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Problems Converting Force to Brusa AMC320

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  • gjc02000
    Greetigs all: Last Saturday, I connected up my 1992 Solectria Force to a Brusa AMC 320 controller. Nothing happended. In addition to the incoming high voltage
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 2, 2004
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      Greetigs all:

      Last Saturday, I connected up my 1992 Solectria Force to
      a Brusa AMC 320 controller. Nothing happended.

      In addition to the incoming high voltage (144 volts), and the three
      phases of the GT-20 motor, I have the following connectors:

      DBM-9: Motor speed, direction and temperature sensor.
      DBM-15: Communication port (with RS-422 - RS232 adapter)
      DBM-25: Main controller inputs, direction, throttle, etc.
      Four pin Molex: Brake switch and emergency shutoff.

      The ampmeter shows that I am drawing 0.2 amps at 144 volts when I
      turn on the key. The laptop PC indications no communication or
      missing parameter.

      The vehicle shows no interest in moving forward or backward.

      One of the pins on the DMB-25 connector of the Brusa AMC-320 is
      for a malfunction LED. I have a red LED connected to this pin and
      the LED flashes a little faster than once per second. This falshing
      LED lights up as soon as I turn on the ignition key.

      Questions:

      1) Is there any external connection (or misconnection) that will
      cause the Brusa AMC-320 to indicate a mafunction? Or is the problem
      definately in the Brusa AMC-320 controller?

      2) Any hints on what else to check?

      3) Any contacts at Solectria who might offer advice?

      4) Any local (i.e. North America) contacts for Brusa?

      If anyone is interested, I can send schematics of my conversion as
      well as pictures. The original Brusa controller had a 26 pin ribbon
      cable that I adapted to the DBM-25 connector.

      Sincerely
      Gary Carlson
    • Matthew C Childers
      Hi Gary- Can you send me schematics? (in particular, of the AMC interfacing) Are you outside of the voltage range upper limit for an AMC320? (or this one in
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 5, 2004
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        Hi Gary-

        Can you send me schematics?
        (in particular, of the AMC interfacing)

        Are you outside of the voltage range upper limit for an AMC320?
        (or this one in particular?).
        Are you sure you have the interlock (emergency off) taken care of?

        Thanks,

        Craig Childers


        Quoting gjc02000 <gjc0@...>:

        > Greetigs all:
        >
        > Last Saturday, I connected up my 1992 Solectria Force to
        > a Brusa AMC 320 controller. Nothing happended.
        >
        > In addition to the incoming high voltage (144 volts), and the three
        > phases of the GT-20 motor, I have the following connectors:
        >
        > DBM-9: Motor speed, direction and temperature sensor.
        > DBM-15: Communication port (with RS-422 - RS232 adapter)
        > DBM-25: Main controller inputs, direction, throttle, etc.
        > Four pin Molex: Brake switch and emergency shutoff.
        >
        > The ampmeter shows that I am drawing 0.2 amps at 144 volts when I
        > turn on the key. The laptop PC indications no communication or
        > missing parameter.
        >
        > The vehicle shows no interest in moving forward or backward.
        >
        > One of the pins on the DMB-25 connector of the Brusa AMC-320 is
        > for a malfunction LED. I have a red LED connected to this pin and
        > the LED flashes a little faster than once per second. This falshing
        > LED lights up as soon as I turn on the ignition key.
        >
        > Questions:
        >
        > 1) Is there any external connection (or misconnection) that will
        > cause the Brusa AMC-320 to indicate a mafunction? Or is the problem
        > definately in the Brusa AMC-320 controller?
        >
        > 2) Any hints on what else to check?
        >
        > 3) Any contacts at Solectria who might offer advice?
        >
        > 4) Any local (i.e. North America) contacts for Brusa?
        >
        > If anyone is interested, I can send schematics of my conversion as
        > well as pictures. The original Brusa controller had a 26 pin ribbon
        > cable that I adapted to the DBM-25 connector.
        >
        > Sincerely
        > Gary Carlson
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Aaron Birenboim
        My AMC300 stops driving sometimes when I hit a small, sharp bump. Suddenly... no power. I re-boot, and all is well, but its a bit dangerous. Any ideas what
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 6, 2004
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          My AMC300 stops driving sometimes when I hit
          a small, sharp bump. Suddenly... no power.

