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Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

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  • Wade Perry
    Thanks for the help Chip. I see those two pages, that s helpful. I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top). I still have the temp sensor boxes,
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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      Thanks for the help Chip.
      I see those two pages, that's helpful.
      I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
      I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
      unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
      The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
      cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
      when I took the gels out.
      However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
      had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
      junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
      NG5.
      Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
      pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
      just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
      Wade Perry


      On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:

      > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
      > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
      > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
      > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
      > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
      > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
      > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
      > installing under and around your cells?
      >
      >
      > Chip Chandler
      > cchandler66@...
      >
      > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
      > >
      > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
      > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
      > discharge
      > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
      > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
      > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
      > Went
      > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
      > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
      > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
      > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
      > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
      > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
      > >
      > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
      > >
      > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
      > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
      > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
      > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
      > > they're reasonably well balanced.
      > >
      > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
      > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
      > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
      > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
      > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
      > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
      > >
      > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
      > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
      > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
      > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
      > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
      > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
      > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
      > >
      > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
      > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
      > concerned
      > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
      > on
      > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
      > or
      > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
      > > cells.
      > >
      > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
      > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
      > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
      > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
      > Right
      > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
      > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
      > bulb
      > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
      > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
      > >
      > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
      > AC
      > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
      > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
      > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
      > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
      > > me to a resource about this?
      > >
      > > Thanks for the help!
      > >
      > > Wade Perry
      > > 1998 Force
      > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Wade Perry
      Hi Tom. The cells cannot be undercharged , in any sense that would cause them damage anyway. Totally different from Lead. In fact it s better to undercharge
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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        Hi Tom.
        The cells cannot be "undercharged", in any sense that would cause them
        damage anyway. Totally different from Lead. In fact it's better to
        undercharge them a bit, or as Bouty says "stay away from the knees".
        Charging to 3.4v is good. Very conservative, you'd probably be fine
        charging to 3.5v, and get a little extra capacity on the top end.
        (although there's risk of exceeding the operating voltage of the
        controller, which is theoretically 190v, if you interrupt the end of a
        charge and try to drive without letting the cells settle down to resting
        voltage)
        I'm charging up to ~192v right now when the charger enters the Constant
        Voltage phase of the charge. I'd thought that was a little low but based
        on my "pack emptying" experiment and getting a full 60 Ahr out, why change
        anything? (Of course that last Ah wasn't really usable for much, but I did
        make it to 60!) I do plan on setting my new charger to go to 196v though.
        Congratulations by the way on your own transplant. Very impressive and
        very neatly done! (I'm envious actually- looking at the snarl of wires
        beside my own pack)
        Wade



        On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > The Ah "precession" is something I have been very curious about. Our car
        > is up to 2Ah now
        > after charging, and it's pretty cool out in the garage (in the 50s). So
        > it's not real
        > warm, which seems to be what you're indicating causes the charge to
        > terminate before the
        > Ah counter reaches zero.
        >
        > What is your charge profile setup? Mine charges to 3.4V per module
        > (190.4V) at 20A then
        > switches to 190.4V until the current drops below 1A, then the charger
        > turns off. I'm
        > wondering if this is similar to what you're using to charge your pack, and
        > want to make
        > sure I'm not chronically undercharging or something. I was tempted to
        > change the charge
        > so that it used a lower termination current, just in case stopping at 1A
        > was too early and
        > causing undercharging.
        >
        > At least I know that others see a similar precession on charge, so I'm
        > less concerned than
        > I might be, but I'd like to know what your charge profile does. You are
        > doing very well
        > with your pack and I could do worse than emulate you!
        >
        > -Tom
        >
        >
        > On 12/2/2012 9:26 AM, d. Bouton Baldridge wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Wade,
        > > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
        > readings are
        > > perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having
        > only +/-.1 v or so
        > > from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the
        > knees and your
        > > system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter
        > issue, It has been
        > > my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining
        > capacity. In my case
        > > I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack
        > warming up; for me
        > > it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter
        > season my charge
        > > resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah
        > each cycle when
        > > the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you
        > charge for a few
        > > hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the
        > voltage is
        > > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than the
        > previous Ahour
        > > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
        > or aging. But
        > > it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and
        > had the
        > > automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight
        > precession is only an
        > > annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I
        > have a pretty long
        > > warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so
        > I wouldn't have
        > > to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as
        > any Pb pack would
        > > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
        > might find some
        > > of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project
        > FWIW,
        > > Bouty
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@... <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com>>
        > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
        > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
        > >
        > >
        > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
        > >
        > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
        > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
        > discharge
        > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
        > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
        > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
        > Went
        > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
        > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
        > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
        > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
        > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
        > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
        > >
        > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
        > >
        > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
        > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
        > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
        > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
        > > they're reasonably well balanced.
        > >
        > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
        > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
        > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
        > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
        > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
        > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
        > >
        > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
        > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
        > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
        > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
        > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
        > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
        > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
        > >
        > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
        > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
        > concerned
        > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
        > on
        > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
        > or
        > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
        > > cells.
        > >
        > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
        > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
        > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
        > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
        > Right
        > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
        > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
        > bulb
        > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
        > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
        > >
        > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
        > AC
        > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
        > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
        > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
        > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
        > > me to a resource about this?
        > >
        > > Thanks for the help!
        > >
        > > Wade Perry
        > > 1998 Force
        > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Thomas Hudson
        > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
        > http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tom Hudson
        Thanks for the info, Wade. I m lucky in that my Force was upgraded to NiCD in 2001, so all the components are fine up to 250V. I may try a conservative pack
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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          Thanks for the info, Wade. I'm lucky in that my Force was upgraded to NiCD in 2001, so
          all the components are fine up to 250V. I may try a conservative "pack emptying" run at
          some point soon just so we know what we can expect out of the pack in a pinch, but for the
          time being it's good to know it's working as it should. I might put in a simple reset
          button somewhere for the Ah meter to deal with the "precession" business.

