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Re: Thermal Management System

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  • geo_homsy2
    I have the two thermostat boxes, if anyone needs them. I damaged my factory heating mats with acid spills, from the old flooded cells that the previous owner
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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      I have the two thermostat boxes, if anyone needs them.

      I damaged my factory heating mats with acid spills, from the old flooded cells that the previous owner put in :(

      Fortunately I live in the Bay Area, CA, with mild climate. So I'm not in need of the heating system.

      //Geo

      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...> wrote:
      >
      > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box, if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on installing under and around your cells?
      >
      >
      > Chip Chandler
      > cchandler66@...
      >
      > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
      > >
      > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
      > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
      > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
      > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
      > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
      > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
      > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
      > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
      > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
      > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
      > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
      > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
      > >
      > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
      > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
      > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
      > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
      > > they're reasonably well balanced.
      > >
      > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
      > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
      > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
      > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
      > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
      > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
      > >
      > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
      > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
      > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
      > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
      > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
      > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
      > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
      > >
      > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
      > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
      > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
      > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
      > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
      > > cells.
      > >
      > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
      > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
      > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
      > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
      > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
      > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
      > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
      > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
      > >
      > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
      > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
      > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
      > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
      > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
      > > me to a resource about this?
      > >
      > > Thanks for the help!
      > >
      > > Wade Perry
      > > 1998 Force
      > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • geo_homsy2
      Rex- I have CAD models of both battery boxes. Would you like CAD models, or just numbers? //Geo
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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        Rex-

        I have CAD models of both battery boxes. Would you like CAD models, or just numbers?

        //Geo

        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have one question for Bouty:
        > How many miles do you have on your pack?
        >
        > One question for the group:
        > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?
        >
        >
        >
        > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000 miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.  I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of reasons:
        >
        > 1.  If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and the controller.
        >
        > 2. The pack cost
        > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping.  13 Deka batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)
        >
        > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161 lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel like it is permanently going down a hill.
        >
        > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/
        >
        > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>
        > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
        > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
        >
        >
        >  
        > Hi Wade,
        >  In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
        > the previous Ahour
        > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and had the automatic reset.  I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project FWIW,
        > Bouty
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
        > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
        > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
        >
        >  
        > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
        >
        > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
        > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
        > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
        > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
        > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
        > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
        > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
        > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
        > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
        > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
        > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
        > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
        >
        > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
        > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
        > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
        > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
        > they're reasonably well balanced.
        >
        > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
        > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
        > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
        > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
        > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
        > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
        >
        > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
        > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
        > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
        > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
        > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
        > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
        > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
        >
        > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
        > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
        > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
        > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
        > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
        > cells.
        >
        > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
        > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
        > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
        > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
        > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
        > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
        > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
        > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
        >
        > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
        > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
        > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
        > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
        > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
        > me to a resource about this?
        >
        > Thanks for the help!
        >
        > Wade Perry
        > 1998 Force
        > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Rex Allison
        Numbers would be great. Thanks, Rex ________________________________ From: geo_homsy2 To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday,
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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          Numbers would be great.
          Thanks,
          Rex




          ________________________________
          From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 10:56 AM
          Subject: [solectria_ev] Front battery box dimensions WAS Re: Thermal Management System


           
          Rex-

          I have CAD models of both battery boxes. Would you like CAD models, or just numbers?

          //Geo

          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have one question for Bouty:
          > How many miles do you have on your pack?
          >
          > One question for the group:
          > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?
          >
          >
          >
          > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000 miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.  I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of reasons:
          >
          > 1.  If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and the controller.
          >
          > 2. The pack cost
          > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping.  13 Deka batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)
          >
          > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161 lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel like it is permanently going down a hill.
          >
          > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/
          >
          > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>
          > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
          > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
          >
          >
          >  
          > Hi Wade,
          >  In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
          > the previous Ahour
          > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and had the automatic reset.  I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project FWIW,
          > Bouty
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
          > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
          > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
          >
          >  
          > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
          >
          > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
          > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
          > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
          > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
          > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
          > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
          > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
          > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
          > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
          > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
          > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
          > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
          >
          > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
          > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
          > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
          > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
          > they're reasonably well balanced.
          >
          > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
          > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
          > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
          > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
          > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
          > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
          >
          > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
          > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
          > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
          > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
          > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
          > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
          > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
          >
          > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
          > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
          > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
          > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
          > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
          > cells.
          >
          > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
          > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
          > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
          > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
          > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
          > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
          > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
          > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
          >
          > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
          > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
          > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
          > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
          > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
          > me to a resource about this?
          >
          > Thanks for the help!
          >
          > Wade Perry
          > 1998 Force
          > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Wade Perry
          Thanks for the help Chip. I see those two pages, that s helpful. I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top). I still have the temp sensor boxes,
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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            Thanks for the help Chip.
            I see those two pages, that's helpful.
            I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
            I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
            unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
            The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
            cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
            when I took the gels out.
            However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
            had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
            junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
            NG5.
            Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
            pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
            just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
            Wade Perry


            On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:

            > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
            > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
            > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
            > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
            > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
            > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
            > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
            > installing under and around your cells?
            >
            >
            > Chip Chandler
            > cchandler66@...
            >
            > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
            > >
            > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
            > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
            > discharge
            > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
            > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
            > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
            > Went
            > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
            > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
            > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
            > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
            > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
            > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
            > >
            > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
            > >
            > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
            > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
            > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
            > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
            > > they're reasonably well balanced.
            > >
            > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
            > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
            > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
            > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
            > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
            > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
            > >
            > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
            > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
            > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
            > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
            > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
            > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
            > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
            > >
            > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
            > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
            > concerned
            > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
            > on
            > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
            > or
            > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
            > > cells.
            > >
            > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
            > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
            > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
            > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
            > Right
            > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
            > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
            > bulb
            > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
            > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
            > >
            > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
            > AC
            > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
            > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
            > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
            > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
            > > me to a resource about this?
            > >
            > > Thanks for the help!
            > >
            > > Wade Perry
            > > 1998 Force
            > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Wade Perry
            Hi Tom. The cells cannot be undercharged , in any sense that would cause them damage anyway. Totally different from Lead. In fact it s better to undercharge
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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              Hi Tom.
              The cells cannot be "undercharged", in any sense that would cause them
              damage anyway. Totally different from Lead. In fact it's better to
              undercharge them a bit, or as Bouty says "stay away from the knees".
              Charging to 3.4v is good. Very conservative, you'd probably be fine
              charging to 3.5v, and get a little extra capacity on the top end.
              (although there's risk of exceeding the operating voltage of the
              controller, which is theoretically 190v, if you interrupt the end of a
              charge and try to drive without letting the cells settle down to resting
              voltage)
              I'm charging up to ~192v right now when the charger enters the Constant
              Voltage phase of the charge. I'd thought that was a little low but based
              on my "pack emptying" experiment and getting a full 60 Ahr out, why change
              anything? (Of course that last Ah wasn't really usable for much, but I did
              make it to 60!) I do plan on setting my new charger to go to 196v though.
              Congratulations by the way on your own transplant. Very impressive and
              very neatly done! (I'm envious actually- looking at the snarl of wires
              beside my own pack)
              Wade



              On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > The Ah "precession" is something I have been very curious about. Our car
              > is up to 2Ah now
              > after charging, and it's pretty cool out in the garage (in the 50s). So
              > it's not real
              > warm, which seems to be what you're indicating causes the charge to
              > terminate before the
              > Ah counter reaches zero.
              >
              > What is your charge profile setup? Mine charges to 3.4V per module
              > (190.4V) at 20A then
              > switches to 190.4V until the current drops below 1A, then the charger
              > turns off. I'm
              > wondering if this is similar to what you're using to charge your pack, and
              > want to make
              > sure I'm not chronically undercharging or something. I was tempted to
              > change the charge
              > so that it used a lower termination current, just in case stopping at 1A
              > was too early and
              > causing undercharging.
              >
              > At least I know that others see a similar precession on charge, so I'm
              > less concerned than
              > I might be, but I'd like to know what your charge profile does. You are
              > doing very well
              > with your pack and I could do worse than emulate you!
              >
              > -Tom
              >
              >
              > On 12/2/2012 9:26 AM, d. Bouton Baldridge wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Wade,
              > > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
              > readings are
              > > perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having
              > only +/-.1 v or so
              > > from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the
              > knees and your
              > > system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter
              > issue, It has been
              > > my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining
              > capacity. In my case
              > > I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack
              > warming up; for me
              > > it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter
              > season my charge
              > > resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah
              > each cycle when
              > > the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you
              > charge for a few
              > > hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the
              > voltage is
              > > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than the
              > previous Ahour
              > > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
              > or aging. But
              > > it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and
              > had the
              > > automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight
              > precession is only an
              > > annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I
              > have a pretty long
              > > warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so
              > I wouldn't have
              > > to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as
              > any Pb pack would
              > > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
              > might find some
              > > of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project
              > FWIW,
              > > Bouty
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@... <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com>>
              > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
              > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
              > >
              > >
              > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
              > >
              > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
              > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
              > discharge
              > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
              > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
              > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
              > Went
              > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
              > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
              > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
              > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
              > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
              > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
              > >
              > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
              > >
              > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
              > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
              > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
              > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
              > > they're reasonably well balanced.
              > >
              > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
              > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
              > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
              > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
              > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
              > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
              > >
              > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
              > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
              > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
              > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
              > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
              > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
              > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
              > >
              > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
              > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
              > concerned
              > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
              > on
              > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
              > or
              > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
              > > cells.
              > >
              > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
              > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
              > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
              > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
              > Right
              > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
              > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
              > bulb
              > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
              > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
              > >
              > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
              > AC
              > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
              > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
              > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
              > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
              > > me to a resource about this?
              > >
              > > Thanks for the help!
              > >
              > > Wade Perry
              > > 1998 Force
              > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Thomas Hudson
              > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
              > http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Hudson
              Thanks for the info, Wade. I m lucky in that my Force was upgraded to NiCD in 2001, so all the components are fine up to 250V. I may try a conservative pack
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                Thanks for the info, Wade. I'm lucky in that my Force was upgraded to NiCD in 2001, so
                all the components are fine up to 250V. I may try a conservative "pack emptying" run at
                some point soon just so we know what we can expect out of the pack in a pinch, but for the
                time being it's good to know it's working as it should. I might put in a simple reset
                button somewhere for the Ah meter to deal with the "precession" business.

