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Max pack Voltage questions

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  • mtoussaint17799
    HI, For my 97 Solectria project, I bought 60 CALB SE 100AH liquidation sales at EVTV. They are from 2011 and are actually 95 to 103 AH. How many of these cells
    Message 1 of 16 , May 23, 2014
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      HI,

      For my 97 Solectria project, I bought 60 CALB SE 100AH liquidation sales at EVTV. They are from 2011 and are actually 95 to 103 AH. How many of these cells is the maximum for the Solectria ?
      56 ? 58 or will the whole 60 work fine ?
      Fully charged, these cells are 3.35V , so the pack will be at 201 Volts. Just after charging it will be at 213 and will drop down to 201 Volts

      Now what parameters will I have to change in the controller in order to make sure the regen works properly ?

      Thanks !

      Michel


    • Wolf
      I just reprogramed an AMC325 for 56 cells: http://www.wolftronix.com/amc325_1440/images/IMG_4413.jpg I set it to the following, assuming 2.4V absolute min and
      Message 2 of 16 , May 23, 2014
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        I just reprogramed an AMC325 for 56 cells:

        http://www.wolftronix.com/amc325_1440/images/IMG_4413.jpg

        I set it to the following, assuming 2.4V absolute min and 4.2V absolute max:

        Low voltage cutoff: 150V = 2.678V per cell.

        Low voltage warning: 175V = 3.125V per cell.

        High voltage warning: 200V = 3.571V per cell.

        High voltage cutoff: 225V = 4.017V per cell.

        Any feedback from the battery experts? I still have the drive and I can reprogram the limits. :)

        On May 23, 2014 6:08 PM, "mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        HI,

        For my 97 Solectria project, I bought 60 CALB SE 100AH liquidation sales at EVTV. They are from 2011 and are actually 95 to 103 AH. How many of these cells is the maximum for the Solectria ?
        56 ? 58 or will the whole 60 work fine ?
        Fully charged, these cells are 3.35V , so the pack will be at 201 Volts. Just after charging it will be at 213 and will drop down to 201 Volts

        Now what parameters will I have to change in the controller in order to make sure the regen works properly ?

        Thanks !

        Michel


      • paul dove
        LiFEPO4 cells shouldn t go over 3.65V while charging. Not sure what chemistry you are using. I ________________________________ From: Wolf wolf@wolftronix.com
        Message 3 of 16 , May 23, 2014
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          LiFEPO4 cells shouldn't go over 3.65V while charging.

          Not sure what chemistry you are using.


          I




          From: "Wolf wolf@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 7:08 PM
          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Max pack Voltage questions

           
          I just reprogramed an AMC325 for 56 cells:
          I set it to the following, assuming 2.4V absolute min and 4.2V absolute max:
          Low voltage cutoff: 150V = 2.678V per cell.
          Low voltage warning: 175V = 3.125V per cell.
          High voltage warning: 200V = 3.571V per cell.
          High voltage cutoff: 225V = 4.017V per cell.
          Any feedback from the battery experts? I still have the drive and I can reprogram the limits. :)
          On May 23, 2014 6:08 PM, "mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           
          HI,

          For my 97 Solectria project, I bought 60 CALB SE 100AH liquidation sales at EVTV. They are from 2011 and are actually 95 to 103 AH. How many of these cells is the maximum for the Solectria ?
          56 ? 58 or will the whole 60 work fine ?
          Fully charged, these cells are 3.35V , so the pack will be at 201 Volts. Just after charging it will be at 213 and will drop down to 201 Volts

          Now what parameters will I have to change in the controller in order to make sure the regen works properly ?

          Thanks !

          Michel




        • mtoussaint17799
          As stated by Paul, Lithium Iron Phosphate should not be charged above 3.65V even if some chemistries state 4.02V... (Lithium Yttrium Iron such as the Winston,
          Message 4 of 16 , May 24, 2014
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            As stated by Paul, Lithium Iron Phosphate should not be charged above 3.65V even if some chemistries state 4.02V... (Lithium Yttrium Iron such as the Winston, Voltronix). There is so little energy to gain between 3.65 and 4V. Just don't !

            Max battery charging current is a bit low for LFP: 1C should be fine.

