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Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Solectria E10 - The Lazarus Project

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  • Wolf
    1. Recover each individual battery with a 13.8V @ 2 Amp charge for 24 hours. Let the battery sit for an hour, then measure the open circuit voltage, it should
    Message 1 of 43 , Sep 7, 2012
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      1. Recover each individual battery with a 13.8V @ 2 Amp charge for 24 hours.

      Let the battery sit for an hour, then measure the open circuit voltage, it
      should be around 13 volts. Place a 1 ohm 500 Watt load on the battery for
      30 seconds, if the battery voltage stays above 12 volts, it is ready to use.

      For the batteries that did not pass place back on the 13.8V @ 2 Amp charge
      for another 24 hours. Then try again.

      For the batteries that passed the first test, you need to cycle them a few
      times to rebuild and desulfate the plates, they will only have about a 10
      amp-hour capacity at first, each cycle will recover more capacity, until
      they plateau around 50-60 amp-hours.

      Around 12 years ago (can't believe it has been that long), there was a
      computer controlled battery tester in the EV lab, (it was in the cage with
      all the batteries) where you could write a script and have it charge and
      discharge the battery. It would give you a printout of the capacity,
      internal resistance, and the such.

      It it is still around use it, and write a script (there should be many
      scripts on it all ready that you can modify) that will discharge at 20 amps
      to 10 volts, charge at 10 amps to 15 volts. Record last amp-hour capacity,
      and keep cycling till there is only about a 1 amp-hour difference between
      cycles. Then label that battery with its capacity.

      2. I doubt it the bulk caps are only rated to 250 Volts, it would have an
      AMC 230 controller rated to 300 Volts.

      3. 130 is the min voltage cut out, so your supply should be able to power
      it on.

      I would recommend that you unplug the power steering and vacuum pumps, and
      turn off the radio and all lights.

      You will need an RS485 to RS232 adapter to hook a laptop up to the
      controller and the AMC program to read/write settings.

