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Re: [solectria_ev] Elcon/TCCH Charger

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  • Wolf
    I could take a look at them, see if they can be fixed. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 28, 2013
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      I could take a look at them, see if they can be fixed.
      On Aug 28, 2013 4:38 PM, "Paul Guzyk" <guzyk@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Elcon chargers are a great price, but it they are not properly ventilated
      > they will overheat and components burn up inside.
      >
      > I used to use them in Plug in Prius conversions, but recently we've seen
      > about 75% fail within 18 months....most fail outside of the warranty period
      > so we get to eat them.
      >
      > There is no "thermal slowdown" engineered into the charger.
      > Well there sort of is, components melt and the charger ends up in the
      > trash. :)
      >
      > If anyone knows how to fix 1500, 2000, and 2500 Elcons I have about 15 bad
      > ones here in Boulder, CO.
      >
      > Paul Guzyk
      > Boulder Hybrid Conversions
      > www.boulderHC.com
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • paul dove
      Mine overheats but it shuts off the current at that point. Maybe I need to delve a little more deeply. I would like to try and fix one of your dead one s as
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 29, 2013
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        Mine overheats but it shuts off the current at that point. Maybe I need to delve a little more deeply.

        I would like to try and fix one of your dead one's as well if you are amiable.




        ________________________________
        From: Paul Guzyk <guzyk@...>
        To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 4:38 PM
        Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Elcon/TCCH Charger



         
        Elcon chargers are a great price, but it they are not properly ventilated they will overheat and components burn up inside.  

        I used to use them in Plug in Prius conversions, but recently we've seen about 75% fail within 18 months....most fail outside of the warranty period so we get to eat them.

        There is no "thermal slowdown" engineered into the charger.  
        Well there sort of is, components melt and the charger ends up in the trash.  :)

        If anyone knows how to fix 1500, 2000, and 2500 Elcons I have about 15 bad ones here in Boulder, CO.

        Paul Guzyk
        Boulder Hybrid Conversions
        www.boulderHC.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • theoldcars
        Paul Are the Elcon chargers your having fail in an enclosed space? I have been following the Elcon chargers closely. Everyone seems happy with their
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 9, 2013
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          Paul
           
          Are the Elcon chargers your having fail in an enclosed space?
           
          I have been following the Elcon chargers closely. Everyone seems happy with their performance. This is the first post any where I have seen that says they are having problems.
           
          Personally I don't have anything to do with Elcon other then I have been recommending them based on feed back. They seem to be a very good match up with the CALB cells.
           
          They are priced very reasonable. Also they are an isolated charger and very efficient.
           
          It would be worth adding a fan if there is a need for more cooling.
           
          The Solectria with a charger in the trunk I never thought that was a good idea. Even with a fan it can get very warm in an enclosed space.
           
          Don Blazer
           
           
           
          In a message dated 8/29/2013 6:20:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dovepa@... writes:

          Elcon chargers are a great price, but it they are not properly ventilated they will overheat and components burn up inside.  

          I used to use them in Plug in Prius conversions, but recently we've seen about 75% fail within 18 months....most fail outside of the warranty period so we get to eat them.

          There is no "thermal slowdown" engineered into the charger.  
          Well there sort of is, components melt and the charger ends up in the trash.  :)

          If anyone knows how to fix 1500, 2000, and 2500 Elcons I have about 15 bad ones here in Boulder, CO.

          Paul Guzyk
          Boulder Hybrid Conversions
          www.boulderHC.com
        • Charles Bliss
          The Elcons are really clear about how you mount them. There is a sticker on them warning about how they need to be mounted to stay cool.
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2013
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            The Elcons are really clear about how you mount them.  There is a sticker on them warning about how they need to be mounted to stay cool.
            On 9/9/2013 6:27 PM, theoldcars@... wrote:
             

            Paul
             
            Are the Elcon chargers your having fail in an enclosed space?
             
            I have been following the Elcon chargers closely. Everyone seems happy with their performance. This is the first post any where I have seen that says they are having problems.
             
            Personally I don't have anything to do with Elcon other then I have been recommending them based on feed back. They seem to be a very good match up with the CALB cells.
             
            They are priced very reasonable. Also they are an isolated charger and very efficient.
             
            It would be worth adding a fan if there is a need for more cooling.
             
