      >
      > One area I'm a little unsure of is the extent the 'Seven Olympians'
      > (Kronos through Selene) are employed in the Byzantine texts. My
      > impression is that some, like the 'Magical Treatise of Solomon',
      > appear to be using them purely as names of the days, rather than gods
      > Others invoke Apollo, and resemble the papyri in combining Hellenistic
      > and what purports to be Jewish magic, rightly or otherwise. The format
      > is otherwise as you say, and it is possible my Greek isn't up to
      > recognising the exact same feature in MTS.
      >
      > ALWays
      >
      > Jake
      >
      > On 29 June 2010 11:25, Kubilai <n0m4n0r32@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I think it's probably because of Lisiewski's influence that some people think later grimoires were based on the Heptameron - based just on the purported dates of publication alone (although it is actually unlikely that Pietro d'Abano actually wrote the Magical Elements and its earliest actual editions appear in the 16th century).
      > >
      > > A bit of digging reveals rather that most of the "evocation" grimoires were probably derived from Byzantine Greek Key of Solomon manuscripts, none of which has been translated into English (or any modern language AFAIK) entirely yet unfortunately, which might also explain their lack of notice.
      > >
      > > The Greek manuscripts have:
      > > Lists of Angels and Demons for the Hours
      > > Magic Circles
      > > One knife
      > > Shoes
      > > Gloves
      > > Incense and Herbs for different Gods/Planets
      > > invocations
      > > Ourania/"pentacles" or "talismans"
      > >
      > > In other words the requirements for all the subsequent grimoires, of which different grimoires chose to specialize in different things - sometimes distorting things in the process or adding others (e.g. Judaeo-Christian elements). All those different blades in some of the French and Italian Key manuscripts for instance were likely due to errors in the line of transmission according to Joseph Peterson.
      > >
      > > The Hygromanteia, which is a part of the Greek manuscripts containing the lists of angels and demons of the hours, appropriate herbs and invocations of the planetary spirits has been translated into English in the book "Solomon the Esoteric King" which is unfortunately really, really expensive. A Spanish version by the same author is available online for free however (not pirated, no worries ;p).
      > >
      > > One thing I find remarkable is how little Judaeo-Christian influence there actually is, besides the obvious "Solomonic" overlay and the names of the angels and demons. In the actual invocations, the 7 Planetary Olympic Gods are invoked as Gods and called by their classical names. This, I think, marks the work as a genuine continuation of the tradition of the papyri, which could mix Moses and Apollo in the same conjuration.
      > >
      > > --- In solomonic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent <jakestrattonkent@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > If I understand you correctly you're saying True Grimoire is based on
      > > > the Heptameron? How so? Different spirits, different tools, different
      > > > circle - one of the Supernatural Secrets mentions the angels of the
      > > > days of the week, and mentions another book, but that is as close as
      > > > it gets. Clarification please.
      > > >
      > > > ALWays
      > > >
      > > > Jake
      > > >
      > > > On 28 June 2010 15:22, Roy Kirkland <roy@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On 6/27/2010 4:21 PM, tlg wrote:
      > > > > > jake, what is your view on buying a sacrificial knife that has been
      > > > > > made/consecrated by someone else?
      > > > > >
      > > > > I'm interested in why one would need one at all if not making homemade
      > > > > parchment? Doesn't the text imply that there is one knife to make the
      > > > > circle and another to do the sacrifice for the parchment? That seems to
      > > > > be the only time it's used in the main rites of contact...
      > > > >
      > > > > That book's based on the Heptameron; I have a really neat guide to
      > > > > making the circle if you ever need it (It's a little complicated).
      > > > >
      > > > > R~
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Jake
      > > >
      > > > http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Jake
      >
      > http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
      >
    • Bryan Garner
      Sure, this time. :) I did have all my Goetic items I made or had made in a photo bucket site but decided to delete it a while back as I have since returned to
      Message 83 of 83 , Jul 7 7:54 PM
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        Sure, this time. :) I did have all my Goetic items I made or had made in a photo bucket site but decided to delete it a while back as I have since returned to my own work and don't chat/email/ blog about doing magick as much.

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, tlg <taliesin.lothlorien.gaia@...> wrote:

        > bryan, can you post a picture of it? =)
        >
        > tlg
        >
        > 2010/7/5 Bryan Garner <bryanashen@...>
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > I had a custom made Solomonic/ Goetic sword made for me by a master sword
        > > smith. I was the only one to touch it after his hands, carbon made steel
        > > enriched iron, salt water tempered, Ancient Hebrew words deeply engraved on
        > > the blade, solid red oak handle with gold wire wrap and gold plated hilt and
        > > pommel with a red garnet on either side in the center of the hexagram star
        > > on the hilt. Spent a year designing and then having it made.
        > >
        > > Bryan
        > >
        > > Sent from my iPhone
        > >
        > >
        > > On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:31 AM, Jake Stratton-Kent <
        > > jakestrattonkent@... <jakestrattonkent%40googlemail.com>>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > > > On 27 June 2010 22:21, tlg <taliesin.lothlorien.gaia@...<taliesin.lothlorien.gaia%40gmail.com>>
        > > wrote:
        > > > > i ordered that lisiewski book, i cant wait to read it =)
        > > > > and yeah, shain erin is quite the artist =)
        > > > >
        > > > > jake, what is your view on buying a sacrificial knife that has been
        > > > > made/consecrated by someone else?
        > > >
        > > > made by someone else is not a problem, making swords and knives is a
        > > > tall order for many folks. But I do prefer mine to be from cultures
        > > > that still use them (hunting knife from Finland for my knife, and a
        > > > larger blade from a Thai tribe known for retaining their customs as my
        > > > sacrificial knife). Over elaborate fantasy weapons really turn me off.
        > > >
        > > > Buying Western magical tools consecrated by someone else is not a
        > > > circumstance I've encountered, you'd really have to be your own judge
        > > > for that. Your relationship with the person would be a factor, and
        > > > reconsecration would likely be necessary anyway.
        > > >
        > > > ALWays
        > > >
        > > > Jake
        > > >
        > > > http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


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