                -Tom

                On 12/3/2012 2:56 PM, Wade Perry wrote:
                > Hi Tom.
                > The cells cannot be "undercharged", in any sense that would cause them
                > damage anyway. Totally different from Lead. In fact it's better to
                > undercharge them a bit, or as Bouty says "stay away from the knees".
                > Charging to 3.4v is good. Very conservative, you'd probably be fine
                > charging to 3.5v, and get a little extra capacity on the top end.
                > (although there's risk of exceeding the operating voltage of the
                > controller, which is theoretically 190v, if you interrupt the end of a
                > charge and try to drive without letting the cells settle down to resting
                > voltage)
                > I'm charging up to ~192v right now when the charger enters the Constant
                > Voltage phase of the charge. I'd thought that was a little low but based
                > on my "pack emptying" experiment and getting a full 60 Ahr out, why change
                > anything? (Of course that last Ah wasn't really usable for much, but I did
                > make it to 60!) I do plan on setting my new charger to go to 196v though.
                > Congratulations by the way on your own transplant. Very impressive and
                > very neatly done! (I'm envious actually- looking at the snarl of wires
                > beside my own pack)
                > Wade
                >
                >
                >
                > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
                >
                >> **
                >>
                >>
                >> The Ah "precession" is something I have been very curious about. Our car
                >> is up to 2Ah now
                >> after charging, and it's pretty cool out in the garage (in the 50s). So
                >> it's not real
                >> warm, which seems to be what you're indicating causes the charge to
                >> terminate before the
                >> Ah counter reaches zero.
                >>
                >> What is your charge profile setup? Mine charges to 3.4V per module
                >> (190.4V) at 20A then
                >> switches to 190.4V until the current drops below 1A, then the charger
                >> turns off. I'm
                >> wondering if this is similar to what you're using to charge your pack, and
                >> want to make
                >> sure I'm not chronically undercharging or something. I was tempted to
                >> change the charge
                >> so that it used a lower termination current, just in case stopping at 1A
                >> was too early and
                >> causing undercharging.
                >>
                >> At least I know that others see a similar precession on charge, so I'm
                >> less concerned than
                >> I might be, but I'd like to know what your charge profile does. You are
                >> doing very well
                >> with your pack and I could do worse than emulate you!
                >>
                >> -Tom
                >>
                >>
                >> On 12/2/2012 9:26 AM, d. Bouton Baldridge wrote:
                >>> Hi Wade,
                >>> In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
                >> readings are
                >>> perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having
                >> only +/-.1 v or so
                >>> from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the
                >> knees and your
                >>> system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter
                >> issue, It has been
                >>> my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining
                >> capacity. In my case
                >>> I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack
                >> warming up; for me
                >>> it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter
                >> season my charge
                >>> resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah
                >> each cycle when
                >>> the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you
                >> charge for a few
                >>> hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the
                >> voltage is
                >>> slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than the
                >> previous Ahour
                >>> reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                >> or aging. But
                >>> it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and
                >> had the
                >>> automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight
                >> precession is only an
                >>> annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I
                >> have a pretty long
                >>> warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so
                >> I wouldn't have
                >>> to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as
                >> any Pb pack would
                >>> last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
                >> might find some
                >>> of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project
                >> FWIW,
                >>> Bouty
                >>>
                >>> ________________________________
                >>> From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@... <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com>>
                >>> To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
                >>> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                >>> Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                >>>
                >>> I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                >>> from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                >> discharge
                >>> a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                >>> probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                >>> So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                >> Went
                >>> well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                >>> did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                >>> Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                >>> around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                >>> 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                >>> Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                >>>
                >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                >>> The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                >>> went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                >>> .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                >>> finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                >>> they're reasonably well balanced.
                >>>
                >>> One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                >>> measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                >>> Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                >>> factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                >>> out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                >>> This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                >>>
                >>> Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                >>> would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                >>> were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                >>> all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                >>> counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                >>> undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                >>> in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                >>>
                >>> This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                >>> charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                >> concerned
                >>> because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                >> on
                >>> the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                >> or
                >>> something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                >>> cells.
                >>>
                >>> Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                >>> with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                >>> taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                >>> together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                >> Right
                >>> now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                >>> around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                >> bulb
                >>> back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                >>> box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                >>>
                >>> So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                >> AC
                >>> power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                >>> August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                >>> searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                >>> where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                >>> me to a resource about this?
                >>>
                >>> Thanks for the help!
                >>>
                >>> Wade Perry
                >>> 1998 Force
                >>> 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>>
                >> --
                >> Thomas Hudson
                >> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                >> http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Thomas Hudson
                http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
              • Wade Perry
                Hi Wolf. Yes that was my understanding. It s been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing, like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                  Hi Wolf.
                  Yes that was my understanding.
                  It's been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing,
                  like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard skating rink.
                  But I knew the cells wouldn't be as cold as the outside air because I've
                  been driving them, and recharging, both of which should generate some heat
                  within the cell itself. However they don't generate all that much heat
                  really even when you're pushing them, which a Force isn't really capable of
                  doing anyway, so I was nervous. The phenomenon that Bouty and Tom are
                  calling "precession" was getting me concerned. Especially because it
                  happened when it was COLDER. That's why I was so happy to get the full
                  60Ahr out... But the full capacity might be partly because I'm breaking
                  the cells in too.

                  Wolf a question for you- What do you think is the maximum voltage the
                  AC325 controller can handle? I have 56 cells in the car now, could I add
                  any more??? :)

                  Bouty- I don't understand why you should see a higher incidence of
                  precession when it's warmer, while I see a higher incidence when it's
                  colder.

                  Wade


                  On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:

                  > I would not charge lithium ion batteries that are below freezing, you will
                  > electroplate metallic lithium and ruin the battery.
                  >
                  > Do a quick Google search on electroplating lithium when charging below
                  > freezing.
                  > On Dec 2, 2012 12:47 AM, "Wade Perry" <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                  > >
                  > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                  > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                  > discharge
                  > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                  > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                  > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                  > Went
                  > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                  > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                  > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                  > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                  > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                  > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                  > >
                  > >
                  > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                  > >
                  > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                  > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                  > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                  > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                  > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                  > >
                  > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                  > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                  > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                  > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                  > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                  > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                  > >
                  > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                  > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                  > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                  > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                  > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                  > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                  > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                  > >
                  > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                  > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                  > concerned
                  > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                  > on
                  > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                  > or
                  > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                  > > cells.
                  > >
                  > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                  > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                  > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                  > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                  > Right
                  > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                  > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                  > bulb
                  > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                  > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                  > >
                  > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                  > AC
                  > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                  > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                  > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                  > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                  > > me to a resource about this?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for the help!
                  > >
                  > > Wade Perry
                  > > 1998 Force
                  > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Wade Perry
                  Thanks Bouty. I would never have considered a smaller pack size had it not been for you. And as it turns out I don t need the extra range. :) One
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                    Thanks Bouty.
                    I would never have considered a "smaller" pack size had it not been for
                    you. And as it turns out I don't need the extra range. :)
                    One difference- these CALB CA cells can handle anything the Force could
                    ever throw at them, I usually drive quite aggressively in "Normal" and use
                    the "Power" setting when I need to. Got the little car up to 117km/hr last
                    night, that's a record! 72.7 mph.
                    Given the lighter pack size of the 60s, plus the current they're capable of
                    delivering, I think I might have the fastest stock Solectria Force
                    transplant to lithium in the WORLD. (that is until someone decides to do
                    the 40Ah CALB CA version- ahem)
                    Wade


