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RE: [force_ev] Batteries

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  • David Roden (Akron OH USA)
    ... The very first Forces were fitted with Sears Diehard marine batteries. No kidding. They were made by Johnson Controls. Those poor batteries were in over
    Message 1 of 30 , May 28, 2003
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      > I don't think Trojan are what they use to be.

      The very first Forces were fitted with Sears Diehard marine batteries. No
      kidding. They were made by Johnson Controls. Those poor batteries were in
      over their heads. Even with the feeble controllers in those cars (150 amp
      max, IIRC) they had lifetimes about as long as fruit flies on a summer
      afternoon. They suffered especially in very hot climates; average life was
      about 6-9 months in Phoenix.

      Solectria tried many different batteries before finally settling on the ones most
      recently used: East Penn Deka Dominators, gel batteries based on a design
      licensed from Sonnenschein. The quality and consistency on these batteries
      is above average. They aren't cheap (around $130 each), but they will last
      you 3-4 years with fairly careful use. One reason is that they are designed
      so that it's harder to over-discharge them (very acid-starved).

      If you convert to gel batteries, you'll have to send your charger to Solectria to
      be reprogrammed. There are a few old chargers that might have to be
      replaced -- does yours have a model number or anything?

      You will have more range with flooded batteries than with gel. But that's
      because of the gel's safety margin I mentioned above. The catch is, if you
      actually ^use^ the extra range, you'll lose some of the cycle life. In these
      cars performance is limited by the relatively low power available from the
      controller, not by the batteries. You won't see a significant difference in
      acceleration or top speed between gel and flooded batteries.

      If you have the discipline to hold discharges to between 50 and 80 percent of
      capacity, flooded marine batteries will cost you less per mile than gels. You
      also must be willing to open up the front battery box about once a month or
      so to water them. (Unplug and dismount controller; dismount aircon
      compressor if fitted and lay on fender; undo all the screws, and you're there.
      Awkward, but not awful.)

      I don't know about a decline in quality in Trojans. It's possible. Most EV
      folks used to say 6-7 years ago that Trojan 27TMH were about the longest-
      lived flooded marine batteries. But they may have changed since then.
      Trojans also tend to be somewhat pricey; I was quoted $86 each for them a
      few years back, IIRC. Someone may know where to find them at a lower
      price if you really want them.

      US Battery 27TMX will probably be significantly cheaper than Trojan 27TMH
      (and USBMC will sell directly to EV hobbyists). They're also more flexible
      about supplying whatever terminal type you want (I prefer L terminals). I'd
      guess around $55-65 each (anybody bought any recently?) Let me know if
      you want the name of a contact at USBMC to call about direct ordering.

      David
      Akron OH USA
    • laminar1314
      Batteries are expensive. Just to keep lithium in perspective, my Rav-4 uses 24 NiMH batteries. I checked with Toyota and they cost $1100.00 dollars each. They
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 27, 2005
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        Batteries are expensive. Just to keep lithium in perspective, my Rav-4 uses 24 NiMH
        batteries. I checked with Toyota and they cost $1100.00 dollars each. They are Panasonic and
        are rated at 100Ah at 12volts. I thought about putting these in my Force, but there are all
        kinds of charging and cooling issues. Lithium offers the advantage of light weight, compact
        size, no cooling hassels, and very slow auto-discharge rates.

        I've taken a close look at Everspring, Valence and others. I use lithium in my remote control
        airplanes and so have some experience with charging and other concerns. I also have tested
        wet cell NiCad. I just havn't been forced to choose a replacement pack yet, but this day is fast
        approaching. Ouch.

        My dream pack would be about 20% higher voltage than the current lead acid pack (I think
        the car is underpowered for freeway commuting that I do daily), and would be about 150Ah.
        I'd like to see this at about half the weight of the smaller lead acid pack. I approached
        Solectria with this idea and they were less than encouraging.

        I still think that it's only a matter of time. Now if that doesn't wet your appetite, I don't know
        what would.

        Ken
      • Dave C.
        I need a set of batteries. Can someone recommend a good source? Also, what is the recommended type? What is the general concensus on the best brand (without
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 17, 2006
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          I need a set of batteries. Can someone recommend a good source?
          Also, what is the recommended type? What is the general concensus on
          the best brand (without getting carried away on price)?

          Dave C.
          Las Vegas, NV
        • Dave C.
          Wow, lots of information to digest. I really have to use gell cells. My early model Force (1991) has 4 batteries stacked on top of each other in pairs in
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 17, 2006
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            Wow, lots of information to digest.