      Then hook up your supply and turn the key and see what happens.
      On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Drew Witte <dwitte82@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > This is sweet that we found someone who has actually driven our E10.
      >
      > A few questions:
      >
      > 1) Don and Wolf, How did you recharge the Panasonic OEM batteries that had
      > been sitting around for years with no voltage on them? 12 Volt trickle
      > charge? What Amperage? We are going to try to revive the batteries to
      > have something to test with until we get our Li Batteries.
      >
      > 2) Wolf, do you know if our AMC325 was ever hooked up to the 228
      > Volt battery pack?
      > The User's Manual I have to the AMC325 says the Max Voltage Range is
      > 119-225 V.
      > Absolute Maximal Battery Voltage (cut off) is 230-242 V
      > The 228 Volts seem like its very close to the high voltage recommended for
      > the AMC325. When the batteries are charged, the voltage would be over
      > these values.
      >
      > 3) If we hooked up a 130VDC 5 Amp power supply to the battery terminals on
      > the AMC325, would we be able to hook up a computer and look at the current
      > parameters loaded onto the controller? What is the lowest battery voltage
      > that we need to look at the programming parameters?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Drew
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Wolf <wolf@...>
      > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2012 10:14 PM
      >
      > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Solectria E10 - The Lazarus Project
      >
      > I went to school at IUPUI. I actually drove that exact E10 back in
      > 1999-2000. :)
      >
      > It was the reason I got my E10.
      > http://www.wolftronix.com/E10/index.html
      >
      > It was originally 144 volts... But I think Dr. Chen (might have the wrong
      > professor) was working on an IGBT based AC induction vector controller, so
      > it was re-wired for the higher voltage.
      >
      > If it still has the original Solectria volt meter it should say 100-200V on
      > it.
      >
      > Those are the same batteries that the Formula Lightning (EV race car) ran
      > on, that is why they are in the truck.
      >
      > We where building our Battle Bot in the EV lab at the same time. I got to
      > take the E10 out for a spin, I was hooked. ;)
      >
      > I am over in Champaign Illinois if you guys need any help. :)
      >
      > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 8:42 PM, jacambri <jacambri@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > I don't think so, but I could be wrong. From my knowledge the EV Lab had
      > a
      > > race car they worked on and raced it in some EV series. I could be wrong
      > > though. It was bought by a company in Indianapolis and then donated I
      > > believe to IUPUI.
      > >
      > > Jason
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Those are OEM Panasonic EV batteries, they are 12V AGM, mine came with
      > > > black ones:
      > > > http://www.wolftronix.com/E10/images/P3260158.jpg
      > > >
      > > > They are the same batteries that GM used in the EV1.
      > > >
      > > > Is this the E10 at IUPUI, the one that was in the Electric Vehicle Lab?
      > > >
      > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:37 PM, William Swann <william.swann2@
      > ...>wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > > That is an unusually shaped battery. The normal lead battery is an
      > > 8G27 as
      > > > > shown at MK Battery (from Penn Battery) I see 16. Were there 3 in the
      > > front
      > > > > battery box?
      > > > > My truck taps into pack plus through a 30 amp fuse in the rear
      > battery
      > > box,
      > > > > to supply the DC/DC converter,and all the auxiliary stuff. A power
      > > > > schematic is here <
      > > > > http://www.promotingevs.com/Pictures/E-10%20Power%20Schematic.jpg> I
      > > think
      > > > > I have a better schematic, that I will send later. Keep the questions
      > > > > coming. That is a tricky question about the chargers. I use a Zivan
      > > NG3.
      > > > > Someone else may be able to answer. I say that, because the charger
      > > has too
      > > > > see a pack voltage to execute the charge algorithm.
      > > > >
      > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:10 PM, dwitte82 <dwitte82@...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > **
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > We checked the wiring on our E10 today. I'll admit its a bit dusty
      > > and
      > > > > > rusty in there.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The E10 has 19 batteries hooked in series exactly as shown on
      > Bill's
      > > > > > promotingevs.com website.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Does anyone know if Solectria used batteries with voltages other
      > > than 12V
      > > > > > nominal? Our batteries don't say anything about voltages or
      > > manufacturer.
      > > > > > All of them have a red sticker with a "+" and different number on
      > > them.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I put pictures of the ones that we have at:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > >
      > http://solectriae10.blogspot.com/2012/09/heres-some-pics-of-old-batteries.html
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I still have 2 of the chargers in the E10. Anyone know what would
      > > happen
      > > > > > if we 1) disconnected the charger from the battery then 2) put a
      > > > > voltmeter
      > > > > > on the charger output and then 3) pluged the chargers in. What
      > > voltage
      > > > > > would the chargers produce?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Interesting -- our E10 started out in life with THREE strings of
      > 12
      > > > > > batteries (Hawkers?)
      > > > > > > wired in parallel, 144V. At some point they must have had a
      > > failure and
      > > > > > reworked it into