                    On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 8:26 AM, d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Wade,
                    > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
                    > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                    > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is
                    > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just
                    > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that
                    > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have
                    > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;
                    > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the
                    > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on
                    > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80
                    > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack
                    > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is
                    > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than the
                    > previous Ahour
                    > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                    > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                    > routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years
                    > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact
                    > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                    > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                    > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                    > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
                    > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on
                    > your project FWIW,
                    > Bouty
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                    > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                    > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                    >
                    > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                    > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                    > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                    > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                    > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                    > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                    > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                    > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                    > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                    > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                    > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                    >
                    > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                    >
                    > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                    > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                    > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                    > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                    > they're reasonably well balanced.
                    >
                    > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                    > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                    > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                    > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                    > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                    > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                    >
                    > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                    > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                    > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                    > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                    > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                    > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                    > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                    >
                    > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                    > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                    > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                    > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                    > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                    > cells.
                    >
                    > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                    > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                    > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                    > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                    > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                    > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                    > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                    > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                    >
                    > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                    > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                    > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                    > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                    > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                    > me to a resource about this?
                    >
                    > Thanks for the help!
                    >
                    > Wade Perry
                    > 1998 Force
                    > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Chandler Chip
                    Wade: The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I ll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                      Wade:
                      The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I'll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex circuit board with some of the leads going out to the thermal management system. Matching that circuitry with your Zivan charger might be difficult, but you might go a simpler route as Solectria did in the 1996 Force, just fused leads off the power input before the power leads go to the charger. My 1996 has dual BC1000 chargers, taking only 110 volts, and in the junction box two 12amp 250 volt fuses on the two leads to the temp sensor boxes. Your Zivan and heater pads probably take 240 volts.

                      My temp readings are showing quite a difference, as it gets colder here, between the center of the pack and outside edge, both after running and charging. I don't know what long term effects this might have on cell conditions and longevity, that is, having the center cells working at a higher temperature than the cells at the edges (also this would make a complex scenario for precession). I have no insulation (and no room for it), but would recommend as much insulation as you can install, under and around. I found when I tried originally heating lead acid, the electric bill was significant even with insulation. I believe the temp sensors are set for 70F degrees, and it would be wonderful if they could be adjusted to say 40F or replaced for 40F. I am still getting reasonable performance with the center pack starting temp at 25F with 1.5Ah/mile (TS 160Ah cells).

                      Chip Chandler
                      cchandler66@...

                      On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:

                      > Thanks for the help Chip.
                      > I see those two pages, that's helpful.
                      > I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
                      > I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
                      > unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
                      > The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
                      > cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
                      > when I took the gels out.
                      > However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
                      > had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
                      > junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
                      > NG5.
                      > Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
                      > pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
                      > just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
                      > Wade Perry
                      >
                      > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
                      > > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
                      > > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
                      > > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
                      > > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
                      > > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
                      > > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
                      > > installing under and around your cells?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Chip Chandler
                      > > cchandler66@...
                      > >
                      > > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                      > > >
                      > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                      > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                      > > discharge
                      > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                      > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                      > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                      > > Went
                      > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                      > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                      > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                      > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                      > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                      > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                      > > >
                      > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                      > > >
                      > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                      > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                      > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                      > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                      > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                      > > >
                      > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                      > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                      > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                      > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                      > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                      > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                      > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                      > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                      > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                      > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                      > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                      > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                      > > >
                      > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                      > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                      > > concerned
                      > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                      > > on
                      > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                      > > or
                      > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                      > > > cells.
                      > > >
                      > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                      > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                      > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                      > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                      > > Right
                      > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                      > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                      > > bulb
                      > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                      > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                      > > >
                      > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                      > > AC
                      > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                      > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                      > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                      > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                      > > > me to a resource about this?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks for the help!
                      > > >
                      > > > Wade Perry
                      > > > 1998 Force
                      > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Wade Perry
                      Rex- I don t think the general consensus includes 60Ahr. Yet. I only know of two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr. (Bouty & me) Would like to be
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                        Rex-
                        I don't think the "general consensus" includes 60Ahr. Yet. I only know of
                        two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr. (Bouty & me) Would like to be
                        enlightened about any more out there...
                        I see you running through the same thought process as I did. 40Ahr is
                        definitely small. But you of all people should know, having driven
                        electric for so long in the first place, and even tracked your Ahr usage.
                        I didn't have that benefit, and I can tell you it wasn't wrong.
                        The only thing I'd recommend is to consider putting in as high a voltage as
                        you can. 56 cells is really fun- the "sport" version of the Solectria
                        Force. Plus it results in greater range too- the higher voltage means the
                        Ahr counter moves slower.
                        Also the 60s are a different shape than the 40s. Taller and skinnier. I'm
                        not sure what the height of the front box is, but with the smaller
                        footprint you could definitely fit more of them in.
                        If you do a "high-voltage" transplant using CA 40s, you'd have a very light
                        and zippy car.

                        Putting all the cells in the front is also a good idea, and I wish I had
                        that too. When there's snow on the roads I really notice the lack of
                        traction. I have a hard time getting going in front of my house. I have
                        one gel cell in the front still just to give me some weight up there. I'm
                        thinking that after a year of this, when I have the sense that the cells
                        really are not going to drift and have some experience with it, I may move
                        them up to the front where they're very difficult to actually measure (or
                        as many as I can fit up there).

                        I remember reading Bouty's email with disbelief that he hadn't even checked
                        the voltage on the cells for 18 months! How irresponsible! Is he trying
                        to wreck his batteries?
                        Now I'm quite a ways down that road myself.

                        Wade



                        On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > I have one question for Bouty:
                        > How many miles do you have on your pack?
                        >
                        > One question for the group:
                        > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?
                        >
                        > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                        > miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                        > 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very
                        > short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per
                        > mile. I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when
                        > the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out.
                        > I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple
                        > of reasons:
                        >
                        > 1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                        > front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the
                        > 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack
                        > and the controller.
                        >
                        > 2. The pack cost
                        > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                        > around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                        > batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207
                        > approx.)
                        >
                        > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                        > lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                        > have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                        > like it is permanently going down a hill.
                        >
                        > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                        > "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                        > force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they
                        > should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the
                        > cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/
                        >
                        > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                        > I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                        > between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to
                        > 35Ahrs.
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>
                        > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                        >
                        > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Wade,
                        > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
                        > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                        > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is
                        > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just
                        > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that
                        > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have
                        > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;
                        > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the
                        > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on
                        > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80
                        > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack
                        > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is
                        > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
                        > the previous Ahour
                        > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                        > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                        > routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years
                        > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact
                        > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                        > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                        > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                        > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
                        > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on
                        > your project FWIW,
                        > Bouty
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                        > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                        > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                        >
                        >
                        > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                        >
                        > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                        > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                        > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                        > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                        > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                        > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                        > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                        > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                        > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                        > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                        > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                        >
                        > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                        >
                        > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                        > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                        > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                        > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                        > they're reasonably well balanced.
                        >
                        > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                        > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                        > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                        > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                        > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                        > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                        >
                        > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                        > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                        > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                        > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                        > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                        > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                        > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                        >
                        > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                        > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                        > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                        > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                        > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                        > cells.
                        >
                        > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                        > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                        > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                        > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                        > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                        > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                        > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                        > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                        >
                        > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                        > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                        > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                        > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                        > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                        > me to a resource about this?
                        >
                        > Thanks for the help!
                        >
                        > Wade Perry
                        > 1998 Force
                        > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rex Allison
                        Wade, I think the issue of cell balancing, monitoring, or driving blind so to speak is still forming as users gain more experience. I m not as daring as Bouty,
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                          Wade,

                          I think the issue of cell balancing, monitoring, or driving blind so to speak is still forming as users gain more experience. I'm not as daring as Bouty, so I'm still in favor of monitoring, but I read somewhere (this is not my original idea) that monitoring in groups of 4 is another way to simplify your setup, especially if you are not pushing your pack to it's limit. The advantage of groups of 4 cells, basically battery monitoring vs cell monitoring, is that a weak cell will still show up and you can use one of the existing Pb monitoring systems such as the Paktrakr. This is just another system tradeoff with pros and cons.

                          As far as accessing the front battery box. I gave up my AC unit years ago to a fellow Force owner (60lb less to lug around), so I just have the controller in the way. Another item on my todo list is to come up with a hinged mount for the controller so that the battery box can be easily accessed. I haven't come up with any solid solution yet...

