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Re: [solectria_ev] Lost my third 13th position battery - Force

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  • Ken Olum
    I don t know why it should always be the one position that is failing first, but with 27,000 miles they don t really owe you anything, and it s probably time
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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      I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
      first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
      it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
      more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
      the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
      (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
      condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
      replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.

      Ken
    • Tom Hudson
      Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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        Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
        of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
        thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
        see if this is a known phenomena.

        I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that the most-positive
        battery?

        -Tom

        On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
        >
        > 97 Force
        >
        > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
        > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
        > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they are
        > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
        > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the freeway
        > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
        >
        > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one battery
        > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
        > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until the
        > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
        >
        > Joe
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >

        --
        Thomas Hudson
        http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power& More
        http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • anbausa
        I ve heard of this happening on other vehicles and on other battery chemistries when the pack is air cooled. There tends to be hot spots in the pack and this
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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          I've heard of this happening on other vehicles and on other battery chemistries when the pack is air cooled. There tends to be hot spots in the pack and this is where the batteries usually fail first. It even happens with the NiMH batteries in the RAV4 EV, there are a couple of spots in the pack where modules fail more often than other positions in the string.

          Noel
          evfinder.com

          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
          >
          > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
          > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
          > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
          > see if this is a known phenomena.
          >
          > I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that the most-positive
          > battery?
          >
          > -Tom
          >
          > On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
          > >
          > > 97 Force
          > >
          > > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
          > > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
          > > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they are
          > > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
          > > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the freeway
          > > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
          > >
          > > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one battery
          > > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
          > > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until the
          > > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
          > >
          > > Joe
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Thomas Hudson
          > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power& More
          > http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Wolf
          I would check and see if there is something wrong with the pack track... It might be putting an extra load on the battery keeping it from charging fully during
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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            I would check and see if there is something wrong with the pack track...

            It might be putting an extra load on the battery keeping it from charging
            fully during each charging cycle...

            Can you swap the pack track connections between battery 12 and 13?

            Or measure the impedance of the pack track connections, and see if battery
            13 is much lower than the rest.

            Wolf
            *wags his tail*
            www.wolftronix.com
            On Apr 21, 2011 9:23 AM, "Ken Olum" <kdo@...> wrote:
            > I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
            > first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
            > it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
            > more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
            > the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
            > (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
            > condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
            > replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.
            >
            > Ken


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ldr214
            The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the string and
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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              The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the string and 13 is the most positive.

              I've read a number of articles which discuss this issue in regrads to long strings failing at the ends. Mostly in reference to telcom UPS. Anyhow the conclusion was that it happens but by the time you see this going on it isn't worth the labor to swap them around.

              The weak just keep getting weaker and entire string fails. You either get new batteries or drive according to the weakest link.

              Failures that I've seen have been on batteries that would be in a "hot" position (like 3 & 11). Keeping the pack under 100 degrees takes some effort around here in the summer.

              Lead is still going up in price.

              Mike R
              97 Solectria
              34425 miles
              Greensaver SSW100's 5000 miles





              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
              >
              > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
              > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
              > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
              > see if this is a known phenomena.
              >
              > I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that the most-positive
              > battery?
              >
              > -Tom
              >
              > On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
              > >
              > > 97 Force
              > >
              > > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
              > > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
              > > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they are
              > > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
              > > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the freeway
              > > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
              > >
              > > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one battery
              > > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
              > > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until the
              > > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
              > >
              > > Joe
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Thomas Hudson
              > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power& More
              > http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • chilejose@aol.com
              Thanks Ken Agree, The first time the battery failed I put the new battery in that position but today s 8G27 s are not really as good as the older design. The
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                Thanks Ken

                Agree, The first time the battery failed I put the new battery in that
                position but today's 8G27's are not really as good as the older design. The
                pack batteries all read between 75-80 AH after being in the pack for over 5
                years but the new Deka came to me after fully charging at 80AH. I ran it
                through 6 cycles at 10 miles at it still barely read 78AH ... I sent it back
                and got another one which then I swap positions thinking that might help..

