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Fwd: [solectria_ev] Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter & AC Motor Controller

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  • Pohorsky@comcast.net
    ... From: Jerry Pohorsky Date: Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter &
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 23, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      From: Jerry Pohorsky < jerry.pohorsky@... >
      Date: Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:44 PM
      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter & AC Motor Controller
      To: " solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com " < solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com >

      Howdy,



      The DMOC 445 works poorly below 288 volts in the wye configuration. We are running 96 90 AH cells in our 2001 Honda Civic EV conversion. Our pack voltage starts at over 340 after a full charge and stays in the 300 to 320 range during most of the charge. Once the voltage falls below 290, I can feel a noticeable lack of power. We have a fairly heavy EV - around 3,100 lbs. The Force is much lighter. That being said, our top speed is over 80 MPH and acceleration is not bad, but not as good as my RAV 4 EV (288 volt pack).

      If you look at the DMOC 445 & AC-24 spec sheet from Solectria, you will see that they show all of their power and torque curves for pack voltages of 156 Volts for the delta and 336 Volts for the Wye. There is a dead zone between 180 volts and 280 volts where the motor does not do well in either configuration. Just thought you might want to know this before you spend a lot of time and money on a disappointing upgrade.

      By the way, we are using a tiny 600 watt Vicor DC-DC converter. The heat-sink is about 10 times bigger than the converter. It can handle input voltages of up to 375 volts. We also have a small 17 AH lead acid auxiliary battery. Without it, the LCD instruments like our LCD odometer go blank when the vacuum brake pump cycles on.



      Adios,
      Jerry
      www.eeVeeMotors.com

      Sent from my iPhone



      On Oct 23, 2012, at 12:35 PM, "otedawg" < joshua.orfield@... > wrote:










      I've already got LiFePo4s in the car (50), and I just found an awesome deal on another 25. I've also got an AC24 and DMOC445 controller, with a miniBMS installed. I want to upgrade the voltage to be able to run the AC24 in WYE instead of Delta, and have better overall stats in the car (right now, in WYE, I go 0-30 in 4-5seconds, but top out at 45-50Mph.)

      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com , kevin lubot <dexion111@...> wrote:
      >
      > Im curious, why are you looking to go to 240V? Range?
      > Â
      > Reason why I ask is it may be easier to just convert to lifepo4 cells. I spent 6K for 48 (added 4 more for 52 but 48 ran fine wanted a bit more range) 100AH cells and have an 80 mile range now 100 if i really push it at 45mph. It may get you where you want to be however I would expect it would cost less to find one of the higher voltage controllers/dc to dcs (there were some forces that used more but smaller batteries) but perhaps not a whole lot less than buying 7 more batteries and the controller/dc to dc. I dont know anything about your build so you may already be lithium. Just curious and perhaps trying to suggest another way to get where you want to be.
      > Â
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: otedawg <joshua.orfield@...>
      > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:46 PM
      > Subject: [solectria_ev] Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter & AC Motor Controller
      >
      >
      > Â
      >
      > I'm planning on upgrading the voltage of my force to 240V now that I've got everything running. It turns out that I've got the DC575 (100-200V) DC-DC converter, and the AC controller is the lower voltage version as well (max 190ish V). Does anyone know where I could find another DCDC, hopefully a 750 and an AC controller?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Otedawg
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • otedawg
      Jerry, You re probably right, but I d love to get my car to where I can drive up hills at more than 25. :P I ve done the calculations myself, and after looking
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 24, 2012
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        Jerry,
        You're probably right, but I'd love to get my car to where I can drive up hills at more than 25. :P I've done the calculations myself, and after looking at the numbers, in my current configuration in WYE, I'm limiting by the minimum voltage of the DMOC. If I could get this thing to work in Delta, I'd probably be set, but I can't figure out how to get the controller to work right. If I just wire it up, it 2 phases, and I haven't been able to figure out how to get it to power all phases equally. I'm sure there's a setting somewhere, but everyone I can find with a .ccs file has the WYE version, not Delta.

        Thanks,
        Otedawg

        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Pohorsky@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
        > From: Jerry Pohorsky < jerry.pohorsky@... >
        > Date: Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:44 PM
        > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter & AC Motor Controller
        > To: " solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com " < solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com >
        >
        > Howdy,
        >
        >
        >
        > The DMOC 445 works poorly below 288 volts in the wye configuration. We are running 96 90 AH cells in our 2001 Honda Civic EV conversion. Our pack voltage starts at over 340 after a full charge and stays in the 300 to 320 range during most of the charge. Once the voltage falls below 290, I can feel a noticeable lack of power. We have a fairly heavy EV - around 3,100 lbs. The Force is much lighter. That being said, our top speed is over 80 MPH and acceleration is not bad, but not as good as my RAV 4 EV (288 volt pack).
        >
        > If you look at the DMOC 445 & AC-24 spec sheet from Solectria, you will see that they show all of their power and torque curves for pack voltages of 156 Volts for the delta and 336 Volts for the Wye. There is a dead zone between 180 volts and 280 volts where the motor does not do well in either configuration. Just thought you might want to know this before you spend a lot of time and money on a disappointing upgrade.
        >
        > By the way, we are using a tiny 600 watt Vicor DC-DC converter. The heat-sink is about 10 times bigger than the converter. It can handle input voltages of up to 375 volts. We also have a small 17 AH lead acid auxiliary battery. Without it, the LCD instruments like our LCD odometer go blank when the vacuum brake pump cycles on.
        >
        >
        >
        > Adios,
        > Jerry
        > www.eeVeeMotors.com
        >
        > Sent from my iPhone
        >
        >
        >
        > On Oct 23, 2012, at 12:35 PM, "otedawg" < joshua.orfield@... > wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I've already got LiFePo4s in the car (50), and I just found an awesome deal on another 25. I've also got an AC24 and DMOC445 controller, with a miniBMS installed. I want to upgrade the voltage to be able to run the AC24 in WYE instead of Delta, and have better overall stats in the car (right now, in WYE, I go 0-30 in 4-5seconds, but top out at 45-50Mph.)
        >
        > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com , kevin lubot <dexion111@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Im curious, why are you looking to go to 240V? Range?
        > > Â
        > > Reason why I ask is it may be easier to just convert to lifepo4 cells. I spent 6K for 48 (added 4 more for 52 but 48 ran fine wanted a bit more range) 100AH cells and have an 80 mile range now 100 if i really push it at 45mph. It may get you where you want to be however I would expect it would cost less to find one of the higher voltage controllers/dc to dcs (there were some forces that used more but smaller batteries) but perhaps not a whole lot less than buying 7 more batteries and the controller/dc to dc. I dont know anything about your build so you may already be lithium. Just curious and perhaps trying to suggest another way to get where you want to be.
        > > Â
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: otedawg <joshua.orfield@>
        > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:46 PM
        > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter & AC Motor Controller
        > >
        > >
        > > Â
        > >
        > > I'm planning on upgrading the voltage of my force to 240V now that I've got everything running. It turns out that I've got the DC575 (100-200V) DC-DC converter, and the AC controller is the lower voltage version as well (max 190ish V). Does anyone know where I could find another DCDC, hopefully a 750 and an AC controller?
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > Otedawg
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Collin Kidder
        I think that I ve got a ccs file for a DMOC445 with AC24 motor in delta configuration. I had such a car. I drove it with lead acid batteries but it was too
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 24, 2012
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          I think that I've got a ccs file for a DMOC445 with AC24 motor in delta
          configuration. I had such a car. I drove it with lead acid batteries but it
          was too heavy and slow. So I switched to lithium cells and many more volts
          and had to go to wye. So, anyway, I've got both configurations. This should
          be a link to the delta version:

          http://www.kkmfg.com/SFT-10-1631-000_2008_03_10.ccs


          On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:24 AM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Jerry,
          > You're probably right, but I'd love to get my car to where I can drive up
          > hills at more than 25. :P I've done the calculations myself, and after
          > looking at the numbers, in my current configuration in WYE, I'm limiting by
          > the minimum voltage of the DMOC. If I could get this thing to work in
          > Delta, I'd probably be set, but I can't figure out how to get the
          > controller to work right. If I just wire it up, it 2 phases, and I haven't
          > been able to figure out how to get it to power all phases equally. I'm sure
          > there's a setting somewhere, but everyone I can find with a .ccs file has
          > the WYE version, not Delta.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Otedawg
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • otedawg
          Collin, Thanks for that - I ll try downloading and running with this file when I get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par) file,
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 24, 2012
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            Collin,
            Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par) file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the inconvenience.

            Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not something hidden that Azure uses...

            Thanks,
            Josh

            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:
            >
            > I think that I've got a ccs file for a DMOC445 with AC24 motor in delta
            > configuration. I had such a car. I drove it with lead acid batteries but it
            > was too heavy and slow. So I switched to lithium cells and many more volts
            > and had to go to wye. So, anyway, I've got both configurations. This should
            > be a link to the delta version:
            >
            > http://www.kkmfg.com/SFT-10-1631-000_2008_03_10.ccs
            >
            >
            > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:24 AM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Jerry,
            > > You're probably right, but I'd love to get my car to where I can drive up
            > > hills at more than 25. :P I've done the calculations myself, and after
            > > looking at the numbers, in my current configuration in WYE, I'm limiting by
            > > the minimum voltage of the DMOC. If I could get this thing to work in
            > > Delta, I'd probably be set, but I can't figure out how to get the
            > > controller to work right. If I just wire it up, it 2 phases, and I haven't
            > > been able to figure out how to get it to power all phases equally. I'm sure
            > > there's a setting somewhere, but everyone I can find with a .ccs file has
            > > the WYE version, not Delta.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Otedawg
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Collin Kidder
            The parameter file can now be found here: http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 24, 2012
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              The parameter file can now be found here:

              http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par

              As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new CCS
              and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around wires on
              terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
              loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?

              On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Collin,
              > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I
              > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par)
              > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the
              > inconvenience.
              >
              > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not
              > something hidden that Azure uses...
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Josh
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • otedawg
              I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when I was trying to test it. I m confident that I ve done it right. I even tested the leads to
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 24, 2012
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                I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.

                I'm hoping that's the problem.

                Thanks,
                Josh

                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:
                >
                > The parameter file can now be found here:
                >
                > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                >
                > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new CCS
                > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around wires on
                > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                >
                > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > Collin,
                > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I
                > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par)
                > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the
                > > inconvenience.
                > >
                > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not
                > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Josh
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Tim Brown
                Just curious, could you describe the perfomance difference on the switch from both lead acid AND switch from Delta to Wye? I assume the lead acid was
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
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                  Just curious, could you describe the perfomance difference on the switch from both lead acid AND switch from Delta to Wye?
                  I assume the lead acid was 144voltsish? and then went to 310ish? What was the top speed for both and how long 0 to 35 and 0 to 60 (assuming the delta set up could make it there). I have mine set up for 310 and Wye (i've never driven mine yet, batteries came dead). I'm sorta giving up on it to use it as my work commuter since I just got a leaf and finding that the old Zebra battery set up my car had is going to require A LOT more work and new components resulting in a huge price tag for the CALB conversion - hence I got a LEAF.

                  However I have this 2005 ECHO with the DMOCC 445 ac24 and at1200 sitting in my drive way and thought maybe it wouldn't be so costly to make it an in town machine with lead acid, but not sure if I want to do that if I can't merge into traffic well.

                  thanks
                  tim

                  On Oct 24, 2012, at 08:20 AM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

                  > I think that I've got a ccs file for a DMOC445 with AC24 motor in delta
                  > configuration. I had such a car. I drove it with lead acid batteries but it
                  > was too heavy and slow. So I switched to lithium cells and many more volts
                  > and had to go to wye. So, anyway, I've got both configurations. This should
                  > be a link to the delta version:
                  >
                  > http://www.kkmfg.com/SFT-10-1631-000_2008_03_10.ccs
                  >
                  > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:24 AM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Jerry,
                  > > You're probably right, but I'd love to get my car to where I can drive up
                  > > hills at more than 25. :P I've done the calculations myself, and after
                  > > looking at the numbers, in my current configuration in WYE, I'm limiting by
                  > > the minimum voltage of the DMOC. If I could get this thing to work in
                  > > Delta, I'd probably be set, but I can't figure out how to get the
                  > > controller to work right. If I just wire it up, it 2 phases, and I haven't
                  > > been able to figure out how to get it to power all phases equally. I'm sure
                  > > there's a setting somewhere, but everyone I can find with a .ccs file has
                  > > the WYE version, not Delta.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Otedawg
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • otedawg
                  Collin, Thanks for the help, but it turns out that your .ccs and .par files are too old for use with my controller. My DMOC has firmware dated late 2009, but
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
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                    Collin,
                    Thanks for the help, but it turns out that your .ccs and .par files are too old for use with my controller. My DMOC has firmware dated late 2009, but your files are from early 2008. I imported the .par file into my .ccs file, and it said "Cannot find EE2WYEConnected Variable"... That was the one variable that I wanted. I added the variable to my .ccs file using Azure's paperwork, to find out that it's set to 11700 ... and I have no idea what that's pointing to.