                          Rex




                          ________________________________
                          From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 3:38 PM
                          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                          Rex-
                          I don't think the "general consensus" includes 60Ahr.  Yet.  I only know of
                          two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr.  (Bouty & me)  Would like to be
                          enlightened about any more out there...
                          I see you running through the same thought process as I did.  40Ahr is
                          definitely small.  But you of all people should know, having driven
                          electric for so long in the first place, and even tracked your Ahr usage.
                          I didn't have that benefit, and I can tell you it wasn't wrong.
                          The only thing I'd recommend is to consider putting in as high a voltage as
                          you can.  56 cells is really fun- the "sport" version of the Solectria
                          Force.  Plus it results in greater range too- the higher voltage means the
                          Ahr counter moves slower.
                          Also the 60s are a different shape than the 40s.  Taller and skinnier.  I'm
                          not sure what the height of the front box is, but with the smaller
                          footprint you could definitely fit more of them in.
                          If you do a "high-voltage" transplant using CA 40s, you'd have a very light
                          and zippy car.

                          Putting all the cells in the front is also a good idea, and I wish I had
                          that too.  When there's snow on the roads I really notice the lack of
                          traction.  I have a hard time getting going in front of my house.  I have
                          one gel cell in the front still just to give me some weight up there.  I'm
                          thinking that after a year of this, when I have the sense that the cells
                          really are not going to drift and have some experience with it, I may move
                          them up to the front where they're very difficult to actually measure (or
                          as many as I can fit up there).

                          I remember reading Bouty's email with disbelief that he hadn't even checked
                          the voltage on the cells for 18 months!  How irresponsible!  Is he trying
                          to wreck his batteries?
                          Now I'm quite a ways down that road myself.

                          Wade



                          On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > I have one question for Bouty:
                          > How many miles do you have on your pack?
                          >
                          > One question for the group:
                          > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?
                          >
                          > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                          > miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                          > 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very
                          > short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per
                          > mile.  I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when
                          > the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out.
                          > I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple
                          > of reasons:
                          >
                          > 1.  If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                          > front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the
                          > 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack
                          > and the controller.
                          >
                          > 2. The pack cost
                          > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                          > around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping.  13 Deka
                          > batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207
                          > approx.)
                          >
                          > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                          > lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                          > have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                          > like it is permanently going down a hill.
                          >
                          > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                          > "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                          > force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they
                          > should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the
                          > cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/
                          >
                          > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                          > I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                          > between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to
                          > 35Ahrs.
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>
                          > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                          >
                          > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Wade,
                          >  In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your
                          > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                          > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is
                          > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just
                          > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that
                          > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have
                          > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;
                          > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the
                          > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on
                          > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80
                          > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack
                          > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is
                          > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
                          > the previous Ahour
                          > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                          > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                          > routinely and had the automatic reset.  I am a few months shy of 4 years
                          > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact
                          > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                          > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                          > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                          > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I
                          > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on
                          > your project FWIW,
                          > Bouty
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                          > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                          > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System
                          >
                          >
                          > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                          >
                          > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                          > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                          > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                          > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                          > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                          > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                          > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                          > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                          > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                          > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                          > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                          >
                          > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                          >
                          > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                          > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                          > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                          > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                          > they're reasonably well balanced.
                          >
                          > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                          > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                          > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                          > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                          > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                          > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                          >
                          > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                          > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                          > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                          > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                          > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                          > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                          > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                          >
                          > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                          > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                          > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                          > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                          > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                          > cells.
                          >
                          > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                          > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                          > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                          > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                          > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                          > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                          > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                          > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                          >
                          > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                          > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                          > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                          > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                          > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                          > me to a resource about this?
                          >
                          > Thanks for the help!
                          >
                          > Wade Perry
                          > 1998 Force
                          > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >

                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Gerry Gaydos
                          Hey, you don t need to monitor all the modules in your EVs battery pack,... only the ones you want to keep.There has yet to be made a battery of any type that
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                            Hey, you don't need to monitor all the modules in your EVs battery pack,... only the ones you want to keep.There has yet to be made a battery of any type that has any loyalty to it's owner, just because he/she spent some hard earned money. They will tend to do what ever the hell they want, unless you keep an eye on the little buggers and help them play well with others.

                            Gerry
                            "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto�, Electrifying Cars! 250 598 3100

                            To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                            From: ev64bug@...
                            Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:04:18 -0800
                            Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System


























                            Wade,



                            I think the issue of cell balancing, monitoring, or driving blind so to speak is still forming as users gain more experience. I'm not as daring as Bouty, so I'm still in favor of monitoring, but I read somewhere (this is not my original idea) that monitoring in groups of 4 is another way to simplify your setup, especially if you are not pushing your pack to it's limit. The advantage of groups of 4 cells, basically battery monitoring vs cell monitoring, is that a weak cell will still show up and you can use one of the existing Pb monitoring systems such as the Paktrakr. This is just another system tradeoff with pros and cons.



                            As far as accessing the front battery box. I gave up my AC unit years ago to a fellow Force owner (60lb less to lug around), so I just have the controller in the way. Another item on my todo list is to come up with a hinged mount for the controller so that the battery box can be easily accessed. I haven't come up with any solid solution yet...



                            Rex



                            ________________________________

                            From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>

                            To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com

                            Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 3:38 PM

                            Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System



                            Rex-

                            I don't think the "general consensus" includes 60Ahr. Yet. I only know of

                            two transplants that are less than 100 Ahr. (Bouty & me) Would like to be

                            enlightened about any more out there...

                            I see you running through the same thought process as I did. 40Ahr is

                            definitely small. But you of all people should know, having driven

                            electric for so long in the first place, and even tracked your Ahr usage.

                            I didn't have that benefit, and I can tell you it wasn't wrong.

                            The only thing I'd recommend is to consider putting in as high a voltage as

                            you can. 56 cells is really fun- the "sport" version of the Solectria

                            Force. Plus it results in greater range too- the higher voltage means the

                            Ahr counter moves slower.

                            Also the 60s are a different shape than the 40s. Taller and skinnier. I'm

                            not sure what the height of the front box is, but with the smaller

                            footprint you could definitely fit more of them in.

                            If you do a "high-voltage" transplant using CA 40s, you'd have a very light

                            and zippy car.



                            Putting all the cells in the front is also a good idea, and I wish I had

                            that too. When there's snow on the roads I really notice the lack of

                            traction. I have a hard time getting going in front of my house. I have

                            one gel cell in the front still just to give me some weight up there. I'm

                            thinking that after a year of this, when I have the sense that the cells

                            really are not going to drift and have some experience with it, I may move

                            them up to the front where they're very difficult to actually measure (or

                            as many as I can fit up there).



                            I remember reading Bouty's email with disbelief that he hadn't even checked

                            the voltage on the cells for 18 months! How irresponsible! Is he trying

                            to wreck his batteries?

                            Now I'm quite a ways down that road myself.



                            Wade



                            On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Rex Allison <ev64bug@...> wrote:



                            > **

                            >

                            >

                            > I have one question for Bouty:

                            > How many miles do you have on your pack?

                            >

                            > One question for the group:

                            > Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                            >

                            > I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000

                            > miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to

                            > 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very

                            > short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per

                            > mile. I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when

                            > the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out.

                            > I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple

                            > of reasons:

                            >

                            > 1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the

                            > front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the

                            > 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack

                            > and the controller.

                            >

                            > 2. The pack cost

                            > is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are

                            > around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka

                            > batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207

                            > approx.)

                            >

                            > 3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161

                            > lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to

                            > have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel

                            > like it is permanently going down a hill.

                            >

                            > 4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the

                            > "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the

                            > force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they

                            > should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the

                            > cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/

                            >

                            > I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but

                            > I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use

                            > between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to

                            > 35Ahrs.

                            >

                            > ________________________________

                            > From: d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...>

                            > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>

                            > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM

                            >

                            > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Hi Wade,

                            > In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your

                            > readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity

                            > having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is

                            > avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just

                            > fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that

                            > voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have

                            > found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up;

                            > for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the

                            > winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on

                            > the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80

                            > degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack

                            > temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is

                            > slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than

                            > the previous Ahour

                            > reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in

                            > or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged

                            > routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years

                            > and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact

                            > the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just

                            > occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember

                            > every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would

                            > last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I

                            > might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on

                            > your project FWIW,

                            > Bouty

                            >

                            > ________________________________

                            > From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>

                            > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com

                            > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM

                            > Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                            >

                            >

                            > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                            >

                            > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home

                            > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge

                            > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is

                            > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.

                            > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went

                            > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I

                            > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.

                            > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was

                            > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to

                            > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.

                            > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-

                            >

                            > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html

                            >

                            > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I

                            > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was

                            > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was

                            > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So

                            > they're reasonably well balanced.

                            >

                            > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were

                            > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.

                            > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the

                            > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood

                            > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.

                            > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                            >

                            > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It

                            > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they

                            > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped

                            > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my

                            > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was

                            > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged

                            > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                            >

                            > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by

                            > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned

                            > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on

                            > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or

                            > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the

                            > cells.

                            >

                            > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is

                            > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are

                            > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put

                            > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right

                            > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all

                            > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb

                            > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery

                            > box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                            >

                            > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC

                            > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in

                            > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've

                            > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about

                            > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point

                            > me to a resource about this?