            The Solectria with a charger in the trunk I never thought that was a good idea. Even with a fan it can get very warm in an enclosed space.
             
            Don Blazer
             
             


          • Paul Guzyk
            Yes, airflow is limited.  They are in the spare tire well of the prius.  The 2000+ and 2500 have built in fans but they still die shortly after the warranty
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2013
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              Yes, airflow is limited.  They are in the spare tire well of the prius.  The 2000+ and 2500 have built in fans but they still die shortly after the warranty period.   Like I said it my first post, they need to be properly ventilated.

              When Elcons work they are good value, but what irks me is poor engineering by Elcon/TCCH.
              If they get too hot they should throttle down and/or shut off until they are cool, not burn up components inside.
              This could be a fire hazard and I doubt they are UL/CSA approved.

              How hard would it have been to add a self-resetting thermal fuse of some sort?

              For many of our new installations we are using European designed Eltek chargers, they are wonderful but 2x the price of Elcon and require CANbus interface to control them....

              Paul Guzyk
              Boulder Hybrid Conversions
              www.BoulderHC.com




              From: "theoldcars@..." <theoldcars@...>
              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 7:27 PM
              Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Elcon/TCCH Charger

               
              Paul
               
              Are the Elcon chargers your having fail in an enclosed space?
               
              I have been following the Elcon chargers closely. Everyone seems happy with their performance. This is the first post any where I have seen that says they are having problems.
               
              Personally I don't have anything to do with Elcon other then I have been recommending them based on feed back. They seem to be a very good match up with the CALB cells.
               
              They are priced very reasonable. Also they are an isolated charger and very efficient.
               
              It would be worth adding a fan if there is a need for more cooling.
               
              The Solectria with a charger in the trunk I never thought that was a good idea. Even with a fan it can get very warm in an enclosed space.
               
              Don Blazer
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/29/2013 6:20:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dovepa@... writes:

              Elcon chargers are a great price, but it they are not properly ventilated they will overheat and components burn up inside.  

              I used to use them in Plug in Prius conversions, but recently we've seen about 75% fail within 18 months....most fail outside of the warranty period so we get to eat them.

              There is no "thermal slowdown" engineered into the charger.  
              Well there sort of is, components melt and the charger ends up in the trash.  :)

              If anyone knows how to fix 1500, 2000, and 2500 Elcons I have about 15 bad ones here in Boulder, CO.

              Paul Guzyk
              Boulder Hybrid Conversions
              www.boulderHC.com


            • theoldcars
              Hello Paul Please don t take this as an arrogant or condescending response. It seems to me you had set up the Elcon to fail. Yes they have fans but if you
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 10, 2013
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                Hello Paul
                 
                Please don't take this as an arrogant or condescending response.
                 
                It seems to me you had set up the Elcon to fail. Yes they have fans but if you keep them in an enclosed space the built in fans on the Elcon or any other air cooled charger should be near ambient temperatures. If I am wrong please excuse me but it seems your expecting the fans on the Elcon to work beyond their designed limits.
                 
                If the Elcon or any other air cooled charger was protected as you imply the next problem might be this.
                 
                You would come out to find your EV not being charged do to the charger shut down from over heating. So either way for good results you would have to add venting. Either you expose the charger to an extended time of high heat or end up with an EV not fully charged.
                 
                The answer would be to either have an intake and a fan exhausting the heated air. Of if venting was an issue then a water cooled charger would be required. This is just another slightly more complicated way of removing the heat from an enclosed area.
                 
                I highly doubt any air cooled charger can be put in an enclosed space and expect good results. Your Eltek chargers might hold up better but at twice the cost if it fails in 2x the service life of the Elcon you have gained nothing. I would expect your Eltek chargers would last for a much longer time if you vent the enclosure.
                 
                The Elcon by all accounts is a good charger for a very reasonable amount. This is what I am finding being said on many different lists. This is the first post I have seen stating such a high failure rate.
                 
                My only motive here is that EV drivers spend the least amount possible and have the best results.
                 
                Yes I am sure a more robust charger can be designed but venting with fans is not usually difficult. I would expect an extended service life of any charger not just the Elcon chargers.
                 
                I have no connection with Elcon and have done no group buys on them.
                 
                Don Blazer
                 
                In a message dated 9/9/2013 7:50:14 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, guzyk@... writes:
                 

                Yes, airflow is limited.  They are in the spare tire well of the prius.  The 2000+ and 2500 have built in fans but they still die shortly after the warranty period.   Like I said it my first post, they need to be properly ventilated.

