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Update on ca100's

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  • russell_fauver
    Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don t have a BMS. I m only charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling them on the
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 6, 2013
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      Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling them on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that as the max setting, 189.6v

      Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set 187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I marked it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.

      For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted to go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it like an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell. We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at 40mph and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was 3.00 and pack voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.

      With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees' :-)
    • Charles Bliss
      First, I drive with a BMS, that said; The 2.78 is an acceptable limit to hit and get home. Generally speaking, permanent damage happens around 2.5. I have
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 6, 2013
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        First, I drive with a BMS, that said; The 2.78 is an acceptable limit to
        hit and get home. Generally speaking, permanent damage happens around 2.5.
        I have seen a number of cells do a slow bleed to below that without damage,
        but under load, 2.5 is about it. Because I have a BMS, I charge to 3.6 and
        balance to 3.45. Anything over 3.4 should be fully charged and then the
        will settle to 3.35(ish).



        The beauty of my bms is that it reports high and low cells so I know, real
        time, exactly what the batteries are up to, standing or under load.



        Your results sound great.



        From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of russell_fauver
        Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 8:48 PM
        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's





        Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only
        charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling them
        on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb
        rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and
        it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it
        approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of
        them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that as
        the max setting, 189.6v

        Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting
        over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set
        187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off
        sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum
        pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell
        get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it
        seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest
        of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay
        with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I marked
        it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.

        For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted to
        go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I
        damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em
        up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to
        time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The
        Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it like
        an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the
        AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too
        :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit
        this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell.
        We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at 40mph
        and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in
        the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was 3.00 and pack
        voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in
        the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.

        With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees' :-)





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • d. Bouton Baldridge
        Russell, Based on my nearly five years experience with lithium s, you have chosen a reasonable path and if you continue on I believe that you will get long
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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          Russell,
          Based on my nearly five years experience with lithium's, you have chosen a reasonable path and if you continue on I believe that you will get long life from your pack. I do not have a BMS and have kept my pack between the knees and the cells are acting just like they did five years ago, unlike lead that did not last more than two years, for me it is the warm temps here, lead suffers from temps over 80 degrees, but lithium thrives on the higher temps here. Good job, you should enjoy many years with it,
          Bouty


          ________________________________
          From: russell_fauver <russell_fauver@...>
          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:48 PM
          Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's

           

          Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling them on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that as the max setting, 189.6v

          Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set 187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I marked it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.

          For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted to go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it like an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell. We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at 40mph and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was
          3.00 and pack voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.

          With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees' :-)




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • d. Bouton Baldridge
          One thing Russell, you do not need to float the lithium, in fact avoid it. Once they are charged unplug them, they self discharge very slowly, and they will
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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            One thing Russell, you do not need to float the lithium, in fact avoid it. Once they are charged unplug them, they self discharge very slowly, and they will last longer.
            Bouty


            ________________________________
            From: russell_fauver <russell_fauver@...>
            To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:48 PM
            Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's

             

            Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling them on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that as the max setting, 189.6v

            Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set 187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I marked it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.

            For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted to go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it like an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell. We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at 40mph and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was
            3.00 and pack voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.

            With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees' :-)




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • russell_fauver
            i ll do it. Thanks
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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              i'll do it. Thanks

              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge" <cfrkeepr@...> wrote:
              >
              > One thing Russell, you do not need to float the lithium, in fact avoid it. Once they are charged unplug them, they self discharge very slowly, and they will last longer.
              > Bouty
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: russell_fauver <russell_fauver@...>
              > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:48 PM
              > Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's
              >
              >  
              >
              > Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling them on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that as the max setting, 189.6v
              >
              > Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set 187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I marked it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.
              >
              > For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted to go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it like an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell. We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at 40mph and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was
              > 3.00 and pack voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.
              >
              > With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees' :-)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • russell_fauver
              Thanks for the tips. I don t expect to need the full range of this pack but it s nice to know it s there.
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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                Thanks for the tips. I don't expect to need the full range of this pack but it's nice to know it's there.