                    I guess it's back to the drawing board, with the exception of the fact that I've downloaded the full contents of the Azure website - hopefully I can figure it out from there.

                    Thanks,
                    Josh

                    --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.
                    >
                    > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Josh
                    >
                    > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                    > >
                    > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                    > >
                    > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new CCS
                    > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around wires on
                    > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                    > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                    > >
                    > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > **
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Collin,
                    > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I
                    > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par)
                    > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the
                    > > > inconvenience.
                    > > >
                    > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not
                    > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks,
                    > > > Josh
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                  • otedawg
                    Tim, I never drove the car with floodies installed. Right now, I m running 160V in WYE, which works, but is very underpowered. It acts about equivalent to a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
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                      Tim,
                      I never drove the car with floodies installed. Right now, I'm running 160V in WYE, which works, but is very underpowered. It acts about equivalent to a 2cyl vehicle - i.e. max speed 50mph after a while.
                      I bit the bullet and bought the CALBs, but I've still got to get this controller to work in Delta.

                      Thanks,
                      Josh

                      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Tim Brown <tbrown93@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Just curious, could you describe the perfomance difference on the switch from both lead acid AND switch from Delta to Wye?
                      > I assume the lead acid was 144voltsish? and then went to 310ish? What was the top speed for both and how long 0 to 35 and 0 to 60 (assuming the delta set up could make it there). I have mine set up for 310 and Wye (i've never driven mine yet, batteries came dead). I'm sorta giving up on it to use it as my work commuter since I just got a leaf and finding that the old Zebra battery set up my car had is going to require A LOT more work and new components resulting in a huge price tag for the CALB conversion - hence I got a LEAF.
                      >
                      > However I have this 2005 ECHO with the DMOCC 445 ac24 and at1200 sitting in my drive way and thought maybe it wouldn't be so costly to make it an in town machine with lead acid, but not sure if I want to do that if I can't merge into traffic well.
                      >
                      > thanks
                      > tim
                      >
                      > On Oct 24, 2012, at 08:20 AM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I think that I've got a ccs file for a DMOC445 with AC24 motor in delta
                      > > configuration. I had such a car. I drove it with lead acid batteries but it
                      > > was too heavy and slow. So I switched to lithium cells and many more volts
                      > > and had to go to wye. So, anyway, I've got both configurations. This should
                      > > be a link to the delta version:
                      > >
                      > > http://www.kkmfg.com/SFT-10-1631-000_2008_03_10.ccs
                      > >
                      > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:24 AM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > **
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Jerry,
                      > > > You're probably right, but I'd love to get my car to where I can drive up
                      > > > hills at more than 25. :P I've done the calculations myself, and after
                      > > > looking at the numbers, in my current configuration in WYE, I'm limiting by
                      > > > the minimum voltage of the DMOC. If I could get this thing to work in
                      > > > Delta, I'd probably be set, but I can't figure out how to get the
                      > > > controller to work right. If I just wire it up, it 2 phases, and I haven't
                      > > > been able to figure out how to get it to power all phases equally. I'm sure
                      > > > there's a setting somewhere, but everyone I can find with a .ccs file has
                      > > > the WYE version, not Delta.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks,
                      > > > Otedawg
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • geo_homsy2
                      Hi Josh- question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its drive characteristics when it s configured for delta or for wye. Can you
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
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                        Hi Josh-

                        question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?

                        I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for delta vs. wye.

                        yours,

                        //Geo

                        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.
                        >
                        > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Josh
                        >
                        > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                        > >
                        > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                        > >
                        > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new CCS
                        > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around wires on
                        > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                        > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                        > >
                        > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > **
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Collin,
                        > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I
                        > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par)
                        > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the
                        > > > inconvenience.
                        > > >
                        > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not
                        > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks,
                        > > > Josh
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • otedawg
                        Geo, Of course I can help out. I didn t know all of this till recently, but I am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before. I guess I ll
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Geo,
                          Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.

                          I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, & C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.

                          A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).

                          I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.

                          Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                          Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg

                          Hopefully that's helpful.

                          Thanks,
                          Josh



                          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Josh-
                          >
                          > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                          >
                          > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for delta vs. wye.
                          >
                          > yours,
                          >
                          > //Geo
                          >
                          > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.
                          > >
                          > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                          > >
                          > > Thanks,
                          > > Josh
                          > >
                          > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                          > > >
                          > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new CCS
                          > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around wires on
                          > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                          > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                          > > >
                          > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > **
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Collin,
                          > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I
                          > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par)
                          > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the
                          > > > > inconvenience.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not
                          > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thanks,
                          > > > > Josh
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • otedawg
                          I guess what I really need to do is reprogram my DMOC. It seems that there were 2 different program versions, one for Y and one for Delta... I ve got the one
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I guess what I really need to do is reprogram my DMOC. It seems that there were 2 different program versions, one for Y and one for Delta... I've got the one for Y.

                            Does anybody have an Azure .hex file that I can use to reprogram my controller? How about the .hex file that was used to program it to Y in the first place?