          -Tom

          On 12/3/2012 2:56 PM, Wade Perry wrote:
          > Hi Tom.
          > The cells cannot be "undercharged", in any sense that would cause them
          > damage anyway. Totally different from Lead. In fact it's better to
          > undercharge them a bit, or as Bouty says "stay away from the knees".
          > Charging to 3.4v is good. Very conservative, you'd probably be fine
          > charging to 3.5v, and get a little extra capacity on the top end.
          > (although there's risk of exceeding the operating voltage of the
          > controller, which is theoretically 190v, if you interrupt the end of a
          > charge and try to drive without letting the cells settle down to resting
          > voltage)
          > I'm charging up to ~192v right now when the charger enters the Constant
          > Voltage phase of the charge. I'd thought that was a little low but based
          > on my "pack emptying" experiment and getting a full 60 Ahr out, why change
          > anything? (Of course that last Ah wasn't really usable for much, but I did
          > make it to 60!) I do plan on setting my new charger to go to 196v though.
          > Congratulations by the way on your own transplant. Very impressive and
          > very neatly done! (I'm envious actually- looking at the snarl of wires
          > beside my own pack)
          > Wade
          >
          >
          >
          > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
          >
          >> **
          >>
          >>
          >> The Ah "precession" is something I have been very curious about. Our car
          >> is up to 2Ah now
          >> after charging, and it's pretty cool out in the garage (in the 50s). So
          >> it's not real
          >> warm, which seems to be what you're indicating causes the charge to
          >> terminate before the
          >> Ah counter reaches zero.
          >>
          >> What is your charge profile setup? Mine charges to 3.4V per module
          >> (190.4V) at 20A then
          >> switches to 190.4V until the current drops below 1A, then the charger
          >> turns off. I'm
          >> wondering if this is similar to what you're using to charge your pack, and
          >> want to make
          >> sure I'm not chronically undercharging or something. I was tempted to
          >> change the charge
          >> so that it used a lower termination current, just in case stopping at 1A
          >> was too early and
          >> causing undercharging.
          >>
          >> At least I know that others see a similar precession on charge, so I'm
          >> less concerned than
          >> I might be, but I'd like to know what your charge profile does. You are
          >> doing very well
          >> with your pack and I could do worse than emulate you!
          >>
          >> -Tom
          >>
          >>
          >> On 12/2/2012 9:26 AM, d. Bouton Baldridge wrote:
          >>> Hi Wade,
          >>> In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
          >> readings are
          >>> perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having
          >> only +/-.1 v or so
          >>> from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the
          >> knees and your
          >>> system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter
          >> issue, It has been
          >>> my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining
          >> capacity. In my case
          >>> I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack
          >> warming up; for me
          >>> it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter
          >> season my charge
          >>> resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah
          >> each cycle when
          >>> the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you
          >> charge for a few
          >>> hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the
          >> voltage is
          >>> slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than the
          >> previous Ahour
          >>> reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
          >> or aging. But
          >>> it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and
          >> had the
          >>> automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight
          >> precession is only an
          >>> annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I
          >> have a pretty long
          >>> warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so
          >> I wouldn't have
          >>> to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as
          >> any Pb pack would
          >>> last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
          >> might find some
          >>> of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project
          >> FWIW,
          >>> Bouty
          >>>
          >>> ________________________________
          >>> From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@... <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com>>
          >>> To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
          >>> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
          >>> Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
          >>>
          >>> I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
          >>> from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
          >> discharge
          >>> a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
          >>> probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
          >>> So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
          >> Went
          >>> well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
          >>> did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
          >>> Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
          >>> around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
          >>> 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
          >>> Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
          >>>
          >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
          >>> The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
          >>> went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
          >>> .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
          >>> finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
          >>> they're reasonably well balanced.
          >>>
          >>> One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
          >>> measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
          >>> Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
          >>> factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
          >>> out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
          >>> This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
          >>>
          >>> Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
          >>> would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
          >>> were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
          >>> all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
          >>> counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
          >>> undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
          >>> in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
          >>>
          >>> This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
          >>> charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
          >> concerned
          >>> because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
          >> on
          >>> the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
          >> or
          >>> something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
          >>> cells.
          >>>
          >>> Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
          >>> with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
          >>> taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
          >>> together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
          >> Right
          >>> now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
          >>> around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
          >> bulb
          >>> back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
          >>> box, whenever the car's plugged in.
          >>>
          >>> So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
          >> AC
          >>> power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
          >>> August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
          >>> searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
          >>> where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
          >>> me to a resource about this?
          >>>
          >>> Thanks for the help!
          >>>
          >>> Wade Perry
          >>> 1998 Force
          >>> 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
          >>>
          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>>
          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>>
          >>>
          >> --
          >> Thomas Hudson
          >> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
          >> http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Thomas Hudson
          http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
          http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
        • Wade Perry
          Hi Wolf. Yes that was my understanding. It s been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing, like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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            Hi Wolf.
            Yes that was my understanding.
            It's been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing,
            like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard skating rink.
            But I knew the cells wouldn't be as cold as the outside air because I've
            been driving them, and recharging, both of which should generate some heat
            within the cell itself. However they don't generate all that much heat
            really even when you're pushing them, which a Force isn't really capable of
            doing anyway, so I was nervous. The phenomenon that Bouty and Tom are
            calling "precession" was getting me concerned. Especially because it
            happened when it was COLDER. That's why I was so happy to get the full
            60Ahr out... But the full capacity might be partly because I'm breaking
            the cells in too.

            Wolf a question for you- What do you think is the maximum voltage the
            AC325 controller can handle? I have 56 cells in the car now, could I add
            any more??? :)

            Bouty- I don't understand why you should see a higher incidence of
            precession when it's warmer, while I see a higher incidence when it's
            colder.

            Wade


            On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:

            > I would not charge lithium ion batteries that are below freezing, you will
            > electroplate metallic lithium and ruin the battery.
            >
            > Do a quick Google search on electroplating lithium when charging below
            > freezing.
            > On Dec 2, 2012 12:47 AM, "Wade Perry" <perrypeas@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
            > >
            > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
            > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
            > discharge
            > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
            > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
            > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
            > Went
            > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
            > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
            > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
            > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
            > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
            > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
            > >
            > >
            > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
            > >
            > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
            > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
            > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
            > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
            > > they're reasonably well balanced.
            > >
            > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
            > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
            > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
            > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
            > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
            > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
            > >
            > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
            > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
            > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
            > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
            > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
            > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
            > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
            > >
            > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
            > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
            > concerned
            > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
            > on
            > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
            > or
            > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
            > > cells.
            > >
            > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
            > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
            > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
            > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
            > Right
            > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
            > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
            > bulb
            > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
            > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
            > >
            > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
            > AC
            > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
            > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
            > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
            > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
            > > me to a resource about this?
            > >
            > > Thanks for the help!
            > >
            > > Wade Perry
            > > 1998 Force
            > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Wade Perry
            Thanks Bouty. I would never have considered a smaller pack size had it not been for you. And as it turns out I don t need the extra range. :) One
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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              Thanks Bouty.
              I would never have considered a "smaller" pack size had it not been for
              you. And as it turns out I don't need the extra range. :)
              One difference- these CALB CA cells can handle anything the Force could
              ever throw at them, I usually drive quite aggressively in "Normal" and use
              the "Power" setting when I need to. Got the little car up to 117km/hr last
              night, that's a record! 72.7 mph.
              Given the lighter pack size of the 60s, plus the current they're capable of
              delivering, I think I might have the fastest stock Solectria Force
              transplant to lithium in the WORLD. (that is until someone decides to do
              the 40Ah CALB CA version- ahem)
              Wade


              On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 8:26 AM, d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Hi Wade,
              > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
              > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
              > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is
              > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just
              > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that
              > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have
              > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;
              > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the
              > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on
              > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80
              > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack
              > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is
              > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than the
              > previous Ahour
              > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
              > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
              > routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years
              > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact
              > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
              > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
              > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
              > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
              > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on
              > your project FWIW,
              > Bouty
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
              > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
              > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
              >
              >
              >
              > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
              >
              > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
              > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
              > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
              > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
              > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
              > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
              > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
              > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
              > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
              > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
              > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
              >
              > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
              >
              > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
              > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
              > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
              > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
              > they're reasonably well balanced.
              >
              > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
              > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
              > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
              > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
              > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
              > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
              >
              > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
              > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
              > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
              > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
              > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
              > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
              > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
              >
              > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
              > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
              > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
              > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
              > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
              > cells.
              >
              > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
              > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
              > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
              > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
              > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
              > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
              > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
              > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
              >
              > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
              > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
              > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
              > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
              > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
              > me to a resource about this?
              >
              > Thanks for the help!
              >
              > Wade Perry
              > 1998 Force
              > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Chandler Chip
              Wade: The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I ll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                Wade:
                The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I'll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex circuit board with some of the leads going out to the thermal management system. Matching that circuitry with your Zivan charger might be difficult, but you might go a simpler route as Solectria did in the 1996 Force, just fused leads off the power input before the power leads go to the charger. My 1996 has dual BC1000 chargers, taking only 110 volts, and in the junction box two 12amp 250 volt fuses on the two leads to the temp sensor boxes. Your Zivan and heater pads probably take 240 volts.