                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Bliss" <cbliss@...> wrote:
                >
                > First, I drive with a BMS, that said; The 2.78 is an acceptable limit to
                > hit and get home. Generally speaking, permanent damage happens around 2.5.
                > I have seen a number of cells do a slow bleed to below that without damage,
                > but under load, 2.5 is about it. Because I have a BMS, I charge to 3.6 and
                > balance to 3.45. Anything over 3.4 should be fully charged and then the
                > will settle to 3.35(ish).
                >
                >
                >
                > The beauty of my bms is that it reports high and low cells so I know, real
                > time, exactly what the batteries are up to, standing or under load.
                >
                >
                >
                > Your results sound great.
                >
                >
                >
                > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of russell_fauver
                > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 8:48 PM
                > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only
                > charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling them
                > on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb
                > rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and
                > it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it
                > approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of
                > them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that as
                > the max setting, 189.6v
                >
                > Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting
                > over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set
                > 187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off
                > sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum
                > pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell
                > get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it
                > seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest
                > of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay
                > with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I marked
                > it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.
                >
                > For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted to
                > go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I
                > damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em
                > up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to
                > time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The
                > Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it like
                > an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the
                > AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too
                > :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit
                > this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell.
                > We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at 40mph
                > and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in
                > the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was 3.00 and pack
                > voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in
                > the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.
                >
                > With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees' :-)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Wolf
                I so want to upgrade to lithium-ion... But I keep seeing research articles on solid lithium-sulfur batteries. Perhaps my Gel cells will hold out long enough.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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                  I so want to upgrade to lithium-ion...

                  But I keep seeing research articles on solid lithium-sulfur batteries.

                  Perhaps my Gel cells will hold out long enough. ;)
                  On Jun 7, 2013 1:46 PM, "russell_fauver" <russell_fauver@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks for the tips. I don't expect to need the full range of this pack
                  > but it's nice to know it's there.
                  >
                  > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Bliss" <cbliss@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > First, I drive with a BMS, that said; The 2.78 is an acceptable limit to
                  > > hit and get home. Generally speaking, permanent damage happens around
                  > 2.5.
                  > > I have seen a number of cells do a slow bleed to below that without
                  > damage,
                  > > but under load, 2.5 is about it. Because I have a BMS, I charge to 3.6
                  > and
                  > > balance to 3.45. Anything over 3.4 should be fully charged and then the
                  > > will settle to 3.35(ish).
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The beauty of my bms is that it reports high and low cells so I know,
                  > real
                  > > time, exactly what the batteries are up to, standing or under load.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your results sound great.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On
                  > > Behalf Of russell_fauver
                  > > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 8:48 PM
                  > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only
                  > > charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling
                  > them
                  > > on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb
                  > > rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and
                  > > it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it
                  > > approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of
                  > > them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used
                  > that as
                  > > the max setting, 189.6v
                  > >
                  > > Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that
                  > sitting
                  > > over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set
                  > > 187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off
                  > > sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a
                  > minimum
                  > > pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one
                  > cell
                  > > get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it
                  > > seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the
                  > rest
                  > > of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay
                  > > with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I
                  > marked
                  > > it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.
                  > >
                  > > For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I
                  > wanted to
                  > > go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I
                  > > damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran
                  > 'em
                  > > up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to
                  > > time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The
                  > > Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it
                  > like
                  > > an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and
                  > the
                  > > AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was
                  > too
                  > > :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a
                  > bit
                  > > this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak
                  > cell.
                  > > We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at
                  > 40mph
                  > > and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car
                  > in
                  > > the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was 3.00 and
                  > pack
                  > > voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my
                  > wife in
                  > > the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.
                  > >
                  > > With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees'
                  > :-)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Charles Bliss
                  Just noticed you are running 100ah batteries but in your message, you showed discharging 110.08ah. If the numbers are correct, that is running beyond a safe
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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                    Just noticed you are running 100ah batteries but in your message, you showed discharging 110.08ah. If the numbers are correct, that is running beyond a safe zone, at least with respect to protecting your batteries from damage.

                    Conservative would be 80%.



                    From: russell_fauver <russell_fauver@... <mailto:russell_fauver%40yahoo.com> >
                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:48 PM
                    Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's



                    ... Parked the car in the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was
                    3.00 and pack voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • theoldcars
                    The CALB 100AH cells run any where from 108AH to 118AH I agree 80% DOD is the deepest discharge one should do. For maximum life 40 to 80 percent SOC use Right
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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                      The CALB 100AH cells run any where from 108AH to 118AH

                      I agree 80% DOD is the deepest discharge one should do. For maximum life 40
                      to 80 percent SOC use

                      Right now I have several hundred CA100 cells all 116AH or higher if anyone
                      wants them. It you took them down to 80% SOC that would be right at 93AH.

                      The CALB cells come with test sheets showing their resistance readings and
                      capacity for each serial number on the cells.

                      CALB sells cells for many uses not just for EVs. I have managed to obtain
                      higher AH capacity by buying them even before they make it to the USA. So I
                      am able to get these higher AH cells to EV drivers.

                      Sorry per CALB I am not able to post pricing contact me off list for
                      costs.