                            :crickets:

                            Thanks,
                            Josh

                            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Collin,
                            > Thanks for the help, but it turns out that your .ccs and .par files are too old for use with my controller. My DMOC has firmware dated late 2009, but your files are from early 2008. I imported the .par file into my .ccs file, and it said "Cannot find EE2WYEConnected Variable"... That was the one variable that I wanted. I added the variable to my .ccs file using Azure's paperwork, to find out that it's set to 11700 ... and I have no idea what that's pointing to.
                            >
                            > I guess it's back to the drawing board, with the exception of the fact that I've downloaded the full contents of the Azure website - hopefully I can figure it out from there.
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            > Josh
                            >
                            > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.
                            > >
                            > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks,
                            > > Josh
                            > >
                            > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                            > > >
                            > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new CCS
                            > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around wires on
                            > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                            > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                            > > >
                            > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > **
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Collin,
                            > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I
                            > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par)
                            > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the
                            > > > > inconvenience.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not
                            > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thanks,
                            > > > > Josh
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Gordon Stallings
                            Now I m the one who is confused. If you are going to a higher pack voltage with the CALBs, wouldn t the wye configuration be preferred, since it can handle
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
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                              Now I'm the one who is confused. If you are going to a higher pack
                              voltage with the CALBs, wouldn't the wye configuration be preferred,
                              since it can handle the higher voltage? If so, why are you trying to
                              switch to delta?
                              --Gordon--
                              On Oct 25, 2012, at 5:44 PM, otedawg wrote:

                              > I guess what I really need to do is reprogram my DMOC. It seems that
                              > there were 2 different program versions, one for Y and one for
                              > Delta... I've got the one for Y.
                              >
                              > Does anybody have an Azure .hex file that I can use to reprogram my
                              > controller? How about the .hex file that was used to program it to Y
                              > in the first place?
                              >
                              > :crickets:
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Josh
                              >
                              > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >>
                              >> Collin,
                              >> Thanks for the help, but it turns out that your .ccs and .par files
                              >> are too old for use with my controller. My DMOC has firmware dated
                              >> late 2009, but your files are from early 2008. I imported the .par
                              >> file into my .ccs file, and it said "Cannot find EE2WYEConnected
                              >> Variable"... That was the one variable that I wanted. I added the
                              >> variable to my .ccs file using Azure's paperwork, to find out that
                              >> it's set to 11700 ... and I have no idea what that's pointing to.
                              >>
                              >> I guess it's back to the drawing board, with the exception of the
                              >> fact that I've downloaded the full contents of the Azure website -
                              >> hopefully I can figure it out from there.
                              >>
                              >> Thanks,
                              >> Josh
                              >>
                              >> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                              >> wrote:
                              >>>
                              >>> I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth
                              >>> when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it
                              >>> right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is
                              >>> correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing
                              >>> that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power
                              >>> outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.
                              >>>
                              >>> I'm hoping that's the problem.
                              >>>
                              >>> Thanks,
                              >>> Josh
                              >>>
                              >>> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                              >>>>
                              >>>> The parameter file can now be found here:
                              >>>>
                              >>>> http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                              >>>>
                              >>>> As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
                              >>>> new CCS
                              >>>> and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                              >>>> around wires on
                              >>>> terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                              >>>> loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                              >>>>
                              >>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                              >>>>
                              >>>>> **
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> Collin,
                              >>>>> Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                              >>>>> file when I
                              >>>>> get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
                              >>>>> (.par)
                              >>>>> file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
                              >>>>> the
                              >>>>> inconvenience.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                              >>>>> change, not
                              >>>>> something hidden that Azure uses...
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> Thanks,
                              >>>>> Josh
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>>>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • otedawg
                              Gordon, I want to upgrade the voltage, but in the meantime it would be nice to be able to run in delta, as long as I can get back to wye when I upgrade the
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Gordon,
                                I want to upgrade the voltage, but in the meantime it would be nice to be able to run in delta, as long as I can get back to wye when I upgrade the voltage.

                                Thanks,
                                Josh

                                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Stallings <genki@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Now I'm the one who is confused. If you are going to a higher pack
                                > voltage with the CALBs, wouldn't the wye configuration be preferred,
                                > since it can handle the higher voltage? If so, why are you trying to
                                > switch to delta?
                                > --Gordon--
                                > On Oct 25, 2012, at 5:44 PM, otedawg wrote:
                                >
                                > > I guess what I really need to do is reprogram my DMOC. It seems that
                                > > there were 2 different program versions, one for Y and one for
                                > > Delta... I've got the one for Y.
                                > >
                                > > Does anybody have an Azure .hex file that I can use to reprogram my
                                > > controller? How about the .hex file that was used to program it to Y
                                > > in the first place?
                                > >
                                > > :crickets:
                                > >
                                > > Thanks,
                                > > Josh
                                > >
                                > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >> Collin,
                                > >> Thanks for the help, but it turns out that your .ccs and .par files
                                > >> are too old for use with my controller. My DMOC has firmware dated
                                > >> late 2009, but your files are from early 2008. I imported the .par
                                > >> file into my .ccs file, and it said "Cannot find EE2WYEConnected
                                > >> Variable"... That was the one variable that I wanted. I added the
                                > >> variable to my .ccs file using Azure's paperwork, to find out that
                                > >> it's set to 11700 ... and I have no idea what that's pointing to.
                                > >>
                                > >> I guess it's back to the drawing board, with the exception of the
                                > >> fact that I've downloaded the full contents of the Azure website -
                                > >> hopefully I can figure it out from there.
                                > >>
                                > >> Thanks,
                                > >> Josh
                                > >>
                                > >> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                > >> wrote:
                                > >>>
                                > >>> I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth
                                > >>> when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it
                                > >>> right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is
                                > >>> correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing
                                > >>> that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power
                                > >>> outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Thanks,
                                > >>> Josh
                                > >>>
                                > >>> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>> The parameter file can now be found here:
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>> http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>> As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
                                > >>>> new CCS
                                > >>>> and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                                > >>>> around wires on
                                > >>>> terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                                > >>>> loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>>> **
                                > >>>>>
                                > >>>>>
                                > >>>>> Collin,
                                > >>>>> Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                                > >>>>> file when I
                                > >>>>> get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
                                > >>>>> (.par)
                                > >>>>> file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
                                > >>>>> the
                                > >>>>> inconvenience.
                                > >>>>>
                                > >>>>> Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                > >>>>> change, not
                                > >>>>> something hidden that Azure uses...
                                > >>>>>
                                > >>>>> Thanks,
                                > >>>>> Josh
                                > >>>>>
                                > >>>>>
                                > >>>>>
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • geo_homsy2
                                Hi Josh- I m familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 25, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Josh-

                                  I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor of sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.

