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Re: [force_ev] Problems Converting Force to Brusa AMC320

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  • Matthew C Childers
    Hi Gary- Can you send me schematics? (in particular, of the AMC interfacing) Are you outside of the voltage range upper limit for an AMC320? (or this one in
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 5, 2004
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      Hi Gary-

      Can you send me schematics?
      (in particular, of the AMC interfacing)

      Are you outside of the voltage range upper limit for an AMC320?
      (or this one in particular?).
      Are you sure you have the interlock (emergency off) taken care of?

      Thanks,

      Craig Childers


      Quoting gjc02000 <gjc0@...>:

      > Greetigs all:
      >
      > Last Saturday, I connected up my 1992 Solectria Force to
      > a Brusa AMC 320 controller. Nothing happended.
      >
      > In addition to the incoming high voltage (144 volts), and the three
      > phases of the GT-20 motor, I have the following connectors:
      >
      > DBM-9: Motor speed, direction and temperature sensor.
      > DBM-15: Communication port (with RS-422 - RS232 adapter)
      > DBM-25: Main controller inputs, direction, throttle, etc.
      > Four pin Molex: Brake switch and emergency shutoff.
      >
      > The ampmeter shows that I am drawing 0.2 amps at 144 volts when I
      > turn on the key. The laptop PC indications no communication or
      > missing parameter.
      >
      > The vehicle shows no interest in moving forward or backward.
      >
      > One of the pins on the DMB-25 connector of the Brusa AMC-320 is
      > for a malfunction LED. I have a red LED connected to this pin and
      > the LED flashes a little faster than once per second. This falshing
      > LED lights up as soon as I turn on the ignition key.
      >
      > Questions:
      >
      > 1) Is there any external connection (or misconnection) that will
      > cause the Brusa AMC-320 to indicate a mafunction? Or is the problem
      > definately in the Brusa AMC-320 controller?
      >
      > 2) Any hints on what else to check?
      >
      > 3) Any contacts at Solectria who might offer advice?
      >
      > 4) Any local (i.e. North America) contacts for Brusa?
      >
      > If anyone is interested, I can send schematics of my conversion as
      > well as pictures. The original Brusa controller had a 26 pin ribbon
      > cable that I adapted to the DBM-25 connector.
      >
      > Sincerely
      > Gary Carlson
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Aaron Birenboim
      My AMC300 stops driving sometimes when I hit a small, sharp bump. Suddenly... no power. I re-boot, and all is well, but its a bit dangerous. Any ideas what
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 6, 2004
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        My AMC300 stops driving sometimes when I hit
        a small, sharp bump. Suddenly... no power.

        I re-boot, and all is well, but its a bit dangerous.

        Any ideas what this might be?
        Is there anything I can do besides just blindly
        replacing wiring in the hopes that its a bad
        contact?
        --
        Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
        Albuquerque, NM |
        aaron_at_birenboim.com |
        >http://aaron.boim.com |
      • gjc02000
        Mr. Childers: (and all other Force enthusiasts) The first pass schmatics for my attempt to connect a Brusa AMC320 controller to a 1992 Solectrica Force are in
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 8, 2004
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          Mr. Childers: (and all other Force enthusiasts)

          The first pass schmatics for my attempt to connect a Brusa AMC320
          controller to a 1992 Solectrica Force are in a separate post in MS
          Word format. My first goal is to attempt to isolate the problem to
          either the Brusa controller or the car and my wiring.

          I also have pictures available.

          Thanks for the help,
          Gary Carlson

          --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Matthew C Childers <childers@d...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Gary-
          >
          > Can you send me schematics?
          > (in particular, of the AMC interfacing)
          >
          > Are you outside of the voltage range upper limit for an AMC320?
          > (or this one in particular?).
          > Are you sure you have the interlock (emergency off) taken care of?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Craig Childers
          >
          >
          > Quoting gjc02000 <gjc0@a...>:
          >
          > > Greetigs all:
          > >
          > > Last Saturday, I connected up my 1992 Solectria Force to
          > > a Brusa AMC 320 controller. Nothing happended.
          > >
          > > In addition to the incoming high voltage (144 volts), and the
          three
          > > phases of the GT-20 motor, I have the following connectors:
          > >
          > > DBM-9: Motor speed, direction and temperature sensor.
          > > DBM-15: Communication port (with RS-422 - RS232 adapter)
          > > DBM-25: Main controller inputs, direction, throttle, etc.
          > > Four pin Molex: Brake switch and emergency shutoff.
          > >
          > > The ampmeter shows that I am drawing 0.2 amps at 144 volts when I
          > > turn on the key. The laptop PC indications no communication or
          > > missing parameter.
          > >
          > > The vehicle shows no interest in moving forward or backward.
          > >
          > > One of the pins on the DMB-25 connector of the Brusa AMC-320 is
          > > for a malfunction LED. I have a red LED connected to this pin
          and
          > > the LED flashes a little faster than once per second. This
          falshing
          > > LED lights up as soon as I turn on the ignition key.
          > >
          > > Questions:
          > >
          > > 1) Is there any external connection (or misconnection) that will
          > > cause the Brusa AMC-320 to indicate a mafunction? Or is the
          problem
          > > definately in the Brusa AMC-320 controller?
          > >
          > > 2) Any hints on what else to check?
          > >
          > > 3) Any contacts at Solectria who might offer advice?
          > >
          > > 4) Any local (i.e. North America) contacts for Brusa?
          > >
          > > If anyone is interested, I can send schematics of my conversion
          as
          > > well as pictures. The original Brusa controller had a 26 pin
          ribbon
          > > cable that I adapted to the DBM-25 connector.
          > >
          > > Sincerely
          > > Gary Carlson
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • gjc02000
          Aaron Birenboim: A couple questions that might help. 1) Do you know if the 12 volt system (lights, fans, etc.) blink when you hit the bump? Can we isolate
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 8, 2004
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            Aaron Birenboim:

            A couple questions that might help.

            1) Do you know if the 12 volt system (lights, fans, etc.) blink when
            you hit the bump? Can we isolate the problem to the 12 volts system
            or to the high voltage system?

            2) Do you have a high voltage monitor? Does it flicker when you hit
            the bump?

            3) Can you reproduce the problem fairly easily or is it hard to
            repeat?

            4) Can you remove the drive belt, or jack up the car to make it
            safe, and then wiggle connections while the car thinks it is moving?

            5) Instead of replacing connectors, can you simply unplug, inspect,
            clean and re-install them. Is there a contact cleaner you can use
            with a toothbrush?

            6) If the controller is out of waranty, are you willing to remove
            it, make it safe and check for internal problems? Maybe the the
            contact is weak as you suggested. In any case a high current
            connection that is weak is an invitation for a fire. Are there any
            signs of heating where there shouldn't be?

            7) I peaked inside an older controller once and saw that it is a
            promiscuous collection of low voltage analog and high-current high
            voltage semiconductors. Some of the low voltage stuff was in
            sockets! If you are willing to open up the controller (last resort)
            consider one-by-one, removing chips from sockets, cleaning and
            reseating them.

            I am just thinking out loud,
            Good Luck,
            Gary Carlson


            --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Birenboim <aaron@b...> wrote:
            > My AMC300 stops driving sometimes when I hit
            > a small, sharp bump. Suddenly... no power.
            >
            > I re-boot, and all is well, but its a bit dangerous.
            >
            > Any ideas what this might be?
            > Is there anything I can do besides just blindly
            > replacing wiring in the hopes that its a bad
            > contact?
            > --
            > Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
            > Albuquerque, NM |
            > aaron_at_birenboim.com |
            > >http://aaron.boim.com |
          • Aaron Birenboim
            ... I hadn t noticed, but its dead now, so its harder to test. ... Similarly, I wasn t watching the analog voltmeter, end even so... It might not show up on
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 9, 2004
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              gjc02000 wrote:
              > Aaron Birenboim:
              >
              > A couple questions that might help.
              >
              > 1) Do you know if the 12 volt system (lights, fans, etc.) blink when
              > you hit the bump? Can we isolate the problem to the 12 volts system
              > or to the high voltage system?

              I hadn't noticed, but its dead now, so its harder to test.


              > 2) Do you have a high voltage monitor? Does it flicker when you hit
              > the bump?

              Similarly, I wasn't watching the analog voltmeter,
              end even so... It might not show up on the analog display.


              > 3) Can you reproduce the problem fairly easily or is it hard to
              > repeat?

              It was fairly hard. Some large bumps... no problem.
              Some man-hole covers... and poof!


              > 4) Can you remove the drive belt, or jack up the car to make it
              > safe, and then wiggle connections while the car thinks it is moving?

              I can try that if I can get it running again.


              > 5) Instead of replacing connectors, can you simply unplug, inspect,
              > clean and re-install them. Is there a contact cleaner you can use
              > with a toothbrush?

              thats what I was doing when it died.
              My guess is that the extra jostling was enough to
              break the weak connection.

              > 6) If the controller is out of waranty, are you willing to remove
              > it, make it safe and check for internal problems? Maybe the the
              > contact is weak as you suggested. In any case a high current
              > connection that is weak is an invitation for a fire. Are there any
              > signs of heating where there shouldn't be?

              No. It definately seemed more like a u-controller shutdown type
              of situation. Like some sensor was triggered on a bump
              for a soft shut-down. It looks like there is a safety
              feature on the inverter where it will not allow transition
              from "off" to "forward" when the car is in motion.
              When it was semi-working... I'd be able to stop the car.
              flip from off to forward, and take off like normal.

              > 7) I peaked inside an older controller once and saw that it is a
              > promiscuous collection of low voltage analog and high-current high
              > voltage semiconductors. Some of the low voltage stuff was in
              > sockets! If you are willing to open up the controller (last resort)
              > consider one-by-one, removing chips from sockets, cleaning and
              > reseating them.

              Since this controller is wired with little computer ribon cables,
              likely to be 12 years old, it seems to me like re-wiring with
              something tougher is in order. Would space-qualified like
              teflon cable put me in the poor house?
              Any suggestions about where to get cable and IDE/Serial connectors
              that are a little more robust than typical internal-case wiring?