                      Don Blazer




                      In a message dated 6/7/2013 2:10:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                      cbliss@... writes:




                      Just noticed you are running 100ah batteries but in your message, you
                      showed discharging 110.08ah. If the numbers are correct, that is running beyond
                      a safe zone, at least with respect to protecting your batteries from
                      damage.

                      Conservative would be 80%.

                      From: russell_fauver <_russell_fauver@..._
                      (mailto:russell_fauver@...) <mailto:russell_fauver%40yahoo.com> >
                      To: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                      <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:48 PM
                      Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's

                      ... Parked the car in the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell
                      voltage was
                      3.00 and pack voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just
                      me and my wife in the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • theoldcars
                      CALB low voltage limit under load is 2.5 volts. There is not a lot of capacity between 2.5 and 3.0 volts so its a heavy price to pay for little gain. Don
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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                        CALB low voltage limit under load is 2.5 volts. There is not a lot of
                        capacity between 2.5 and 3.0 volts so its a heavy price to pay for little gain.

                        Don Blazer


                        In a message dated 6/6/2013 9:12:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        cbliss@... writes:




                        First, I drive with a BMS, that said; The 2.78 is an acceptable limit to
                        hit and get home. Generally speaking, permanent damage happens around 2.5.
                        I have seen a number of cells do a slow bleed to below that without damage,
                        but under load, 2.5 is about it. Because I have a BMS, I charge to 3.6 and
                        balance to 3.45. Anything over 3.4 should be fully charged and then the
                        will settle to 3.35(ish).

                        The beauty of my bms is that it reports high and low cells so I know, real
                        time, exactly what the batteries are up to, standing or under load.

                        Your results sound great.

                        From: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                        [mailto:_solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_
                        (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) ] On
                        Behalf Of russell_fauver
                        Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 8:48 PM
                        To: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                        Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's

                        Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only
                        charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling
                        them
                        on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb
                        rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and
                        it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it
                        approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of
                        them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that
                        as
                        the max setting, 189.6v

                        Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting
                        over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set
                        187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off
                        sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum
                        pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell
                        get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it
                        seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest
                        of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay
                        with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I
                        marked
                        it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.

                        For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted
                        to
                        go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I
                        damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em
                        up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to
                        time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The
                        Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it
                        like
                        an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the
                        AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too
                        :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit
                        this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell.
                        We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at
                        40mph
                        and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in
                        the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was 3.00 and
                        pack
                        voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife
                        in
                        the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.

                        With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees'
                        :-)

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • theoldcars
                        This might become an issue over time. If your charging them with a fairly high current rate they will get out of balance over a period of time. For the 100AH
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 7, 2013
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                          This might become an issue over time. If your charging them with a fairly
                          high current rate they will get out of balance over a period of time.

                          For the 100AH cells one third of an amp charge for 8 hours will not get
                          them over 3.6 volts in series. It will however bring up the low cells. Then
                          you can let them settle down to their resting voltage.

                          Other then to balance I agree there is no reason to float the pack at any
                          voltage.

                          Don Blazer


                          In a message dated 6/7/2013 6:15:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                          cfrkeepr@... writes:

                          One thing Russell, you do not need to float the lithium, in fact avoid it.
                          Once they are charged unplug them, they self discharge very slowly, and
                          they will last longer.
                          Bouty




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • paul dove
                          They don't self discharge at all. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 9, 2013
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                            They don't self discharge at all.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • russell_fauver
                            While I was cycling them before installation I found that they all carried more than the rated AH. Some were quite a bit more. The cell that I was monitoring
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 9, 2013
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                              While I was cycling them before installation I found that they all carried more than the rated AH. Some were quite a bit more. The cell that I was monitoring while driving the car was the one that I damaged and it has the lowest capacity of the bunch. It may not have been the lowest one when they arrived but I fixed that :-) After bench testing that cell it still retained 110ah so I felt pretty comfortable about not hurting the rest of the pack as long as that one was still reading good. Not going to be in the habit of doing a full discharge on a regular basis but since it is a new pack I wanted to check it out.

                              There were several reasons that I wanted to do a full cycle driving test. I wanted to see how full the pack was since I was not charging to the 3.6v that Calb says is full, and I wanted to see what the AH meter read in the car when that cell was empty since I didn't think I was fully charging them. While doing the initial charge I had to break it into 3 charging sessions cause I wanted to keep an eye on it. Well, adding the amp hours together from the 3 charges came to somewhere around 130 so I knew that wasn't right. Also, the charger was reporting one AH figure while the on board meter read a few ah's higher. Then there is just pure curiosity. Do the batteries act the same in series as the did individually? So, I needed a full cycle for that too. The answer to that question, it seems that they do.