      > > > > > > two strings of 12 group 24 batteries in parallel, still 144V.
      > I've
      > > > > heard
      > > > > > of E10s with one
      > > > > > > string at a higher voltage. As long as that single string could
      > > handle
      > > > > > the current draw,
      > > > > > > I'd suspect it would be better than the parallel strings.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Just thinking out loud here, I had always figured they had gone
      > > with
      > > > > two
      > > > > > parallel strings
      > > > > > > to keep the current draw from the two motors down on the
      > > batteries, but
      > > > > > since you'd be
      > > > > > > running a higher voltage the current draw would be lower anyway.
      > > I'll
      > > > > > bet it's because
      > > > > > > the controllers in my truck are AMC320s, not AMC325s, and they
      > > couldn't
      > > > > > go to the higher
      > > > > > > voltage - they had to hold the voltage at 144. Gotta go dig up
      > > those
      > > > > > specs, but that's
      > > > > > > starting to make some sense.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Drew, the AMC325 is programmable, so I'll bet they simply tell it
      > > what
      > > > > > to send out to the
      > > > > > > motors. It does all the conversion from the high-voltage source
      > > > > > internally and they could
      > > > > > > cap it at 150V or whatever. Sounds like a really fun project.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > -Tom
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On 9/5/2012 9:48 PM, William Swann wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > In my E-10, 19 batteries feed both controllers. Some trucks
      > have
      > > > > > parallel 144 volt
      > > > > > > > systems. Looking upstream from the controller, if the 2 wires
      > > from 2
      > > > > > Anderson connectors
      > > > > > > > merge into 2 wires, then 1 battery pack feeds both controllers.
      > > If
      > > > > > they remain
      > > > > > > > separated, maybe you have 1 pack feeding one controller, and a
      > > > > > distinct battery pack
      > > > > > > > feeding the other. My controllers are labeled as AMC230.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Thanks, Bill Swann
      > > > > > > > www.watt-tracker.com
      > > > > > > > www.promotingevs.com
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:19 PM, "dwitte82" <dwitte82@
      > > > > > > > <mailto:dwitte82%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Hello Solectria Group!
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > My school has a Solectria E10 that is a 1995 model. It has
      > not
      > > run
      > > > > > for about 10 years.
      > > > > > > > We are going to get this baby up and running with lithium
      > > batteries.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I'm trying to figure out what voltage it is running at in
      > > order to
      > > > > > buy new batteries.
      > > > > > > > We are planning on keeping everyone posted on the Li upgrade.
      > It
      > > > > > should be B.A.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Here is the issue: There are 22 white batteries (15" x 4.5" x
      > > 7")
      > > > > in
      > > > > > the vehicle. They
      > > > > > > > don't hold a charge worth a darn. There are 6 in series under
      > the
      > > > > > hood, and 13 hooked in
      > > > > > > > series under the bed. Three of the batteries under the bed are
      > > not
      > > > > > hooked to anything.
      > > > > > > > Nineteen (19) 12v batteries would be 228 volts, Right?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > BUT... There are two AMC325 controllers. The manual for the
      > > AMC325
      > > > > > says that the max
      > > > > > > > voltage is 119-225 volts. The two (2) ACgtx20 motors have
      > > nameplate
      > > > > > voltage of 150V.
      > > > > > > > Finally the two (2) onboard BC1000u chargers say there is an
      > > output
      > > > > of
      > > > > > 194VDC.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Does anyone know if this AMC325 controller, motor, and
      > charger
      > > > > > set-up would run at 228
      > > > > > > > volts?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Any suggestions on how we should check if the controllers
      > work
      > > with
      > > > > > out buying 12 lead
      > > > > > > > acid batts?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Any help will be much appreciated.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Thanks!
      > > > > > > > > Drew
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > P.S. Anyone know of any solectria cruise nights anywhere?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --
      > > > > > > Thomas Hudson
      > > > > > > http://portev.org/ -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
      > > > > > > http://klanky.com/ -- Animation Projects
      >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --
      > > > > Thanks, Bill S
      > > > > Ph 832-338-3080
      > > > > www.watt-tracker.com
      > > > > www.promotingevs.com
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ------------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Wolf
      > > > *wags his tail*
      > > > www.wolftronix.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Wolf
      > *wags his tail*
      > www.wolftronix.com
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Wolf
      *wags his tail*
      www.wolftronix.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ray Darby
      There are companies on the internet that make voltage converters.....got a special one a while back so I m not sure but it may have been voltageconverters.com
      Message 43 of 43 , Sep 19, 2012
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        There are companies on the internet that make voltage converters.....got a
        special one a while back so I'm not sure but it may have been
        voltageconverters.com - if not, try a google search as I know they're out
        there and can be special-made for almost any voltage......