            Low battery Voltage: How does the controller behave with this parameters. In the winter, if you didn't have the chance to heat the battery and it is like (-20 degree Celcius), the Voltage will sag way down 2.4V. At normal temperature and at zero current, cut-off should be 2.5V
          • Paul Dove
            The electrolyte starts to boil at 3.7 volts. Which in turn cause SEI plating and dendrite growth along with loss of usable Lithium Ions and thus capacity. Sent
            Message 5 of 16 , May 24, 2014
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              The electrolyte starts to boil at 3.7 volts. Which in turn cause SEI plating and dendrite growth along with loss of usable Lithium Ions and thus capacity.

              Sent from my iPad

              On May 24, 2014, at 7:13 AM, "mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              As stated by Paul, Lithium Iron Phosphate should not be charged above 3.65V even if some chemistries state 4.02V... (Lithium Yttrium Iron such as the Winston, Voltronix). There is so little energy to gain between 3.65 and 4V. Just don't !

              Max battery charging current is a bit low for LFP: 1C should be fine.

              Low battery Voltage: How does the controller behave with this parameters. In the winter, if you didn't have the chance to heat the battery and it is like (-20 degree Celcius), the Voltage will sag way down 2.4V. At normal temperature and at zero current, cut-off should be 2.5V

            • Michel Toussaint
              Hi Paul, Where did you get those informations ? I never heard anything about electrolyte boiling being related to Voltage. SEI plating and dendrite growth, we
              Message 6 of 16 , May 24, 2014
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                Hi Paul,

                Where did you get those informations ?
                I never heard anything about electrolyte boiling being related to Voltage.
                SEI plating and dendrite growth, we do know this in sub-zero charging condition, are there studies showing this in over-voltage conditions ?

                Thanks,

                Michel







                On Saturday, May 24, 2014 8:48 AM, "Paul Dove dovepa@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                 
                The electrolyte starts to boil at 3.7 volts. Which in turn cause SEI plating and dendrite growth along with loss of usable Lithium Ions and thus capacity.

                Sent from my iPad

                On May 24, 2014, at 7:13 AM, "mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                 
                As stated by Paul, Lithium Iron Phosphate should not be charged above 3.65V even if some chemistries state 4.02V... (Lithium Yttrium Iron such as the Winston, Voltronix). There is so little energy to gain between 3.65 and 4V. Just don't !

                Max battery charging current is a bit low for LFP: 1C should be fine.

                Low battery Voltage: How does the controller behave with this parameters. In the winter, if you didn't have the chance to heat the battery and it is like (-20 degree Celcius), the Voltage will sag way down 2.4V. At normal temperature and at zero current, cut-off should be 2.5V


              • Paul Dove
                I don t have it with me right now but yes, I was citing a study. And plating happens with every charge and discharge but certain condition like over voltage or
                Message 7 of 16 , May 24, 2014
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                  I don't have it with me right now but yes, I was citing a study. And plating happens with every charge and discharge but certain condition like over voltage or under voltage accelerate this if I am remembering correctly. No one completely understands this IMO but the 3.7 has been demonstrated in testing.  The paper also said that Loss  of electrolyte was the underlying cause of all Li Ion battery failures.

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On May 24, 2014, at 8:08 AM, "Michel Toussaint mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                   

                  Hi Paul,

                  Where did you get those informations ?
                  I never heard anything about electrolyte boiling being related to Voltage.
                  SEI plating and dendrite growth, we do know this in sub-zero charging condition, are there studies showing this in over-voltage conditions ?

                  Thanks,

                  Michel







                  On Saturday, May 24, 2014 8:48 AM, "Paul Dove dovepa@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                   
                  The electrolyte starts to boil at 3.7 volts. Which in turn cause SEI plating and dendrite growth along with loss of usable Lithium Ions and thus capacity.

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On May 24, 2014, at 7:13 AM, "mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                   
                  As stated by Paul, Lithium Iron Phosphate should not be charged above 3.65V even if some chemistries state 4.02V... (Lithium Yttrium Iron such as the Winston, Voltronix). There is so little energy to gain between 3.65 and 4V. Just don't !

                  Max battery charging current is a bit low for LFP: 1C should be fine.

