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Re: [solectria_ev] RE: Elcon/TCCH Charger

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  • Newton Hausermann
    I have no idea if it s the same relay but my friends elcon died on them i believe it s a 2000w unit and they pulled it apart and found i think it was a fuse
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 24, 2013
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      I have no idea if it's the same relay but my friends elcon died on them i believe it's a 2000w unit and they pulled it apart and found i think it was a fuse was blown but the relay was rated to like 25v and it should be like 150 for their use. I'm not totally sure where and i can't find the conversation but there was an under-rated relay in the mix. 


      On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 2:21 PM, <kwhouse_56@...> wrote:
       

      Here's some fun facts for ya:  The power cord into the 1.5kw TCCH chargers connects to the main board at three terminals, G for ground, L for line, and N for neutral.  The green earth ground wire is connected to G, but the white neutral wire is connected to the L terminal, and the black line wire is connected to the N terminal...what's up with that mess?  Schematic is nearly done for the analog board, just getting started on the digical...


      The low voltage power supply does have a shutdown feature at 170C with restart at 130C, but the input start relay looks underrated for the current it passes and is overheating and causing a thermal runaway situation.



      ---In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, <wolf@...> wrote:

      I don't know if I am a good engineer, (I guess that is for others to judge), but I do try and design is as much protection as possible, because people do make mistakes.

      My Solectria to DMOC Adapter has a fuse, reverse battery protection schottky diode, and a tranzorb (to protect the diode).

      Every user input and output is current limited, ESD protected, EMC protected, EMI protected, filtered and optically isolated.

      The micro has one external clock, and two internal clocks, configured in triple redundant clock switch failsafe with watch dog timers. Even if the micro was to lock up in such a way that the watchdog could not recover it, since all the isolated power supplies are generated by the micro, they would decay and shut down all the outputs and open all the relays.

      The board is designed with 1000V (isolation transformer is only rated for 600V RMS, so it is the limiting factor) creepage distance between the micro, user interface, and DMOC interface. Just incase something gets wired wrong or something was to fail in the DMOC and expose the adapter it to pack voltage the user would be safe.

      I won't mention all the numerous safety features in the firmware and software. ;)

      Since the Solectria to DMOC Adapter is what actually commands the vehicle to move the stakes are much higher than a battery charger. ;)

      On Sep 12, 2013 7:52 AM, "Collin Kidder" <collink@...> wrote:
       
      Yes, a good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product. But, people are *cheapskates*. The more safety and protection you engineer in the more expensive the product. Unfortunately sometimes people act like sugared up preschoolers with scissors and break something. As a design engineer you want to prevent this but it can become dizzying the # of creative ways people think up to break your product. So, you can't prevent everything. However, the problem with Manzanita chargers where they break if there is no load is stupid. That is a common condition that a charger should be able to accept. Another thing I had was that I once hooked up a DC/DC converter wrong. There is no excuse for not putting an 80 cent diode in line with the converter input. I blew up an $1800 converter just by mixing up the colors for the power input. There is no excuse for that. But, it is too tempting to break something and then feel that the engineer should have known you'd try to break it like that. They can't protect you from yourself in every single circumstance. At some point a product has to be shipped at a reasonable price.


      On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Paul Guzyk <guzyk@...> wrote:
       
      I realize we use the Elcons in a way that is not ideal.   I'm still disappointed in their engineering.   For an extra few dollars per unit they could have saved purchasers the frustration we've gone through.  

      It reminds me of the Manzanita chargers I used in the past, if you accidentally turn them on without a load connected it breaks the charger.  What kind of engineer would come up with that design?   That's just bad engineering IMHO.   A good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product and incorporates appropriate safeguards.   


    • Rex Allison
      Hi all, I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 26, 2013
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        Hi all,

        I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

        I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

        Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

        My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

        Any ideas?



      • Wolf
        I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor). Also, one thing
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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          I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

          Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

          Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

          But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

          On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
           

          Hi all,

          I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

          I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

          Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

          My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

          Any ideas?



        • William Swann
          I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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            I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

            On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:
             

            I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

            Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

            Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

            But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

            On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
             

            Hi all,

            I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

            I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

            Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

            My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

            Any ideas?





            --
            Thanks, Bill S
            Ph 832-338-3080
            www.watt-tracker.com
            www.promotingevs.com

          • Wolf
            Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial. The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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              Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial.

              The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a tendency to push the shaft in and out under accel and deaccel.

              How many miles do you have on the E10?

              The motor bearings are supposed to be changed out around 50,000 miles.

              Since it only happens while coasting I would bet it is a motor bearing. You could test it by taking the belts off and just spin the motors by them self and see if the vibration is there.

              I have a neat 1Hz whump-whump sound at highway speed and it took me a while to figure out that it is the differential, I can change the frequency of the noise with tire pressure, or when driving around a curve.