                              From what I've been reading on this type of battery its not so much the draining of them, as long as you don't get below 2.5v, as much as it is fully charging them. It seems that when they are packed to their max voltage it does something to them. Don't know what, but cycle life appears to be related more to the number of 'full' charges rather than the number or depth of discharges.

                              Russell


                              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Bliss" <cbliss@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Just noticed you are running 100ah batteries but in your message, you showed discharging 110.08ah. If the numbers are correct, that is running beyond a safe zone, at least with respect to protecting your batteries from damage.
                              >
                              > Conservative would be 80%.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: russell_fauver <russell_fauver@... <mailto:russell_fauver%40yahoo.com> >
                              > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:48 PM
                              > Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ... Parked the car in the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was
                              > 3.00 and pack voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife in the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • paul dove
                              Same goes for charging. Not a lot to gain by trying to get them all fully charged by balancing circuits. It damages cells for very little gain.
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 7, 2013
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                                Same goes for charging. Not a lot to gain by trying to get them all fully charged by balancing circuits. It damages cells for very little gain.




                                ________________________________
                                From: "theoldcars@..." <theoldcars@...>
                                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 8:24 PM
                                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's



                                 
                                CALB low voltage limit under load is 2.5 volts. There is not a lot of
                                capacity between 2.5 and 3.0 volts so its a heavy price to pay for little gain.

                                Don Blazer


                                In a message dated 6/6/2013 9:12:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                cbliss@... writes:

                                First, I drive with a BMS, that said; The 2.78 is an acceptable limit to
                                hit and get home. Generally speaking, permanent damage happens around 2.5.
                                I have seen a number of cells do a slow bleed to below that without damage,
                                but under load, 2.5 is about it. Because I have a BMS, I charge to 3.6 and
                                balance to 3.45. Anything over 3.4 should be fully charged and then the
                                will settle to 3.35(ish).

                                The beauty of my bms is that it reports high and low cells so I know, real
                                time, exactly what the batteries are up to, standing or under load.

                                Your results sound great.

                                From: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                                [mailto:_solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_
                                (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) ] On
                                Behalf Of russell_fauver
                                Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 8:48 PM
                                To: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                                Subject: [solectria_ev] Update on ca100's

                                Been taking it easy on the batteries since I don't have a BMS. I'm only
                                charging to 189.6 volts. How did I pick that number? Well, from cycling
                                them
                                on the bench 3.4v seemed like they were full and the voltage would climb
                                rapidly after that. I set the charger to 19o.4 which is 3.4 per cell and
                                it's the float voltage according to Calb. Then I let it charge. As it
                                approached full I started measuring each cell and just when the first of
                                them started to climb above 3.40 I noted the charge voltage and used that
                                as
                                the max setting, 189.6v

                                Cycling on the bench taught me a lot about the batts. I found that sitting
                                over night after a full charge they would settle down to 3.34v so I set
                                187.1 as the float voltage. I also learned that cell voltage drops off
                                sharply while discharging after 3.00v so I thought I'd use 168 as a minimum
                                pack voltage. One thing I messed up on when cycling them was I let one cell
                                get way too low, down to 1.0v. Thought I ruined it. After cycling it, it
                                seemed like it would be ok but with a slightly lower capacity than the rest
                                of 'em. When tested against others it seemed to hold about 110ah and stay
                                with the others down to 3.0v but it's voltage would drop off first. I
                                marked
                                it with a sharpie and put it in the trunk with the others.

                                For the first few drives I only used about 40-60ah but I knew if I wanted
                                to
                                go for a full discharge charge run I would have to watch the cell that I
                                damaged. I connected a fused wire to each terminal of that cell and ran 'em
                                up between the seats where I could check it with a voltmeter from time to
                                time. This week I had family in town and they all wanted a ride in The
                                Force. Wanting to show them that it is an acceptable 2nd car I drove it
                                like
                                an ICE car. 55mph on country roads, up and down hills with 4 adults and the
                                AC blowing cold air. After 50 miles they were suitably impressed. I was too
                                :-) I drove it to work a couple times and my wife and I drove around a bit
                                this evening to use up a little more power while monitoring that weak cell.
                                We were about 3/4 of a mile from home when the voltage showed 2.78 at
                                40mph
                                and would climb back to 3.05 when coasting without regen. Parked the car in
                                the driveway at 110.08ah and 93.5 miles. Weak cell voltage was 3.00 and
                                pack
                                voltage was 169.9v. With a more conservative foot and just me and my wife
                                in
                                the car I think it'll easily exceed 100 miles per charge.

                                With this kind of range it should be easy to 'keep it between the knees'
                                :-)

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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