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Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter ...]

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  • geo_homsy2
    Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 27, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!

      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
      >
      > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when wired
      > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
      > current.
      > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Josh-
      > >
      > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between
      > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
      > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor of
      > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
      > >
      > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases R,
      > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
      > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
      > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
      > >
      > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and
      > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
      > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three outputs
      > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
      > >
      > > Yours,
      > >
      > > //Geo
      > >
      > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Geo,
      > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I
      > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
      > > >
      > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the
      > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all
      > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
      > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the
      > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, &
      > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.
      > > >
      > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
      > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across
      > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).
      > > >
      > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got
      > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
      > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor
      > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage
      > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
      > > >
      > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
      > > > Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
      > > >
      > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > > Josh
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Josh-
      > > > >
      > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its
      > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you
      > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
      > > > >
      > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why
      > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
      > > delta vs. wye.
      > > > >
      > > > > yours,
      > > > >
      > > > > //Geo
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when
      > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
      > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
      > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
      > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
      > > WYE.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > > Josh
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
      > > new CCS
      > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around
      > > wires on
      > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
      > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > **
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Collin,
      > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
      > > file when I
      > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
      > > (.par)
      > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
      > > the
      > > > > > > > inconvenience.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
      > > change, not
      > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > > > > Josh
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Lawrence Winiarski
      Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn t the lag of the phasor (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip? I d think the actual
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 27, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
        I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.

        Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the phasor angle varies from the static position.
         
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged world.
        Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934


        ________________________________
        From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
        Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter ...]


         
        Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!

        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
        >
        > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when wired
        > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
        > current.
        > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Josh-
        > >
        > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between
        > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
        > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor of
        > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
        > >
        > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases R,
        > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
        > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
        > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
        > >
        > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and
        > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
        > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three outputs
        > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
        > >
        > > Yours,
        > >
        > > //Geo
        > >
        > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Geo,
        > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I
        > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
        > > >
        > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the
        > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all
        > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
        > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the
        > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, &
        > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.
        > > >
        > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
        > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across
        > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).
        > > >
        > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got
        > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
        > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor
        > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage
        > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
        > > >
        > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
        > > > Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
        > > >
        > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks,
        > > > Josh
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Josh-
        > > > >
        > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its
        > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you
        > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
        > > > >
        > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why
        > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
        > > delta vs. wye.
        > > > >
        > > > > yours,
        > > > >
        > > > > //Geo
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
        > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when
        > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
        > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
        > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
        > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
        > > WYE.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > > Josh
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
        > > new CCS
        > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around
        > > wires on
        > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
        > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > **
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Collin,
        > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
        > > file when I
        > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
        > > (.par)
        > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
        > > the
        > > > > > > > inconvenience.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
        > > change, not
        > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > > > > Josh
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Wolf
        It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular, instead of
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 27, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
          from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular,
          instead of sinusoidal.

          Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...

          You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
          to the rotor.
          On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>
          wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
          > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
          > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the
          > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
          >
          > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the
          > phasor angle varies from the static position.
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be
          > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged
          > world.
          > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
          > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
          > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
          > DC-DC Converter ...]
          >
          >
          >
          > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
          >
          > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
          > wired
          > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
          > > current.
          > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi Josh-
          > > >
          > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
          > between
          > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
          > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor
          > of
          > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
          > > >
          > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases
          > R,
          > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
          > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
          > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
          > > >
          > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
          > and
          > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
          > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
          > outputs
          > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
          > > >
          > > > Yours,
          > > >
          > > > //Geo
          > > >
          > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
          > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Geo,
          > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently,
          > but I
          > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
          > > > >
          > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in
          > the
          > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage
          > on all
          > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
          > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of
          > the
          > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B,
          > B-C, &
          > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
          > 240degrees.
          > > > >
          > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
          > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
          > across
          > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
          > 1.73).
          > > > >
          > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've
          > got
          > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
          > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta
          > motor
          > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
          > voltage
          > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
          > > > >
          > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
          > > > > Motor Depictions:
          > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
          > > > >
          > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks,
          > > > > Josh
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
          > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hi Josh-
          > > > > >
          > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in
          > its
          > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can
          > you
          > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's
          > why
          > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
          > > > delta vs. wye.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > yours,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > //Geo
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth
          > when
          > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
          > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
          > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
          > 'smart'
          > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
          > for
          > > > WYE.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Thanks,
          > > > > > > Josh
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@>
          > wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got
          > a
          > > > new CCS
          > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
          > around
          > > > wires on
          > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
          > back by
          > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
          > that?
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@>
          > wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > **
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Collin,
          > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
          > > > file when I
          > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
          > parameter
          > > > (.par)
          > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry
          > for
          > > > the
          > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
          > > > change, not
          > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Thanks,
          > > > > > > > > Josh
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • otedawg
          FINALLY! I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            FINALLY!
            I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can post .par files for both delta and wye.