            I really have to use gell cells. My early model Force (1991) has 4
            batteries stacked on top of each other in pairs in front. So to
            water the bottom ones requires lifting out batteries on top. Not
            very practical.

            I will try to find model and serial numbers for all the components.
            I am also taking pictures as my "project" progresses. Stay tuned.
            And thanks very much for the input!

            Dave


            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "David Roden (Akron OH USA)"
            <roden@...> wrote:
            >
            > > I don't think Trojan are what they use to be.
            >
            > The very first Forces were fitted with Sears Diehard marine
            batteries. No
            > kidding. They were made by Johnson Controls. Those poor
            batteries were in
            > over their heads. Even with the feeble controllers in those cars
            (150 amp
            > max, IIRC) they had lifetimes about as long as fruit flies on a
            summer
            > afternoon. They suffered especially in very hot climates; average
            life was
            > about 6-9 months in Phoenix.
            >
            > Solectria tried many different batteries before finally settling
            on the ones most
            > recently used: East Penn Deka Dominators, gel batteries based on a
            design
            > licensed from Sonnenschein. The quality and consistency on these
            batteries
            > is above average. They aren't cheap (around $130 each), but they
            will last
            > you 3-4 years with fairly careful use. One reason is that they
            are designed
            > so that it's harder to over-discharge them (very acid-starved).
            >
            > If you convert to gel batteries, you'll have to send your charger
            to Solectria to
            > be reprogrammed. There are a few old chargers that might have to
            be
            > replaced -- does yours have a model number or anything?
            >
            > You will have more range with flooded batteries than with gel.
            But that's
            > because of the gel's safety margin I mentioned above. The catch
            is, if you
            > actually ^use^ the extra range, you'll lose some of the cycle
            life. In these
            > cars performance is limited by the relatively low power available
            from the
            > controller, not by the batteries. You won't see a significant
            difference in
            > acceleration or top speed between gel and flooded batteries.
            >
            > If you have the discipline to hold discharges to between 50 and 80
            percent of
            > capacity, flooded marine batteries will cost you less per mile
            than gels. You
            > also must be willing to open up the front battery box about once a
            month or
            > so to water them. (Unplug and dismount controller; dismount
            aircon
            > compressor if fitted and lay on fender; undo all the screws, and
            you're there.
            > Awkward, but not awful.)
            >
            > I don't know about a decline in quality in Trojans. It's
            possible. Most EV
            > folks used to say 6-7 years ago that Trojan 27TMH were about the
            longest-
            > lived flooded marine batteries. But they may have changed since
            then.
            > Trojans also tend to be somewhat pricey; I was quoted $86 each for
            them a
            > few years back, IIRC. Someone may know where to find them at a
            lower
            > price if you really want them.
            >
            > US Battery 27TMX will probably be significantly cheaper than
            Trojan 27TMH
            > (and USBMC will sell directly to EV hobbyists). They're also more
            flexible
            > about supplying whatever terminal type you want (I prefer L
            terminals). I'd
            > guess around $55-65 each (anybody bought any recently?) Let me
            know if
            > you want the name of a contact at USBMC to call about direct
            ordering.
            >
            > David
            > Akron OH USA
            >
          • D. Bouton Baldridge
            I originally put Trojans in my 92 Force in 2004, they didn t last two years, in fact two needed to be replaced in six months.I got 55 Ah once when they were
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 18, 2006
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              I originally put Trojans in my '92' Force in 2004, they didn't last two
              years, in fact two needed to be replaced in six months.I got 55 Ah once
              when they were new, but never again.The watering was a nuisance,and
              there is no way not to have acid spill.I got my gels,from Affordable
              Solar http://www.affordable-solar.com/deka.mk.batteries.htm, they were
              $118 when I got them in early 2006 they are $135 now. They are much
              more forgiving and I have found that except for the cold perform better
              than the floodeds, infact once when my wife took the car it came back
              with 66Ah, (they never look at the meter)I can't speak to to
              longevity,but the specks define a much more tollerant operating
              perameters such as high temps.
              Bouty
              Wilmington,NC
            • evforever39
              After about 10k miles, the MK 8G68 (86 ah sealed) batteries on my 93 Force have about half the range they did when new and it s time to do something about it.
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 9 8:56 AM
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                After about 10k miles, the MK 8G68 (86 ah sealed) batteries on my '93 Force have about half the range they did when new and it's time to do something about it. My questions are:

                1. Do people think it would be worth testing each battery first? The manual says to check the batteries by taking them down to where the car will not maintain 30 mph on the level. Then, to stop and check each battery voltage with lights, fan, and heater going. Any battery having < 10 v should be replaced. But I am wondering about checking the voltage of an individual battery while the batteries are all hooked together. Wouldn't putting the voltmeter onto the terminals of an individual battery still just give you the sum of the volts among all the batteries? Is there another method I should use?

