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Re: Battery Range Drop

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  • m
    Hey Ken and Everyone, Thought I found the problem. I had a slightly stuck front brake caliper. I replaced the caliper/rotor/pads/hose and repacked the bearings
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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      Hey Ken and Everyone,

      Thought I found the problem.
      I had a slightly stuck front brake caliper.
      I replaced the caliper/rotor/pads/hose and repacked the bearings etc.
      I'll do the right side later. No issues there for now.

      I drove my car to work and made it.
      It went slower up the last small hill then usual.
      I checked the batteries before my commute.
      They were all well over 13.5v

      I checked them upon getting to work.

      16 of the batteries were reading 13.05 v or slightly higher.

      3 batteries were lower.

      Rear box (1) 12.85v
      ----------------------
      Front Box (2) 12.75v , 12.30v

      Would all three or the lowest one be the cause ?
    • m
      I am running on 19 - Deka Gel 22nf batteries
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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        I am running on

        19 - Deka Gel 22nf batteries
      • kevin lubot
        That front 12.3 is a cause for worry since its either very out of ballance or doesnt have the same storage as the others now. What does it read after a full
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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          That front 12.3 is a cause for worry since its either very out of ballance or doesnt have the same storage as the others now. What does it read after a full charge and the car has sat off the charger for a few hours?
          If its significantly lower (make sure to check voltage of the battery near the end of charge as well if its in line or higher than the others its near the end of its life now.) If however its not getting fully charged ie its at 13.2 near the end of charge while the others are at 14V (which doesnt seem likely since they were all at 13.5 before leaving) say then you could attempt to bring it up manually with a powersupply or some other method into closer ballance. Id guess though its near the end of life for that battery. Now you have to either find a batter about the same cap as the others (a good used one) or try replacing it and ballancing it back into the pack.
           
          Important information to get is where each battery is at near the end of charge but still charging.. If they are all over the place you may need to ballance the whole pack or its getting near its end of life. Also, how many amp hours did you take out of the pack to get to work?


          ________________________________
          From: m <packratdaddy@...>
          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 8:49 AM
          Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Battery Range Drop


           
          Hey Ken and Everyone,

          Thought I found the problem.
          I had a slightly stuck front brake caliper.
          I replaced the caliper/rotor/pads/hose and repacked the bearings etc.
          I'll do the right side later. No issues there for now.

          I drove my car to work and made it.
          It went slower up the last small hill then usual.
          I checked the batteries before my commute.
          They were all well over 13.5v

          I checked them upon getting to work.

          16 of the batteries were reading 13.05 v or slightly higher.

          3 batteries were lower.

          Rear box (1) 12.85v
          ----------------------
          Front Box (2) 12.75v , 12.30v

          Would all three or the lowest one be the cause ?




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ken Olum
          I agree that your 12.30 may be causing your problem. But please check them under load. Turn on your heater after you arrive and measure battery voltages with
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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            I agree that your 12.30 may be causing your problem. But please check
            them under load. Turn on your heater after you arrive and measure
            battery voltages with it on. Then you'll have a much better idea if
            this battery is causing a problem.

            Ken
          • m
            Darn ! :) I forgot to put the heat on ! I ll test it when I get home tonight. MArk
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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              Darn ! :)

              I forgot to put the heat on !

              I'll test it when I get home tonight.

              MArk

              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Ken Olum <kdo@...> wrote:
              >
              > I agree that your 12.30 may be causing your problem. But please check
              > them under load. Turn on your heater after you arrive and measure
              > battery voltages with it on. Then you'll have a much better idea if
              > this battery is causing a problem.
              >
              > Ken
              >
            • m
              I used 11.38 ah to get to work. I ll try to follow up with more data you brought up.
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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                I used 11.38 ah to get to work.

                I'll try to follow up with more data you brought up.
              • kevin lubot
                thats not sounding too good. Do the heat trick and see how they fare but i think that one is pretty well used up unless its not comig up when charged
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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                  thats not sounding too good. Do the heat trick and see how they fare but i think that one is pretty well used up unless its not comig up when charged (undercharged.) How old is it?



                  ________________________________
                  From: m <packratdaddy@...>
                  To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 10:37 AM
                  Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Battery Range Drop


                   

                  I used 11.38 ah to get to work.

                  I'll try to follow up with more data you brought up.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • m
                  The whole pack is a little over 3 years old -
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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                    The whole pack is a little over 3 years old

                    -
                  • m
                    I checked the batteries fresh off the charger. Most were at 14.00v Even the suspected battery #11 Drove home using 12.00 ah . I then did the load test with the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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                      I checked the batteries fresh off the charger.
                      Most were at 14.00v Even the suspected battery #11

                      Drove home using 12.00 ah .

                      I then did the load test with the heat on.