            Thanks for all the help,
            Josh

            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
            >
            > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
            > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular,
            > instead of sinusoidal.
            >
            > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...
            >
            > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
            > to the rotor.
            > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
            > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
            > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the
            > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
            > >
            > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the
            > > phasor angle varies from the static position.
            > >
            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
            > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be
            > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged
            > > world.
            > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
            > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
            > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
            > > DC-DC Converter ...]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
            > >
            > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
            > > wired
            > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
            > > > current.
            > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > **
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi Josh-
            > > > >
            > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
            > > between
            > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
            > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor
            > > of
            > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
            > > > >
            > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases
            > > R,
            > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
            > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
            > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
            > > > >
            > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
            > > and
            > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
            > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
            > > outputs
            > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
            > > > >
            > > > > Yours,
            > > > >
            > > > > //Geo
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
            > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Geo,
            > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently,
            > > but I
            > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in
            > > the
            > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage
            > > on all
            > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
            > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of
            > > the
            > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B,
            > > B-C, &
            > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
            > > 240degrees.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
            > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
            > > across
            > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
            > > 1.73).
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've
            > > got
            > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
            > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta
            > > motor
            > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
            > > voltage
            > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
            > > > > > Motor Depictions:
            > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks,
            > > > > > Josh
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
            > > wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Hi Josh-
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in
            > > its
            > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can
            > > you
            > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's
            > > why
            > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
            > > > > delta vs. wye.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > yours,
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > //Geo
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth
            > > when
            > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
            > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
            > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
            > > 'smart'
            > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
            > > for
            > > > > WYE.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Thanks,
            > > > > > > > Josh
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@>
            > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got
            > > a
            > > > > new CCS
            > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
            > > around
            > > > > wires on
            > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
            > > back by
            > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
            > > that?
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@>
            > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > **
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Collin,
            > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
            > > > > file when I
            > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
            > > parameter
            > > > > (.par)
            > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry
            > > for
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
            > > > > change, not
            > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
            > > > > > > > > > Josh
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Gerry Gaydos
            Hi Josh,That s great news. I d be interested in receiving the .par files you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry Internal combustion is so last century ...
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Josh,That's great news. I'd be interested in receiving the .par files you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry

              "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto�, Electrifying Cars! 250 598 3100

              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              From: joshua.orfield@...
              Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:21:44 +0000
              Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter ...]


























              FINALLY!

              I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can post .par files for both delta and wye.



              Thanks for all the help,

              Josh



              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:

              >

              > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change

              > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular,

              > instead of sinusoidal.

              >

              > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...

              >

              > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power

              > to the rotor.

              > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>

              > wrote:

              >

              > > **

              > >

              > >

              > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor

              > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?

              > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the

              > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.

              > >

              > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the

              > > phasor angle varies from the static position.

              > >

              > > ----------------------------------------------------------

              > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be

              > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged

              > > world.

              > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934

              > >

              > > ________________________________

              > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>

              > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com

              > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM

              > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -

              > > DC-DC Converter ...]

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!

              > >

              > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:

              > > >

              > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when

              > > wired

              > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged

              > > > current.

              > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:

              > > >

              > > > > **

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > > Hi Josh-

              > > > >

              > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference

              > > between

              > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as

              > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor

              > > of

              > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.

              > > > >

              > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases

              > > R,

              > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.

              > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the

              > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.

              > > > >

              > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'

              > > and

              > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for

              > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three

              > > outputs

              > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.

              > > > >

              > > > > Yours,

              > > > >

              > > > > //Geo

              > > > >

              > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>

              > > wrote:

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Geo,

              > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently,

              > > but I

              > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in

              > > the

              > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage

              > > on all

              > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the

              > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of

              > > the

              > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B,

              > > B-C, &

              > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at

              > > 240degrees.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To

              > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage

              > > across

              > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is

              > > 1.73).

              > > > > >

              > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've

              > > got

              > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage

              > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta

              > > motor

              > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the

              > > voltage

              > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm

              > > > > > Motor Depictions:

              > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Thanks,

              > > > > > Josh

              > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>

              > > wrote:

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > Hi Josh-

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in

              > > its

              > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can

              > > you

              > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's

              > > why

              > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for

              > > > > delta vs. wye.

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > yours,

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > //Geo

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>

              > > > > wrote:

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth

              > > when

              > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even

              > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my

              > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was

              > > 'smart'

              > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should

              > > for

              > > > > WYE.

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Thanks,

              > > > > > > > Josh

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@>

              > > wrote:

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got

              > > a

              > > > > new CCS

              > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch

              > > around

              > > > > wires on

              > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and

              > > back by

              > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done

              > > that?

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@>

              > > wrote:

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > > **

              > > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > > Collin,

              > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this

              > > > > file when I

              > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the

              > > parameter

              > > > > (.par)

              > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry

              > > for

              > > > > the

              > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.

              > > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter

              > > > > change, not

              > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...

              > > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > > Thanks,

              > > > > > > > > > Josh

              > > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > >

              > > >

              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > > >

              > >

              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > >

              > >

              > >

              >

              >

              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Newton Hausermann
              Hi josh any information/files on this we d love to use these as a base level for our project, particularly the detla configuration. ... [Non-text portions of
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi josh any information/files on this we'd love to use these as a base
                level for our project, particularly the detla configuration.

                On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Gerry Gaydos <gerry.gaydos@...>wrote:

                >
                > Hi Josh,That's great news. I'd be interested in receiving the .par files
                > you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry
                >
                > "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto�, Electrifying Cars!
                > 250 598 3100
                >
                > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                > From: joshua.orfield@...
                > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:21:44 +0000
                > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
                > DC-DC Converter ...]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > FINALLY!
                >
                > I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters
                > together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my
                > multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've
                > been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can
                > post .par files for both delta and wye.
                >
                >
                >
                > Thanks for all the help,
                >
                > Josh
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
                >
                > > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look
                > triangular,
                >
                > > instead of sinusoidal.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...
                >
                > >
                >
                > > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
                >
                > > to the rotor.
                >
                > > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>
                >
                > > wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > **
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
                >
                > > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
                >
                > > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as
                > the
                >
                > > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much
                > the
                >
                > > > phasor angle varies from the static position.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it
                > will be
                >
                > > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a
                > ravaged
                >
                > > > world.
                >
                > > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > ________________________________
                >
                > > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
                >
                > > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
                >
                > > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade
                > voltage -
                >
                > > > DC-DC Converter ...]
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
                >
                > > > wired
                >
                > > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                >
                > > > > current.
                >
                > > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > > > > > **
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > Hi Josh-
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
                >
                > > > between
                >
                > > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it
                > as
                >
                > > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a
                > factor
                >
                > > > of
                >
                > > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares!
                > Phases
                >
                > > > R,
                >
                > > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of
                > phase.
                >
                > > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to
                > know the
                >
                > > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was
                > 'smart'
                >
                > > > and
                >
                > > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
                > for
                >
                > > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
                >
                > > > outputs
                >
                > > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > Yours,
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > //Geo
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                >
                > > > wrote:
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > Geo,
                >
                > > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till
                > recently,
                >
                > > > but I
                >
                > > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors
                > before.
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor
                > wired in
                >
                > > > the
                >
                > > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same
                > voltage
                >
                > > > on all
                >
                > > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on
                > the
                >
                > > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3
                > points of
                >
                > > > the
                >
                > > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase
                > A-B,
                >
                > > > B-C, &
                >
                > > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
                >
                > > > 240degrees.
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name).
                > To
                >
                > > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
                >
                > > > across
                >
                > > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
                >
                > > > 1.73).
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there.
                > You've
                >
                > > > got
                >
                > > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different
                > voltage
                >
                > > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A
                > delta
                >
                > > > motor
                >
                > > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
                >
                > > > voltage
                >
                > > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                >
                > > > > > > Motor Depictions:
                >
                > > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > Thanks,
                >
                > > > > > > Josh
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
                >
                > > > wrote:
                >
                > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > Hi Josh-
                >
                > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs
                > in
                >
                > > > its
                >
                > > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye.
                > Can
                >
                > > > you
                >
                > > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                >
                > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and
                > that's
                >
                > > > why
                >
                > > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a
                > setting for
                >
                > > > > > delta vs. wye.
                >
                > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > yours,
                >
                > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > //Geo
                >
                > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg"
                > <joshua.orfield@>
                >
                > > > > > wrote:
                >
                > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and
                > forth
                >
                > > > when
                >
                > > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I
                > even
                >
                > > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think
                > that my
                >
                > > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
                >
                > > > 'smart'
                >
                > > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it
                > should
                >
                > > > for
                >
                > > > > > WYE.
                >
                > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                >
                > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                >
                > > > > > > > > Josh
                >
                > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@
                > >
                >
                > > > wrote:
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I
                > got
                >
                > > > a
                >
                > > > > > new CCS
                >
                > > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                >
                > > > around
                >
                > > > > > wires on
                >
                > > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
                >
                > > > back by
                >
                > > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
                >
                > > > that?
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@
                > >
                >
                > > > wrote:
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > **
                >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > Collin,
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with
                > this
                >
                > > > > > file when I
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
                >
                > > > parameter
                >
                > > > > > (.par)
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file?
                > Sorry
                >
                > > > for
                >
                > > > > > the
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                >
                > > > > > change, not
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                >
                > > > > > > > > > > Josh
                >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > > >
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • otedawg
                Newton, Gerry, I ve uploaded the files to the files section of the site. I have a later version of the Delta file, but I m still waiting to see how well it
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Newton, Gerry,
                  I've uploaded the files to the files section of the site. I have a later version of the Delta file, but I'm still waiting to see how well it pans out in my car... I've changed the econ mode to 15kw, and some of the torque/brake slew variables to try to fix a few issues I had with Regen.

                  I've also got the latest ccs program (3.1.8.01/03) and a bunch of .par/.ccs files from Azure's website, but they don't seem to be very useful. (I setup a crawler and downloaded everything I could.)

                  Let me know if I can help with anything.
                  Josh
                  The EV grin works great at 70mph...