                When Elcons work they are good value, but what irks me is poor engineering by Elcon/TCCH.
                If they get too hot they should throttle down and/or shut off until they are cool, not burn up components inside.
                This could be a fire hazard and I doubt they are UL/CSA approved.

                How hard would it have been to add a self-resetting thermal fuse of some sort?

                For many of our new installations we are using European designed Eltek chargers, they are wonderful but 2x the price of Elcon and require CANbus interface to control them....

                Paul Guzyk
                Boulder Hybrid Conversions
                www.BoulderHC.com




                From: "theoldcars@..." <theoldcars@...>
                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 7:27 PM
                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Elcon/TCCH Charger

                 
                Paul
                 
                Are the Elcon chargers your having fail in an enclosed space?
                 
                I have been following the Elcon chargers closely. Everyone seems happy with their performance. This is the first post any where I have seen that says they are having problems.
                 
                Personally I don't have anything to do with Elcon other then I have been recommending them based on feed back. They seem to be a very good match up with the CALB cells.
                 
                They are priced very reasonable. Also they are an isolated charger and very efficient.
                 
                It would be worth adding a fan if there is a need for more cooling.
                 
                The Solectria with a charger in the trunk I never thought that was a good idea. Even with a fan it can get very warm in an enclosed space.
                 
                Don Blazer
                 
                 
                 
                In a message dated 8/29/2013 6:20:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dovepa@... writes:

                Elcon chargers are a great price, but it they are not properly ventilated they will overheat and components burn up inside.  

                I used to use them in Plug in Prius conversions, but recently we've seen about 75% fail within 18 months....most fail outside of the warranty period so we get to eat them.

                There is no "thermal slowdown" engineered into the charger.  
                Well there sort of is, components melt and the charger ends up in the trash.  :)

                If anyone knows how to fix 1500, 2000, and 2500 Elcons I have about 15 bad ones here in Boulder, CO.

                Paul Guzyk
                Boulder Hybrid Conversions
                www.boulderHC.com


              • Paul Guzyk
                I realize we use the Elcons in a way that is not ideal.   I m still disappointed in their engineering.   For an extra few dollars per unit they could have
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 11, 2013
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                  I realize we use the Elcons in a way that is not ideal.   I'm still disappointed in their engineering.   For an extra few dollars per unit they could have saved purchasers the frustration we've gone through.  

                  It reminds me of the Manzanita chargers I used in the past, if you accidentally turn them on without a load connected it breaks the charger.  What kind of engineer would come up with that design?   That's just bad engineering IMHO.   A good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product and incorporates appropriate safeguards.   
                • Collin Kidder
                  Yes, a good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product. But, people are *cheapskates*. The more safety and protection you engineer in the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 12, 2013
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                    Yes, a good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product. But, people are *cheapskates*. The more safety and protection you engineer in the more expensive the product. Unfortunately sometimes people act like sugared up preschoolers with scissors and break something. As a design engineer you want to prevent this but it can become dizzying the # of creative ways people think up to break your product. So, you can't prevent everything. However, the problem with Manzanita chargers where they break if there is no load is stupid. That is a common condition that a charger should be able to accept. Another thing I had was that I once hooked up a DC/DC converter wrong. There is no excuse for not putting an 80 cent diode in line with the converter input. I blew up an $1800 converter just by mixing up the colors for the power input. There is no excuse for that. But, it is too tempting to break something and then feel that the engineer should have known you'd try to break it like that. They can't protect you from yourself in every single circumstance. At some point a product has to be shipped at a reasonable price.


                    On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Paul Guzyk <guzyk@...> wrote:
                     

                    I realize we use the Elcons in a way that is not ideal.   I'm still disappointed in their engineering.   For an extra few dollars per unit they could have saved purchasers the frustration we've gone through.  

                    It reminds me of the Manzanita chargers I used in the past, if you accidentally turn them on without a load connected it breaks the charger.  What kind of engineer would come up with that design?   That's just bad engineering IMHO.   A good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product and incorporates appropriate safeguards.   

                  • Wolf
                    I don t know if I am a good engineer, (I guess that is for others to judge), but I do try and design is as much protection as possible, because people do make
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 12, 2013
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                      I don't know if I am a good engineer, (I guess that is for others to judge), but I do try and design is as much protection as possible, because people do make mistakes.