                My temp readings are showing quite a difference, as it gets colder here, between the center of the pack and outside edge, both after running and charging. I don't know what long term effects this might have on cell conditions and longevity, that is, having the center cells working at a higher temperature than the cells at the edges (also this would make a complex scenario for precession). I have no insulation (and no room for it), but would recommend as much insulation as you can install, under and around. I found when I tried originally heating lead acid, the electric bill was significant even with insulation. I believe the temp sensors are set for 70F degrees, and it would be wonderful if they could be adjusted to say 40F or replaced for 40F. I am still getting reasonable performance with the center pack starting temp at 25F with 1.5Ah/mile (TS 160Ah cells).

                Chip Chandler
                cchandler66@...

                On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:

                > Thanks for the help Chip.
                > I see those two pages, that's helpful.
                > I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
                > I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
                > unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
                > The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
                > cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
                > when I took the gels out.
                > However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
                > had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
                > junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
                > NG5.
                > Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
                > pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
                > just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
                > Wade Perry
                >
                > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:
                >
                > > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
                > > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
                > > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
                > > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
                > > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
                > > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
                > > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
                > > installing under and around your cells?
                > >
                > >
                > > Chip Chandler
                > > cchandler66@...
                > >
                > > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                > > >
                > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                > > discharge
                > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                > > Went
                > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                > > >
                > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                > > >
                > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                > > >
                > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                > > >
                > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                > > >
                > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                > > concerned
                > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                > > on
                > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                > > or
                > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                > > > cells.
                > > >
                > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                > > Right
                > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                > > bulb
                > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                > > >
                > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                > > AC
                > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                > > > me to a resource about this?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for the help!
                > > >
                > > > Wade Perry
                > > > 1998 Force
                > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Wade Perry
                Rex- I don t think the general consensus includes 60Ahr. Yet. I only know of two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr. (Bouty & me) Would like to be
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                  Rex-
                  I don't think the "general consensus" includes 60Ahr. Yet. I only know of
                  two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr. (Bouty & me) Would like to be
                  enlightened about any more out there...
                  I see you running through the same thought process as I did. 40Ahr is
                  definitely small. But you of all people should know, having driven
                  electric for so long in the first place, and even tracked your Ahr usage.
                  I didn't have that benefit, and I can tell you it wasn't wrong.
                  The only thing I'd recommend is to consider putting in as high a voltage as
                  you can. 56 cells is really fun- the "sport" version of the Solectria
                  Force. Plus it results in greater range too- the higher voltage means the
                  Ahr counter moves slower.
                  Also the 60s are a different shape than the 40s. Taller and skinnier. I'm
                  not sure what the height of the front box is, but with the smaller
                  footprint you could definitely fit more of them in.
                  If you do a "high-voltage" transplant using CA 40s, you'd have a very light
                  and zippy car.

                  Putting all the cells in the front is also a good idea, and I wish I had
                  that too. When there's snow on the roads I really notice the lack of
                  traction. I have a hard time getting going in front of my house. I have
                  one gel cell in the front still just to give me some weight up there. I'm
                  thinking that after a year of this, when I have the sense that the cells
                  really are not going to drift and have some experience with it, I may move
                  them up to the front where they're very difficult to actually measure (or
                  as many as I can fit up there).

                  I remember reading Bouty's email with disbelief that he hadn't even checked
                  the voltage on the cells for 18 months! How irresponsible! Is he trying
                  to wreck his batteries?
                  Now I'm quite a ways down that road myself.

                  Wade



                  On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > I have one question for Bouty:
                  > How many miles do you have on your pack?
                  >
                  > One question for the group:
                  > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?
                  >
                  > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                  > miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                  > 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very
                  > short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per
                  > mile. I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when
                  > the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out.
                  > I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple
                  > of reasons:
                  >
                  > 1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                  > front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the
                  > 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack
                  > and the controller.
                  >
                  > 2. The pack cost
                  > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                  > around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                  > batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207
                  > approx.)
                  >
                  > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                  > lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                  > have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                  > like it is permanently going down a hill.
                  >
                  > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                  > "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                  > force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they
                  > should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the
                  > cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/
                  >
                  > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                  > I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                  > between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to
                  > 35Ahrs.
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>
                  > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Wade,
                  > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
                  > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                  > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is
                  > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just
                  > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that
                  > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have
                  > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;
                  > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the
                  > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on
                  > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80
                  > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack
                  > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is
                  > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
                  > the previous Ahour
                  > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                  > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                  > routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years
                  > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact
                  > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                  > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                  > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                  > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
                  > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on
                  > your project FWIW,
                  > Bouty
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                  > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                  > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                  >
                  > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                  > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                  > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                  > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                  > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                  > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                  > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                  > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                  > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                  > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                  > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                  >
                  > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                  >
                  > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                  > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                  > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                  > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                  > they're reasonably well balanced.
                  >
                  > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                  > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                  > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                  > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                  > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                  > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                  >
                  > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                  > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                  > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                  > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                  > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                  > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                  > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                  >
                  > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                  > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                  > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                  > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                  > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                  > cells.
                  >
                  > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                  > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                  > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                  > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                  > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                  > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                  > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                  > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                  >
                  > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                  > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                  > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                  > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                  > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                  > me to a resource about this?
                  >
                  > Thanks for the help!
                  >
                  > Wade Perry
                  > 1998 Force
                  > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Rex Allison
                  Wade, I think the issue of cell balancing, monitoring, or driving blind so to speak is still forming as users gain more experience. I m not as daring as Bouty,
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Wade,

                    I think the issue of cell balancing, monitoring, or driving blind so to speak is still forming as users gain more experience. I'm not as daring as Bouty, so I'm still in favor of monitoring, but I read somewhere (this is not my original idea) that monitoring in groups of 4 is another way to simplify your setup, especially if you are not pushing your pack to it's limit. The advantage of groups of 4 cells, basically battery monitoring vs cell monitoring, is that a weak cell will still show up and you can use one of the existing Pb monitoring systems such as the Paktrakr. This is just another system tradeoff with pros and cons.

                    As far as accessing the front battery box. I gave up my AC unit years ago to a fellow Force owner (60lb less to lug around), so I just have the controller in the way. Another item on my todo list is to come up with a hinged mount for the controller so that the battery box can be easily accessed. I haven't come up with any solid solution yet...