                Joe


                In a message dated 4/21/2011 06:23:37 Pacific Standard Time,
                kdo@... writes:




                I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
                first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
                it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
                more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
                the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
                (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
                condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
                replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.

                Ken




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • chilejose@aol.com
                I do not have the wiring schematic but think the front box string is last and then the 13th position is most negative. I will look for the diagram and
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                  I do not have the wiring schematic but think the front box string is last
                  and then the 13th position is most negative. I will look for the diagram
                  and confirm. I ran the car for about 4000 miles with no issues until the
                  first death of the 13th battery. Ordering a new DEKA and it should be here
                  to begin this adventure next week.

                  Joe


                  In a message dated 4/21/2011 06:32:54 Pacific Standard Time,
                  tdhudson@... writes:




                  Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at
                  least a couple
                  of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read
                  your post, I
                  thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a
                  battery expert and
                  see if this is a known phenomena.

                  I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that
                  the most-positive
                  battery?

                  -Tom

                  On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, _chilejose@..._ (mailto:chilejose@...)
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > 97 Force
                  >
                  > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
                  > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has
                  27M
                  > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they
                  are
                  > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
                  > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the
                  freeway
                  > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
                  >
                  > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one
                  battery
                  > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
                  > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until
                  the
                  > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
                  >
                  > Joe
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Thomas Hudson
                  _http://portev.org_ (http://portev.org/) -- Electric Vehicles, Solar
                  Power& More
                  _http://klanky.com_ (http://klanky.com/) -- Animation Projects

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • chilejose@aol.com
                  Thanks Wolf It makes more sense that something due to charging / draw is the issue. When you say pack track ... do you just mean the cables to the 13th
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                    Thanks Wolf

                    It makes more sense that something due to charging / draw is the issue.
                    When you say pack track ... do you just mean the cables to the 13th battery.
                    Just change both of them?

                    Joe


                    In a message dated 4/21/2011 07:27:27 Pacific Standard Time,
                    wolf@... writes:




                    I would check and see if there is something wrong with the pack track...

                    It might be putting an extra load on the battery keeping it from charging
                    fully during each charging cycle...

                    Can you swap the pack track connections between battery 12 and 13?

                    Or measure the impedance of the pack track connections, and see if battery
                    13 is much lower than the rest.

                    Wolf
                    *wags his tail*
                    www.wolftronix.com
                    On Apr 21, 2011 9:23 AM, "Ken Olum" <_kdo@..._
                    (mailto:kdo@...) > wrote:
                    > I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
                    > first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
                    > it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
                    > more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
                    > the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
                    > (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
                    > condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
                    > replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.
                    >
                    > Ken

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • chilejose@aol.com
                    Great Mike So the #1 battery ( Front passenger) is the MOST negative? Opposite as to what I thought has been communicated previous in some older post. My
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                      Great Mike

                      So the #1 battery ( Front passenger) is the MOST negative? Opposite as to
                      what I thought has been communicated previous in some older post. My bad
                      ..

                      I also saw a few articles about batteries failing at ends thus really
                      thought that was my 13th battery issue. Gues not.

                      I have checked each battery last summer and found them all to be about
                      equal AH's. I will do that again as I install the new battery.

                      Got a lot advice about not doing the battery position swap and do agree
                      that it's a loosing act.

                      The car has been great and have now determined to sell it. I only drive
                      the car to work, 12 miles there then home. I must maintain another car at
                      work since my job causes me to run around 2-3 times a week. It just does
                      not make sense to keep it. The next person might be set up with a better
                      situation to charge at work or even have solar panels at home for FREE
                      electricity.

                      Once I get the new battery, I'll check all of them again, look for some
                      evidence Wolf mentioned on the cables and install the pack. If I do not find
                      something ... The pack still is very strong to drive a few months.