                      My Solectria to DMOC Adapter has a fuse, reverse battery protection schottky diode, and a tranzorb (to protect the diode).

                      Every user input and output is current limited, ESD protected, EMC protected, EMI protected, filtered and optically isolated.

                      The micro has one external clock, and two internal clocks, configured in triple redundant clock switch failsafe with watch dog timers. Even if the micro was to lock up in such a way that the watchdog could not recover it, since all the isolated power supplies are generated by the micro, they would decay and shut down all the outputs and open all the relays.

                      The board is designed with 1000V (isolation transformer is only rated for 600V RMS, so it is the limiting factor) creepage distance between the micro, user interface, and DMOC interface. Just incase something gets wired wrong or something was to fail in the DMOC and expose the adapter it to pack voltage the user would be safe.

                      I won't mention all the numerous safety features in the firmware and software. ;)

                      Since the Solectria to DMOC Adapter is what actually commands the vehicle to move the stakes are much higher than a battery charger. ;)

                      On Sep 12, 2013 7:52 AM, "Collin Kidder" <collink@...> wrote:
                       

                      Yes, a good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product. But, people are *cheapskates*. The more safety and protection you engineer in the more expensive the product. Unfortunately sometimes people act like sugared up preschoolers with scissors and break something. As a design engineer you want to prevent this but it can become dizzying the # of creative ways people think up to break your product. So, you can't prevent everything. However, the problem with Manzanita chargers where they break if there is no load is stupid. That is a common condition that a charger should be able to accept. Another thing I had was that I once hooked up a DC/DC converter wrong. There is no excuse for not putting an 80 cent diode in line with the converter input. I blew up an $1800 converter just by mixing up the colors for the power input. There is no excuse for that. But, it is too tempting to break something and then feel that the engineer should have known you'd try to break it like that. They can't protect you from yourself in every single circumstance. At some point a product has to be shipped at a reasonable price.


                      On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Paul Guzyk <guzyk@...> wrote:
                       

                      I realize we use the Elcons in a way that is not ideal.   I'm still disappointed in their engineering.   For an extra few dollars per unit they could have saved purchasers the frustration we've gone through.  

                      It reminds me of the Manzanita chargers I used in the past, if you accidentally turn them on without a load connected it breaks the charger.  What kind of engineer would come up with that design?   That's just bad engineering IMHO.   A good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product and incorporates appropriate safeguards.   

                    • kwhouse_56
                      Here s some fun facts for ya: The power cord into the 1.5kw TCCH chargers connects to the main board at three terminals, G for ground, L for line, and N for
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 24, 2013
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                        Here's some fun facts for ya:  The power cord into the 1.5kw TCCH chargers connects to the main board at three terminals, G for ground, L for line, and N for neutral.  The green earth ground wire is connected to G, but the white neutral wire is connected to the L terminal, and the black line wire is connected to the N terminal...what's up with that mess?  Schematic is nearly done for the analog board, just getting started on the digical...


                        The low voltage power supply does have a shutdown feature at 170C with restart at 130C, but the input start relay looks underrated for the current it passes and is overheating and causing a thermal runaway situation.



                        ---In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, <wolf@...> wrote:

                        I don't know if I am a good engineer, (I guess that is for others to judge), but I do try and design is as much protection as possible, because people do make mistakes.

                        My Solectria to DMOC Adapter has a fuse, reverse battery protection schottky diode, and a tranzorb (to protect the diode).

                        Every user input and output is current limited, ESD protected, EMC protected, EMI protected, filtered and optically isolated.

                        The micro has one external clock, and two internal clocks, configured in triple redundant clock switch failsafe with watch dog timers. Even if the micro was to lock up in such a way that the watchdog could not recover it, since all the isolated power supplies are generated by the micro, they would decay and shut down all the outputs and open all the relays.

                        The board is designed with 1000V (isolation transformer is only rated for 600V RMS, so it is the limiting factor) creepage distance between the micro, user interface, and DMOC interface. Just incase something gets wired wrong or something was to fail in the DMOC and expose the adapter it to pack voltage the user would be safe.