                                  What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases R, S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase. Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.

                                  You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three outputs should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.

                                  Yours,

                                  //Geo


                                  --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Geo,
                                  > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
                                  >
                                  > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, & C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.
                                  >
                                  > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).
                                  >
                                  > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                  >
                                  > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                  > Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                  >
                                  > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  > Josh
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Josh-
                                  > >
                                  > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                  > >
                                  > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for delta vs. wye.
                                  > >
                                  > > yours,
                                  > >
                                  > > //Geo
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for WYE.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks,
                                  > > > Josh
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a new CCS
                                  > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around wires on
                                  > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                                  > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > **
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Collin,
                                  > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this file when I
                                  > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter (.par)
                                  > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for the
                                  > > > > > inconvenience.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter change, not
                                  > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thanks,
                                  > > > > > Josh
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Wolf
                                  The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when wired in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged current. ...
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Oct 26, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when wired
                                    in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                    current.
                                    On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Josh-
                                    >
                                    > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between
                                    > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
                                    > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor of
                                    > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                    >
                                    > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases R,
                                    > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
                                    > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
                                    > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                    >
                                    > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and
                                    > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                    > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three outputs
                                    > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                    >
                                    > Yours,
                                    >
                                    > //Geo
                                    >
                                    > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Geo,
                                    > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I
                                    > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
                                    > >
                                    > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the
                                    > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all
                                    > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
                                    > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the
                                    > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, &
                                    > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.
                                    > >
                                    > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
                                    > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across
                                    > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got
                                    > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
                                    > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor
                                    > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage
                                    > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                    > >
                                    > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                    > > Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                    > >
                                    > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks,
                                    > > Josh
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi Josh-
                                    > > >
                                    > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its
                                    > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you
                                    > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why
                                    > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
                                    > delta vs. wye.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > yours,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > //Geo
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when
                                    > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
                                    > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
                                    > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
                                    > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                    > WYE.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Thanks,
                                    > > > > Josh
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
                                    > new CCS
                                    > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around
                                    > wires on
                                    > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                                    > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > **
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Collin,
                                    > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                                    > file when I
                                    > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
                                    > (.par)
                                    > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
                                    > the
                                    > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                    > change, not
                                    > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Thanks,
                                    > > > > > > Josh
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • otedawg
                                    Geo, Sorry about that. Sometimes I type, and sometimes I think - sometimes I do both at the same time too - I promise! I think I was trying to get 2 thoughts
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Oct 26, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Geo,
                                      Sorry about that. Sometimes I type, and sometimes I think - sometimes I do both at the same time too - I promise!

                                      I think I was trying to get 2 thoughts out at once, and I started with the first, and finished with the second... but I don't remember what I was trying to say now. Sorry for mixing you up.

                                      ---

                                      Well, I guess I'll give a couple things a shot tomorrow - I'm making a new .par file to test the car with based on the differences between what I'm pretty sure is an original WYE .par file and an original Delta .par file. After comparing the files, I've come up with this list:

                                      EE2IdMax
                                      EE2IqIdMaxRatio
                                      EE2IqMaxSlew
                                      EE2IRegSatEnable
                                      EE2IsKi
                                      EE2IsKp
                                      EE2IsMax
                                      EE2IsMaxTherm
                                      EE2IsMaxThermSpeed
                                      EE2IsMaxThermSpeedRamp
                                      EE2IsQKi
                                      EE2IsQKp
                                      EE2KVPsiMaxT
                                      EE2LSigma
                                      EE2LSyncCap
                                      EE2LSyncMax
                                      EE2PsiOptMax
                                      EE2PsiRIs63
                                      EE2SlipConstant
                                      EE2SpeedDeltaFaultThr
                                      EE2StatorResistance
                                      EE2TorqueEstEnableVoltage
                                      EE2TorqueEstRampVoltage
                                      EE2TorqueInductance
                                      EE2TPerPsi

                                      I'll change everything here to the value in the Delta parameter file, and see how things go with setting the missing variables in the delta file to 0 or whatever they're already set to. Maybe this will work...

                                      Thanks,
                                      Josh


                                      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when wired
                                      > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                      > current.
                                      > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Josh-
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between
                                      > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
                                      > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor of
                                      > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                      > >
                                      > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases R,
                                      > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
                                      > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
                                      > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                      > >
                                      > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and
                                      > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                      > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three outputs
                                      > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                      > >
                                      > > Yours,
                                      > >
                                      > > //Geo
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Geo,
                                      > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I
                                      > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the
                                      > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all
                                      > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
                                      > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the
                                      > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, &
                                      > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
                                      > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across
                                      > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got
                                      > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
                                      > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor
                                      > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage
                                      > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                      > > > Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks,
                                      > > > Josh
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hi Josh-
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its
                                      > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you
                                      > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why
                                      > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
                                      > > delta vs. wye.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > yours,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > //Geo
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when
                                      > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
                                      > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
                                      > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
                                      > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                      > > WYE.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Thanks,
                                      > > > > > Josh
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
                                      > > new CCS
                                      > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around
                                      > > wires on
                                      > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                                      > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > **
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Collin,
                                      > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                                      > > file when I
                                      > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
                                      > > (.par)
                                      > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                      > > change, not
                                      > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                      > > > > > > > Josh
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • geo_homsy2
                                      Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Oct 27, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!

                                        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when wired
                                        > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                        > current.
                                        > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Josh-
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between
                                        > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
                                        > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor of
                                        > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                        > >
                                        > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases R,
                                        > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
                                        > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
                                        > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                        > >
                                        > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and
                                        > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                        > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three outputs
                                        > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                        > >
                                        > > Yours,
                                        > >
                                        > > //Geo
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Geo,
                                        > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I
                                        > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the
                                        > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all
                                        > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
                                        > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the
                                        > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, &
                                        > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
                                        > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across
                                        > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got
                                        > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
                                        > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor
                                        > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage
                                        > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                        > > > Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thanks,
                                        > > > Josh
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hi Josh-
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its
                                        > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you
                                        > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why
                                        > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
                                        > > delta vs. wye.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > yours,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > //Geo
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when
                                        > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
                                        > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
                                        > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
                                        > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                        > > WYE.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Thanks,
                                        > > > > > Josh
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
                                        > > new CCS
                                        > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around
                                        > > wires on
                                        > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                                        > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > **
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Collin,
                                        > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                                        > > file when I
                                        > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
                                        > > (.par)
                                        > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
                                        > > the
                                        > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                        > > change, not
                                        > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                        > > > > > > > Josh
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Lawrence Winiarski
                                        Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn t the lag of the phasor (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip? I d think the actual
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Oct 27, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
                                          I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.