              For those of you who have been inside an AMC300...
              Will it be reasonable to change the connector from the 2-row pin
              type to sub-D? I know I can get solder-type (not pinch) D connectors.

              --
              Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
              Albuquerque, NM |
              aaron_at_birenboim.com |
              >http://aaron.boim.com |
            • Aaron Birenboim
              The two manuals I have: http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMC200_300_01.pdf (AMC300 users manual, in german) http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMCxxx_16.PDF (AMC320
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 15, 2004
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                The two manuals I have:

                http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMC200_300_01.pdf (AMC300 users manual, in german)
                http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMCxxx_16.PDF (AMC320 users, german+english)

                give me a fairly clear idea of the pin-outs on the 26-pin
                ribbon connector.

                However, on my 1992 force, using AMC300, there is a 10-pin
                ribbon cable going in through the firewall, and another
                headed toward the motor.

                I haven't traced them down yet, but I'd guess that the 9-pins
                through the firewall are mostly fuses. Perhaps the brake-light
                relay activator too (I don't reacall that in the 26 main pins)

                The other 10-pins are likely to be motor sensors.

                Does anybody know how to get these pin-outs?
                Are they in there, like in the sub-drawings (i don't know german)
                Are there other documents floating about to help?

                My car is now dead. I intend to re-wire using beefier cable.
                I will try to hand solder cable ends into one of those
                ribbon connectors from nice round PVC insulated cables.

                Has anybody been into the Solectria break-out under the dash?
                Will I be able to solder into that... or does it use more
                ribbon-connectors that I may be wanting to re-build?

                i.e. am I headed for trouble.... should I just put
                new ribbon cables inside some plastic sleves like Solectria did?
                I might goop them up with silicon sealant in an attempt to make
                them a bit more reliable...

                --
                Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
                Albuquerque, NM |
                aaron_at_birenboim.com |
                >http://aaron.boim.com |
              • gjc02000
                Aaron: The 10 pin connector to the motor carries tachometer information and themperature information. The AMC320 has the same signals ending in the DBM-9
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 17, 2004
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                  Aaron:

                  The 10 pin connector to the motor carries tachometer information and
                  themperature information. The AMC320 has the same signals ending in
                  the DBM-9 connector instead of the 10 pin ribbon connector. I do
                  not have the schematic of the tachometer PCA or cable, but would be
                  interested in one if someone has it.

                  I believe the cables now in use in your Solectria Force have worked
                  for 10+ years. I would not rush out to rewire anything. I would
                  replace bad connectors and clean everything else. If you can get
                  another 10+ years, that should be pretty good.

                  Watch out when using silicones or other sealants with electrical
                  circuitry. Some sealing compounds outgas a corrosive gas when
                  curing (smells like vinegar). Check with your local electronics
                  store for RTV (don't ask me what it stands for) sealants which are
                  compatible with electronics circuits.

                  I am currently attempting to convert my 1992 Solectric Force to an
                  AMC320. I work on it when I can steal the time. Right now all is
                  connected, but nothing works. I may end up reverse engineering that
                  tachometer PCA and developing a schematic and pin-out for the
                  connector. Given my current schedule, I don't expect it to happen
                  soon. When it does get done, I would like to make a simple test box
                  to plug into the 9 pin or 10 pin connector that tests out the
                  tachometer.

                  Sincerely,
                  Gary Carlson

                  --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Birenboim <aaron@b...> wrote:
                  > The two manuals I have:
                  >
                  > http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMC200_300_01.pdf (AMC300 users
                  manual, in german)
                  > http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMCxxx_16.PDF (AMC320 users,
                  german+english)
                  >
                  > give me a fairly clear idea of the pin-outs on the 26-pin
                  > ribbon connector.
                  >
                  > However, on my 1992 force, using AMC300, there is a 10-pin
                  > ribbon cable going in through the firewall, and another
                  > headed toward the motor.
                  >
                  > I haven't traced them down yet, but I'd guess that the 9-pins
                  > through the firewall are mostly fuses. Perhaps the brake-light
                  > relay activator too (I don't reacall that in the 26 main pins)
                  >
                  > The other 10-pins are likely to be motor sensors.
                  >
                  > Does anybody know how to get these pin-outs?
                  > Are they in there, like in the sub-drawings (i don't know german)
                  > Are there other documents floating about to help?
                  >
                  > My car is now dead. I intend to re-wire using beefier cable.
                  > I will try to hand solder cable ends into one of those
                  > ribbon connectors from nice round PVC insulated cables.
                  >
                  > Has anybody been into the Solectria break-out under the dash?
                  > Will I be able to solder into that... or does it use more
                  > ribbon-connectors that I may be wanting to re-build?
                  >
                  > i.e. am I headed for trouble.... should I just put
                  > new ribbon cables inside some plastic sleves like Solectria did?
                  > I might goop them up with silicon sealant in an attempt to make
                  > them a bit more reliable...
                  >
                  > --
                  > Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
                  > Albuquerque, NM |
                  > aaron_at_birenboim.com |
                  > >http://aaron.boim.com |
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