                    Rex




                    ________________________________
                    From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 3:38 PM
                    Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                    Rex-
                    I don't think the "general consensus" includes 60Ahr.  Yet.  I only know of
                    two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr.  (Bouty & me)  Would like to be
                    enlightened about any more out there...
                    I see you running through the same thought process as I did.  40Ahr is
                    definitely small.  But you of all people should know, having driven
                    electric for so long in the first place, and even tracked your Ahr usage.
                    I didn't have that benefit, and I can tell you it wasn't wrong.
                    The only thing I'd recommend is to consider putting in as high a voltage as
                    you can.  56 cells is really fun- the "sport" version of the Solectria
                    Force.  Plus it results in greater range too- the higher voltage means the
                    Ahr counter moves slower.
                    Also the 60s are a different shape than the 40s.  Taller and skinnier.  I'm
                    not sure what the height of the front box is, but with the smaller
                    footprint you could definitely fit more of them in.
                    If you do a "high-voltage" transplant using CA 40s, you'd have a very light
                    and zippy car.

                    Putting all the cells in the front is also a good idea, and I wish I had
                    that too.  When there's snow on the roads I really notice the lack of
                    traction.  I have a hard time getting going in front of my house.  I have
                    one gel cell in the front still just to give me some weight up there.  I'm
                    thinking that after a year of this, when I have the sense that the cells
                    really are not going to drift and have some experience with it, I may move
                    them up to the front where they're very difficult to actually measure (or
                    as many as I can fit up there).

                    I remember reading Bouty's email with disbelief that he hadn't even checked
                    the voltage on the cells for 18 months!  How irresponsible!  Is he trying
                    to wreck his batteries?
                    Now I'm quite a ways down that road myself.

                    Wade



                    On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > I have one question for Bouty:
                    > How many miles do you have on your pack?
                    >
                    > One question for the group:
                    > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?
                    >
                    > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                    > miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                    > 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very
                    > short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per
                    > mile.  I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when
                    > the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out.
                    > I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple
                    > of reasons:
                    >
                    > 1.  If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                    > front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the
                    > 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack
                    > and the controller.
                    >
                    > 2. The pack cost
                    > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                    > around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping.  13 Deka
                    > batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207
                    > approx.)
                    >
                    > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                    > lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                    > have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                    > like it is permanently going down a hill.
                    >
                    > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                    > "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                    > force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they
                    > should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the
                    > cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/
                    >
                    > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                    > I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                    > between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to
                    > 35Ahrs.
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>
                    > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                    >
                    > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Wade,
                    >  In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
                    > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                    > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is
                    > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just
                    > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that
                    > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have
                    > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;
                    > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the
                    > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on
                    > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80
                    > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack
                    > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is
                    > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
                    > the previous Ahour
                    > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                    > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                    > routinely and had the automatic reset.  I am a few months shy of 4 years
                    > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact
                    > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                    > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                    > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                    > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
                    > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on
                    > your project FWIW,
                    > Bouty
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                    > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                    > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                    >
                    > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                    > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                    > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                    > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                    > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                    > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                    > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                    > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                    > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                    > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                    > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                    >
                    > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                    >
                    > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                    > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                    > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                    > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                    > they're reasonably well balanced.
                    >
                    > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                    > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                    > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                    > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                    > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                    > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                    >
                    > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                    > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                    > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                    > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                    > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                    > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                    > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                    >
                    > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                    > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                    > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                    > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                    > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                    > cells.
                    >
                    > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                    > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                    > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                    > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                    > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                    > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                    > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                    > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                    >
                    > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                    > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                    > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                    > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                    > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                    > me to a resource about this?
                    >
                    > Thanks for the help!
                    >
                    > Wade Perry
                    > 1998 Force
                    > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Gerry Gaydos
                    Hey, you don t need to monitor all the modules in your EVs battery pack,... only the ones you want to keep.There has yet to be made a battery of any type that
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hey, you don't need to monitor all the modules in your EVs battery pack,... only the ones you want to keep.There has yet to be made a battery of any type that has any loyalty to it's owner, just because he/she spent some hard earned money. They will tend to do what ever the hell they want, unless you keep an eye on the little buggers and help them play well with others.

                      Gerry
                      "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto�, Electrifying Cars! 250 598 3100

                      To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                      From: ev64bug@...
                      Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:04:18 -0800
                      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System


























                      Wade,



                      I think the issue of cell balancing, monitoring, or driving blind so to speak is still forming as users gain more experience. I'm not as daring as Bouty, so I'm still in favor of monitoring, but I read somewhere (this is not my original idea) that monitoring in groups of 4 is another way to simplify your setup, especially if you are not pushing your pack to it's limit. The advantage of groups of 4 cells, basically battery monitoring vs cell monitoring, is that a weak cell will still show up and you can use one of the existing Pb monitoring systems such as the Paktrakr. This is just another system tradeoff with pros and cons.



                      As far as accessing the front battery box. I gave up my AC unit years ago to a fellow Force owner (60lb less to lug around), so I just have the controller in the way. Another item on my todo list is to come up with a hinged mount for the controller so that the battery box can be easily accessed. I haven't come up with any solid solution yet...



                      Rex



                      ________________________________

                      From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>

                      To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com

                      Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 3:38 PM

                      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System



                      Rex-

                      I don't think the "general consensus" includes 60Ahr. Yet. I only know of

                      two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr. (Bouty & me) Would like to be

                      enlightened about any more out there...

                      I see you running through the same thought process as I did. 40Ahr is

                      definitely small. But you of all people should know, having driven

                      electric for so long in the first place, and even tracked your Ahr usage.

                      I didn't have that benefit, and I can tell you it wasn't wrong.

                      The only thing I'd recommend is to consider putting in as high a voltage as

                      you can. 56 cells is really fun- the "sport" version of the Solectria

                      Force. Plus it results in greater range too- the higher voltage means the

                      Ahr counter moves slower.

                      Also the 60s are a different shape than the 40s. Taller and skinnier. I'm

                      not sure what the height of the front box is, but with the smaller

                      footprint you could definitely fit more of them in.

                      If you do a "high-voltage" transplant using CA 40s, you'd have a very light

                      and zippy car.



                      Putting all the cells in the front is also a good idea, and I wish I had

                      that too. When there's snow on the roads I really notice the lack of

                      traction. I have a hard time getting going in front of my house. I have

                      one gel cell in the front still just to give me some weight up there. I'm

                      thinking that after a year of this, when I have the sense that the cells

                      really are not going to drift and have some experience with it, I may move

                      them up to the front where they're very difficult to actually measure (or

                      as many as I can fit up there).



                      I remember reading Bouty's email with disbelief that he hadn't even checked

                      the voltage on the cells for 18 months! How irresponsible! Is he trying

                      to wreck his batteries?

                      Now I'm quite a ways down that road myself.



                      Wade



                      On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:



                      > **

                      >

                      >

                      > I have one question for Bouty:

                      > How many miles do you have on your pack?

                      >

                      > One question for the group:

                      > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                      >

                      > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000

                      > miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to

                      > 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very

                      > short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per

                      > mile. I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when

                      > the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out.

                      > I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple

                      > of reasons:

                      >

                      > 1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the

                      > front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the

                      > 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack

                      > and the controller.

                      >

                      > 2. The pack cost

                      > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are

                      > around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka

                      > batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207

                      > approx.)

                      >

                      > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161

                      > lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to

                      > have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel

                      > like it is permanently going down a hill.

                      >

                      > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the

                      > "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the

                      > force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they

                      > should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the

                      > cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/

                      >

                      > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but

                      > I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use

                      > between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to

                      > 35Ahrs.