          I re-boot, and all is well, but its a bit dangerous.

          Any ideas what this might be?
          Is there anything I can do besides just blindly
          replacing wiring in the hopes that its a bad
          contact?
          --
          Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
          Albuquerque, NM |
          aaron_at_birenboim.com |
          >http://aaron.boim.com |
        • gjc02000
          Mr. Childers: (and all other Force enthusiasts) The first pass schmatics for my attempt to connect a Brusa AMC320 controller to a 1992 Solectrica Force are in
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 8, 2004
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            Mr. Childers: (and all other Force enthusiasts)

            The first pass schmatics for my attempt to connect a Brusa AMC320
            controller to a 1992 Solectrica Force are in a separate post in MS
            Word format. My first goal is to attempt to isolate the problem to
            either the Brusa controller or the car and my wiring.

            I also have pictures available.

            Thanks for the help,
            Gary Carlson

            --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Matthew C Childers <childers@d...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi Gary-
            >
            > Can you send me schematics?
            > (in particular, of the AMC interfacing)
            >
            > Are you outside of the voltage range upper limit for an AMC320?
            > (or this one in particular?).
            > Are you sure you have the interlock (emergency off) taken care of?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Craig Childers
            >
            >
            > Quoting gjc02000 <gjc0@a...>:
            >
            > > Greetigs all:
            > >
            > > Last Saturday, I connected up my 1992 Solectria Force to
            > > a Brusa AMC 320 controller. Nothing happended.
            > >
            > > In addition to the incoming high voltage (144 volts), and the
            three
            > > phases of the GT-20 motor, I have the following connectors:
            > >
            > > DBM-9: Motor speed, direction and temperature sensor.
            > > DBM-15: Communication port (with RS-422 - RS232 adapter)
            > > DBM-25: Main controller inputs, direction, throttle, etc.
            > > Four pin Molex: Brake switch and emergency shutoff.
            > >
            > > The ampmeter shows that I am drawing 0.2 amps at 144 volts when I
            > > turn on the key. The laptop PC indications no communication or
            > > missing parameter.
            > >
            > > The vehicle shows no interest in moving forward or backward.
            > >
            > > One of the pins on the DMB-25 connector of the Brusa AMC-320 is
            > > for a malfunction LED. I have a red LED connected to this pin
            and
            > > the LED flashes a little faster than once per second. This
            falshing
            > > LED lights up as soon as I turn on the ignition key.
            > >
            > > Questions:
            > >
            > > 1) Is there any external connection (or misconnection) that will
            > > cause the Brusa AMC-320 to indicate a mafunction? Or is the
            problem
            > > definately in the Brusa AMC-320 controller?
            > >
            > > 2) Any hints on what else to check?
            > >
            > > 3) Any contacts at Solectria who might offer advice?
            > >
            > > 4) Any local (i.e. North America) contacts for Brusa?
            > >
            > > If anyone is interested, I can send schematics of my conversion
            as
            > > well as pictures. The original Brusa controller had a 26 pin
            ribbon
            > > cable that I adapted to the DBM-25 connector.
            > >
            > > Sincerely
            > > Gary Carlson
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • gjc02000
            Aaron Birenboim: A couple questions that might help. 1) Do you know if the 12 volt system (lights, fans, etc.) blink when you hit the bump? Can we isolate
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 8, 2004
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              Aaron Birenboim:

              A couple questions that might help.

              1) Do you know if the 12 volt system (lights, fans, etc.) blink when
              you hit the bump? Can we isolate the problem to the 12 volts system
              or to the high voltage system?

              2) Do you have a high voltage monitor? Does it flicker when you hit
              the bump?

              3) Can you reproduce the problem fairly easily or is it hard to
              repeat?

              4) Can you remove the drive belt, or jack up the car to make it
              safe, and then wiggle connections while the car thinks it is moving?

              5) Instead of replacing connectors, can you simply unplug, inspect,
              clean and re-install them. Is there a contact cleaner you can use
              with a toothbrush?

              6) If the controller is out of waranty, are you willing to remove
              it, make it safe and check for internal problems? Maybe the the
              contact is weak as you suggested. In any case a high current
              connection that is weak is an invitation for a fire. Are there any
              signs of heating where there shouldn't be?