                            >

                            > Thanks for the help!

                            >

                            > Wade Perry

                            > 1998 Force

                            > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >

                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            ------------------------------------



                            Yahoo! Groups Links



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • geo_homsy2
                            Chip- are you confusing the charger s thermal monitoring system with the thermal management system? In my 1999 force, the factory stock condition was: * two
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                              Chip-

                              are you confusing the charger's thermal monitoring system with the thermal management system?

                              In my 1999 force, the factory stock condition was:

                              * two NTC thermistors mounted inside ring lugs, one screwed onto a battery post in each box, plugged into the charger interface box you describe.

                              * two thermal management boxes, small black plastic, 1x2x4", velcro'd to the top of the batteries, again one in front, one in the rear. These boxes each have a bi-metallic type thermal snap-switch, to turn on the heating pads. They are powered from the AC junction box on the rear-left fender well.

                              It is the latter system I believe Wade is referring to. It is completely independent of the charger.

                              //Geo

                              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Wade:
                              > The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I'll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex circuit board with some of the leads going out to the thermal management system. Matching that circuitry with your Zivan charger might be difficult, but you might go a simpler route as Solectria did in the 1996 Force, just fused leads off the power input before the power leads go to the charger. My 1996 has dual BC1000 chargers, taking only 110 volts, and in the junction box two 12amp 250 volt fuses on the two leads to the temp sensor boxes. Your Zivan and heater pads probably take 240 volts.
                              >
                              > My temp readings are showing quite a difference, as it gets colder here, between the center of the pack and outside edge, both after running and charging. I don't know what long term effects this might have on cell conditions and longevity, that is, having the center cells working at a higher temperature than the cells at the edges (also this would make a complex scenario for precession). I have no insulation (and no room for it), but would recommend as much insulation as you can install, under and around. I found when I tried originally heating lead acid, the electric bill was significant even with insulation. I believe the temp sensors are set for 70F degrees, and it would be wonderful if they could be adjusted to say 40F or replaced for 40F. I am still getting reasonable performance with the center pack starting temp at 25F with 1.5Ah/mile (TS 160Ah cells).
                              >
                              > Chip Chandler
                              > cchandler66@...
                              >
                              > On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Thanks for the help Chip.
                              > > I see those two pages, that's helpful.
                              > > I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
                              > > I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
                              > > unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
                              > > The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
                              > > cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
                              > > when I took the gels out.
                              > > However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
                              > > had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
                              > > junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
                              > > NG5.
                              > > Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
                              > > pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
                              > > just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
                              > > Wade Perry
                              > >
                              > > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
                              > > > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
                              > > > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
                              > > > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
                              > > > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
                              > > > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
                              > > > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
                              > > > installing under and around your cells?
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Chip Chandler
                              > > > cchandler66@...
                              > > >
                              > > > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                              > > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                              > > > discharge
                              > > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                              > > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                              > > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                              > > > Went
                              > > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                              > > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                              > > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                              > > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                              > > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                              > > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                              > > > >
                              > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                              > > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                              > > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                              > > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                              > > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                              > > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                              > > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                              > > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                              > > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                              > > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                              > > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                              > > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                              > > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                              > > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                              > > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                              > > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                              > > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                              > > > concerned
                              > > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                              > > > on
                              > > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                              > > > or
                              > > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                              > > > > cells.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                              > > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                              > > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                              > > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                              > > > Right
                              > > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                              > > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                              > > > bulb
                              > > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                              > > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                              > > > AC
                              > > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                              > > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                              > > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                              > > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                              > > > > me to a resource about this?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks for the help!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Wade Perry
                              > > > > 1998 Force
                              > > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ------------------------------------
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Wolf
                              The internals, (caps, MOSFETs) are rated at 250 Volts, but I would not recommend running that close to the limit... I don t have a working AMC325 at the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                                The internals, (caps, MOSFETs) are rated at 250 Volts, but I would not
                                recommend running that close to the limit...

                                I don't have a working AMC325 at the moment, but of you connect to one with
                                the AMC program, and then download the config file.

                                Change the high voltage limit to 999 and then the program will change it to
                                the max allowed voltage.

                                On the AMC320 it is 180 volts.

                                Using the ratio 180V/12 = 15V
                                Then the AMC325 should be 15*15 = 225 Volts max.

                                Due so at your own risk. ;)
                                On Dec 3, 2012 3:30 PM, "Wade Perry" <perrypeas@...> wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Wolf.
                                > Yes that was my understanding.
                                > It's been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing,
                                > like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard skating rink.
                                > But I knew the cells wouldn't be as cold as the outside air because I've
                                > been driving them, and recharging, both of which should generate some heat
                                > within the cell itself. However they don't generate all that much heat
                                > really even when you're pushing them, which a Force isn't really capable of
                                > doing anyway, so I was nervous. The phenomenon that Bouty and Tom are
                                > calling "precession" was getting me concerned. Especially because it
                                > happened when it was COLDER. That's why I was so happy to get the full
                                > 60Ahr out... But the full capacity might be partly because I'm breaking
                                > the cells in too.
                                >
                                > Wolf a question for you- What do you think is the maximum voltage the
                                > AC325 controller can handle? I have 56 cells in the car now, could I add
                                > any more??? :)
                                >
                                > Bouty- I don't understand why you should see a higher incidence of
                                > precession when it's warmer, while I see a higher incidence when it's
                                > colder.
                                >
                                > Wade
                                >
                                > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > I would not charge lithium ion batteries that are below freezing, you
                                > will
                                > > electroplate metallic lithium and ruin the battery.
                                > >
                                > > Do a quick Google search on electroplating lithium when charging below
                                > > freezing.
                                > > On Dec 2, 2012 12:47 AM, "Wade Perry" <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > **
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                                > > >
                                > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back
                                > home
                                > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                                > > discharge
                                > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                                > > Went
                                > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it
                                > to
                                > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                                > > >
                                > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done
                                > I
                                > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I
                                > was
                                > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05.
                                > So
                                > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                                > > >
                                > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                                > > >
                                > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA
                                > dipped
                                > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on
                                > my
                                > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but
                                > plugged
                                > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                                > > >
                                > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently
                                > by
                                > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                                > > concerned
                                > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still
                                > left
                                > > on
                                > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                                > > or
                                > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                > > > cells.
                                > > >
                                > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells
                                > are
                                > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                                > > Right
                                > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                                > > bulb
                                > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                                > > >
                                > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                                > > AC
                                > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back
                                > in
                                > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing.
                                > I've
                                > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone
                                > point
                                > > > me to a resource about this?
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks for the help!
                                > > >
                                > > > Wade Perry
                                > > > 1998 Force
                                > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                Hi Rex, you have done well getting 7 years and 22,000 miles. I have not been so fortunate with Pb. Ok not too sure of the miles maybe 3000. Since the main
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                                  Hi Rex, you have done well getting 7 years and 22,000 miles. I have not been so fortunate with Pb.
                                  Ok not too sure of the miles maybe 3000. Since the main reason for a small pack was cost I also adopted a different attitude for the car. Being an early model the 30 -40 mile range on 90 ah  l/a is still pretty much possible with the 40 Ah lithium. Not needing to drive that much every a day any longer (retired) I wanted to find a solution to the problem of replacing packs every 18 months or 2 years. My goal was to get the overall cost of driving electric down, and replacing packs so frequently was the number one culprit. Since my lithium pack cost just a bit more than the Pb four years ago, I feel that my goal is proving to be successful. I have added the solar feature to not only reduce the cost more, but I wanted to prove to myself that it could be done without using supplemental power which now influences my driving as well. I will have driven 2.5 years without even plugging in. I drive only the distance that will allow me to recharge from the sun
                                  the next day, which is qute a challenge during the winter. So distance driving is for somebody else. Range anxiety is an issue all of us EVers  have to deal with in our public image. If you want to go long distances in an EV it can be done but at a steep price for a large pack, but how much do you really need? Those 3000 miles were hundreds of short trips like the average driver does every day; if an ICE were used they would be the least efficient and most polluting miles, not so with an EV. Hope this helps.
                                  Bouty



                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Rex Allison <ev64bug@...>
                                  To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 11:33 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                   
                                  I have one question for Bouty:
                                  How many miles do you have on your pack?

                                  One question for the group:
                                  Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                                  I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000 miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to 24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.  I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of reasons:

                                  1.  If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and the controller.

                                  2. The pack cost
                                  is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping.  13 Deka batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                                  3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161 lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel like it is permanently going down a hill.

                                  4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/

                                  I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                                  ________________________________
                                  From: d. Bouton Baldridge <mailto:cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com>
                                  To: "mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System


                                   
                                  Hi Wade,
                                   In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your readings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result this stops the charger earlier than
                                  the previous Ahour
                                  reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged routinely and had the automatic reset.  I am a few months shy of 4 years and this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your project FWIW,
                                  Bouty

                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Wade Perry <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com>
                                  To: mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                                  Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                   
                                  Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                                  I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                  from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                                  a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                  probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                  So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                                  well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                  did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                  Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                  around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                  59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                  Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html

                                  The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                  went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                  .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                  finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                  they're reasonably well balanced.