                  Low battery Voltage: How does the controller behave with this parameters. In the winter, if you didn't have the chance to heat the battery and it is like (-20 degree Celcius), the Voltage will sag way down 2.4V. At normal temperature and at zero current, cut-off should be 2.5V


                • Paul Dove
                  http://vtb.engr.sc.edu/vtbwebsite/downloads/publications/capacityfade_jpspaper2.pdf Here s the paper about capacity fade. It has the information about over
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 24, 2014
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                    Here's the paper about capacity fade. It has the information about over voltage and electrolyte breakdown.

                    Sent from my iPad

                    On May 24, 2014, at 8:08 AM, "Michel Toussaint mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                     

                    Hi Paul,

                    Where did you get those informations ?
                    I never heard anything about electrolyte boiling being related to Voltage.
                    SEI plating and dendrite growth, we do know this in sub-zero charging condition, are there studies showing this in over-voltage conditions ?

                    Thanks,

                    Michel







                    On Saturday, May 24, 2014 8:48 AM, "Paul Dove dovepa@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                     
                    The electrolyte starts to boil at 3.7 volts. Which in turn cause SEI plating and dendrite growth along with loss of usable Lithium Ions and thus capacity.

                    Sent from my iPad

                    On May 24, 2014, at 7:13 AM, "mtoussaint17799@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                     
                    As stated by Paul, Lithium Iron Phosphate should not be charged above 3.65V even if some chemistries state 4.02V... (Lithium Yttrium Iron such as the Winston, Voltronix). There is so little energy to gain between 3.65 and 4V. Just don't !

                    Max battery charging current is a bit low for LFP: 1C should be fine.

                    Low battery Voltage: How does the controller behave with this parameters. In the winter, if you didn't have the chance to heat the battery and it is like (-20 degree Celcius), the Voltage will sag way down 2.4V. At normal temperature and at zero current, cut-off should be 2.5V


                  • geo_homsy2
                    Hi Michel- I run 56x CALB-100SE. I charge to only 3.4V, NOT 3.6. I had to reprogram the max operating voltage on the controller to get it to not complain and
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 26, 2014
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                      Hi Michel-

                      I run 56x CALB-100SE.  I charge to only 3.4V, NOT 3.6.  

                      I had to reprogram the max operating voltage on the controller to get it to not complain and squeal on regeneration into a charged pack.  Important for me, because I live at the top of a 1/4 mile hill, so my first battery load on a fresh charge is always a little more charge...

                      I can probably dig up my AMC profile if you want it for reference.

                      Note: It's pretty finicky, trying to get the RS422/RS485 to connect on the AMC.  It's quite particular about what kind of level converter you have, and about power on sequence and synchronization.  I had to try a zillion times before I got it to work.

                      //Geo
                    • Wolf
                      I am interested in the 56 cell AMC profile too. I can get the AMC.EXE program to work 100% of the time, but only with my ASUS G1 laptop... The MONLOG.EXE
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 26, 2014
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                        I am interested in the 56 cell AMC profile too.

                        I can get the AMC.EXE program to work 100% of the time, but only with my ASUS G1 laptop...

                        The MONLOG.EXE program works on any laptop I have.

                        Both setups are using the same Prolific USB to serial adapter and the RS232 to RS485 adapter I made long ago.

                        On May 26, 2014 3:44 AM, "geo.homsy@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                         

                        Hi Michel-


                        I run 56x CALB-100SE.  I charge to only 3.4V, NOT 3.6.  

                        I had to reprogram the max operating voltage on the controller to get it to not complain and squeal on regeneration into a charged pack.  Important for me, because I live at the top of a 1/4 mile hill, so my first battery load on a fresh charge is always a little more charge...

                        I can probably dig up my AMC profile if you want it for reference.

                        Note: It's pretty finicky, trying to get the RS422/RS485 to connect on the AMC.  It's quite particular about what kind of level converter you have, and about power on sequence and synchronization.  I had to try a zillion times before I got it to work.

                        //Geo
                      • ev_in_la
                        Geo, I am using the Lithiumate Lite for my 52 CALB CA100 and the Elcon charger reprogrammed to their algorithm 520a. Do you just go to the Configure page,
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 27, 2014
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                          Geo,

                          I am using the Lithiumate Lite for my 52 CALB CA100 and the Elcon charger reprogrammed to their algorithm 520a.  Do you just go to the 'Configure' page, 'Advanced settings' in the Lithiumate GUI and change the 'Vcell-max' box to 3.4 from the default 3.6?  Do you change 'Vcell-high', Vpack-max, Vpack-high or 'Cell voltage' in the 'Balancing' box, or anything else?  I am not planning to change the motor controller.