              7) I peaked inside an older controller once and saw that it is a
              promiscuous collection of low voltage analog and high-current high
              voltage semiconductors. Some of the low voltage stuff was in
              sockets! If you are willing to open up the controller (last resort)
              consider one-by-one, removing chips from sockets, cleaning and
              reseating them.

              I am just thinking out loud,
              Good Luck,
              Gary Carlson


              --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Birenboim <aaron@b...> wrote:
              > My AMC300 stops driving sometimes when I hit
              > a small, sharp bump. Suddenly... no power.
              >
              > I re-boot, and all is well, but its a bit dangerous.
              >
              > Any ideas what this might be?
              > Is there anything I can do besides just blindly
              > replacing wiring in the hopes that its a bad
              > contact?
              > --
              > Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
              > Albuquerque, NM |
              > aaron_at_birenboim.com |
              > >http://aaron.boim.com |
            • Aaron Birenboim
              ... I hadn t noticed, but its dead now, so its harder to test. ... Similarly, I wasn t watching the analog voltmeter, end even so... It might not show up on
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 9, 2004
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                gjc02000 wrote:
                > Aaron Birenboim:
                >
                > A couple questions that might help.
                >
                > 1) Do you know if the 12 volt system (lights, fans, etc.) blink when
                > you hit the bump? Can we isolate the problem to the 12 volts system
                > or to the high voltage system?

                I hadn't noticed, but its dead now, so its harder to test.


                > 2) Do you have a high voltage monitor? Does it flicker when you hit
                > the bump?

                Similarly, I wasn't watching the analog voltmeter,
                end even so... It might not show up on the analog display.


                > 3) Can you reproduce the problem fairly easily or is it hard to
                > repeat?

                It was fairly hard. Some large bumps... no problem.
                Some man-hole covers... and poof!


                > 4) Can you remove the drive belt, or jack up the car to make it
                > safe, and then wiggle connections while the car thinks it is moving?

                I can try that if I can get it running again.


                > 5) Instead of replacing connectors, can you simply unplug, inspect,
                > clean and re-install them. Is there a contact cleaner you can use
                > with a toothbrush?

                thats what I was doing when it died.
                My guess is that the extra jostling was enough to
                break the weak connection.

                > 6) If the controller is out of waranty, are you willing to remove
                > it, make it safe and check for internal problems? Maybe the the
                > contact is weak as you suggested. In any case a high current
                > connection that is weak is an invitation for a fire. Are there any
                > signs of heating where there shouldn't be?

                No. It definately seemed more like a u-controller shutdown type
                of situation. Like some sensor was triggered on a bump
                for a soft shut-down. It looks like there is a safety
                feature on the inverter where it will not allow transition
                from "off" to "forward" when the car is in motion.
                When it was semi-working... I'd be able to stop the car.
                flip from off to forward, and take off like normal.

                > 7) I peaked inside an older controller once and saw that it is a
                > promiscuous collection of low voltage analog and high-current high
                > voltage semiconductors. Some of the low voltage stuff was in
                > sockets! If you are willing to open up the controller (last resort)
                > consider one-by-one, removing chips from sockets, cleaning and
                > reseating them.

                Since this controller is wired with little computer ribon cables,
                likely to be 12 years old, it seems to me like re-wiring with
                something tougher is in order. Would space-qualified like
                teflon cable put me in the poor house?
                Any suggestions about where to get cable and IDE/Serial connectors
                that are a little more robust than typical internal-case wiring?

                For those of you who have been inside an AMC300...
                Will it be reasonable to change the connector from the 2-row pin
                type to sub-D? I know I can get solder-type (not pinch) D connectors.

                --
                Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
                Albuquerque, NM |
                aaron_at_birenboim.com |
                >http://aaron.boim.com |
              • Aaron Birenboim
                The two manuals I have: http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMC200_300_01.pdf (AMC300 users manual, in german) http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMCxxx_16.PDF (AMC320
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 15, 2004
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                  The two manuals I have:

                  http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMC200_300_01.pdf (AMC300 users manual, in german)
                  http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMCxxx_16.PDF (AMC320 users, german+english)

                  give me a fairly clear idea of the pin-outs on the 26-pin
                  ribbon connector.

                  However, on my 1992 force, using AMC300, there is a 10-pin
                  ribbon cable going in through the firewall, and another
                  headed toward the motor.