                                  One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                  measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                  Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                  factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                  out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                  This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                                  Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                  would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                  were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                  all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                  counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                  undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                  in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                                  This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                  charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                                  because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                                  the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                                  something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                  cells.

                                  Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                  with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                  taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                  together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                                  now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                  around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                                  back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                  box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                                  So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                                  power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                  August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                  searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                  where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                  me to a resource about this?

                                  Thanks for the help!

                                  Wade Perry
                                  1998 Force
                                  56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                  Hi Wade,  It is only a theory but I think that while you are charging at the higher rate steady state it tends to heat the cell electrolite higher than when
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                                    Hi Wade,
                                     It is only a theory but I think that while you are charging at the higher rate steady state it tends to heat the cell electrolite higher than when you were driving; in my case the cells are heated by the high outside temps and cabin. A warmer cell increases the voltage and thus the charger reaches voltage limit before the entire Ah capacity is reached just slightly less. I have withnesses my cell arround 90 degrees F and the car acts like it is in power mode good acceleration and the converse is true when they are below 50 F, so I know that these cells behave this way. So your cells are colder before charging, I think.
                                    Bouty 


                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Wade Perry <perrypeas@...>
                                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 4:30 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                     
                                    Hi Wolf.
                                    Yes that was my understanding.
                                    It's been below freezing recently, sometimes a fair bit below freezing,
                                    like -15C. My kids are enjoying our backyard skating rink.
                                    But I knew the cells wouldn't be as cold as the outside air because I've
                                    been driving them, and recharging, both of which should generate some heat
                                    within the cell itself. However they don't generate all that much heat
                                    really even when you're pushing them, which a Force isn't really capable of
                                    doing anyway, so I was nervous. The phenomenon that Bouty and Tom are
                                    calling "precession" was getting me concerned. Especially because it
                                    happened when it was COLDER. That's why I was so happy to get the full
                                    60Ahr out... But the full capacity might be partly because I'm breaking
                                    the cells in too.

                                    Wolf a question for you- What do you think is the maximum voltage the
                                    AC325 controller can handle? I have 56 cells in the car now, could I add
                                    any more??? :)

                                    Bouty- I don't understand why you should see a higher incidence of
                                    precession when it's warmer, while I see a higher incidence when it's
                                    colder.

                                    Wade

                                    On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Wolf <mailto:wolf%40wolftronix.com> wrote:

                                    > I would not charge lithium ion batteries that are below freezing, you will
                                    > electroplate metallic lithium and ruin the battery.
                                    >
                                    > Do a quick Google search on electroplating lithium when charging below
                                    > freezing.
                                    > On Dec 2, 2012 12:47 AM, "Wade Perry" <mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                                    > >
                                    > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                    > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                                    > discharge
                                    > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                    > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                    > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                                    > Went
                                    > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                    > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                    > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                    > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                    > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                    > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                                    > >
                                    > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                    > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                    > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                    > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                    > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                                    > >
                                    > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                    > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                    > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                    > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                    > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                    > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                    > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                    > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                    > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                    > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                    > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                    > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                                    > >
                                    > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                    > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                                    > concerned
                                    > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                                    > on
                                    > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                                    > or
                                    > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                    > > cells.
                                    > >
                                    > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                    > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                    > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                    > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                                    > Right
                                    > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                    > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                                    > bulb
                                    > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                    > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                                    > >
                                    > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                                    > AC
                                    > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                    > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                    > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                    > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                    > > me to a resource about this?
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks for the help!
                                    > >
                                    > > Wade Perry
                                    > > 1998 Force
                                    > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • theoldcars@aol.com
                                    Just a word of warning The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 3, 2012
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                                      Just a word of warning

                                      The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C
                                      and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB at 1C and many
                                      have put them under loads of 3C or 4C. There is no data that I am aware of
                                      that shows cycle life under these higher C rates but it will be less.

                                      The new CA series which are also called the gray cells are rated at 2C by
                                      CALB.

                                      If your going to put a higher C rate on a CALB cell I would recommend it be
                                      the CA series.

                                      CALB for the most part has stopped selling the SE series except for a few
                                      sizes. The demand for the SE series has almost totally gone away with the
                                      release of the CA series.

                                      Jack from EVTV gives out some off some really off the wall advise and
                                      information. While some of what he does is good he also chimes in with baseless
                                      comments or beliefs that have no merit.

                                      On the 40Ah cells your going to see far more voltage sag under load. Cycle
                                      life would be less but as you point out its going to be a savings
                                      regardless over lead. I would highly recommend the CA 60Ah cells. The 60Ah cells
                                      hold their voltage very well. I know of one person who parallel two 40Ah of
                                      SE40 and their voltage sags more then a pack of 60Ah CA cells in series.

                                      Don Blazer


                                      In a message dated 12/3/2012 8:34:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                      ev64bug@... writes:




                                      I have one question for Bouty:
                                      How many miles do you have on your pack?

                                      One question for the group:
                                      Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                                      I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                                      miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                                      24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short
                                      side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.
                                      I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the
                                      weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm
                                      interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of
                                      reasons:

                                      1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                                      front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V
                                      wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and
                                      the controller.

                                      2. The pack cost
                                      is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                                      around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                                      batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                                      3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                                      lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                                      have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                                      like it is permanently going down a hill.

                                      4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                                      "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                                      force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should
                                      be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells:
                                      _http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/_
                                      (http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/)

                                      I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                                      I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                                      between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                                      ________________________________
                                      From: d. Bouton Baldridge <_cfrkeepr@..._
                                      (mailto:cfrkeepr@...) >
                                      To: "_solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) "
                                      <_solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) >
                                      Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System



                                      Hi Wade,
                                      In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your re
                                      adings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                                      having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding
                                      going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing
                                      that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is
                                      not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the
                                      reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it
                                      was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season
                                      my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side
                                      by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for
                                      you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher
                                      than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result
                                      this stops the charger earlier than
                                      the previous Ahour
                                      reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                                      or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                                      routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and
                                      this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the
                                      utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                                      occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                                      every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                                      last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might
                                      find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your
                                      project FWIW,
                                      Bouty

                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Wade Perry <_perrypeas@..._ (mailto:perrypeas@...) >
                                      To: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                                      Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                                      Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System


                                      Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                                      I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                      from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                                      a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                      probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                      So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                                      well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                      did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                      Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                      around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                      59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                      Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                      _https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQk
                                      FlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html_
                                      (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html)

                                      The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                      went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                      .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                      finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                      they're reasonably well balanced.

                                      One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                      measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                      Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                      factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                      out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                      This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                                      Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                      would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                      were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                      all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                      counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                      undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                      in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                                      This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                      charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                                      because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                                      the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                                      something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                      cells.

                                      Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                      with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                      taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                      together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                                      now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                      around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                                      back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                      box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                                      So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                                      power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                      August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                      searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                      where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                      me to a resource about this?

                                      Thanks for the help!

                                      Wade Perry
                                      1998 Force
                                      56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Chandler Chip
                                      Geo: Ooops! My brain cramp. Thanks for the correction. Chip Chandler cchandler66@roadrunner.com ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 4, 2012
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                                        Geo: Ooops! My brain cramp. Thanks for the correction.

                                        Chip Chandler
                                        cchandler66@...

                                        On Dec 3, 2012, at 7:25 PM, geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...> wrote:

                                        > Chip-
                                        >
                                        > are you confusing the charger's thermal monitoring system with the thermal management system?
                                        >
                                        > In my 1999 force, the factory stock condition was:
                                        >
                                        > * two NTC thermistors mounted inside ring lugs, one screwed onto a battery post in each box, plugged into the charger interface box you describe.
                                        >
                                        > * two thermal management boxes, small black plastic, 1x2x4", velcro'd to the top of the batteries, again one in front, one in the rear. These boxes each have a bi-metallic type thermal snap-switch, to turn on the heating pads. They are powered from the AC junction box on the rear-left fender well.
                                        >
                                        > It is the latter system I believe Wade is referring to. It is completely independent of the charger.
                                        >
                                        > //Geo
                                        >
                                        > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Wade:
                                        > > The junction box on my 1997 Force leads out of the BC3300 charger and I'll assume it was originally similar for your 1998. Inside this box is a complex circuit board with some of the leads going out to the thermal management system. Matching that circuitry with your Zivan charger might be difficult, but you might go a simpler route as Solectria did in the 1996 Force, just fused leads off the power input before the power leads go to the charger. My 1996 has dual BC1000 chargers, taking only 110 volts, and in the junction box two 12amp 250 volt fuses on the two leads to the temp sensor boxes. Your Zivan and heater pads probably take 240 volts.
                                        > >
                                        > > My temp readings are showing quite a difference, as it gets colder here, between the center of the pack and outside edge, both after running and charging. I don't know what long term effects this might have on cell conditions and longevity, that is, having the center cells working at a higher temperature than the cells at the edges (also this would make a complex scenario for precession). I have no insulation (and no room for it), but would recommend as much insulation as you can install, under and around. I found when I tried originally heating lead acid, the electric bill was significant even with insulation. I believe the temp sensors are set for 70F degrees, and it would be wonderful if they could be adjusted to say 40F or replaced for 40F. I am still getting reasonable performance with the center pack starting temp at 25F with 1.5Ah/mile (TS 160Ah cells).
                                        > >
                                        > > Chip Chandler
                                        > > cchandler66@...
                                        > >
                                        > > On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > Thanks for the help Chip.
                                        > > > I see those two pages, that's helpful.
                                        > > > I kept the heating pads (with the hard plastic over top).
                                        > > > I still have the temp sensor boxes, I haven't changed any of that (I did
                                        > > > unplug and remove the ones in the front box).
                                        > > > The temp sensor box in the rear battery box was indeed on top of the gel
                                        > > > cels when I started. It's still plugged in, I just left it off to the side
                                        > > > when I took the gels out.
                                        > > > However I don't think I have the actual AC junction box anymore. Someone
                                        > > > had changed the charger to a Zivan NG5 before I bought the car, maybe the
                                        > > > junction box was lost then. I do know the AC power came straight into the
                                        > > > NG5.
                                        > > > Insulation I hadn't thought about too much- the gels came with a bunch of
                                        > > > pink- type insulation material which I used around the lithiums too. I was
                                        > > > just going to close up the box and see how well it did.
                                        > > > Wade Perry
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Chandler Chip <cchandler66@...>wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > On the file listing for this website, check out the 1998 Force Service
                                        > > > > manual (Silverman), pages 49 and 53 in the appendix. They show the wiring
                                        > > > > for the Thermal Management System starting from the AC junction box near
                                        > > > > the charger and leading to the temp sensor boxes, one in each battery box,
                                        > > > > if you still have the components for them. Those sensor boxes should be
                                        > > > > installed on top of the batteries. Are your heating mats still in the
                                        > > > > battery boxes under your new batteries? What insulation do you plan on
                                        > > > > installing under and around your cells?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Chip Chandler
                                        > > > > cchandler66@...
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Wade Perry <perrypeas@...> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                        > > > > > from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and
                                        > > > > discharge
                                        > > > > > a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                        > > > > > probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                        > > > > > So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on.
                                        > > > > Went
                                        > > > > > well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                        > > > > > did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                        > > > > > Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                        > > > > > around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                        > > > > > 59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                        > > > > > Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                        > > > > > went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                        > > > > > .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                        > > > > > finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                        > > > > > they're reasonably well balanced.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                        > > > > > measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                        > > > > > Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                        > > > > > factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                        > > > > > out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                        > > > > > This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                        > > > > > would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                        > > > > > were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                        > > > > > all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                        > > > > > counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                        > > > > > undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                        > > > > > in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                        > > > > > charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was
                                        > > > > concerned
                                        > > > > > because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left
                                        > > > > on
                                        > > > > > the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14
                                        > > > > or
                                        > > > > > something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                        > > > > > cells.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                        > > > > > with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                        > > > > > taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                        > > > > > together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box.
                                        > > > > Right
                                        > > > > > now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                        > > > > > around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light
                                        > > > > bulb
                                        > > > > > back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                        > > > > > box, whenever the car's plugged in.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to
                                        > > > > AC
                                        > > > > > power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                        > > > > > August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                        > > > > > searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                        > > > > > where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                        > > > > > me to a resource about this?
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Thanks for the help!
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Wade Perry
                                        > > > > > 1998 Force
                                        > > > > > 56 CALB CA 60 Ahr
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                        I ll chime in here too. Tom has good advice. When I bought my 40 Ah TS cells the price was $63.00 per cell. Since the 60 Ah cells are now about the same
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 4, 2012
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                                          I'll chime in here too. Tom has good advice. When I bought my 40 Ah TS cells the price was $63.00 per cell. Since the 60 Ah cells are now about the same price  as what I paid 4 years ago it makes no sense to use a 40 Ah cell today unless you live in a hot climate and on an island,  the sag is bad with the 40 Ah in cold weather. The only reason I have not upgraded is because they are still performing and as I mentioned before as a solar powered vehicle the smaller pack works well, also I want to see how long they will last. Right now it appears the car may fail before the batteries, got some switching issues going on. So my advice is go with the 60Ah unless you must drive longer distances then go with what ever you can afford.
                                          Bouty  


                                          ________________________________
                                          From: "theoldcars@..." <theoldcars@...>
                                          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 9:47 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                           
                                          Just a word of warning

                                          The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C
                                          and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB at 1C and many
                                          have put them under loads of 3C or 4C. There is no data that I am aware of
                                          that shows cycle life under these higher C rates but it will be less.

                                          The new CA series which are also called the gray cells are rated at 2C by
                                          CALB.

                                          If your going to put a higher C rate on a CALB cell I would recommend it be
                                          the CA series.

                                          CALB for the most part has stopped selling the SE series except for a few
                                          sizes. The demand for the SE series has almost totally gone away with the
                                          release of the CA series.

                                          Jack from EVTV gives out some off some really off the wall advise and
                                          information. While some of what he does is good he also chimes in with baseless
                                          comments or beliefs that have no merit.

                                          On the 40Ah cells your going to see far more voltage sag under load. Cycle
                                          life would be less but as you point out its going to be a savings
                                          regardless over lead. I would highly recommend the CA 60Ah cells. The 60Ah cells
                                          hold their voltage very well. I know of one person who parallel two 40Ah of
                                          SE40 and their voltage sags more then a pack of 60Ah CA cells in series.

                                          Don Blazer


                                          In a message dated 12/3/2012 8:34:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                          mailto:ev64bug%40yahoo.com writes:

                                          I have one question for Bouty:
                                          How many miles do you have on your pack?

                                          One question for the group:
                                          Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                                          I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                                          miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                                          24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short
                                          side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.
                                          I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the
                                          weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm
                                          interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of
                                          reasons:

                                          1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                                          front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V
                                          wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and
                                          the controller.

                                          2. The pack cost
                                          is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                                          around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                                          batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                                          3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                                          lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                                          have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                                          like it is permanently going down a hill.

                                          4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                                          "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                                          force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should
                                          be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells:
                                          _http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/_
                                          (http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/)

                                          I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                                          I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                                          between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                                          ________________________________
                                          From: d. Bouton Baldridge <mailto:_cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com_
                                          (mailto:mailto:cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com) >
                                          To: "mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) "
                                          <mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) >
                                          Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                          Hi Wade,
                                          In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your re
                                          adings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                                          having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding
                                          going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing
                                          that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is
                                          not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the
                                          reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it
                                          was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season
                                          my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side
                                          by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for
                                          you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher
                                          than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result
                                          this stops the charger earlier than
                                          the previous Ahour
                                          reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                                          or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                                          routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and
                                          this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the
                                          utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                                          occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                                          every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                                          last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might
                                          find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your
                                          project FWIW,
                                          Bouty

                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Wade Perry <mailto:_perrypeas%40gmail.com_ (mailto:mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com) >
                                          To: mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com)
                                          Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                                          Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                          Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                                          I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                          from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                                          a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                          probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                          So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                                          well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                          did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                          Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                          around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                          59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                          Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                          _https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQk
                                          FlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html_
                                          (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html)

                                          The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                          went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                          .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                          finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                          they're reasonably well balanced.

                                          One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                          measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                          Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                          factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                          out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                          This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                                          Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                          would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                          were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                          all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                          counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                          undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                          in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                                          This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                          charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                                          because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                                          the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                                          something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                          cells.

                                          Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                          with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                          taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                          together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                                          now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                          around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                                          back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                          box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                                          So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                                          power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                          August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                          searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                          where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                          me to a resource about this?

                                          Thanks for the help!

                                          Wade Perry
                                          1998 Force
                                          56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                          Oh I forgot to mention, I had been told by a Sinopoly (formly TS) dealer that TS and SkyEnergy (Calb) originally were the two primary cell makers, and Sky
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 4, 2012
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                                            Oh I forgot to mention, I had been told by a Sinopoly (formly TS) dealer that TS and SkyEnergy (Calb) originally were the two primary cell makers, and Sky (Calb) made the cells for their military so they were quite rugged could provide serious current, but that they had a shorter life than the TS. I have not used any Calbs, but I can attest to the TSs since I have at least 5 times brought the same group of cells back to life from 0v. Not on purpose mind you. My guess is that Calb has probably improved their product to give longer life with their new line, it is obvious that they have not been stingy with capacity sometimes 15% higher than rating. which would seem good except if your batch of cells are not matched, just keep it between the knees! good luck.
                                            Bouty


                                            ________________________________
                                            From: "theoldcars@..." <theoldcars@...>
                                            To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 9:47 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                             
                                            Just a word of warning

                                            The CALB cells are not rated as many sellers on the Internet are showing 3C
                                            and 4C on their web sites. The SE series was rated by CALB at 1C and many
                                            have put them under loads of 3C or 4C. There is no data that I am aware of
                                            that shows cycle life under these higher C rates but it will be less.