                2. I haven't bought batteries in years. Can anybody point me to the best source nowadays and any new information about batteries? Like everybody else, I'm interested in the most range for the least price. I know there's a lot of talk about new kinds of batteries but it looks like lead-acid is still the best buy, especially when you figure in the new charging system that would be needed to go with other battery types.

                Cheers.
              • Will Beckett (PCS)
                After about 10k miles, the MK 8G68 (86 ah sealed) batteries on my 93 Force have about half the range they did when new and it s time to do something about it.
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 30 8:54 AM
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                  After about 10k miles, the MK 8G68 (86 ah sealed) batteries on my '93 Force
                  have about half the range they did when new and it's time to do something
                  about it. My questions are:

                  I am assuming that you tend to do longer trips and run up about 30 amp/hours
                  before each charge. I am also assuming you don't use battery equalizers.

                  1. Do people think it would be worth testing each battery first? The manual
                  says to check the batteries by taking them down to where the car will not
                  maintain 30 mph on the level. Then, to stop and check each battery voltage
                  with lights, fan, and heater going. Any battery having < 10 v should be
                  replaced. But I am wondering about checking the voltage of an individual
                  battery while the batteries are all hooked together. Wouldn't putting the
                  voltmeter onto the terminals of an individual battery still just give you
                  the sum of the volts among all the batteries? Is there another method I
                  should use?

                  This method works fine for field testing. It is a bit hard to check the
                  front pack if you don't have it pre-wired. Over time the pack will try to
                  equalize itself a bit if there is a large discrepancy but if you check it
                  quickly you will see any problems easily. Put your hand on each battery
                  because the bad ones will be warmer (sometimes hot).

                  2. I haven't bought batteries in years. Can anybody point me to the best
                  source nowadays and any new information about batteries? Like everybody
                  else, I'm interested in the most range for the least price. I know there's a
                  lot of talk about new kinds of batteries but it looks like lead-acid is
                  still the best buy, especially when you figure in the new charging system
                  that would be needed to go with other battery types.

                  This depends where you are in the country. In the SF Bay Area most of us go
                  to Jim Ramos. Deka is best but they come under other lables (Penn, GelTek).



                  -Will



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ldr214
                  You can check the voltage between any 2 points in the pack wiring with a multimeter. One battery is going to be just that battery. But always be safe while
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 1, 2009
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                    You can check the voltage between any 2 points in the pack wiring with a multimeter. One battery is going to be just that battery. But always be safe while working with the pack.

                    Your traction pack is pretty much like a physicial chain and is no stronger than the weakest links. So if you have a couple of weak batteries the pack will "sag" rapidly when you near the limits of the weak ones. No mater how strong the strong ones are the weak ones will prevail.

                    But if you have been deep cycling the Pba pack for 10k miles chances are it is not just a few that are at 50% capacity. But it is still worth doing the test. You can apply the information to further your knowledge. Someone else might need a used battery with your good ones capacity to put in a older pack. Check around with other EAA members.


                    Mike
                    97 Force

                    --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "evforever39" <mjennings@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > After about 10k miles, the MK 8G68 (86 ah sealed) batteries on my '93 Force have about half the range they did when new and it's time to do something about it. My questions are:
                    >
                    > 1. Do people think it would be worth testing each battery first? The manual says to check the batteries by taking them down to where the car will not maintain 30 mph on the level. Then, to stop and check each battery voltage with lights, fan, and heater going. Any battery having < 10 v should be replaced. But I am wondering about checking the voltage of an individual battery while the batteries are all hooked together. Wouldn't putting the voltmeter onto the terminals of an individual battery still just give you the sum of the volts among all the batteries? Is there another method I should use?
                    >
                    > 2. I haven't bought batteries in years. Can anybody point me to the best source nowadays and any new information about batteries? Like everybody else, I'm interested in the most range for the least price. I know there's a lot of talk about new kinds of batteries but it looks like lead-acid is still the best buy, especially when you figure in the new charging system that would be needed to go with other battery types.
                    >
                    > Cheers.
                    >
                  • Bill Swann
                    Does anyone know why Solectria recommends the 8G27 s. Is there a compelling reason to stick with these? Thanks
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 1, 2009
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                      Does anyone know why Solectria recommends the 8G27's. Is there a compelling reason to stick with these?
                      Thanks
                    • Ken Olum
                      From: Bill Swann Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 05:16:06 -0000 Does anyone know why Solectria recommends the 8G27 s. People are routinely
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 2, 2009
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                        From: "Bill Swann" <dbswann4@...>
                        Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 05:16:06 -0000

                        Does anyone know why Solectria recommends the 8G27's.