                                          Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the phasor angle varies from the static position.
                                           
                                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged world.
                                          Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934


                                          ________________________________
                                          From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
                                          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
                                          Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter ...]


                                           
                                          Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!

                                          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when wired
                                          > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                          > current.
                                          > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Josh-
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference between
                                          > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
                                          > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor of
                                          > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                          > >
                                          > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases R,
                                          > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
                                          > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
                                          > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                          > >
                                          > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart' and
                                          > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                          > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three outputs
                                          > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                          > >
                                          > > Yours,
                                          > >
                                          > > //Geo
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Geo,
                                          > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently, but I
                                          > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in the
                                          > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage on all
                                          > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
                                          > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of the
                                          > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B, B-C, &
                                          > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at 240degrees.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
                                          > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage across
                                          > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is 1.73).
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've got
                                          > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
                                          > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta motor
                                          > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the voltage
                                          > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                          > > > Motor Depictions: http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thanks,
                                          > > > Josh
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hi Josh-
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in its
                                          > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can you
                                          > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's why
                                          > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
                                          > > delta vs. wye.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > yours,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > //Geo
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth when
                                          > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
                                          > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
                                          > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
                                          > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                          > > WYE.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Thanks,
                                          > > > > > Josh
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@> wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got a
                                          > > new CCS
                                          > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch around
                                          > > wires on
                                          > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and back by
                                          > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done that?
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@> wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > **
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Collin,
                                          > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                                          > > file when I
                                          > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the parameter
                                          > > (.par)
                                          > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry for
                                          > > the
                                          > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                          > > change, not
                                          > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                          > > > > > > > Josh
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Wolf
                                          It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular, instead of
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Oct 27, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
                                            from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular,
                                            instead of sinusoidal.

                                            Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...

                                            You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
                                            to the rotor.
                                            On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>
                                            wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
                                            > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
                                            > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the
                                            > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
                                            >
                                            > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the
                                            > phasor angle varies from the static position.
                                            >
                                            > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                            > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be
                                            > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged
                                            > world.
                                            > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________
                                            > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
                                            > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
                                            > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
                                            > DC-DC Converter ...]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
                                            >
                                            > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
                                            > wired
                                            > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                            > > current.
                                            > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > **
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hi Josh-
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
                                            > between
                                            > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
                                            > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor
                                            > of
                                            > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases
                                            > R,
                                            > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
                                            > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
                                            > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
                                            > and
                                            > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                            > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
                                            > outputs
                                            > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Yours,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > //Geo
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Geo,
                                            > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently,
                                            > but I
                                            > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in
                                            > the
                                            > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage
                                            > on all
                                            > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
                                            > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of
                                            > the
                                            > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B,
                                            > B-C, &
                                            > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
                                            > 240degrees.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
                                            > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
                                            > across
                                            > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
                                            > 1.73).
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've
                                            > got
                                            > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
                                            > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta
                                            > motor
                                            > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
                                            > voltage
                                            > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                            > > > > Motor Depictions:
                                            > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Thanks,
                                            > > > > Josh
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Hi Josh-
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in
                                            > its
                                            > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can
                                            > you
                                            > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's
                                            > why
                                            > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
                                            > > > delta vs. wye.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > yours,
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > //Geo
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                            > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth
                                            > when
                                            > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
                                            > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
                                            > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
                                            > 'smart'
                                            > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
                                            > for
                                            > > > WYE.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Thanks,
                                            > > > > > > Josh
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got
                                            > a
                                            > > > new CCS
                                            > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                                            > around
                                            > > > wires on
                                            > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
                                            > back by
                                            > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
                                            > that?
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > **
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Collin,
                                            > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                                            > > > file when I
                                            > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
                                            > parameter
                                            > > > (.par)
                                            > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry
                                            > for
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                            > > > change, not
                                            > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                            > > > > > > > > Josh
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • otedawg
                                            FINALLY! I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              FINALLY!
                                              I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can post .par files for both delta and wye.


                                              Thanks for all the help,
                                              Josh

                                              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
                                              > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular,
                                              > instead of sinusoidal.
                                              >
                                              > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...
                                              >
                                              > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
                                              > to the rotor.
                                              > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
                                              > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
                                              > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the
                                              > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
                                              > >
                                              > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the
                                              > > phasor angle varies from the static position.
                                              > >
                                              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                              > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be
                                              > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged
                                              > > world.
                                              > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
                                              > >
                                              > > ________________________________
                                              > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
                                              > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
                                              > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
                                              > > DC-DC Converter ...]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
                                              > > wired
                                              > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                              > > > current.
                                              > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > **
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Hi Josh-
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
                                              > > between
                                              > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
                                              > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor
                                              > > of
                                              > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases
                                              > > R,
                                              > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
                                              > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
                                              > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
                                              > > and
                                              > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
                                              > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
                                              > > outputs
                                              > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Yours,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > //Geo
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Geo,
                                              > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently,
                                              > > but I
                                              > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in
                                              > > the
                                              > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage
                                              > > on all
                                              > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
                                              > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of
                                              > > the
                                              > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B,
                                              > > B-C, &
                                              > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
                                              > > 240degrees.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
                                              > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
                                              > > across
                                              > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
                                              > > 1.73).
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've
                                              > > got
                                              > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
                                              > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta
                                              > > motor
                                              > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
                                              > > voltage
                                              > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                              > > > > > Motor Depictions:
                                              > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Thanks,
                                              > > > > > Josh
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Hi Josh-
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in
                                              > > its
                                              > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can
                                              > > you
                                              > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's
                                              > > why
                                              > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
                                              > > > > delta vs. wye.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > yours,
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > //Geo
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                              > > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth
                                              > > when
                                              > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
                                              > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
                                              > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
                                              > > 'smart'
                                              > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
                                              > > for
                                              > > > > WYE.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                              > > > > > > > Josh
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got
                                              > > a
                                              > > > > new CCS
                                              > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                                              > > around
                                              > > > > wires on
                                              > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
                                              > > back by
                                              > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
                                              > > that?
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > > **
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > > Collin,
                                              > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
                                              > > > > file when I
                                              > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
                                              > > parameter
                                              > > > > (.par)
                                              > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry
                                              > > for
                                              > > > > the
                                              > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                              > > > > change, not
                                              > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                              > > > > > > > > > Josh
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • Gerry Gaydos
                                              Hi Josh,That s great news. I d be interested in receiving the .par files you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry Internal combustion is so last century ...
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi Josh,That's great news. I'd be interested in receiving the .par files you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry

                                                "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto�, Electrifying Cars! 250 598 3100

                                                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: joshua.orfield@...
                                                Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:21:44 +0000
                                                Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter ...]


























                                                FINALLY!

                                                I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can post .par files for both delta and wye.



                                                Thanks for all the help,

                                                Josh



                                                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:

                                                >

                                                > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change

                                                > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular,

                                                > instead of sinusoidal.

                                                >

                                                > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...

                                                >

                                                > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power

                                                > to the rotor.

                                                > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>

                                                > wrote:

                                                >

                                                > > **

                                                > >

                                                > >

                                                > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor

                                                > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?

                                                > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the

                                                > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.

                                                > >

                                                > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the

                                                > > phasor angle varies from the static position.

                                                > >

                                                > > ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be

                                                > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged

                                                > > world.

                                                > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934

                                                > >

                                                > > ________________________________

                                                > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>

                                                > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com

                                                > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM

                                                > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -

                                                > > DC-DC Converter ...]

                                                > >

                                                > >

                                                > >

                                                > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!

                                                > >

                                                > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:

                                                > > >

                                                > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when

                                                > > wired

                                                > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged

                                                > > > current.

                                                > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:

                                                > > >

                                                > > > > **

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > > Hi Josh-

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference

                                                > > between

                                                > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as

                                                > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor

                                                > > of

                                                > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases

                                                > > R,

                                                > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.

                                                > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the

                                                > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'

                                                > > and

                                                > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for

                                                > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three

                                                > > outputs

                                                > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > > Yours,

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > > //Geo

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>

                                                > > wrote:

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > Geo,

                                                > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently,

                                                > > but I

                                                > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in

                                                > > the

                                                > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage

                                                > > on all

                                                > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the

                                                > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of

                                                > > the

                                                > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B,

                                                > > B-C, &

                                                > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at

                                                > > 240degrees.

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To

                                                > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage

                                                > > across

                                                > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is

                                                > > 1.73).

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've

                                                > > got

                                                > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage

                                                > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta

                                                > > motor

                                                > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the

                                                > > voltage

                                                > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm

                                                > > > > > Motor Depictions:

                                                > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > Thanks,

                                                > > > > > Josh

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>

                                                > > wrote:

                                                > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > Hi Josh-

                                                > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in

                                                > > its

                                                > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can

                                                > > you

                                                > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?

                                                > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's

                                                > > why

                                                > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for

                                                > > > > delta vs. wye.

                                                > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > yours,

                                                > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > //Geo

                                                > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>

                                                > > > > wrote:

                                                > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth

                                                > > when

                                                > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even

                                                > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my

                                                > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was

                                                > > 'smart'

                                                > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should

                                                > > for

                                                > > > > WYE.

                                                > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.

                                                > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > Thanks,

                                                > > > > > > > Josh

                                                > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@>

                                                > > wrote:

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got

                                                > > a

                                                > > > > new CCS

                                                > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch

                                                > > around

                                                > > > > wires on

                                                > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and

                                                > > back by

                                                > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done

                                                > > that?

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@>

                                                > > wrote:

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > > **

                                                > > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > > Collin,

                                                > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this

                                                > > > > file when I

                                                > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the

                                                > > parameter

                                                > > > > (.par)

                                                > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry

                                                > > for

                                                > > > > the

                                                > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.

                                                > > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter

                                                > > > > change, not

                                                > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...

                                                > > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > > Thanks,

                                                > > > > > > > > > Josh

                                                > > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                > > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > > >

                                                > > > > > >

                                                > > > > >

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > >

                                                > > > >

                                                > > >

                                                > > >

                                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                > > >

                                                > >

                                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                > >

                                                > >

                                                > >

                                                >

                                                >

                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                >


















                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Newton Hausermann
                                                Hi josh any information/files on this we d love to use these as a base level for our project, particularly the detla configuration. ... [Non-text portions of
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi josh any information/files on this we'd love to use these as a base
                                                  level for our project, particularly the detla configuration.

                                                  On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Gerry Gaydos <gerry.gaydos@...>wrote:

                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Josh,That's great news. I'd be interested in receiving the .par files
                                                  > you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry
                                                  >
                                                  > "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto�, Electrifying Cars!
                                                  > 250 598 3100
                                                  >
                                                  > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > From: joshua.orfield@...
                                                  > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:21:44 +0000
                                                  > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
                                                  > DC-DC Converter ...]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > FINALLY!
                                                  >
                                                  > I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters
                                                  > together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my
                                                  > multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've
                                                  > been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can
                                                  > post .par files for both delta and wye.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks for all the help,
                                                  >
                                                  > Josh
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
                                                  >
                                                  > > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look
                                                  > triangular,
                                                  >
                                                  > > instead of sinusoidal.
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
                                                  >
                                                  > > to the rotor.
                                                  >
                                                  > > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>
                                                  >
                                                  > > wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > **
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
                                                  >
                                                  > > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
                                                  >
                                                  > > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as
                                                  > the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much
                                                  > the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > phasor angle varies from the static position.
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it
                                                  > will be
                                                  >
                                                  > > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a
                                                  > ravaged
                                                  >
                                                  > > > world.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > ________________________________
                                                  >
                                                  > > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
                                                  >
                                                  > > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >
                                                  > > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
                                                  >
                                                  > > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade
                                                  > voltage -
                                                  >
                                                  > > > DC-DC Converter ...]
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
                                                  >
                                                  > > > wired
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > current.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > **
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > Hi Josh-
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
                                                  >
                                                  > > > between
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it
                                                  > as
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a
                                                  > factor
                                                  >
                                                  > > > of
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares!
                                                  > Phases
                                                  >
                                                  > > > R,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of
                                                  > phase.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to
                                                  > know the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was
                                                  > 'smart'
                                                  >
                                                  > > > and
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
                                                  > for
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
                                                  >
                                                  > > > outputs
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > Yours,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > //Geo
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                                  >
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > Geo,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till
                                                  > recently,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > but I
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors
                                                  > before.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor
                                                  > wired in
                                                  >
                                                  > > > the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same
                                                  > voltage
                                                  >
                                                  > > > on all
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on
                                                  > the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3
                                                  > points of
                                                  >
                                                  > > > the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase
                                                  > A-B,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > B-C, &
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
                                                  >
                                                  > > > 240degrees.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name).
                                                  > To
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
                                                  >
                                                  > > > across
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
                                                  >
                                                  > > > 1.73).
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there.
                                                  > You've
                                                  >
                                                  > > > got
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different
                                                  > voltage
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A
                                                  > delta
                                                  >
                                                  > > > motor
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > voltage
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > Motor Depictions:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > Thanks,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > Josh
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
                                                  >
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > Hi Josh-
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs
                                                  > in
                                                  >
                                                  > > > its
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye.
                                                  > Can
                                                  >
                                                  > > > you
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and
                                                  > that's
                                                  >
                                                  > > > why
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a
                                                  > setting for
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > delta vs. wye.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > yours,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > //Geo
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg"
                                                  > <joshua.orfield@>
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and
                                                  > forth
                                                  >
                                                  > > > when
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I
                                                  > even
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think
                                                  > that my
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
                                                  >
                                                  > > > 'smart'
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it
                                                  > should
                                                  >
                                                  > > > for
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > WYE.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > Josh
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I
                                                  > got
                                                  >
                                                  > > > a
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > new CCS
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                                                  >
                                                  > > > around
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > wires on
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
                                                  >
                                                  > > > back by
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
                                                  >
                                                  > > > that?
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > **
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > Collin,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with
                                                  > this
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > file when I
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > parameter
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > (.par)
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file?
                                                  > Sorry
                                                  >
                                                  > > > for
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > the
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > change, not
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > > Josh
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
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                                                  >
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                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • otedawg
                                                  Newton, Gerry, I ve uploaded the files to the files section of the site. I have a later version of the Delta file, but I m still waiting to see how well it
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Newton, Gerry,
                                                    I've uploaded the files to the files section of the site. I have a later version of the Delta file, but I'm still waiting to see how well it pans out in my car... I've changed the econ mode to 15kw, and some of the torque/brake slew variables to try to fix a few issues I had with Regen.

                                                    I've also got the latest ccs program (3.1.8.01/03) and a bunch of .par/.ccs files from Azure's website, but they don't seem to be very useful. (I setup a crawler and downloaded everything I could.)

                                                    Let me know if I can help with anything.
                                                    Josh
                                                    The EV grin works great at 70mph...

                                                    --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Newton Hausermann <rclugnut@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi josh any information/files on this we'd love to use these as a base
                                                    > level for our project, particularly the detla configuration.
                                                    >
                                                    > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Gerry Gaydos <gerry.gaydos@...>wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hi Josh,That's great news. I'd be interested in receiving the .par files
                                                    > > you came up with/used. Thanks,Gerry
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "Internal combustion is so last century"... Funkymoto™, Electrifying Cars!
                                                    > > 250 598 3100
                                                    > >
                                                    > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > From: joshua.orfield@...
                                                    > > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:21:44 +0000
                                                    > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
                                                    > > DC-DC Converter ...]
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > FINALLY!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters
                                                    > > together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my
                                                    > > multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've
                                                    > > been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can
                                                    > > post .par files for both delta and wye.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thanks for all the help,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Josh
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look
                                                    > > triangular,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > instead of sinusoidal.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...
                                                    > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > to the rotor.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > **
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as
                                                    > > the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much
                                                    > > the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > phasor angle varies from the static position.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it
                                                    > > will be
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a
                                                    > > ravaged
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > world.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > ________________________________
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade
                                                    > > voltage -
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > DC-DC Converter ...]
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > wired
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > current.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > **
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > Hi Josh-
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > between
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it
                                                    > > as
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a
                                                    > > factor
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > of
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares!
                                                    > > Phases
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > R,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of
                                                    > > phase.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to
                                                    > > know the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was
                                                    > > 'smart'
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > and
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
                                                    > > for
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > outputs
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > Yours,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > //Geo
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Geo,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till
                                                    > > recently,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > but I
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors
                                                    > > before.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor
                                                    > > wired in
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same
                                                    > > voltage
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > on all
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on
                                                    > > the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3
                                                    > > points of
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase
                                                    > > A-B,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > B-C, &
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > 240degrees.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name).
                                                    > > To
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > across
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > 1.73).
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there.
                                                    > > You've
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > got
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different
                                                    > > voltage
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A
                                                    > > delta
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > motor
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > voltage
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Motor Depictions:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Josh
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Hi Josh-
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs
                                                    > > in
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > its
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye.
                                                    > > Can
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > you
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and
                                                    > > that's
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > why
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a
                                                    > > setting for
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > delta vs. wye.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > yours,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > //Geo
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg"
                                                    > > <joshua.orfield@>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and
                                                    > > forth
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > when
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I
                                                    > > even
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think
                                                    > > that my
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > 'smart'
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it
                                                    > > should
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > for
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > WYE.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > Josh
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I
                                                    > > got
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > a
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > new CCS
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > around
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > wires on
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > back by
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > that?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > **
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > Collin,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with
                                                    > > this
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > file when I
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > parameter
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > (.par)
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file?
                                                    > > Sorry
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > for
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > the
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > change, not
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > > Josh
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > >
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                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > >
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                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > >
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