                          Thanks,


                          Michael Conn

                        • geo_homsy2
                          Hi Michael- I think you ll get away with 52 cells without reprogramming the max controller voltage. Especially if you don t live at the top of a steep little
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 27, 2014
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                            Hi Michael-

                            I think you'll get away with 52 cells without reprogramming the max controller voltage.  Especially if you don't live at the top of a steep little hill, like I do.

                            As for the lithiumate lite, PLEASE give me a call if you have any trouble with that thing; I could save you hours and hours.  While it's a good system, and pretty much does what it should do, the guy who makes it is not, well, let's say "not the best person for excellent customer service".  I had some trouble with a defective cell board, and he basically wouldn't take responsibility for it.  I had to reverse engineer the cell board myself, and then get an o'scope on the data line to figure out what the hell was going wrong.  When I brought it up to him, all he said was "congratulations! you figured it out!".  He also trolls this group, by the way, so I fully expect to get an ear-full from him about this post  :)

                            Anyway, my number is four one five, five seven one, nine nine three three.

                            To configure the lithiumate -- most of the magic is in the advanced config screen. 
                             
                            * Vcell-high and Vcell-max are for warnings and faults; NOT for balancing.  I changed "balancing - cell voltage", and a bunch of other stuff by the time I got it dialed in. I dialed Vcell-high down to slightly above the balance cut-in voltage, and slightly below the charger float voltage, to avoid nuisance warnings during charge.

                            * You will also want to set your continuous discharge warning rate up from the default value, otherwise you will continually get discharge warnings, throttle cutbacks (you're wiring yours up, I think, right?  I did not), and potentially faults if you discharge faster than 80A continuous.  Note that the AMC325 will pull 120A continuous in "normal" drive mode, as long as its heatsink is happy.

                            * Note that Menu-->view-->terminal is absolutely one of the most useful features in the GUI program.  The times I did get customer service from them, they logged into my machine remotely and used the "terminal" feature to view the event log and reset "sticky" faults.  

                            I will put my configuration files in the "files" section on this forum.

                            The USB serial protocol is fairly well documented in the lithiumate lite manual.  If you're down for it, I would love to team up on an Android App for lithiumate monitoring.  You can get an Android box with all the stereo (amp / receiver / wifi / bluetooth / etc) built in, and a touchscreen on the front, that drops right into the double-DIN cutout in the Force, for UNDER $300!  If it had a battery monitoring program, life would be peachy...

                            What I did in the meanwhile, is built a little piece of custom bar graph hardware that fits in a single DIN slot, above my stereo.  I programmed it to display bar graphs of SOC and pack current.  It also has flashing indicators for warning and fault.

                            Go to the "files" section and search for elithion or lithiumate.  I haven't decided on the folder name yet...  ;)

                            Lemme know how it goes.

                            //Geo

                            BTW, I'm pushing on up to almost 20000 miles on my CALB SE100 pack, with the lithiumate.  Since getting past the poor hardware design on the 12 volt enable outputs, and getting past the infant mortality problems in the first couple weeks on that defective cell board, I haven't had any other problems.  It's been running rock solid for more than a year now.

                          • Wolf
                            Hey, Geo Can you e-mail the AMC profiles you up loaded? I don t have access to the Yahoo file archives. Thanks. On May 28, 2014 1:26 AM, geo.homsy@gmail.com
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 28, 2014
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                              Hey, Geo

                              Can you e-mail the AMC profiles you up loaded?

                              I don't have access to the Yahoo file  archives.

                              Thanks.

                              On May 28, 2014 1:26 AM, "geo.homsy@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                               

                              Hi Michael-


                              I think you'll get away with 52 cells without reprogramming the max controller voltage.  Especially if you don't live at the top of a steep little hill, like I do.

                              As for the lithiumate lite, PLEASE give me a call if you have any trouble with that thing; I could save you hours and hours.  While it's a good system, and pretty much does what it should do, the guy who makes it is not, well, let's say "not the best person for excellent customer service".  I had some trouble with a defective cell board, and he basically wouldn't take responsibility for it.  I had to reverse engineer the cell board myself, and then get an o'scope on the data line to figure out what the hell was going wrong.  When I brought it up to him, all he said was "congratulations! you figured it out!".  He also trolls this group, by the way, so I fully expect to get an ear-full from him about this post  :)

                              Anyway, my number is four one five, five seven one, nine nine three three.