                        People are routinely getting 25-30K mi. from a pack of 8G27's without
                        any battery balancing system. This is more than 600 cycles to quite
                        deep discharge. They work equally well with many more, shallower
                        discharges. I have probably made more than 2500 trips on this pack.

                        Ken
                      • gjc0@aol.com
                        Colleagues: I am using 8G27s also.? I got 32K miles out of the last set although my range went down to 15 miles until I finally got new ones.? Although they
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 2, 2009
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                          Colleagues:

                          I am using 8G27s also.? I got 32K miles out of the last set although my range went down to 15 miles until I finally got new ones.? Although they are more expensive, I like the idea of a sealed gel battery riding around in the passenger compartment with me instead of an outgassing flooded wet cell.

                          Gary Carlson



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Ken Olum <kdo@...>
                          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sat, 2 May 2009 5:59 am
                          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries








                          From: "Bill Swann" <dbswann4@...>
                          Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 05:16:06 -0000

                          Does anyone know why Solectria recommends the 8G27's.

                          People are routinely getting 25-30K mi. from a pack of 8G27's without
                          any battery balancing system. This is more than 600 cycles to quite
                          deep discharge. They work equally well with many more, shallower
                          discharges. I have probably made more than 2500 trips on this pack.

                          Ken







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Wolf
                          When cheking the batteries on an E-10, you want to isolate each series string from each other (pull the big black main battery disconnect). If you don t do
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 2, 2009
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                            When cheking the batteries on an E-10, you want to isolate each series
                            string from each other (pull the big black main battery disconnect).

                            If you don't do this and you have all the series stings in parallel, and
                            you have a battery that is an open ciruit, it will apear as if it has a
                            charge on it.

                            Also, I would not ever discharge a pack down to limphome mode to test them.

                            I would take a freshly charged battery pack and then isolate the series
                            strings, then take a 1C battery load tester (the big cart kind with wheels
                            on it), and connect it to one battery for 5 mins, then measure the voltage
                            it dropped down too. Then test the next battery in the stack, noting what
                            voltage it was at after 5 mins.

                            If any battery falls down to 10 volts before 5 mins are up, that battery
                            is bad and needs to be replaced.

                            Then after testing all the batteries look at the data they should all be
                            with in +/- 0.2 volt of each other. If any are way less, those batteries
                            are bad and need to be replaced.

                            If they are all realy close, but performance is still realy bad, then its
                            time to replace the whole pack. :/

                            Wolf
                            *wags his tail*
                            www.wolftronix.com

                            > You can check the voltage between any 2 points in the pack wiring with a
                            > multimeter. One battery is going to be just that battery. But always be
                            > safe while working with the pack.
                            >
                            > Your traction pack is pretty much like a physicial chain and is no
                            > stronger than the weakest links. So if you have a couple of weak batteries
                            > the pack will "sag" rapidly when you near the limits of the weak ones. No
                            > mater how strong the strong ones are the weak ones will prevail.
                            >
                            > But if you have been deep cycling the Pba pack for 10k miles chances are
                            > it is not just a few that are at 50% capacity. But it is still worth doing
                            > the test. You can apply the information to further your knowledge. Someone
                            > else might need a used battery with your good ones capacity to put in a
                            > older pack. Check around with other EAA members.
                            >
                            >
                            > Mike
                            > 97 Force
                            >
                            > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "evforever39" <mjennings@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> After about 10k miles, the MK 8G68 (86 ah sealed) batteries on my '93
                            >> Force have about half the range they did when new and it's time to do
                            >> something about it. My questions are:
                            >>
                            >> 1. Do people think it would be worth testing each battery first? The
                            >> manual says to check the batteries by taking them down to where the car
                            >> will not maintain 30 mph on the level. Then, to stop and check each
                            >> battery voltage with lights, fan, and heater going. Any battery having <
                            >> 10 v should be replaced. But I am wondering about checking the voltage
                            >> of an individual battery while the batteries are all hooked together.
                            >> Wouldn't putting the voltmeter onto the terminals of an individual
                            >> battery still just give you the sum of the volts among all the
                            >> batteries? Is there another method I should use?
                            >>
                            >> 2. I haven't bought batteries in years. Can anybody point me to the best
                            >> source nowadays and any new information about batteries? Like everybody
                            >> else, I'm interested in the most range for the least price. I know
                            >> there's a lot of talk about new kinds of batteries but it looks like
                            >> lead-acid is still the best buy, especially when you figure in the new
                            >> charging system that would be needed to go with other battery types.
                            >>
                            >> Cheers.
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • evforever39
                            Thanks to everybody for your advice on the batteries. I checked each battery and sure enough found one that was putting out less than 10v. I replaced it last
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 5, 2009
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                              Thanks to everybody for your advice on the batteries. I checked each battery and sure enough found one that was putting out less than 10v. I replaced it last weekend and presto, problem solved and range restored! Very cool.