                      >

                      > ________________________________

                      > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>

                      > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>

                      > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM

                      >

                      > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Hi Wade,

                      > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your

                      > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity

                      > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is

                      > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just

                      > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that

                      > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have

                      > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;

                      > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the

                      > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on

                      > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80

                      > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack

                      > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is

                      > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than

                      > the previous Ahour

                      > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in

                      > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged

                      > routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years

                      > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact

                      > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just

                      > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember

                      > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would

                      > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I

                      > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on

                      > your project FWIW,

                      > Bouty

                      >

                      > ________________________________

                      > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>

                      > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com

                      > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM

                      > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                      >

                      >

                      > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                      >

                      > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home

                      > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge

                      > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is

                      > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.

                      > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went

                      > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I

                      > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.

                      > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was

                      > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to

                      > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.

                      > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-

                      >

                      > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html

                      >

                      > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I

                      > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was

                      > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was

                      > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So

                      > they're reasonably well balanced.

                      >

                      > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were

                      > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.

                      > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the

                      > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood

                      > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.

                      > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                      >

                      > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It

                      > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they

                      > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped

                      > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my

                      > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was

                      > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged

                      > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                      >

                      > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by

                      > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned

                      > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on

                      > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or

                      > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the

                      > cells.

                      >

                      > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is

                      > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are

                      > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put

                      > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right

                      > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all

                      > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb

                      > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery

                      > box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                      >

                      > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC

                      > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in

                      > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've

                      > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about

                      > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point

                      > me to a resource about this?

                      >

                      > Thanks for the help!

                      >

                      > Wade Perry

                      > 1998 Force

                      > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      >

                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      ------------------------------------



                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • geo_homsy2
                      Chip- are you confusing the charger s thermal monitoring system with the thermal management system? In my 1999 force, the factory stock condition was: * two
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                        Chip-

                        are you confusing the charger's thermal monitoring system with the thermal management system?

                        In my 1999 force, the factory stock condition was:

                        * two NTC thermistors mounted inside ring lugs, one screwed onto a battery post in each box, plugged into the charger interface box you describe.

                        * two thermal management boxes, small black plastic, 1x2x4", velcro'd to the top of the batteries, again one in front, one in the rear. These boxes each have a bi-metallic type thermal snap-switch, to turn on the heating pads. They are powered from the AC junction box on the rear-left fender well.

                        It is the latter system I believe Wade is referring to. It is completely independent of the charger.

                        //Geo

                        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wade:
                        > The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I'll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex circuit board with some of the leads going out to the thermal management system. Matching that circuitry with your Zivan charger might be difficult, but you might go a simpler route as Solectria did in the 1996 Force, just fused leads off the power input before the power leads go to the charger. My 1996 has dual BC1000 chargers, taking only 110 volts, and in the junction box two 12amp 250 volt fuses on the two leads to the temp sensor boxes. Your Zivan and heater pads probably take 240 volts.
                        >
                        > My temp readings are showing quite a difference, as it gets colder here, between the center of the pack and outside edge, both after running and charging. I don't know what long term effects this might have on cell conditions and longevity, that is, having the center cells working at a higher temperature than the cells at the edges (also this would make a complex scenario for precession). I have no insulation (and no room for it), but would recommend as much insulation as you can install, under and around. I found when I tried originally heating lead acid, the electric bill was significant even with insulation. I believe the temp sensors are set for 70F degrees, and it would be wonderful if they could be adjusted to say 40F or replaced for 40F. I am still getting reasonable performance with the center pack starting temp at 25F with 1.5Ah/mile (TS 160Ah cells).
                        >
                        > Chip Chandler
                        > cchandler66@...
                        >
                        > On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Thanks for the help Chip.
                        > > I see those two pages, that's helpful.
                        > > I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
                        > > I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
                        > > unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
                        > > The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
                        > > cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
                        > > when I took the gels out.
                        > > However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
                        > > had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
                        > > junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
                        > > NG5.
                        > > Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
                        > > pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
                        > > just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
                        > > Wade Perry
                        > >
                        > > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
                        > > > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
                        > > > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
                        > > > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
                        > > > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
                        > > > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
                        > > > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
                        > > > installing under and around your cells?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Chip Chandler
                        > > > cchandler66@...
                        > > >
                        > > > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                        > > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                        > > > discharge
                        > > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                        > > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                        > > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                        > > > Went
                        > > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                        > > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                        > > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                        > > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                        > > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                        > > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                        > > > >
                        > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                        > > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                        > > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                        > > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                        > > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                        > > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                        > > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                        > > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                        > > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                        > > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                        > > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                        > > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                        > > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                        > > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                        > > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                        > > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                        > > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                        > > > concerned
                        > > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                        > > > on
                        > > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                        > > > or
                        > > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                        > > > > cells.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                        > > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                        > > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                        > > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                        > > > Right
                        > > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                        > > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                        > > > bulb
                        > > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                        > > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                        > > > AC
                        > > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                        > > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                        > > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                        > > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                        > > > > me to a resource about this?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks for the help!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Wade Perry
                        > > > > 1998 Force
                        > > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Wolf
                        The internals, (caps, MOSFETs) are rated at 250 Volts, but I would not recommend running that close to the limit... I don t have a working AMC325 at the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                          The internals, (caps, MOSFETs) are rated at 250 Volts, but I would not
                          recommend running that close to the limit...

                          I don't have a working AMC325 at the moment, but of you connect to one with
                          the AMC program, and then download the config file.

                          Change the high voltage limit to 999 and then the program will change it to
                          the max allowed voltage.

                          On the AMC320 it is 180 volts.

                          Using the ratio 180V/12 = 15V
                          Then the AMC325 should be 15*15 = 225 Volts max.