              My E10 sat for many years before I got it, an I think what ever part of the differential was not in the oil has corroded and when things line up it makes a whump noise.

              On Sep 30, 2013 10:48 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
               

              I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

              On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:

               

              I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

              Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

              Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

              But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

              On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
               

              Hi all,

              I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

              I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

              Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

              My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

              Any ideas?





              --
              Thanks, Bill S
              Ph 832-338-3080
              www.watt-tracker.com
              www.promotingevs.com

            • William Swann
              The odo says 8300 miles. I will take the belts off and see if I can detect any play. I have run on one motor or the other, and it seems OK. The vibration is
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                   The odo says 8300 miles. I will take the belts off and see if I can detect any play. I have run on one motor or the other, and it seems OK. The vibration is bad enough that you do not want to coast at all. Either accelerate or decelerate. I acquired 3 of these trucks, and was not as careful as I should have been in keeping the correct controller in the correct truck. Could it be that settings for the controller do not match?
                   The way I look at it, is that the culprit is a mechanical problem, or a controller problem, or an ignition box problem. Later on this week I will put 2 known good controllers in this truck and see of the problem dis-appears. I suppose I could do the same with 2 ignition boxes. And even switch out 2 motors. Will advise.


                On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                 

                Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial.

                The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a tendency to push the shaft in and out under accel and deaccel.

                How many miles do you have on the E10?

                The motor bearings are supposed to be changed out around 50,000 miles.

                Since it only happens while coasting I would bet it is a motor bearing. You could test it by taking the belts off and just spin the motors by them self and see if the vibration is there.

                I have a neat 1Hz whump-whump sound at highway speed and it took me a while to figure out that it is the differential, I can change the frequency of the noise with tire pressure, or when driving around a curve.

                My E10 sat for many years before I got it, an I think what ever part of the differential was not in the oil has corroded and when things line up it makes a whump noise.

                On Sep 30, 2013 10:48 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
                 

                I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

                On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:
                 

                I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

                Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

                Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

                But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

                On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                 

                Hi all,

                I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                Any ideas?








                --
                Thanks, Bill S
                Ph 832-338-3080
                www.watt-tracker.com
                www.promotingevs.com
              • Wolf
                It could also be a bad universal joint, check the play in it by hand. With the parking brake set, and the bed lifted, can you spin the motor side back and
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                  It could also be a bad universal joint, check the play in it by hand.

                  With the parking brake set, and the bed lifted, can you spin the motor side back and fourth?

                  I doubt it would be electrical, or controller related. Since when coasting no current is sent to the motor.

                  On Sep 30, 2013 11:51 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
                   

                     The odo says 8300 miles. I will take the belts off and see if I can detect any play. I have run on one motor or the other, and it seems OK. The vibration is bad enough that you do not want to coast at all. Either accelerate or decelerate. I acquired 3 of these trucks, and was not as careful as I should have been in keeping the correct controller in the correct truck. Could it be that settings for the controller do not match?
                     The way I look at it, is that the culprit is a mechanical problem, or a controller problem, or an ignition box problem. Later on this week I will put 2 known good controllers in this truck and see of the problem dis-appears. I suppose I could do the same with 2 ignition boxes. And even switch out 2 motors. Will advise.


                  On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                   

                  Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial.

                  The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a tendency to push the shaft in and out under accel and deaccel.

                  How many miles do you have on the E10?

                  The motor bearings are supposed to be changed out around 50,000 miles.

                  Since it only happens while coasting I would bet it is a motor bearing. You could test it by taking the belts off and just spin the motors by them self and see if the vibration is there.

                  I have a neat 1Hz whump-whump sound at highway speed and it took me a while to figure out that it is the differential, I can change the frequency of the noise with tire pressure, or when driving around a curve.

                  My E10 sat for many years before I got it, an I think what ever part of the differential was not in the oil has corroded and when things line up it makes a whump noise.

                  On Sep 30, 2013 10:48 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
                   

                  I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

                  On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:
                   

                  I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

                  Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

                  Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

                  But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

                  On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                   

                  Hi all,

                  I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                  I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                  Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                  My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                  Any ideas?








                  --
                  Thanks, Bill S
                  Ph 832-338-3080
                  www.watt-tracker.com
                  www.promotingevs.com
                • Rex Allison
                  Thanks Wolf. Has anyone taken the fan and shroud off and accessed the speed sensor with the motor in the your Force? It looks tight but doable.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                    Thanks Wolf.

                    Has anyone taken the fan and shroud off and accessed the speed sensor with the motor in the your Force? It looks tight but doable.



                    From: Wolf <wolf@...>
                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 8:41 AM
                    Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Motor shuddering in morning

                     
                    I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).
                    Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.
                    Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.
                    But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.
                    On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                     
                    Hi all,

                    I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                    I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                    Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                    My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                    Any ideas?





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