                      All the batteries averaged 12.40 v

                      Except for the one in the front battery box #11.
                      It was 12.30v on the morning commute check without the heat on.

                      With the heat/load on it was 10.15 v .


                      WHat would happen if I replaced it with a new one ?

                      Change the batteries around ?

                      I'll post a diagram in the files section.
                      It might be there already. I'll check
                    • gjc0@aol.com
                      Dear fellow EVers: I have sold my Solectria Force to another Boisean who will now be driving it to work. I have purchased a Chevy Volt so I am still a smiling
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 13, 2012
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                        Dear fellow EVers:

                        I have sold my Solectria Force to another Boisean who will now be driving it to work.

                        I have purchased a Chevy Volt so I am still a smiling EVer.
                        In six weeks we have driven the Volt 1800 miles on 3 gallons of gas, the rest was electricity at about 4 miles per KWHr.

                        You have been a helpful group over the last seven years that I had my Solectria.
                        I hope I have helped others with my posts.

                        Sincerely,
                        Gary Carlson
                        1992 Solectria Force
                        Idaho License: AMPEATR



                        (New Volt License: BAILOUT)


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Frank John
                        Assuming you do not have a massively poor connection (which would get extremely hot under load) that battery is pooched.  I think your choices are to replace
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 14, 2012
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                          Assuming you do not have a massively poor connection (which would get extremely hot under load) that battery is pooched.  I think your choices are to replace it with a new one (make sure the rest of the pack and it are fully charged when doing so) or remove it from the pack if your controller will handle the lower voltage or try to locate a slightly used one.

                          Or go lithium!

                          good luck,

                           
                          Frank


                          >________________________________
                          > From: m <packratdaddy@...>
                          >To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                          >Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 10:01 PM
                          >Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Battery Range Drop
                          >
                          >

                          >I checked the batteries fresh off the charger.
                          >Most were at 14.00v Even the suspected battery #11
                          >
                          >Drove home using 12.00 ah .
                          >
                          >I then did the load test with the heat on.
                          >
                          >All the batteries averaged 12.40 v
                          >
                          >Except for the one in the front battery box #11.
                          >It was 12.30v on the morning commute check without the heat on.
                          >
                          >With the heat/load on it was 10.15 v .
                          >
                          >WHat would happen if I replaced it with a new one ?
                          >
                          >Change the batteries around ?
                          >
                          >I'll post a diagram in the files section.
                          >It might be there already. I'll check
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ldr214
                          Gary, Enjoy the Chevy. I m hoping you will still lurk around and offer some help to those with the early 90 s Force. I m sure you are enjoying the gritter
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 14, 2012
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                            Gary,
                            Enjoy the Chevy. I'm hoping you will still lurk around and offer some help to those with the early 90's Force.

                            I'm sure you are enjoying the gritter comforts.

                            "Bailout" will look for it if in ID.

                            Mike R
                            97 Force

                            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, gjc0@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear fellow EVers:
                            >
                            > I have sold my Solectria Force to another Boisean who will now be driving it to work.
                            >
                            > I have purchased a Chevy Volt so I am still a smiling EVer.
                            > In six weeks we have driven the Volt 1800 miles on 3 gallons of gas, the rest was electricity at about 4 miles per KWHr.
                            >
                            > You have been a helpful group over the last seven years that I had my Solectria.
                            > I hope I have helped others with my posts.
                            >
                            > Sincerely,
                            > Gary Carlson
                            > 1992 Solectria Force
                            > Idaho License: AMPEATR
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > (New Volt License: BAILOUT)
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • ldr214
                            Mark if the other batteries are getting you the short range you need it seems like a reasonable investment to replace the weak one and continue operating.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 14, 2012
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                              Mark if the other batteries are getting you the short range you need it seems like a reasonable investment to replace the weak one and continue operating. Obviously you will still have a new weakest link or links and that would be good to identify. Hopefully you will have the range you need while staying above the 50% SOC factor.

                              My only addition recommendation would be to evaluate to a deeper discharge to find out if your "bad one" is one of a kind or just the worst of a very weak pack.

                              This is when a active monitoring system is nice.