                              To configure the lithiumate -- most of the magic is in the advanced config screen. 
                               
                              * Vcell-high and Vcell-max are for warnings and faults; NOT for balancing.  I changed "balancing - cell voltage", and a bunch of other stuff by the time I got it dialed in. I dialed Vcell-high down to slightly above the balance cut-in voltage, and slightly below the charger float voltage, to avoid nuisance warnings during charge.

                              * You will also want to set your continuous discharge warning rate up from the default value, otherwise you will continually get discharge warnings, throttle cutbacks (you're wiring yours up, I think, right?  I did not), and potentially faults if you discharge faster than 80A continuous.  Note that the AMC325 will pull 120A continuous in "normal" drive mode, as long as its heatsink is happy.

                              * Note that Menu-->view-->terminal is absolutely one of the most useful features in the GUI program.  The times I did get customer service from them, they logged into my machine remotely and used the "terminal" feature to view the event log and reset "sticky" faults.  

                              I will put my configuration files in the "files" section on this forum.

                              The USB serial protocol is fairly well documented in the lithiumate lite manual.  If you're down for it, I would love to team up on an Android App for lithiumate monitoring.  You can get an Android box with all the stereo (amp / receiver / wifi / bluetooth / etc) built in, and a touchscreen on the front, that drops right into the double-DIN cutout in the Force, for UNDER $300!  If it had a battery monitoring program, life would be peachy...

                              What I did in the meanwhile, is built a little piece of custom bar graph hardware that fits in a single DIN slot, above my stereo.  I programmed it to display bar graphs of SOC and pack current.  It also has flashing indicators for warning and fault.

                              Go to the "files" section and search for elithion or lithiumate.  I haven't decided on the folder name yet...  ;)

                              Lemme know how it goes.

                              //Geo

                              BTW, I'm pushing on up to almost 20000 miles on my CALB SE100 pack, with the lithiumate.  Since getting past the poor hardware design on the 12 volt enable outputs, and getting past the infant mortality problems in the first couple weeks on that defective cell board, I haven't had any other problems.  It's been running rock solid for more than a year now.

                            • geo_homsy2
                              Hi Michael- I forgot to mention - I loaded in more cells (56) so I could get good pack voltage WITHOUT topping up the batteries to 100% SOC. I ve heard from
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 28, 2014
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                                Hi Michael-

                                I forgot to mention - I loaded in more cells (56) so I could get good pack voltage WITHOUT topping up the batteries to 100% SOC.  I've heard from many people on here that will improve the lifetime dramatically.

                                It's a rather fine line to walk, though, with a top balancing BMS, because the charge curve is VERY flat up to about 3.2 or 3.3 volts.  So if you try to balance at too low a voltage that's on the flat spot on the charge curve, you get a really crappy balance (due to the high slope of SOC vs terminal voltage, and also due to the slight differences in cell OC voltages).

                                That's why I had the balancing cut in at 3.3 volts, and stopped charge at 3.4 volts.  The theory is, in this way, they will balance NOT to the top of the charge curve, but to the inflection point where the charge curve changes from flat to steep.

                                So far, my strategy seems to be working.  As I said, I've put 20000 miles on the pack, and it's running perfectly.  The cells balance to within 10 or 20 mV.  I haven't done a depth-of-discharge test -- I've only taken them down to about -50 Ah from "full".  My guess, based on the charge curve in the datasheet, is that they should do about 80-ish Ah from the 3.4 volt point.

                                //G
                              • geo_homsy2
                                Hi Wolf- just catching up on the group. Did I email you my AMC profiles? //Geo
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 8 12:44 PM
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                                  Hi Wolf-

                                  just catching up on the group.

                                  Did I email you my AMC profiles?

                                  //Geo
                                • Wolf
                                  Yup, thanks. On Aug 8, 2014 2:44 PM, geo.homsy@gmail.com [solectria_ev]
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Aug 8 12:50 PM
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                                    Yup, thanks.

                                    On Aug 8, 2014 2:44 PM, "geo.homsy@... [solectria_ev]" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                     

                                    Hi Wolf-


                                    just catching up on the group.

                                    Did I email you my AMC profiles?

                                    //Geo
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