                        I won't mention all the numerous safety features in the firmware and software. ;)

                        Since the Solectria to DMOC Adapter is what actually commands the vehicle to move the stakes are much higher than a battery charger. ;)

                        On Sep 12, 2013 7:52 AM, "Collin Kidder" <collink@...> wrote:
                         
                        Yes, a good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product. But, people are *cheapskates*. The more safety and protection you engineer in the more expensive the product. Unfortunately sometimes people act like sugared up preschoolers with scissors and break something. As a design engineer you want to prevent this but it can become dizzying the # of creative ways people think up to break your product. So, you can't prevent everything. However, the problem with Manzanita chargers where they break if there is no load is stupid. That is a common condition that a charger should be able to accept. Another thing I had was that I once hooked up a DC/DC converter wrong. There is no excuse for not putting an 80 cent diode in line with the converter input. I blew up an $1800 converter just by mixing up the colors for the power input. There is no excuse for that. But, it is too tempting to break something and then feel that the engineer should have known you'd try to break it like that. They can't protect you from yourself in every single circumstance. At some point a product has to be shipped at a reasonable price.


                        On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Paul Guzyk <guzyk@...> wrote:
                         
                        I realize we use the Elcons in a way that is not ideal.   I'm still disappointed in their engineering.   For an extra few dollars per unit they could have saved purchasers the frustration we've gone through.  

                        It reminds me of the Manzanita chargers I used in the past, if you accidentally turn them on without a load connected it breaks the charger.  What kind of engineer would come up with that design?   That's just bad engineering IMHO.   A good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product and incorporates appropriate safeguards.   
                      • Newton Hausermann
                        I have no idea if it s the same relay but my friends elcon died on them i believe it s a 2000w unit and they pulled it apart and found i think it was a fuse
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 24, 2013
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                          I have no idea if it's the same relay but my friends elcon died on them i believe it's a 2000w unit and they pulled it apart and found i think it was a fuse was blown but the relay was rated to like 25v and it should be like 150 for their use. I'm not totally sure where and i can't find the conversation but there was an under-rated relay in the mix. 


                          On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 2:21 PM, <kwhouse_56@...> wrote:
                           

                          Here's some fun facts for ya:  The power cord into the 1.5kw TCCH chargers connects to the main board at three terminals, G for ground, L for line, and N for neutral.  The green earth ground wire is connected to G, but the white neutral wire is connected to the L terminal, and the black line wire is connected to the N terminal...what's up with that mess?  Schematic is nearly done for the analog board, just getting started on the digical...


                          The low voltage power supply does have a shutdown feature at 170C with restart at 130C, but the input start relay looks underrated for the current it passes and is overheating and causing a thermal runaway situation.



                          ---In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, <wolf@...> wrote:

                          I don't know if I am a good engineer, (I guess that is for others to judge), but I do try and design is as much protection as possible, because people do make mistakes.

                          My Solectria to DMOC Adapter has a fuse, reverse battery protection schottky diode, and a tranzorb (to protect the diode).

                          Every user input and output is current limited, ESD protected, EMC protected, EMI protected, filtered and optically isolated.

                          The micro has one external clock, and two internal clocks, configured in triple redundant clock switch failsafe with watch dog timers. Even if the micro was to lock up in such a way that the watchdog could not recover it, since all the isolated power supplies are generated by the micro, they would decay and shut down all the outputs and open all the relays.

                          The board is designed with 1000V (isolation transformer is only rated for 600V RMS, so it is the limiting factor) creepage distance between the micro, user interface, and DMOC interface. Just incase something gets wired wrong or something was to fail in the DMOC and expose the adapter it to pack voltage the user would be safe.

                          I won't mention all the numerous safety features in the firmware and software. ;)

                          Since the Solectria to DMOC Adapter is what actually commands the vehicle to move the stakes are much higher than a battery charger. ;)

                          On Sep 12, 2013 7:52 AM, "Collin Kidder" <collink@...> wrote:
                           
                          Yes, a good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product. But, people are *cheapskates*. The more safety and protection you engineer in the more expensive the product. Unfortunately sometimes people act like sugared up preschoolers with scissors and break something. As a design engineer you want to prevent this but it can become dizzying the # of creative ways people think up to break your product. So, you can't prevent everything. However, the problem with Manzanita chargers where they break if there is no load is stupid. That is a common condition that a charger should be able to accept. Another thing I had was that I once hooked up a DC/DC converter wrong. There is no excuse for not putting an 80 cent diode in line with the converter input. I blew up an $1800 converter just by mixing up the colors for the power input. There is no excuse for that. But, it is too tempting to break something and then feel that the engineer should have known you'd try to break it like that. They can't protect you from yourself in every single circumstance. At some point a product has to be shipped at a reasonable price.