                              Mike R
                              97 Force



                              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "m" <packratdaddy@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I checked the batteries fresh off the charger.
                              > Most were at 14.00v Even the suspected battery #11
                              >
                              > Drove home using 12.00 ah .
                              >
                              > I then did the load test with the heat on.
                              >
                              > All the batteries averaged 12.40 v
                              >
                              > Except for the one in the front battery box #11.
                              > It was 12.30v on the morning commute check without the heat on.
                              >
                              > With the heat/load on it was 10.15 v .
                              >
                              >
                              > WHat would happen if I replaced it with a new one ?
                              >
                              > Change the batteries around ?
                              >
                              > I'll post a diagram in the files section.
                              > It might be there already. I'll check
                              >
                            • m
                              Would a conductance tester be a good indicator of a deep discharge ? According to the specs, Deka 22nf are rated at 221 cca. If that is a good test what
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 14, 2012
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                                Would a conductance tester be a good indicator of a "deep " discharge ?
                                According to the specs, Deka 22nf are rated at 221 cca.
                                If that is a good test what tester would members recommend ?
                                I had an OTC model that accidentally contacted higher than rated voltage. No fuses.
                                Ideally a Deka replacement would be best it seems.
                                What about a different brand of 22nf gel ?
                                I see a lot of individual deep cycle batteries for sale on Craigslist.
                                I'd like to get 2-3 more years out of this pack. I drive it most of the year. I don't drive it during extreme cold and on salted slush roads. Ultimately would like to go Lithium even with 40 ah cell.
                                Maybe the prices will drop more by then.


                                DEKA 8G22NF Solar Battery (Group 22NF) -
                                Sealed, recombinant battery, Gel type,12 Volt, 50 Ah, C/100 - 57 Ah
                                Weight 38 lbs. Volts 12 Amp-Hour 57 CCA 210
                                Length 9.38 Width 5.5 Height 9.25 Terminals T881 terminal
                              • Ken Olum
                                You already have done a discharge test using your car and the heater and found a bad battery. You don t need a tester. If I recall correctly you ve already
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 15, 2012
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                                  You already have done a discharge test using your car and the heater
                                  and found a bad battery. You don't need a tester.

                                  If I recall correctly you've already put 15K miles in 3 years on this
                                  pack of 19 22NF gels. Even if you replace this battery, it's not
                                  realistic to ask for another 15K miles. It's possible to get 30K
                                  miles on a pack of 13 8G27s, and Gary Carlson got 30K once with 12
                                  8G27s. But even that is more capacity than 19 22NFs.

                                  Maybe you could get 10K more, although 5 years of calendar life is
                                  also a fair amount. If you're trying for that, you should probably
                                  replace your bad battery with a new one of exactly the same thing. I
                                  did once replace an 8G27 that went bad after 16K miles and 1.5 years
                                  and then put 13K more on my pack. If you are just trying to keep
                                  things going a little while you could get away with some different
                                  battery.

                                  It might be wise to do the test you did but keep the heater on for an
                                  hour while monitoring battery voltages. This might uncover additional
                                  bad batteries which would change your calculation of whether to replace
                                  your whole pack. Or perhaps your next bad battery is giving perfectly
                                  good performance now but is going to fail in another 1K miles.
                                  There's really no way to be sure.

                                  Ken
                                • m
                                  I d like to keep this pack going as long as possible. I ll do the longer heat load test. If I could fit the larger group 27 s . Should I do that in the next
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 16, 2012
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                                    I'd like to keep this pack going as long as possible.
                                    I'll do the longer heat load test.

                                    If I could fit the larger group 27's .
                                    Should I do that in the next pack ?
                                    I know the charger would have to be reprogrammed or get a different one.

                                    Thanks much.

                                    Mark
                                  • Ken Olum
                                    From: m Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:48:47 -0000 If I could fit the larger group 27 s . Should I do that in the next pack ? If your
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 16, 2012
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                                      From: "m" <packratdaddy@...>
                                      Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:48:47 -0000

                                      If I could fit the larger group 27's .
                                      Should I do that in the next pack ?

                                      If your current batteries fit tightly in the boxes, then it's unlikely
                                      that a different size is going to work.

                                      I know the charger would have to be reprogrammed or get a different one.

                                      Also your controller would need reprogramming. What kind of charger
                                      and controller do you have?

                                      Ken
                                    • m_sev@juno.com
                                      My understanding of battery capacity is that volts and amp hours trade, so as long as you are fitting the maximum capacity (volume / weight), its all about the
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 16, 2012
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                                        My understanding of battery capacity is that volts and amp hours trade, so as long as you are fitting the maximum capacity (volume / weight), its all about the same, aside from lower i2r losses when using higher voltage. Higher voltage is better as long as there are no inadvertent high voltage related losses, so any new EV brought to market will be relatively HV.

                                        Mark

                                        ---------- Original Message ----------
                                        From: "m" <packratdaddy@...>
                                        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Battery Range Drop
                                        Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:48:47 -0000


                                        I'd like to keep this pack going as long as possible.
                                        I'll do the longer heat load test.

                                        If I could fit the larger group 27's .
                                        Should I do that in the next pack ?
                                        I know the charger would have to be reprogrammed or get a different one.

                                        Thanks much.

                                        Mark




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                                      • m
                                        I replaced the bad battery . I ll test the pack regularly so as to keep track of there declining performance.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 19, 2012
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                                          I replaced the "bad" battery .
                                          I'll test the pack regularly so as to keep track of there declining performance.
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