                                            The new CA series which are also called the gray cells are rated at 2C by
                                            CALB.

                                            If your going to put a higher C rate on a CALB cell I would recommend it be
                                            the CA series.

                                            CALB for the most part has stopped selling the SE series except for a few
                                            sizes. The demand for the SE series has almost totally gone away with the
                                            release of the CA series.

                                            Jack from EVTV gives out some off some really off the wall advise and
                                            information. While some of what he does is good he also chimes in with baseless
                                            comments or beliefs that have no merit.

                                            On the 40Ah cells your going to see far more voltage sag under load. Cycle
                                            life would be less but as you point out its going to be a savings
                                            regardless over lead. I would highly recommend the CA 60Ah cells. The 60Ah cells
                                            hold their voltage very well. I know of one person who parallel two 40Ah of
                                            SE40 and their voltage sags more then a pack of 60Ah CA cells in series.

                                            Don Blazer


                                            In a message dated 12/3/2012 8:34:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                            mailto:ev64bug%40yahoo.com writes:

                                            I have one question for Bouty:
                                            How many miles do you have on your pack?

                                            One question for the group:
                                            Does anyone have the dimension for the inside of the front battery box?

                                            I'm really interesting in Bouty's configuration. After 7 years and 22,000
                                            miles my poor old Pb pack is on it's last legs. I'm able to get 22 to
                                            24Ahrs out of the pack which is enough for a round trip to work and a very short
                                            side trip. Since the pack is fairly weak it takes 1.5 to 1.6Ahr per mile.
                                            I'm trying to hold out until summer for my switch to lithium when the
                                            weather is a little better and I have my battery monitor tested out. I'm
                                            interested in putting 49 40Ahr CALB "grey" cells (CA40BFI) for a couple of
                                            reasons:

                                            1. If my measurements are correct the complete pack should fit in the
                                            front battery box in a 7x7 array. By moving the charger up front all the 156V
                                            wiring will be under the hood with a very short run between the pack and
                                            the controller.

                                            2. The pack cost
                                            is comparable to if not cheaper than the Deka equivalent. 40Ahr CALBs are
                                            around $55 each. 49 x $55 = $2,695 before tax and shipping. 13 Deka
                                            batteries would have to be $207 just to be comparable ($2,695 / 13 = $207 approx.)

                                            3. My car will be shedding 661lb. The CALB cells at 3.3lb each x 49 = 161
                                            lb vs the 822lb (63.2lb x 13) of the current pack. I'm probably going to
                                            have to find the original springs for the Geo, otherwise the car will feel
                                            like it is permanently going down a hill.

                                            4. The "blue" CALBs (SE40AHA) already have fantastic C ratings and the
                                            "grey" cells have better cold weather performance. The max current of the
                                            force at around 240A dc should be no problem for the 40Ahr cells, they should
                                            be able to handle C6. There is some interesting test data on the cells:
                                            _http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/_
                                            (http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/)

                                            I know the general consensus is that 60 Ahr or 100 Ahr is preferable, but
                                            I've been logging all my driving for the past 7 years, most days I use
                                            between 16Ahrs and 20Ahrs and only a few times did I even come close to 35Ahrs.

                                            ________________________________
                                            From: d. Bouton Baldridge <mailto:_cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com_
                                            (mailto:mailto:cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com) >
                                            To: "mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) "
                                            <mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com) >
                                            Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:26 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                            Hi Wade,
                                            In my opinion, the balance thing has been greatly over blown and your re
                                            adings are perefectly acceptable especially after using so much capacity
                                            having only +/-.1 v or so from the mean is fantastic. The big thing is avoiding
                                            going beyond the knees and your system seems to be working just fine doing
                                            that. As for the Ahmeter issue, It has been my experience that voltage is
                                            not a reliable means for determining capacity. In my case I have found the
                                            reaching the limiting voltage was caused by the pack warming up; for me it
                                            was the sun. Now that the ambient temperature is lower in the winter season
                                            my charge resets closer to zero, but in summer it stops on the plus side
                                            by .1 ah each cycle when the outside temp is above 80 degrees. My guess for
                                            you is that when you charge for a few hours, the pack temp increases higher
                                            than when you were driving and the voltage is slightly higher as a result
                                            this stops the charger earlier than
                                            the previous Ahour
                                            reading. I am not sure if this is happening as a function of breaking in
                                            or aging. But it was not an issue with lead since it woul be overcharged
                                            routinely and had the automatic reset. I am a few months shy of 4 years and
                                            this slight precession is only an annoyance it has not seemed to impact the
                                            utility of my pack. Since I have a pretty long warm season I would just
                                            occasionaly reset the Ah meter to zero just so I wouldn't have to remember
                                            every time. Now that my cells are getting twice as old as any Pb pack would
                                            last, I am getting into new territory for longevity and at some point I might
                                            find some of these answers, but for now I am saying congratulation on your
                                            project FWIW,
                                            Bouty

                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Wade Perry <mailto:_perrypeas%40gmail.com_ (mailto:mailto:perrypeas%40gmail.com) >
                                            To: mailto:_solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com)
                                            Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:47 AM
                                            Subject: [solectria_ev] Thermal Management System

                                            Greetings all- I've driven over 1,000 miles on lithium now.

                                            I drove a fair bit today, it was mostly empty when I was coming back home
                                            from the last errand so I thought I'd take the long way home and discharge
                                            a bit more than I usually do. Until today the maximum I'd taken out is
                                            probably around 45 Ahr. I had set my limit around 50 to be safe.
                                            So after I got home I drove the block a few times with the heater on. Went
                                            well past 50. I measured pack voltage and some individual cells while I
                                            did this and felt fairly safe as I was getting down towards the bottom.
                                            Finally drove it around one last time in econ with no heater and it was
                                            around 57.5 when I was done. Then I ran the heater by itself to get it to
                                            59. Took the voltage on each cell.
                                            Made a new column to my battery balancing spreadsheet, it's here-
                                            _https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQk
                                            FlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html_
                                            (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0An5nm8itUMMcdHhQV3RsSUdfbzRTQkFlNmtaSy05MHc&output=html)

                                            The cells were springing back as I was measuring them. When I was done I
                                            went back and measured CK, where I'd started measuring the pack. it was
                                            .04 volts higher than I'd written down the first time. By the time I was
                                            finishing measuring, all the cells were coming in around 3.04 or 3.05. So
                                            they're reasonably well balanced.

                                            One cell stands out. JA. It measured 2.93 when its adjacent cells were
                                            measuring an entire ~0.10 volt higher. I haven't figured it out yet.
                                            Other than it happens to be the one that I noticed arrived from the
                                            factory at 4.23% below 50% SOC. You can see that on the sheet. It stood
                                            out at the time because all the other cells came in at 1 or 2% over 50.
                                            This was the only one that was below, and by a fair amount.

                                            Anyway then I ran the heater some more, watching JA in particular. It
                                            would have been cool to have a graph of all the cells at once. But they
                                            were falling off quite quickly. Some dipped down to 2.75 or so. JA dipped
                                            all the way down to 2.50. But I discharged down to a full 60.00 Ahr on my
                                            counter! Finished with a pack voltage of around 160. (which was
                                            undoubtedly springing up also. I didn't wait around to check but plugged
                                            in the charger so I can drive again tomorrow)

                                            This is great, because I had feared I was losing capacity permanently by
                                            charging below freezing. I'd hoped this wasn't the case, but was concerned
                                            because on especially cold days there'd be +1.00 or +2.00 Ahr still left on
                                            the counter when the charger shut off. Warmer days I'd be back to -0.14 or
                                            something like that. I'd been worried that I was gradually damaging the
                                            cells.

                                            Apparently I'm not. Or at least not to the extent I'd feared. This is
                                            with a battery box that's not even put together yet- the 60 Ahr cells are
                                            taller than the gels I took out, so when I finally do get things put
                                            together properly, I'll need to shim the cover over the battery box. Right
                                            now it rests on top of the cells, so there's probably a 1" space all
                                            around, letting cold air in. I did put in a 60watt incandescent light bulb
                                            back there to keep things warmer (and bright and cheery) in the battery
                                            box, whenever the car's plugged in.

                                            So. What I'd really like to do is hook up the Solectria heating mats to AC
                                            power, so I can be more setup for winter. I myself took it apart back in
                                            August, but obviously didn't pay much attention to what I was doing. I've
                                            searched this list repeatedly but can't find anything that talks about
                                            where the AC power hooks up to the heaters / sensors... Can anyone point
                                            me to a resource about this?

                                            Thanks for the help!

                                            Wade Perry
                                            1998 Force
                                            56 CALB CA 60 Ahr

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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