                          On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Paul Guzyk <guzyk@...> wrote:
                           
                          I realize we use the Elcons in a way that is not ideal.   I'm still disappointed in their engineering.   For an extra few dollars per unit they could have saved purchasers the frustration we've gone through.  

                          It reminds me of the Manzanita chargers I used in the past, if you accidentally turn them on without a load connected it breaks the charger.  What kind of engineer would come up with that design?   That's just bad engineering IMHO.   A good engineer should anticipate how customers will use the product and incorporates appropriate safeguards.   


                        • Rex Allison
                          Hi all, I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 26, 2013
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                            Hi all,

                            I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                            I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                            Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                            My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                            Any ideas?



                          • Wolf
                            I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor). Also, one thing
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                              I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

                              Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

                              Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

                              But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

                              On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                               

                              Hi all,

                              I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                              I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                              Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                              My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                              Any ideas?



                            • William Swann
                              I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                                I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

                                On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:
                                 

                                I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

                                Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

                                Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

                                But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

                                On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Hi all,

                                I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                                I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                                Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                                My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                                Any ideas?





                                --
                                Thanks, Bill S
                                Ph 832-338-3080
                                www.watt-tracker.com
                                www.promotingevs.com

                              • Wolf
                                Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial. The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                                  Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial.

                                  The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a tendency to push the shaft in and out under accel and deaccel.

                                  How many miles do you have on the E10?

                                  The motor bearings are supposed to be changed out around 50,000 miles.

                                  Since it only happens while coasting I would bet it is a motor bearing. You could test it by taking the belts off and just spin the motors by them self and see if the vibration is there.

                                  I have a neat 1Hz whump-whump sound at highway speed and it took me a while to figure out that it is the differential, I can change the frequency of the noise with tire pressure, or when driving around a curve.

                                  My E10 sat for many years before I got it, an I think what ever part of the differential was not in the oil has corroded and when things line up it makes a whump noise.

                                  On Sep 30, 2013 10:48 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

                                  On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:

                                   

                                  I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

                                  Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

                                  Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

                                  But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

                                  On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Hi all,

                                  I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                                  I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                                  Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                                  My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                                  Any ideas?





                                  --
                                  Thanks, Bill S
                                  Ph 832-338-3080
                                  www.watt-tracker.com
                                  www.promotingevs.com

                                • William Swann
                                  The odo says 8300 miles. I will take the belts off and see if I can detect any play. I have run on one motor or the other, and it seems OK. The vibration is
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                                       The odo says 8300 miles. I will take the belts off and see if I can detect any play. I have run on one motor or the other, and it seems OK. The vibration is bad enough that you do not want to coast at all. Either accelerate or decelerate. I acquired 3 of these trucks, and was not as careful as I should have been in keeping the correct controller in the correct truck. Could it be that settings for the controller do not match?
                                       The way I look at it, is that the culprit is a mechanical problem, or a controller problem, or an ignition box problem. Later on this week I will put 2 known good controllers in this truck and see of the problem dis-appears. I suppose I could do the same with 2 ignition boxes. And even switch out 2 motors. Will advise.


                                    On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial.

                                    The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a tendency to push the shaft in and out under accel and deaccel.

                                    How many miles do you have on the E10?

                                    The motor bearings are supposed to be changed out around 50,000 miles.

                                    Since it only happens while coasting I would bet it is a motor bearing. You could test it by taking the belts off and just spin the motors by them self and see if the vibration is there.

                                    I have a neat 1Hz whump-whump sound at highway speed and it took me a while to figure out that it is the differential, I can change the frequency of the noise with tire pressure, or when driving around a curve.

                                    My E10 sat for many years before I got it, an I think what ever part of the differential was not in the oil has corroded and when things line up it makes a whump noise.

                                    On Sep 30, 2013 10:48 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

                                    On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:
                                     

                                    I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

                                    Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

                                    Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

                                    But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

                                    On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Hi all,

                                    I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                                    I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                                    Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                                    My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                                    Any ideas?