                      Thanks for the help

                      Joe


                      In a message dated 4/21/2011 13:48:25 Pacific Standard Time,
                      replytome@... writes:

                      The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and
                      number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the
                      string and 13 is the most positive.

                      I've read a number of articles which discuss this issue in regrads to long
                      strings failing at the ends. Mostly in reference to telcom UPS. Anyhow the
                      conclusion was that it happens but by the time you see this going on it
                      isn't worth the labor to swap them around.

                      The weak just keep getting weaker and entire string fails. You either get
                      new batteries or drive according to the weakest link.

                      Failures that I've seen have been on batteries that would be in a "hot"
                      position (like 3 & 11). Keeping the pack under 100 degrees takes some effort
                      around here in the summer.

                      Lead is still going up in price.

                      Mike R
                      97 Solectria
                      34425 miles
                      Greensaver SSW100's 5000 miles




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Wolf Packs, Inc.
                      ... I m not surprised the battery in that position is failing first. I think it starts the day with less juice than all the others. It might be progressively
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 22, 2011
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                        > The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the string

                        > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
                        > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
                        > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
                        > see if this is a known phenomena.
                        >

                        I'm not surprised the battery in that position is failing first. I think it starts the day with less juice than all the others. It might be progressively less juice as the years go by. Things are not as sensitive with the lead batteries and 12.5 volts but maybe occasionally manually topping off the #1 battery in a standard Force is a good idea.

                        My BMS reads out to three decimal places and almost every morning the most negative cell in my 48 cell pack (front box, passenger side, #1) is the lowest, reading 3.335 volts or thereabouts. Often it is .02 or .025 volts lower than most of the others. Usually #2 or #3 are the next lowest cells. This happens after the balancing & charging has shut off. I have swapped my best cells into these position twice and get the same result. I checked to see that the readouts are correct and they are. Others on this list suggested it's because the DC/DC converter is always drawing a trickle of juice and it somehow comes out of that end of the string. I put extra wires coming from my three most negative cells to a place under the hood where I can manually top them off. If I don't, my balancer can not compensate enough and I progressively get further from a balanced pack.

                        No recent pictures on the blog, but I'll update it soon with a driving report when I get to 5,000 miles on this pack. Perhaps I'll even make that long promised distance run. I need to find a relatively flat area to get a realistic distance run, everything around here is hilly.

                        http://traildog.blogspot.com/

                        Paul Martin
                        Ashland, Oregon




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • chilejose@aol.com
                        Super suggestion. I ll get the new battery then set up an addition TOP Charge for position 1 and monitor. I might do the first 3 battery as I have small 2.5
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 22, 2011
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                          Super suggestion. I'll get the new battery then set up an addition TOP
                          Charge for position 1 and monitor.

                          I might do the first 3 battery as I have small 2.5 amp 36 volt charger
                          sitting around the garage.

                          I'll report findings

                          Joe


                          In a message dated 4/22/2011 07:52:59 Pacific Standard Time,
                          traildog@... writes:




                          > The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and
                          number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the
                          string

                          > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence
                          at least a couple
                          > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read
                          your post, I
                          > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a
                          battery expert and
                          > see if this is a known phenomena.
                          >

                          I'm not surprised the battery in that position is failing first. I think
                          it starts the day with less juice than all the others. It might be
                          progressively less juice as the years go by. Things are not as sensitive with the
                          lead batteries and 12.5 volts but maybe occasionally manually topping off the
                          #1 battery in a standard Force is a good idea.

                          My BMS reads out to three decimal places and almost every morning the most
                          negative cell in my 48 cell pack (front box, passenger side, #1) is the
                          lowest, reading 3.335 volts or thereabouts. Often it is .02 or .025 volts
                          lower than most of the others. Usually #2 or #3 are the next lowest cells.
                          This happens after the balancing & charging has shut off. I have swapped my
                          best cells into these position twice and get the same result. I checked to
                          see that the readouts are correct and they are. Others on this list suggested
                          it's because the DC/DC converter is always drawing a trickle of juice and
                          it somehow comes out of that end of the string. I put extra wires coming
                          from my three most negative cells to a place under the hood where I can
                          manually top them off. If I don't, my balancer can not compensate enough and I
                          progressively get further from a balanced pack.