                  I haven't traced them down yet, but I'd guess that the 9-pins
                  through the firewall are mostly fuses. Perhaps the brake-light
                  relay activator too (I don't reacall that in the 26 main pins)

                  The other 10-pins are likely to be motor sensors.

                  Does anybody know how to get these pin-outs?
                  Are they in there, like in the sub-drawings (i don't know german)
                  Are there other documents floating about to help?

                  My car is now dead. I intend to re-wire using beefier cable.
                  I will try to hand solder cable ends into one of those
                  ribbon connectors from nice round PVC insulated cables.

                  Has anybody been into the Solectria break-out under the dash?
                  Will I be able to solder into that... or does it use more
                  ribbon-connectors that I may be wanting to re-build?

                  i.e. am I headed for trouble.... should I just put
                  new ribbon cables inside some plastic sleves like Solectria did?
                  I might goop them up with silicon sealant in an attempt to make
                  them a bit more reliable...

                  --
                  Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
                  Albuquerque, NM |
                  aaron_at_birenboim.com |
                  >http://aaron.boim.com |
                • gjc02000
                  Aaron: The 10 pin connector to the motor carries tachometer information and themperature information. The AMC320 has the same signals ending in the DBM-9
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 17, 2004
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                    Aaron:

                    The 10 pin connector to the motor carries tachometer information and
                    themperature information. The AMC320 has the same signals ending in
                    the DBM-9 connector instead of the 10 pin ribbon connector. I do
                    not have the schematic of the tachometer PCA or cable, but would be
                    interested in one if someone has it.

                    I believe the cables now in use in your Solectria Force have worked
                    for 10+ years. I would not rush out to rewire anything. I would
                    replace bad connectors and clean everything else. If you can get
                    another 10+ years, that should be pretty good.

                    Watch out when using silicones or other sealants with electrical
                    circuitry. Some sealing compounds outgas a corrosive gas when
                    curing (smells like vinegar). Check with your local electronics
                    store for RTV (don't ask me what it stands for) sealants which are
                    compatible with electronics circuits.

                    I am currently attempting to convert my 1992 Solectric Force to an
                    AMC320. I work on it when I can steal the time. Right now all is
                    connected, but nothing works. I may end up reverse engineering that
                    tachometer PCA and developing a schematic and pin-out for the
                    connector. Given my current schedule, I don't expect it to happen
                    soon. When it does get done, I would like to make a simple test box
                    to plug into the 9 pin or 10 pin connector that tests out the
                    tachometer.

                    Sincerely,
                    Gary Carlson

                    --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Birenboim <aaron@b...> wrote:
                    > The two manuals I have:
                    >
                    > http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMC200_300_01.pdf (AMC300 users
                    manual, in german)
                    > http://aaron.boim.com/EV/AMCxxx_16.PDF (AMC320 users,
                    german+english)
                    >
                    > give me a fairly clear idea of the pin-outs on the 26-pin
                    > ribbon connector.
                    >
                    > However, on my 1992 force, using AMC300, there is a 10-pin
                    > ribbon cable going in through the firewall, and another
                    > headed toward the motor.
                    >
                    > I haven't traced them down yet, but I'd guess that the 9-pins
                    > through the firewall are mostly fuses. Perhaps the brake-light
                    > relay activator too (I don't reacall that in the 26 main pins)
                    >
                    > The other 10-pins are likely to be motor sensors.
                    >
                    > Does anybody know how to get these pin-outs?
                    > Are they in there, like in the sub-drawings (i don't know german)
                    > Are there other documents floating about to help?
                    >
                    > My car is now dead. I intend to re-wire using beefier cable.
                    > I will try to hand solder cable ends into one of those
                    > ribbon connectors from nice round PVC insulated cables.
                    >
                    > Has anybody been into the Solectria break-out under the dash?
                    > Will I be able to solder into that... or does it use more
                    > ribbon-connectors that I may be wanting to re-build?
                    >
                    > i.e. am I headed for trouble.... should I just put
                    > new ribbon cables inside some plastic sleves like Solectria did?
                    > I might goop them up with silicon sealant in an attempt to make
                    > them a bit more reliable...
                    >
                    > --
                    > Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
                    > Albuquerque, NM |
                    > aaron_at_birenboim.com |
                    > >http://aaron.boim.com |
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