                              BTW, I got the best deal on the MK 8G68 from ecovantageenergy.com.

                              Cheers,
                              Michael

                              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "evforever39" <mjennings@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > After about 10k miles, the MK 8G68 (86 ah sealed) batteries on my '93 Force have about half the range they did when new and it's time to do something about it. My questions are:
                              >
                              > 1. Do people think it would be worth testing each battery first? The manual says to check the batteries by taking them down to where the car will not maintain 30 mph on the level. Then, to stop and check each battery voltage with lights, fan, and heater going. Any battery having < 10 v should be replaced. But I am wondering about checking the voltage of an individual battery while the batteries are all hooked together. Wouldn't putting the voltmeter onto the terminals of an individual battery still just give you the sum of the volts among all the batteries? Is there another method I should use?
                              >
                              > 2. I haven't bought batteries in years. Can anybody point me to the best source nowadays and any new information about batteries? Like everybody else, I'm interested in the most range for the least price. I know there's a lot of talk about new kinds of batteries but it looks like lead-acid is still the best buy, especially when you figure in the new charging system that would be needed to go with other battery types.
                              >
                              > Cheers.
                              >
                            • umarc@hippogryph.com
                              Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my 1992 Force. I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 19, 2011
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                                Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                1992 Force.

                                I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                                Massachusetts that sells them. The last set I bought in 2002 from a place
                                in Lowell, but they are out of business now.


                                Rob
                              • mike young
                                most napa auto parts stores deal in deka batteries mike young ... From: umarc@hippogryph.com To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 20, 2011
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                                  most napa auto parts stores deal in deka batteries mike young
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: umarc@...
                                  To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:13 PM
                                  Subject: [solectria_ev] Batteries




                                  Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                  1992 Force.

                                  I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                                  Massachusetts that sells them. The last set I bought in 2002 from a place
                                  in Lowell, but they are out of business now.

                                  Rob




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                  You have gotten nearly ten years on one set of batteries? That s amazing. I have a 92 also since 04 and never got better than 30 months on a set of Pb, my
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 20, 2011
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                                    You have gotten nearly ten years on one set of batteries? That's amazing. I have a '92' also since '04' and never got better than 30 months on a set of Pb, my Lithiums are going into their third year and seem to be going strong. I really like not carrying arround that extra 600 lbs, but if you got ten years go for it.
                                    Bouty

                                    From: "umarc@..." <umarc@...>
                                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:13 PM
                                    Subject: [solectria_ev] Batteries


                                     

                                    Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                    1992 Force.

                                    I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                                    Massachusetts that sells them. The last set I bought in 2002 from a place
                                    in Lowell, but they are out of business now.

                                    Rob



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • umarc@hippogryph.com
                                    No, these batteries have been useless for almost a year now, but I couldn t spare the money for a new set until now. Rob ... [Non-text portions of this message
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 20, 2011
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                                      No, these batteries have been useless for almost a year now, but I
                                      couldn't spare the money for a new set until now.


                                      Rob

                                      On Sat, 20 Aug 2011, d. Bouton Baldridge wrote:

                                      > You have gotten nearly ten years on one set of batteries? That's amazing. I have a '92' also since '04' and never got better than 30 months on a set of Pb, my Lithiums are going into their third year and seem to be going strong. I really like not carrying arround that extra 600 lbs, but if you got ten years go for it.
                                      > Bouty
                                      >
                                      > From: "umarc@..." <umarc@...>
                                      > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:13 PM
                                      > Subject: [solectria_ev] Batteries
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      > Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                      > 1992 Force.
                                      >
                                      > I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                                      > Massachusetts that sells them. The last set I bought in 2002 from a place
                                      > in Lowell, but they are out of business now.
                                      >
                                      > Rob
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ray Darby
                                      Bouty - how many miles & Amp-hrs did you go, on average, with your Pb batteries? Also, what is the going rate for Lithium batteries these days? ... From: d.
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 20, 2011
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                                        Bouty - how many miles & Amp-hrs did you go, on average, with your Pb batteries?