                          Due so at your own risk. ;)
                          On Dec 3, 2012 3:30 PM, "Wade Perry" <perrypeas@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Wolf.
                          > Yes that was my understanding.
                          > It's been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing,
                          > like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard skating rink.
                          > But I knew the cells wouldn't be as cold as the outside air because I've
                          > been driving them, and recharging, both of which should generate some heat
                          > within the cell itself. However they don't generate all that much heat
                          > really even when you're pushing them, which a Force isn't really capable of
                          > doing anyway, so I was nervous. The phenomenon that Bouty and Tom are
                          > calling "precession" was getting me concerned. Especially because it
                          > happened when it was COLDER. That's why I was so happy to get the full
                          > 60Ahr out... But the full capacity might be partly because I'm breaking
                          > the cells in too.
                          >
                          > Wolf a question for you- What do you think is the maximum voltage the
                          > AC325 controller can handle? I have 56 cells in the car now, could I add
                          > any more??? :)
                          >
                          > Bouty- I don't understand why you should see a higher incidence of
                          > precession when it's warmer, while I see a higher incidence when it's
                          > colder.
                          >
                          > Wade
                          >
                          > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I would not charge lithium ion batteries that are below freezing, you
                          > will
                          > > electroplate metallic lithium and ruin the battery.
                          > >
                          > > Do a quick Google search on electroplating lithium when charging below
                          > > freezing.
                          > > On Dec 2, 2012 12:47 AM, "Wade Perry" <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > **
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                          > > >
                          > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back
                          > home
                          > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                          > > discharge
                          > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                          > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                          > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                          > > Went
                          > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                          > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                          > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                          > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it
                          > to
                          > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                          > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                          > > >
                          > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done
                          > I
                          > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                          > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I
                          > was
                          > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05.
                          > So
                          > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                          > > >
                          > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                          > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                          > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                          > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                          > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                          > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                          > > >
                          > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                          > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                          > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA
                          > dipped
                          > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on
                          > my
                          > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                          > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but
                          > plugged
                          > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                          > > >
                          > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently
                          > by
                          > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                          > > concerned
                          > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still
                          > left
                          > > on
                          > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                          > > or
                          > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                          > > > cells.
                          > > >
                          > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                          > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells
                          > are
                          > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                          > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                          > > Right
                          > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                          > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                          > > bulb
                          > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                          > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                          > > >
                          > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                          > > AC
                          > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back
                          > in
                          > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing.
                          > I've
                          > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                          > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone
                          > point
                          > > > me to a resource about this?
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks for the help!
                          > > >
                          > > > Wade Perry
                          > > > 1998 Force
                          > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • d. Bouton Baldridge
                          Hi Rex, you have done well getting 7 years and 22,000 miles. I have not been so fortunate with Pb. Ok not too sure of the miles maybe 3000. Since the main
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                            Hi Rex, you have done well getting 7 years and 22,000 miles. I have not been so fortunate with Pb.
                            Ok not too sure of the miles maybe 3000. Since the main reason for a small pack was cost I also adopted a different attitude for the car. Being an early model the 30 -40 mile range on 90 ah  l/a is still pretty much possible with the 40 Ah lithium. Not needing to drive that much every a day any longer (retired) I wanted to find a solution to the problem of replacing packs every 18 months or 2 years. My goal was to get the overall cost of driving electric down, and replacing packs so frequently was the number one culprit. Since my lithium pack cost just a bit more than the Pb four years ago, I feel that my goal is proving to be successful. I have added the solar feature to not only reduce the cost more, but I wanted to prove to myself that it could be done without using supplemental power which now influences my driving as well. I will have driven 2.5 years without even plugging in. I drive only the distance that will allow me to recharge from the sun
                            the next day, which is qute a challenge during the winter. So distance driving is for somebody else. Range anxiety is an issue all of us EVers  have to deal with in our public image. If you want to go long distances in an EV it can be done but at a steep price for a large pack, but how much do you really need? Those 3000 miles were hundreds of short trips like the average driver does every day; if an ICE were used they would be the least efficient and most polluting miles, not so with an EV. Hope this helps.
                            Bouty



                            ________________________________
                            From: Rex Allison <ev64bug@...>
                            To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 11:33 AM
                            Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                             
                            I have one question for Bouty:
                            How many miles do you have on your pack?

                            One question for the group:
                            Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                            I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000 miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.  I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of reasons:

                            1.  If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and the controller.

                            2. The pack cost
                            is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping.  13 Deka batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                            3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161 lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel like it is permanently going down a hill.

                            4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/

                            I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                            ________________________________
                            From: d. Bouton Baldridge <mailto:cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com>
                            To: "mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                            Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System


                             
                            Hi Wade,
                             In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
                            the previous Ahour
                            reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and had the automatic reset.  I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project FWIW,
                            Bouty

                            ________________________________
                            From: Wade Perry <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com>
                            To: mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                            Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                             
                            Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                            I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                            from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                            a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                            probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                            So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                            well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                            did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                            Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                            around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                            59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                            Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html

                            The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                            went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                            .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                            finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                            they're reasonably well balanced.

                            One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                            measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                            Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                            factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                            out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                            This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                            Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                            would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                            were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                            all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                            counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                            undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                            in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                            This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                            charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                            because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                            the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                            something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                            cells.

                            Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                            with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                            taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                            together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                            now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                            around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                            back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                            box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                            So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                            power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                            August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                            searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                            where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                            me to a resource about this?

                            Thanks for the help!

                            Wade Perry
                            1998 Force
                            56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • d. Bouton Baldridge
                            Hi Wade,  It is only a theory but I think that while you are charging at the higher rate steady state it tends to heat the cell electrolite higher than when
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                              Hi Wade,
                               It is only a theory but I think that while you are charging at the higher rate steady state it tends to heat the cell electrolite higher than when you were driving; in my case the cells are heated by the high outside temps and cabin. A warmer cell increases the voltage and thus the charger reaches voltage limit before the entire Ah capacity is reached just slightly less. I have withnesses my cell arround 90 degrees F and the car acts like it is in power mode good acceleration and the converse is true when they are below 50 F, so I know that these cells behave this way. So your cells are colder before charging, I think.
                              Bouty 


                              ________________________________
                              From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 4:30 PM
                              Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                               
                              Hi Wolf.
                              Yes that was my understanding.
                              It's been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing,
                              like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard skating rink.
                              But I knew the cells wouldn't be as cold as the outside air because I've
                              been driving them, and recharging, both of which should generate some heat
                              within the cell itself. However they don't generate all that much heat
                              really even when you're pushing them, which a Force isn't really capable of
                              doing anyway, so I was nervous. The phenomenon that Bouty and Tom are
                              calling "precession" was getting me concerned. Especially because it
                              happened when it was COLDER. That's why I was so happy to get the full
                              60Ahr out... But the full capacity might be partly because I'm breaking
                              the cells in too.

                              Wolf a question for you- What do you think is the maximum voltage the
                              AC325 controller can handle? I have 56 cells in the car now, could I add
                              any more??? :)

                              Bouty- I don't understand why you should see a higher incidence of
                              precession when it's warmer, while I see a higher incidence when it's
                              colder.

                              Wade

                              On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Wolf <mailto:wolf%40wolftronix.com> wrote:

                              > I would not charge lithium ion batteries that are below freezing, you will
                              > electroplate metallic lithium and ruin the battery.
                              >
                              > Do a quick Google search on electroplating lithium when charging below
                              > freezing.
                              > On Dec 2, 2012 12:47 AM, "Wade Perry" <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com> wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                              > >
                              > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                              > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                              > discharge
                              > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                              > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                              > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                              > Went
                              > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                              > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                              > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                              > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                              > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                              > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                              > >
                              > >
                              > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                              > >
                              > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                              > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                              > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                              > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                              > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                              > >
                              > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                              > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                              > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                              > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                              > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                              > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                              > >
                              > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                              > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                              > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                              > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                              > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                              > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                              > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                              > >
                              > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                              > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                              > concerned
                              > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                              > on
                              > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                              > or
                              > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                              > > cells.
                              > >
                              > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                              > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                              > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                              > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                              > Right
                              > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                              > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                              > bulb
                              > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                              > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                              > >
                              > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                              > AC
                              > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                              > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                              > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                              > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                              > > me to a resource about this?
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for the help!
                              > >
                              > > Wade Perry
                              > > 1998 Force
                              > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • theoldcars@aol.com
                              Just a word of warning The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                                Just a word of warning

                                The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C
                                and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB at 1C and many
                                have put them under loads of 3C or 4C. There is no data that I am aware of
                                that shows cycle life under these higher C rates but it will be less.

                                The new CA series which are also called the gray cells are rated at 2C by
                                CALB.

                                If your going to put a higher C rate on a CALB cell I would recommend it be
                                the CA series.

                                CALB for the most part has stopped selling the SE series except for a few
                                sizes. The demand for the SE series has almost totally gone away with the
                                release of the CA series.

                                Jack from EVTV gives out some off some really off the wall advise and
                                information. While some of what he does is good he also chimes in with baseless
                                comments or beliefs that have no merit.