                  --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Newton Hausermann <rclugnut@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi josh any information/files on this we'd love to use these as a base
                  > level for our project, particularly the detla configuration.
                  >
                  > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Gerry Gaydos <gerry.gaydos@...>wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Josh,That's great news. I'd be interested in receiving the .par files
                  > > you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry
                  > >
                  > > "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto™, Electrifying Cars!
                  > > 250 598 3100
                  > >
                  > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: joshua.orfield@...
                  > > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:21:44 +0000
                  > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
                  > > DC-DC Converter ...]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > FINALLY!
                  > >
                  > > I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters
                  > > together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my
                  > > multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've
                  > > been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can
                  > > post .par files for both delta and wye.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for all the help,
                  > >
                  > > Josh
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
                  > >
                  > > > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look
                  > > triangular,
                  > >
                  > > > instead of sinusoidal.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
                  > >
                  > > > to the rotor.
                  > >
                  > > > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@>
                  > >
                  > > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > **
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
                  > >
                  > > > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
                  > >
                  > > > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as
                  > > the
                  > >
                  > > > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much
                  > > the
                  > >
                  > > > > phasor angle varies from the static position.
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it
                  > > will be
                  > >
                  > > > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a
                  > > ravaged
                  > >
                  > > > > world.
                  > >
                  > > > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > ________________________________
                  > >
                  > > > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@>
                  > >
                  > > > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
                  > >
                  > > > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade
                  > > voltage -
                  > >
                  > > > > DC-DC Converter ...]
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
                  > >
                  > > > > wired
                  > >
                  > > > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                  > >
                  > > > > > current.
                  > >
                  > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > **
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > Hi Josh-
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
                  > >
                  > > > > between
                  > >
                  > > > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it
                  > > as
                  > >
                  > > > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a
                  > > factor
                  > >
                  > > > > of
                  > >
                  > > > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares!
                  > > Phases
                  > >
                  > > > > R,
                  > >
                  > > > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of
                  > > phase.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to
                  > > know the
                  > >
                  > > > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was
                  > > 'smart'
                  > >
                  > > > > and
                  > >
                  > > > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
                  > > for
                  > >
                  > > > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
                  > >
                  > > > > outputs
                  > >
                  > > > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > Yours,
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > //Geo
                  > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                  > >
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > Geo,
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till
                  > > recently,
                  > >
                  > > > > but I
                  > >
                  > > > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors
                  > > before.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor
                  > > wired in
                  > >
                  > > > > the
                  > >
                  > > > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same
                  > > voltage
                  > >
                  > > > > on all
                  > >
                  > > > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on
                  > > the
                  > >
                  > > > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3
                  > > points of
                  > >
                  > > > > the
                  > >
                  > > > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase
                  > > A-B,
                  > >
                  > > > > B-C, &
                  > >
                  > > > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
                  > >
                  > > > > 240degrees.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name).
                  > > To
                  > >
                  > > > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
                  > >
                  > > > > across
                  > >
                  > > > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
                  > >
                  > > > > 1.73).
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there.
                  > > You've
                  > >
                  > > > > got
                  > >
                  > > > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different
                  > > voltage
                  > >
                  > > > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A
                  > > delta
                  > >
                  > > > > motor
                  > >
                  > > > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
                  > >
                  > > > > voltage
                  > >
                  > > > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > Motor Depictions:
                  > >
                  > > > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > Josh
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
                  > >
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > Hi Josh-
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs
                  > > in
                  > >
                  > > > > its
                  > >
                  > > > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye.
                  > > Can
                  > >
                  > > > > you
                  > >
                  > > > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and
                  > > that's
                  > >
                  > > > > why
                  > >
                  > > > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a
                  > > setting for
                  > >
                  > > > > > > delta vs. wye.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > yours,
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > //Geo
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg"
                  > > <joshua.orfield@>
                  > >
                  > > > > > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and
                  > > forth
                  > >
                  > > > > when
                  > >
                  > > > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I
                  > > even
                  > >
                  > > > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think
                  > > that my
                  > >
                  > > > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
                  > >
                  > > > > 'smart'
                  > >
                  > > > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it
                  > > should
                  > >
                  > > > > for
                  > >
                  > > > > > > WYE.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > Josh
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I
                  > > got
                  > >
                  > > > > a
                  > >
                  > > > > > > new CCS
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                  > >
                  > > > > around
                  > >
                  > > > > > > wires on
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
                  > >
                  > > > > back by
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
                  > >
                  > > > > that?
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > >
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                  > > > > > > > > > > > **
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                  > > > > > > > > > > >
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                  > > > > > > > > > > > Collin,
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with
                  > > this
                  > >
                  > > > > > > file when I
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
                  > >
                  > > > > parameter
                  > >
                  > > > > > > (.par)
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file?
                  > > Sorry
                  > >
                  > > > > for
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                  > > > > > > the
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                  > >
                  > > > > > > change, not
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > > Josh
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > > > > > > > >
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                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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