        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Swann
        Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:41 PM
        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Solectria E10 - The Lazarus Project

        I wish I could find a MPPT that boosts the voltage to 170. Most of the
        solar stuff is not that high of a voltage. Is this on a Force?

        On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 2:34 PM, d. Bouton Baldridge
        <cfrkeepr@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > The panel is only 30v, that is what the MPPT does. Metric Mind used to
        > sell them, but my Force was already equiped with the arrangement, I only
        > upgraded it so that is was more than just show, now I just drive it and
        > carefully monitor the amphour meter to determine how long I must park it
        > in
        > the sun.
        > Bouty
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: William Swann <william.swann2@...>
        > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:06 PM
        > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Solectria E10 - The Lazarus Project
        >
        > It is unusual to find PV with that output voltage. Who sells that? Also,
        > the MPPT operating at that voltage - who sells that? Did you make it?
        >
        > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:57 PM, d. Bouton Baldridge <cfrkeepr@...
        > >wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > yes I have a 223 watt panel on the top. I didn't call it the MPPT
        > > because
        > > nobody knows what that is, it is a device that matches the pack voltage
        > up
        > > to 170v. Solectria actually offered the option in '92".
        > > Bouty
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: William Swann <william.swann2@...>
        > > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com" <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 9:51 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Solectria E10 - The Lazarus Project
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Could you expand on the purpose of the solar controller. Are you using a
        > > couple of PV panels to make the voltage, with a charge controller to
        > limit
        > > it?
        > >
        > > Thanks, Bill Swann
        > > http://www.watt-tracker.com/
        > > http://www.promotingevs.com/
        > >
        > >
        > > On Sep 18, 2012, at 8:36 PM, "d. Bouton Baldridge" <mailto:
        > > cfrkeepr%40yahoo.com> wrote:
        > >
        > > > My '92' is a 144v system, but I have 48 lithium cells which will
        > > > charge
        > > to about 180v at that voltage the controller balks, but if the cells
        > settle
        > > a little just below 180v the system works fine. I have been running this
        > > way for going on 4 years. the normal voltage is 160 and for the last 2
        > > years using a solar controller which only goes to 170v there are no
        > issues
        > > at all, I have not plugged into the grid in 30 months this way. there
        > > really is no need to over charge beyond 3.5v per cell because it will
        > > settle back very shortly and that anything higher is kind of wasted and
        > > a
        > > plus, because starting at the settle voltage allows regen without the
        > > squeel.
        > > > FWIW
        > > > Bouty
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: jacambri <mailto:jacambri%40iupui.edu>
        > > > To: mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:07 PM
        > > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Solectria E10 - The Lazarus Project
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > All,
        > > >
        > > > So I have a urgent question because I am trying to pick out batteries
        > > today. On the controller nameplate the nominal voltage is 144, but on
        > > the
        > > Solectria spec sheet it says nominal for a AMC 325 is 156-180V. The max
        > > current on the nameplate is 280 for the motor and 287 for the batteries.
        > On
        > > the spec sheet the max current for both motor and batteries is 240. So
        > > which one do I go off of? Also what is the max regen current the
        > controller
        > > can handle?
        > > >
        > > > Thanks for the help,
        > > >
        > > > Jason
        > > >
        > > > --- In mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@... wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hello Drew
        > > > >
        > > > > You could try what Wolf outlined as it is the first and easiest path
        > > to
        > > > > take.
        > > > >
        > > > > I have found if they have been a zero volts for an extended amount
        > > > > of
        > > time
        > > > > they will not accept any current at normal charging voltages.
        > > Regardless
        > > > > of how long you try to charge them.
        > > > >
        > > > > It takes a more radical approach and if your not having any luck it
        > > > > leaves no other options. Also forget about the battery savers that
        > > claim to
        > > > > remove sulfate and recover lead batteries. At least for AGMs after
        > all
        > > kinds of
        > > > > testing with 5 different ones I found they do nothing. One of them
        > > cost 300
        > > > > dollars and has quite a few followers. Maybe they work for flooded
        > > > > batteries but without going into great detail as Wolf points out
        > > batteries will
        > > > > gain capacity from just cycling. One has to make certain what your
        > > seeing is
        > > > > actually an improvement repeatable with the same conditions. I took
        > 26
        > > > > modules out of an 1998 S-10 EV that had been at zero volts for years
        > > and used
        > > > > them as a test. I repeated this with two additional trucks. I found
        > no
        > > > > gains that could not be matched with just charging and cycling. That