                                        Also, what is the going rate for Lithium batteries these days?

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: d. Bouton Baldridge
                                        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 5:49 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries



                                        You have gotten nearly ten years on one set of batteries? That's amazing. I have a '92' also since '04' and never got better than 30 months on a set of Pb, my Lithiums are going into their third year and seem to be going strong. I really like not carrying arround that extra 600 lbs, but if you got ten years go for it.
                                        Bouty

                                        From: "umarc@..." <umarc@...>
                                        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:13 PM
                                        Subject: [solectria_ev] Batteries



                                        Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                        1992 Force.

                                        I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                                        Massachusetts that sells them. The last set I bought in 2002 from a place
                                        in Lowell, but they are out of business now.

                                        Rob

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • d. Bouton Baldridge
                                        Hi Ray, My first pack were flooded as per the owner s mn l they barely lasted 18 months, so I went for AGMs  Deka or MD since AGMs were the choice of the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 20, 2011
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                                          Hi Ray, My first pack were flooded as per the owner's mn'l they barely lasted 18 months, so I went for AGMs  Deka or MD since AGMs were the choice of the Ranger EV but they only gave the 30+ mile range for about 19 months and the range seemed to be only 12-15 miles for the next 17 months being worse in the winter. The lithium do not seem to be degrading much at all. While they do slow down with temps below 60 degrees, (lower current supplied) they can be warmed to give satisfactory perfomace. I use a waterbed heater. I don't know how long they are going to last the claim is up to 1500- 2000 cycles or five to seven years under my driving conditions. Since I lost 600 lbs and lithium gives three times the capacity of lead and I had limited funds three years ago, I opted to replace my 90Ah AGMs with 40 Ah TS40AH cells (48) to up the pack voltage from 144v to 160v. This has given me a  pretty reliable 30 mile range based on AH usage although I rarely go
                                          over 20AH per day or about 1.2 AH/mile. I have a goal to keep the SOC above 50% and preferably higher to see how long these cells will last. That is why I am so amazed at the 9 or so years that Rob got from his Gels. Anyway lithiums have been hovering about $1.20-1.30 per AH with shipping included. So I spent just a little more for the lithiums than a good quality Pb like Deka, but have been very happy with the result. As I said the 40 AH cell is comparable to 90 AH Pb in useful capacity and weigh loss; obviously if you want greater range you can buy more amphours. Hope this helps.
                                          Bouty    

                                          From: Ray Darby <raydarby@...>
                                          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:30 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries


                                           
                                          Bouty - how many miles & Amp-hrs did you go, on average, with your Pb batteries?

                                          Also, what is the going rate for Lithium batteries these days?

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: d. Bouton Baldridge
                                          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 5:49 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries

                                          You have gotten nearly ten years on one set of batteries? That's amazing. I have a '92' also since '04' and never got better than 30 months on a set of Pb, my Lithiums are going into their third year and seem to be going strong. I really like not carrying arround that extra 600 lbs, but if you got ten years go for it.
                                          Bouty

                                          From: "umarc@..." <umarc@...>
                                          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:13 PM
                                          Subject: [solectria_ev] Batteries

                                          Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                          1992 Force.

                                          I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                                          Massachusetts that sells them. The last set I bought in 2002 from a place
                                          in Lowell, but they are out of business now.

                                          Rob

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Ken Olum
                                          From: umarc@hippogryph.com Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my 1992 Force.
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
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                                            From: umarc@...
                                            Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:13:32 -0400 (EDT)

                                            Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                            1992 Force.

                                            The traditional best supplier is Sheldon Battery in Houston. However,
                                            when I called them last year, they told me that they could not have
                                            the batteries drop-shipped. The quote I got for shipping 13 batteries
                                            from Houston to the Boston area was $400, which made this
                                            uneconomical. So I went instead with mrsolar.com in Maryland. Their
                                            price was slightly higher, but for some reason (different brand names
                                            for the same battery, perhaps), they were able to have them
                                            drop-shipped.

                                            Ken
                                          • N/A
                                            ken look into battery plus in your area .. just make sure u get recent date code batteries ... From: Ken Olum Sent: Monday,
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                                              ken look into battery plus in your area .. just make sure u get recent date code batteries

                                              ----------------------------------------
                                              From: "Ken Olum" <kdo@...>
                                              Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:39 AM
                                              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries



                                              From: umarc@...
                                              Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:13:32 -0400 (EDT)

                                              Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                              1992 Force.