                                On the 40Ah cells your going to see far more voltage sag under load. Cycle
                                life would be less but as you point out its going to be a savings
                                regardless over lead. I would highly recommend the CA 60Ah cells. The 60Ah cells
                                hold their voltage very well. I know of one person who parallel two 40Ah of
                                SE40 and their voltage sags more then a pack of 60Ah CA cells in series.

                                Don Blazer


                                In a message dated 12/3/2012 8:34:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                ev64bug@... writes:




                                I have one question for Bouty:
                                How many miles do you have on your pack?

                                One question for the group:
                                Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                                I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                                miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                                24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short
                                side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.
                                I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the
                                weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm
                                interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of
                                reasons:

                                1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                                front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V
                                wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and
                                the controller.

                                2. The pack cost
                                is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                                around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                                batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                                3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                                lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                                have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                                like it is permanently going down a hill.

                                4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                                "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                                force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should
                                be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells:
                                _http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/_
                                (http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/)

                                I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                                I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                                between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                                ________________________________
                                From: d. Bouton Baldridge <_cfrkeepr@..._
                                (mailto:cfrkeepr@...) >
                                To: "_solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) "
                                <_solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) >
                                Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System



                                Hi Wade,
                                In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your re
                                adings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                                having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding
                                going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing
                                that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is
                                not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the
                                reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it
                                was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season
                                my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side
                                by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for
                                you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher
                                than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result
                                this stops the charger earlier than
                                the previous Ahour
                                reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                                or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                                routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and
                                this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the
                                utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                                occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                                every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                                last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might
                                find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your
                                project FWIW,
                                Bouty

                                ________________________________
                                From: Wade Perry <_perrypeas@..._ (mailto:perrypeas@...) >
                                To: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                                Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                                Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System


                                Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                                I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                                a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                                well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                _https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQk
                                FlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html_
                                (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html)

                                The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                they're reasonably well balanced.

                                One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                                Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                                This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                                because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                                the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                                something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                cells.

                                Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                                now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                                back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                                So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                                power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                me to a resource about this?

                                Thanks for the help!

                                Wade Perry
                                1998 Force
                                56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Chandler Chip
                                Geo: Ooops! My brain cramp. Thanks for the correction. Chip Chandler cchandler66@roadrunner.com ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 4, 2012
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                                  Geo: Ooops! My brain cramp. Thanks for the correction.

                                  Chip Chandler
                                  cchandler66@...

                                  On Dec 3, 2012, at 7:25 PM, geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...> wrote:

                                  > Chip-
                                  >
                                  > are you confusing the charger's thermal monitoring system with the thermal management system?
                                  >
                                  > In my 1999 force, the factory stock condition was:
                                  >
                                  > * two NTC thermistors mounted inside ring lugs, one screwed onto a battery post in each box, plugged into the charger interface box you describe.
                                  >
                                  > * two thermal management boxes, small black plastic, 1x2x4", velcro'd to the top of the batteries, again one in front, one in the rear. These boxes each have a bi-metallic type thermal snap-switch, to turn on the heating pads. They are powered from the AC junction box on the rear-left fender well.
                                  >
                                  > It is the latter system I believe Wade is referring to. It is completely independent of the charger.
                                  >
                                  > //Geo
                                  >
                                  > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Wade:
                                  > > The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I'll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex circuit board with some of the leads going out to the thermal management system. Matching that circuitry with your Zivan charger might be difficult, but you might go a simpler route as Solectria did in the 1996 Force, just fused leads off the power input before the power leads go to the charger. My 1996 has dual BC1000 chargers, taking only 110 volts, and in the junction box two 12amp 250 volt fuses on the two leads to the temp sensor boxes. Your Zivan and heater pads probably take 240 volts.
                                  > >
                                  > > My temp readings are showing quite a difference, as it gets colder here, between the center of the pack and outside edge, both after running and charging. I don't know what long term effects this might have on cell conditions and longevity, that is, having the center cells working at a higher temperature than the cells at the edges (also this would make a complex scenario for precession). I have no insulation (and no room for it), but would recommend as much insulation as you can install, under and around. I found when I tried originally heating lead acid, the electric bill was significant even with insulation. I believe the temp sensors are set for 70F degrees, and it would be wonderful if they could be adjusted to say 40F or replaced for 40F. I am still getting reasonable performance with the center pack starting temp at 25F with 1.5Ah/mile (TS 160Ah cells).
                                  > >
                                  > > Chip Chandler
                                  > > cchandler66@...
                                  > >
                                  > > On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Thanks for the help Chip.
                                  > > > I see those two pages, that's helpful.
                                  > > > I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
                                  > > > I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
                                  > > > unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
                                  > > > The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
                                  > > > cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
                                  > > > when I took the gels out.
                                  > > > However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
                                  > > > had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
                                  > > > junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
                                  > > > NG5.
                                  > > > Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
                                  > > > pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
                                  > > > just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
                                  > > > Wade Perry
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
                                  > > > > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
                                  > > > > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
                                  > > > > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
                                  > > > > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
                                  > > > > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
                                  > > > > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
                                  > > > > installing under and around your cells?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Chip Chandler
                                  > > > > cchandler66@...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                  > > > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                                  > > > > discharge
                                  > > > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                  > > > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                  > > > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                                  > > > > Went
                                  > > > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                  > > > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                  > > > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                  > > > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                  > > > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                  > > > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                  > > > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                  > > > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                  > > > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                  > > > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                  > > > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                  > > > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                  > > > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                  > > > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                  > > > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                  > > > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                  > > > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                  > > > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                  > > > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                  > > > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                  > > > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                  > > > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                                  > > > > concerned
                                  > > > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                                  > > > > on
                                  > > > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                                  > > > > or
                                  > > > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                  > > > > > cells.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                  > > > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                  > > > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                  > > > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                                  > > > > Right
                                  > > > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                  > > > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                                  > > > > bulb
                                  > > > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                  > > > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                                  > > > > AC
                                  > > > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                  > > > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                  > > > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                  > > > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                  > > > > > me to a resource about this?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thanks for the help!
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Wade Perry
                                  > > > > > 1998 Force
                                  > > > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ------------------------------------
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                  I ll chime in here too. Tom has good advice. When I bought my 40 Ah TS cells the price was $63.00 per cell. Since the 60 Ah cells are now about the same
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 4, 2012
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I'll chime in here too. Tom has good advice. When I bought my 40 Ah TS cells the price was $63.00 per cell. Since the 60 Ah cells are now about the same price  as what I paid 4 years ago it makes no sense to use a 40 Ah cell today unless you live in a hot climate and on an island,  the sag is bad with the 40 Ah in cold weather. The only reason I have not upgraded is because they are still performing and as I mentioned before as a solar powered vehicle the smaller pack works well, also I want to see how long they will last. Right now it appears the car may fail before the batteries, got some switching issues going on. So my advice is go with the 60Ah unless you must drive longer distances then go with what ever you can afford.
                                    Bouty  


                                    ________________________________
                                    From: "theoldcars@..." <theoldcars@...>
                                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 9:47 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                     
                                    Just a word of warning

                                    The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C
                                    and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB at 1C and many
                                    have put them under loads of 3C or 4C. There is no data that I am aware of
                                    that shows cycle life under these higher C rates but it will be less.

                                    The new CA series which are also called the gray cells are rated at 2C by
                                    CALB.