                          No recent pictures on the blog, but I'll update it soon with a driving
                          report when I get to 5,000 miles on this pack. Perhaps I'll even make that
                          long promised distance run. I need to find a relatively flat area to get a
                          realistic distance run, everything around here is hilly.

                          _http://traildog.blogspot.com/_ (http://traildog.blogspot.com/)

                          Paul Martin
                          Ashland, Oregon

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Wolf Packs, Inc.
                          ... Joe, I m still a novice at all this battery stuff, but with 12V batteries in the front box I doubt the 2nd and 3rd batteries will show much of a decrease
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 23, 2011
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                            >
                            > I'll get the new battery then set up an addition TOP
                            > Charge for position 1 and monitor.
                            >
                            > I might do the first 3 battery as I have small 2.5 amp 36 volt charger
                            > sitting around the garage.

                            Joe, I'm still a novice at all this battery stuff, but with 12V batteries in the front box I doubt the 2nd and 3rd batteries will show much of a decrease in voltage overnight or over the weekend. With 3.2V cells it is noticeable on the adjacent cells. I don't know if your 36 volt charger would be hard on the #2 and #3 batteries if they were already at full charge.

                            If I had a timer that could handle the 11 ~ 12 amps I'd just set my car to start charging at 2 am and the trickle drain would not be a factor. I see a 20 amp timer for $35 so that might be an easy solution. http://www.amazon.com/Time-Clock-Intermatic-110V-20Amp/dp/B003ZHB3QU Any thoughts from those of you who use a timer if this timer will melt from 5 hours of nightly use?

                            Paul Martin
                            Ashland, Oregon
                            1997 Force with 48 100Ah Lithium
                            110V Zivan NG3 charger
                          • theoldcars@aol.com
                            Hello Noel Yes your correct. The failures in the RAV4 EV are all do to poor cooling in the tray. The modules nearest the fans have the best cooling and the
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 27, 2011
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                              Hello Noel

                              Yes your correct.

                              The failures in the RAV4 EV are all do to poor cooling in the tray. The
                              modules nearest the fans have the best cooling and the modules in the last row
                              run warmer. All the air entering the tray exits out through the center of
                              the modules. The modules farther from the fans do not get the benefit of
                              the air passing over them the first two rows have. Also the air passing over
                              the first two rows is heated by the modules. So the third row from the fans
                              receives the least amount of air and it is also then the warmest air in
                              the pack. Cooling is critical for long life with NiMH batteries and over time
                              slight differences take their toll.

                              It usually takes at least 50,000 miles before this becomes noticeable or
                              causes a module to fail. Depending on how the pack is taken care of and
                              conditions it is used under a pack can still last as much as 120,000 to 150,000
                              miles.

                              Don


                              In a message dated 4/21/2011 7:37:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                              evfinder@... writes:

                              I've heard of this happening on other vehicles and on other battery
                              chemistries when the pack is air cooled. There tends to be hot spots in the pack
                              and this is where the batteries usually fail first. It even happens with
                              the NiMH batteries in the RAV4 EV, there are a couple of spots in the pack
                              where modules fail more often than other positions in the string.

                              Noel
                              evfinder.com

                              --- In _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                              , Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence
                              at least a couple
                              > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read
                              your post, I
                              > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a
                              battery expert and
                              > see if this is a known phenomena.
                              >
                              > I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that
                              the most-positive
                              > battery?
                              >
                              > -Tom
                              >
                              > On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
                              > >
                              > > 97 Force
                              > >
                              > > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
                              > > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car
                              has 27M
                              > > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as
                              they are
                              > > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
                              > > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on
                              the freeway
                              > > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
                              > >
                              > > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one
                              battery
                              > > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
                              > > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until
                              the
                              > > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
                              > >
                              > > Joe



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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