                                              The traditional best supplier is Sheldon Battery in Houston. However,
                                              when I called them last year, they told me that they could not have
                                              the batteries drop-shipped. The quote I got for shipping 13 batteries
                                              from Houston to the Boston area was $400, which made this
                                              uneconomical. So I went instead with mrsolar.com in Maryland. Their
                                              price was slightly higher, but for some reason (different brand names
                                              for the same battery, perhaps), they were able to have them
                                              drop-shipped.

                                              Ken



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Jay Grossman
                                              I bought a set from these folks last November.   Cost me about $2,900 for a set of 13  KEN BEAL Phone : 410-768-6200 Email : beal190@aol.com BEAL INDUSTRIAL
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                                                I bought a set from these folks last November.
                                                 
                                                Cost me about $2,900 for a set of 13 

                                                KEN BEAL
                                                Phone : 410-768-6200
                                                Email : beal190@...

                                                BEAL INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTS, INC.
                                                7513-E CONNELLEYDRIVE
                                                HANOVER, MD 21076
                                                 
                                                I live in Virginia and Hanover Md is only about 1.5 hours away therefore no shipping just the rental cost of a van. Other quotes were higher. They did not require that I return the cores.  
                                                 
                                                It looked like these folks service equipment around BWI Airport and deal in volume.
                                                 
                                                Got their information from the East Penn website locate an agent.
                                                 
                                                Jay h Grossman

                                                From: Ken Olum <kdo@...>
                                                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, September 5, 2011 10:39 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries


                                                 
                                                From: umarc@...
                                                Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:13:32 -0400 (EDT)

                                                Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                                1992 Force.

                                                The traditional best supplier is Sheldon Battery in Houston. However,
                                                when I called them last year, they told me that they could not have
                                                the batteries drop-shipped. The quote I got for shipping 13 batteries
                                                from Houston to the Boston area was $400, which made this
                                                uneconomical. So I went instead with mrsolar.com in Maryland. Their
                                                price was slightly higher, but for some reason (different brand names
                                                for the same battery, perhaps), they were able to have them
                                                drop-shipped.

                                                Ken



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Ken Olum
                                                From: N/A Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:02:35 -0500 ken look into battery plus in your area .. just make sure u get recent date code batteries
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                                                  From: "N/A" <ev@...>
                                                  Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:02:35 -0500

                                                  ken look into battery plus in your area .. just make sure u get
                                                  recent date code batteries

                                                  If you mean Batteries Plus (batteriesplus.com), they do not seem to
                                                  carry Deka batteries. On their web site battery finder, I said Sealed
                                                  Lead Acid and neither Deka nor anything that I recognized as a
                                                  Deka/EastPenn label was there.

                                                  Ken
                                                • N/A
                                                  THEY HAVE THEM UDER THE M*** NAME BOUGHT SOME IN 2009.. I WOULD CALL THEM AND ASK WHAT BRAND 8G27 BATTERIES THEY CARRY ... From: Ken Olum
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                    THEY HAVE THEM UDER THE M*** NAME BOUGHT SOME IN 2009.. I WOULD CALL THEM AND ASK WHAT BRAND 8G27 BATTERIES THEY CARRY

                                                    ----------------------------------------
                                                    From: "Ken Olum" <kdo@...>
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 9:56 AM
                                                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries



                                                    From: "N/A" <ev@...>
                                                    Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:02:35 -0500

                                                    ken look into battery plus in your area .. just make sure u get
                                                    recent date code batteries

                                                    If you mean Batteries Plus (batteriesplus.com), they do not seem to
                                                    carry Deka batteries. On their web site battery finder, I said Sealed
                                                    Lead Acid and neither Deka nor anything that I recognized as a
                                                    Deka/EastPenn label was there.

                                                    Ken



                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • umarc@hippogryph.com
                                                    I can t find any SLA Group 27 batteries on the Batteries Plus Web site today. Elsewhere, I m finding them available under brands such as Universal Battery and
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                      I can't find any SLA Group 27 batteries on the Batteries Plus Web site
                                                      today.

                                                      Elsewhere, I'm finding them available under brands such as Universal
                                                      Battery and Power Patrol. Are these cheap knock-offs of the Deka/East
                                                      Penns, or are they substantially the same?

                                                      I've used UB batteries in UPS's at work, and have encountered a couple of
                                                      defective ones out of the 24 I bought.