                                    --
                                    Thanks, Bill S
                                    Ph 832-338-3080
                                    www.watt-tracker.com
                                    www.promotingevs.com
                                  • Wolf
                                    It could also be a bad universal joint, check the play in it by hand. With the parking brake set, and the bed lifted, can you spin the motor side back and
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                                      It could also be a bad universal joint, check the play in it by hand.

                                      With the parking brake set, and the bed lifted, can you spin the motor side back and fourth?

                                      I doubt it would be electrical, or controller related. Since when coasting no current is sent to the motor.

                                      On Sep 30, 2013 11:51 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
                                       

                                         The odo says 8300 miles. I will take the belts off and see if I can detect any play. I have run on one motor or the other, and it seems OK. The vibration is bad enough that you do not want to coast at all. Either accelerate or decelerate. I acquired 3 of these trucks, and was not as careful as I should have been in keeping the correct controller in the correct truck. Could it be that settings for the controller do not match?
                                         The way I look at it, is that the culprit is a mechanical problem, or a controller problem, or an ignition box problem. Later on this week I will put 2 known good controllers in this truck and see of the problem dis-appears. I suppose I could do the same with 2 ignition boxes. And even switch out 2 motors. Will advise.


                                      On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Yeah, but I would not think there would be much run out on the E10 motors since, all the load is radial.

                                      The Force motors have a splined shaft, so it has a tendency to push the shaft in and out under accel and deaccel.

                                      How many miles do you have on the E10?

                                      The motor bearings are supposed to be changed out around 50,000 miles.

                                      Since it only happens while coasting I would bet it is a motor bearing. You could test it by taking the belts off and just spin the motors by them self and see if the vibration is there.

                                      I have a neat 1Hz whump-whump sound at highway speed and it took me a while to figure out that it is the differential, I can change the frequency of the noise with tire pressure, or when driving around a curve.

                                      My E10 sat for many years before I got it, an I think what ever part of the differential was not in the oil has corroded and when things line up it makes a whump noise.

                                      On Sep 30, 2013 10:48 AM, "William Swann" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      I have a serious vibration - longitudinal, when coasting. On an E10. To check runout on the motor bearings, do you just pull on the motor shaft, maybe with a dial indicator showing movement?

                                      On Monday, September 30, 2013, Wolf wrote:
                                       

                                      I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).

                                      Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.

                                      Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.

                                      But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.

                                      On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Hi all,

                                      I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                                      I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                                      Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                                      My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                                      Any ideas?








                                      --
                                      Thanks, Bill S
                                      Ph 832-338-3080
                                      www.watt-tracker.com
                                      www.promotingevs.com
                                    • Rex Allison
                                      Thanks Wolf. Has anyone taken the fan and shroud off and accessed the speed sensor with the motor in the your Force? It looks tight but doable.
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 30, 2013
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                                        Thanks Wolf.

                                        Has anyone taken the fan and shroud off and accessed the speed sensor with the motor in the your Force? It looks tight but doable.



                                        From: Wolf <wolf@...>
                                        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 8:41 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Motor shuddering in morning

                                         
                                        I would check the speed sensor gap, and axial run out in your motor bearings (might actually be moving the encoder disk away from the sensor).
                                        Also, one thing I noticed on a speed sensor, when I replaced the led photodiode parts. The new ones where much brighter then the old ones.
                                        Over time the LEDs get dimmer and I wonder if this is causing your problem, if you are on the hairy edge, then when the motor warms up you lower the band gap energy just enough for the LED and photo diode to see each other.
                                        But it is more likely to be a mechanical problem.
                                        On Sep 26, 2013 3:01 PM, "Rex Allison" <ev64bug@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Hi all,

                                        I have a curious problem. In the morning my car is not operating properly. I turn on the car an select power (actual forward or reverse setting has no effect) and the car barely creeps forward. The motor also makes a high pitch wine as if it is running at high speed. I can creep forward or reverse but only at a really slow speed. If I do this for a while the car will suddenly operate properly and never exhibit this problem again during the day.

                                        I had this happen a few times maybe three years ago so I replaced the DB9 connectors. Although now I'm not sure that was the problem.

                                        Another observation is that the behavior is pretty consistent, not what I would expect from an intermittent speed sensor wire.

                                        My theory is that the moisture in the morning is affecting the sensor operation and that running the motor a little bit warms things up, fixing the problem. Maybe the speed senor board needs the gap readjusted?

                                        Any ideas?





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