        > > is once
        > > > > they would accept any voltage.
        > > > >
        > > > > If not accepting voltage.
        > > > >
        > > > > I used a DC regulated power supply set at 20 volts with 1/2 amp of
        > > current.
        > > > > It took about a day but modules that would not accept any current
        > > started
        > > > > to accept a charge. Sometimes they would start accepting current as
        > > soon as
        > > > > you hit 18 volts but back down to 14 volts and current went to zero.
        > > > >
        > > > > Good luck and don't get your hopes up too high. They might do fairly
        > > well
        > > > > if used in other applications but EVs are a heavy load for even
        > > > > brand
        > > new
        > > > > batteries of any chemistry.
        > > > >
        > > > > Don Blazer
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > In a message dated 9/7/2012 8:52:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        > > > > wolf@... writes:
        > > > >
        > > > > 1. Recover each individual battery with a 13.8V @ 2 Amp charge for
        > > > > 24
        > > > > hours.
        > > > >
        > > > > Let the battery sit for an hour, then measure the open circuit
        > > voltage, it
        > > > > should be around 13 volts. Place a 1 ohm 500 Watt load on the
        > > > > battery
        > > for
        > > > > 30 seconds, if the battery voltage stays above 12 volts, it is ready
        > > to
        > > > > use.
        > > > >
        > > > > For the batteries that did not pass place back on the 13.8V @ 2 Amp
        > > charge
        > > > > for another 24 hours. Then try again.
        > > > >
        > > > > For the batteries that passed the first test, you need to cycle them
        > a
        > > few
        > > > > times to rebuild and desulfate the plates, they will only have about
        > a
        > > 10
        > > > > amp-hour capacity at first, each cycle will recover more capacity,
        > > until
        > > > > they plateau around 50-60 amp-hours.
        > > > >
        > > > > Around 12 years ago (can't believe it has been that long), there was
        > a
        > > > > computer controlled battery tester in the EV lab, (it was in the
        > > > > cage
        > > with
        > > > > all the batteries) where you could write a script and have it charge
        > > and
        > > > > discharge the battery. It would give you a printout of the capacity,
        > > > > internal resistance, and the such.
        > > > >
        > > > > It it is still around use it, and write a script (there should be
        > many
        > > > > scripts on it all ready that you can modify) that will discharge at
        > 20
        > > amps
        > > > > to 10 volts, charge at 10 amps to 15 volts. Record last amp-hour
        > > capacity,
        > > > > and keep cycling till there is only about a 1 amp-hour difference
        > > between
        > > > > cycles. Then label that battery with its capacity.
        > > > >
        > > > > 2. I doubt it the bulk caps are only rated to 250 Volts, it would
        > have
        > > an
        > > > > AMC 230 controller rated to 300 Volts.
        > > > >
        > > > > 3. 130 is the min voltage cut out, so your supply should be able to
        > > power
        > > > > it on.
        > > > >
        > > > > I would recommend that you unplug the power steering and vacuum
        > pumps,
        > > and
        > > > > turn off the radio and all lights.
        > > > >
        > > > > You will need an RS485 to RS232 adapter to hook a laptop up to the
        > > > > controller and the AMC program to read/write settings.
        > > > >
        > > > > Then hook up your supply and turn the key and see what happens.
        > > > > On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Drew Witte <dwitte82@...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > **
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This is sweet that we found someone who has actually driven our
        > E10.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > A few questions:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 1) Don and Wolf, How did you recharge the Panasonic OEM batteries
        > > that
        > > > > had
        > > > > > been sitting around for years with no voltage on them? 12 Volt
        > > trickle
        > > > > > charge? What Amperage? We are going to try to revive the batteries
        > to
        > > > > > have something to test with until we get our Li Batteries.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 2) Wolf, do you know if our AMC325 was ever hooked up to the 228
        > > > > > Volt battery pack?
        > > > > > The User's Manual I have to the AMC325 says the Max Voltage Range
        > is
        > > > > > 119-225 V.
        > > > > > Absolute Maximal Battery Voltage (cut off) is 230-242 V
        > > > > > The 228 Volts seem like its very close to the high voltage
        > > recommended
        > > > > for
        > > > > > the AMC325. When the batteries are charged, the voltage would be
        > over
        > > > > > these values.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 3) If we hooked up a 130VDC 5 Amp power supply to the battery
        > > terminals
        > > > > on
        > > > > > the AMC325, would we be able to hook up a computer and look at the
        > > > > current
        > > > > > parameters loaded onto the controller? What is the lowest battery
        > > > > voltage
        > > > > > that we need to look at the programming parameters?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > > Drew
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Thanks, Bill S
        > Ph 832-338-3080
        > www.watt-tracker.com
        > www.promotingevs.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Thanks, Bill S
        Ph 832-338-3080
        www.watt-tracker.com
        www.promotingevs.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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