                                    If your going to put a higher C rate on a CALB cell I would recommend it be
                                    the CA series.

                                    CALB for the most part has stopped selling the SE series except for a few
                                    sizes. The demand for the SE series has almost totally gone away with the
                                    release of the CA series.

                                    Jack from EVTV gives out some off some really off the wall advise and
                                    information. While some of what he does is good he also chimes in with baseless
                                    comments or beliefs that have no merit.

                                    On the 40Ah cells your going to see far more voltage sag under load. Cycle
                                    life would be less but as you point out its going to be a savings
                                    regardless over lead. I would highly recommend the CA 60Ah cells. The 60Ah cells
                                    hold their voltage very well. I know of one person who parallel two 40Ah of
                                    SE40 and their voltage sags more then a pack of 60Ah CA cells in series.

                                    Don Blazer


                                    In a message dated 12/3/2012 8:34:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                    mailto:ev64bug%40yahoo.com writes:

                                    I have one question for Bouty:
                                    How many miles do you have on your pack?

                                    One question for the group:
                                    Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                                    I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                                    miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                                    24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short
                                    side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.
                                    I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the
                                    weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm
                                    interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of
                                    reasons:

                                    1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                                    front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V
                                    wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and
                                    the controller.

                                    2. The pack cost
                                    is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                                    around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                                    batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                                    3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                                    lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                                    have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                                    like it is permanently going down a hill.

                                    4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                                    "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                                    force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should
                                    be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells:
                                    _http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/_
                                    (http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/)

                                    I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                                    I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                                    between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                                    ________________________________
                                    From: d. Bouton Baldridge <mailto:_cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com_
                                    (mailto:mailto:cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com) >
                                    To: "mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) "
                                    <mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) >
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                    Hi Wade,
                                    In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your re
                                    adings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                                    having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding
                                    going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing
                                    that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is
                                    not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the
                                    reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it
                                    was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season
                                    my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side
                                    by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for
                                    you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher
                                    than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result
                                    this stops the charger earlier than
                                    the previous Ahour
                                    reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                                    or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                                    routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and
                                    this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the
                                    utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                                    occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                                    every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                                    last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might
                                    find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your
                                    project FWIW,
                                    Bouty

                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Wade Perry <mailto:_perrypeas%40gmail.com_ (mailto:mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com) >
                                    To: mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com)
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                                    Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                    Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                                    I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                    from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                                    a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                    probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                    So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                                    well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                    did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                    Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                    around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                    59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                    Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                    _https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQk
                                    FlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html_
                                    (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html)

                                    The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                    went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                    .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                    finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                    they're reasonably well balanced.

                                    One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                    measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                    Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                    factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                    out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                    This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                                    Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                    would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                    were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                    all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                    counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                    undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                    in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                                    This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                    charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                                    because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                                    the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                                    something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                    cells.

                                    Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                    with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                    taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                    together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                                    now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                    around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                                    back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                    box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                                    So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                                    power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                    August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                    searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                    where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                    me to a resource about this?

                                    Thanks for the help!

                                    Wade Perry
                                    1998 Force
                                    56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                    Oh I forgot to mention, I had been told by a Sinopoly (formly TS) dealer that TS and SkyEnergy (Calb) originally were the two primary cell makers, and Sky
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 4, 2012
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Oh I forgot to mention, I had been told by a Sinopoly (formly TS) dealer that TS and SkyEnergy (Calb) originally were the two primary cell makers, and Sky (Calb) made the cells for their military so they were quite rugged could provide serious current, but that they had a shorter life than the TS. I have not used any Calbs, but I can attest to the TSs since I have at least 5 times brought the same group of cells back to life from 0v. Not on purpose mind you. My guess is that Calb has probably improved their product to give longer life with their new line, it is obvious that they have not been stingy with capacity sometimes 15% higher than rating. which would seem good except if your batch of cells are not matched, just keep it between the knees! good luck.
                                      Bouty


                                      ________________________________
                                      From: "theoldcars@..." <theoldcars@...>
                                      To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 9:47 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                       
                                      Just a word of warning

                                      The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C
                                      and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB at 1C and many
                                      have put them under loads of 3C or 4C. There is no data that I am aware of
                                      that shows cycle life under these higher C rates but it will be less.

                                      The new CA series which are also called the gray cells are rated at 2C by
                                      CALB.

                                      If your going to put a higher C rate on a CALB cell I would recommend it be
                                      the CA series.

                                      CALB for the most part has stopped selling the SE series except for a few
                                      sizes. The demand for the SE series has almost totally gone away with the
                                      release of the CA series.

                                      Jack from EVTV gives out some off some really off the wall advise and
                                      information. While some of what he does is good he also chimes in with baseless
                                      comments or beliefs that have no merit.

                                      On the 40Ah cells your going to see far more voltage sag under load. Cycle
                                      life would be less but as you point out its going to be a savings
                                      regardless over lead. I would highly recommend the CA 60Ah cells. The 60Ah cells
                                      hold their voltage very well. I know of one person who parallel two 40Ah of
                                      SE40 and their voltage sags more then a pack of 60Ah CA cells in series.

                                      Don Blazer


                                      In a message dated 12/3/2012 8:34:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                      mailto:ev64bug%40yahoo.com writes:

                                      I have one question for Bouty:
                                      How many miles do you have on your pack?

                                      One question for the group:
                                      Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                                      I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                                      miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                                      24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short
                                      side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.
                                      I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the
                                      weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm
                                      interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of
                                      reasons:

                                      1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                                      front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V
                                      wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and
                                      the controller.

                                      2. The pack cost
                                      is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                                      around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                                      batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                                      3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                                      lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                                      have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                                      like it is permanently going down a hill.

                                      4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                                      "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                                      force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should
                                      be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells:
                                      _http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/_
                                      (http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/)

                                      I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                                      I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                                      between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                                      ________________________________
                                      From: d. Bouton Baldridge <mailto:_cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com_
                                      (mailto:mailto:cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com) >
                                      To: "mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) "
                                      <mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) >
                                      Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                      Hi Wade,
                                      In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your re
                                      adings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                                      having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding
                                      going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing
                                      that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is
                                      not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the
                                      reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it
                                      was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season
                                      my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side
                                      by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for
                                      you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher
                                      than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result
                                      this stops the charger earlier than
                                      the previous Ahour
                                      reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                                      or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                                      routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and
                                      this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the
                                      utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                                      occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                                      every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                                      last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might
                                      find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your
                                      project FWIW,
                                      Bouty

                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Wade Perry <mailto:_perrypeas%40gmail.com_ (mailto:mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com) >
                                      To: mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com)
                                      Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                                      Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                      Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                                      I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                      from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                                      a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                      probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                      So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                                      well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                      did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                      Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                      around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                      59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                      Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                      _https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQk
                                      FlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html_
                                      (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html)

                                      The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                      went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                      .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                      finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                      they're reasonably well balanced.

                                      One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                      measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                      Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                      factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                      out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                      This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                                      Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                      would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                      were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                      all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                      counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                      undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                      in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                                      This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                      charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                                      because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                                      the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                                      something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                      cells.

                                      Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                      with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                      taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                      together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                                      now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                      around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                                      back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                      box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                                      So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                                      power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                      August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                      searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                      where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                      me to a resource about this?

                                      Thanks for the help!

                                      Wade Perry
                                      1998 Force
                                      56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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