                                                      Rob

                                                      On Thu, 8 Sep 2011, N/A wrote:

                                                      > THEY HAVE THEM UDER THE M*** NAME BOUGHT SOME IN 2009.. I WOULD CALL THEM AND ASK WHAT BRAND 8G27 BATTERIES THEY CARRY
                                                      >
                                                      > ----------------------------------------
                                                      > From: "Ken Olum" <kdo@...>
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 9:56 AM
                                                      > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > From: "N/A" <ev@...>
                                                      > Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:02:35 -0500
                                                      >
                                                      > ken look into battery plus in your area .. just make sure u get
                                                      > recent date code batteries
                                                      >
                                                      > If you mean Batteries Plus (batteriesplus.com), they do not seem to
                                                      > carry Deka batteries. On their web site battery finder, I said Sealed
                                                      > Lead Acid and neither Deka nor anything that I recognized as a
                                                      > Deka/EastPenn label was there.
                                                      >
                                                      > Ken
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • Ken Olum
                                                      Personally, I would never use any lead-acid battery in a Solectria unless it was a gel battery (not AGM) made by Deka East Penn Manufacturing. I believe their
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                        Personally, I would never use any lead-acid battery in a Solectria
                                                        unless it was a gel battery (not AGM) made by Deka East Penn
                                                        Manufacturing. I believe their labels are

                                                        Deka
                                                        East Penn
                                                        MK
                                                        Gel-Tech

                                                        There may be others.

                                                        The reason to buy these batteries is that they give 600 cycles at 80%
                                                        depth of discharge. Really. (OK. I don't really know this. What I
                                                        do know is that in broadly mixed use ranging from 0% to 80% discharge
                                                        they really do provide the total amount of energy storage, and thus
                                                        miles traveled, implied by the 600 cycles to 80% rating.)

                                                        Ken
                                                      • ldr214
                                                        You may have done this already but try searching MK batteries that is Deka s most widely distributed label. Google returns many pages. And the price seems
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                          You may have done this already but try searching "MK batteries" that is Deka's most widely distributed label. Google returns many pages. And the price seems variable from high to very high. You'll see more agm's than gels listed but for a AC powered Force the Deka gel will last the longest, per Deka engineering. If properly conditioned and charged.

                                                          Mike R
                                                          97 Force

                                                          Try to find them where you don't pay for shipping lead.

                                                          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, umarc@... wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I can't find any SLA Group 27 batteries on the Batteries Plus Web site
                                                          > today.
                                                          >
                                                          > Elsewhere, I'm finding them available under brands such as Universal
                                                          > Battery and Power Patrol. Are these cheap knock-offs of the Deka/East
                                                          > Penns, or are they substantially the same?
                                                          >
                                                          > I've used UB batteries in UPS's at work, and have encountered a couple of
                                                          > defective ones out of the 24 I bought.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Rob
                                                          >
                                                          > On Thu, 8 Sep 2011, N/A wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > THEY HAVE THEM UDER THE M*** NAME BOUGHT SOME IN 2009.. I WOULD CALL THEM AND ASK WHAT BRAND 8G27 BATTERIES THEY CARRY
                                                          > >
                                                          > > ----------------------------------------
                                                          > > From: "Ken Olum" <kdo@...>
                                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 9:56 AM
                                                          > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Batteries
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > From: "N/A" <ev@...>
                                                          > > Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:02:35 -0500
                                                          > >
                                                          > > ken look into battery plus in your area .. just make sure u get
                                                          > > recent date code batteries
                                                          > >
                                                          > > If you mean Batteries Plus (batteriesplus.com), they do not seem to
                                                          > > carry Deka batteries. On their web site battery finder, I said Sealed
                                                          > > Lead Acid and neither Deka nor anything that I recognized as a
                                                          > > Deka/EastPenn label was there.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Ken
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        • John
                                                          I bought a single battery from SEPbatteries 8g31dtm about 300 but free shipping . Johnnydwa
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                            I bought a single battery from SEPbatteries 8g31dtm about 300 but free shipping .

                                                            Johnnydwa
                                                          • ldr214
                                                            Rob, Don t know if you found batteries yet but on the wrong coast I got a local price for Deka 8G27 of 234.62 each. Might use it for comparison. Makes lithium
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 12, 2011
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                                                              Rob,
                                                              Don't know if you found batteries yet but on the wrong coast I got a local price for Deka 8G27 of 234.62 each. Might use it for comparison.

                                                              Makes lithium a serious alternative.

                                                              Mike R

                                                              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, umarc@... wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Where are folks buying 8G27 batteries these days? I need a new set for my
                                                              > 1992 Force.
                                                              >
                                                              > I suppose it would be expecting too much to find a place in eastern
                                                              > Massachusetts that sells them. The last set I bought in 2002 from a place
                                                              > in Lowell, but they are out of business now.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Rob
                                                              >
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